English clubs give 2 year notice to withdraw from Heineken European Cup

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18403809

The governing body of England's top rugby union clubs has given notice of its intention to pull out of the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup.
The move comes amid disagreements over how the competitions are organised.
Recent Heineken Cup winners

French clubs have also threatened to withdraw, but as two years' notice has to be given the move is perceived as an attempt to force others to negotiate.
"We hope that there will now be an urgent dialogue," said Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty.
In May, Leinster beat Ulster 42-14 in the Heineken Cup final to retain the trophy.
Premiership Rugby's intention to exit the competition will affect such top English sides as Northampton, Saracens, Gloucester, Bath, Harlequins, Leicester and London Irish, all of whom competed in the 2011-12 tournament.
McCafferty added that he hopes discussions can commence soon regarding "the future of European cup rugby, including qualification, competition formats and ambition to expand into new markets".
The governing body's notice period extends to the end of the 2013-14 event, at which point they say they will exit the competitions.

To be fair the Enlgish and French are the bigger markets and revenue providers they probably should get a bigger slice of the pie

A competition involving English and French clubs wouldn't have half the appeal of the HEC.

Nope but the would have the financial clout to make South Africa a lucrative offer to join them in a competition. That would cause a major interest within the rugby. By the first year of that competition the English and French sides would be in a similar financial boat but Scottish and Welsh rugby would be on it's knees.

If the Celtic countries pulled out of the 6N then Welsh and Scottish rugby would be bankrupt within a short space of time and Italian rugby wouldn't be far behind. No 6N and no HEC would leave the Welsh and Scottish in dire need of funding and it wouldn't be to rosey for the Irish either. Also note that the RFU takes the money from the 6N not the clubs.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

A competition involving English and French clubs wouldn't have half the appeal of the HEC.

Nope but the would have the financial clout to make South Africa a lucrative offer to join them in a competition. That would cause a major interest within the rugby. By the first year of that competition the English and French sides would be in a similar financial boat but Scottish and Welsh rugby would be on it's knees.

If the Celtic countries pulled out of the 6N then Welsh and Scottish rugby would be bankrupt within a short space of time and Italian rugby wouldn't be far behind. No 6N and no HEC would leave the Welsh and Scottish in dire need of funding and it wouldn't be to rosey for the Irish either. Also note that the RFU takes the money from the 6N not the clubs.

And that would e a good outcome how exactly, Sam? I know that's not what you are proposing, but you are right that it is one possible end outcome if the brinkmanship gets taken too far. I'm all for enlarging the pot for the participants provided it contributes to the expansion of rugby around the globe, but I have considerably less sympathy for those that wish to simply increase their own share and might be prepared to shoot for the catastrophic outcome that you outline above

As actually that was me pointing out to Profitius that the Celtic Nations pulling out of the 6N is an impossibility for them. The last thing I'd want to see is the 6N ruined, I love that tournament. I like the HEC as well but I can see the logic for repositioning it as a competition and upgrading the Amlin, the introduction of a third tier is also a must in my eyes.

No one wants to see anyone go broke (to my mind that would be a disaster), there needs to be an agreement where everyone can make money and the quality of rugby can be improved. No one knows the sure fire way to achieve this but the English and French clubs certainly feel the current way is not beneficial to them. However, any Rabo fans that think their unions can pull out or threaten to pull out of any competitions and be taken seriously as a threat by the English and the French would be naive. Money talks and currently the money is behind the Anglo/French proposal.

Here's a thought - if the AP teams pulled out, the RFU would still have their allocated slots - so what's stopping them sticking in teams from the Championship?

It's theoretically possible (if I've got it right about the HC being about UNIONS not Clubs)

TrailApe wrote:Here's a thought - if the AP teams pulled out, the RFU would still have their allocated slots - so what's stopping them sticking in teams from the Championship?

It's theoretically possible (if I've got it right about the HC being about UNIONS not Clubs)

TA, very true, but probably not financially appealing enough?

There is such a convergence of discussion between this article and Heineken Cup - what should it represent?

So I'll just re-paste from there


Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:Apart from maintaining the status quo, I struggle to understand the majority preference for the inclusiveness of the 6N closed shop HC format as opposed to an elite competition.

The second tier Amlin is there as a development competition, and can be strengthened to become more meaningful.

Financially, the split of money is a commercial negotiation so a union/country could get the same share of the collective whether its teams play in HC or Amlin.

What are the benefits of including average quality teams in the HC?



Agreed Dubbya,

It's analogous to supporting a EU dictat that suggests that BT, Deutsche Telekom and France Telecom should have exclusive rights to monopolise the entire European phone market.

Also the PRL own's half the share of the English share of the ERC. So they could still demand money even if not in it! (I think ). What would have to happen is a completely new thing put together, which may or may not include the RFU and championship clubs.

HammerofThunor wrote:Also the PRL own's half the share of the English share of the ERC. So they could still demand money even if not in it! (I think ). What would have to happen is a completely new thing put together, which may or may not include the RFU and championship clubs.

Wonder if the RFU are regretting give half their share in ERC to PRL?!

If they hadn't this would've happened already. I think that the English system (part ownership between the RFU and the PRL) is the right way. A bit different for those teams who're owned by the union but the Welsh regions are getting shafted (IMO). Which may be why two of them are apparantly backing the changes (although that has never been substaniated).

I have a feeling they would be the Ospreys and Cardiff

I think that RFU have only loaned PRL their half share in ERC and it may be up for review when the current Accord expires (about now). I'm open to correction on that, though.

RFU have aligned the B&I Cup windows with the ERC ones as of next season, so theoretically Championship clubs could seamlessly swap B&I for HC/Amlin. I'm sure that hasn't gone unnoticed by PRL.

As for the relative reliance of income from 6N and ERC, the facts from IRFU are (from http://www.irishrugby.ie/save/the_facts.php )

"...although the Irish TV market contributes only €5 million pa to the central pot (c.€3m to the Six Nations pot and c.€2 million to the ERC pot), the other TV markets contribute much more, and the IRFU therefore receives €16 million each year from the central pot (c.€11m from Six Nations and c.€5m from ERC)"

So it seems that English and French viewers subsidise Irish rugby to 3 times its televisual worth (or did in 2010) - it's fair to assume that it's a similar proportion currently and for the other celtic nations. The bargaining strength lies in England and France, weakened only by disharmony within and between the countries.

Portnoy

Wow that's an interesting stat Dubbya. No wonder the IRFU has so little trouble keeping their big names in Ireland as that is a major cash injection. It would be interesting to see if we could get hold of a breakdown for the entire pot to see to what level the subsidising is and who is contributing what.

Wonder if the RFU are regretting give half their share in ERC to PRL?!

As, I'd imagine that the RFU had little choice in the matter as the PRL would have no doubt refused to enter without some given control over the competition and a direct stream of income from it. Let's face it the RFU are bumbling fools and you wouldn't trust them to look after and fairly distribute the money to the clubs would you?

This whole thing is about Mark McCafferty trying to protect the PRA. He is trying to sell a premier product that's losing it's gloss. It would actually suit his cause for the English clubs to withdraw from a competition where they aren't shining, to make the AP the pre-eminent product for English fans.

The French are probably in a similar boat, and an Anglo/French Cup would provide a diversion for the fans that would guarantee late stage participation.

There is no doubt that the withdrawal of the English and French from the HEC would be bad for the club and national game in general but since when has PRL or the T14 been worried about the wider game? If the Celtic nations have any sense they will ensure the HEC finals for the next two years are Anglo-French affairs - that will make it hard for McCafferty to argue his case for withdrawal.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:I think that RFU have only loaned PRL their half share in ERC and it may be up for review when the current Accord expires (about now). I'm open to correction on that, though.

No idea.

Interesting to have the figures on the TV (although that was in June 2010 it seems and there may well be more Irish viewers now Leinster have gone on to win a couple more cups and Ulster are approaching the top again.

gowales wrote:I have a feeling they would be the Ospreys and Cardiff

The two who probably remember their own rebel days

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18409108 wrote:Robson told BBC Northampton: "If you look at English and French sides, we've got strong Premiership competitions.

Use accessible player and disable flyout menus"The RaboDirect Pro12 is arguably less strong and every club qualifies. That doesn't appear to be very fair."

"What's more, if you were to look at what happens in the RaboDirect Pro12 competition and analyse the players that teams put out, the squads are able to rotate and take breaks in that competition, to some degree," added Robson.

"Teams can rest key players, so for a Heineken Cup match they draft in stronger players and they're fresh. They've largely played less than the English players so it makes it a tougher competition for us.

"We can look at the qualification process, the format of the competition - and not just for the Heineken Cup, [but] the Amlin Cup too.

"Ourselves and the French have served notice that we want to come out of the competition in its current format and we would like to start discussing the format of a different competition. But, ostensibly, it's the Heineken Cup and top European sides."

Just looking at the ERC rankings, if it were just the top 24 teams that got in then Sale, Castres, Treviso, Racing Mero, Monpellier, Exeter, and Italian No2 would be ditched. And Stade Francais, Wasps, USAP, Bath, Brive, Gloucester, and London Irish would be in. So again the Rabo Teams get gifted entry agruement that is supposedly the reason for this issue is nonsence.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

A competition involving English and French clubs wouldn't have half the appeal of the HEC.

Nope but the would have the financial clout to make South Africa a lucrative offer to join them in a competition. That would cause a major interest within the rugby. By the first year of that competition the English and French sides would be in a similar financial boat but Scottish and Welsh rugby would be on it's knees.

If the Celtic countries pulled out of the 6N then Welsh and Scottish rugby would be bankrupt within a short space of time and Italian rugby wouldn't be far behind. No 6N and no HEC would leave the Welsh and Scottish in dire need of funding and it wouldn't be to rosey for the Irish either. Also note that the RFU takes the money from the 6N not the clubs.

Theres one massive flaw with that plan: South African jumping ship. Not going to happen or it already would have happened. They see themselves as a Southern Hemisphere country and want to stay there.

The Rabo league would be the main competition then and that means crowds, sponsorship and TV money would grow very quickly. Smaller squads would be needed by the Rabo sides so that would cut down on expenses too. They'd have to take a backwards step but after some reorganising, things would move forward again.

Another point not many people are making regards the French clubs. They're very wealthy so the money is less important to them. I don't think Toulouse would be in favour of rocking the HEC boat too much.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:I think that RFU have only loaned PRL their half share in ERC and it may be up for review when the current Accord expires (about now). I'm open to correction on that, though.

RFU have aligned the B&I Cup windows with the ERC ones as of next season, so theoretically Championship clubs could seamlessly swap B&I for HC/Amlin. I'm sure that hasn't gone unnoticed by PRL.

As for the relative reliance of income from 6N and ERC, the facts from IRFU are (from http://www.irishrugby.ie/save/the_facts.php )

"...although the Irish TV market contributes only €5 million pa to the central pot (c.€3m to the Six Nations pot and c.€2 million to the ERC pot), the other TV markets contribute much more, and the IRFU therefore receives €16 million each year from the central pot (c.€11m from Six Nations and c.€5m from ERC)"

So it seems that English and French viewers subsidise Irish rugby to 3 times its televisual worth (or did in 2010) - it's fair to assume that it's a similar proportion currently and for the other celtic nations. The bargaining strength lies in England and France, weakened only by disharmony within and between the countries.

Portnoy

Its not as simple as that. Sky want the rights for the HEC because they know they'll get loads of Irish people subscribing to sky sports to watch it. If theres no HEC then a lot of people who have no interest in foreign premiership soccer with unsubscribe to sky sports. Things like that have to be taken into account too.

The IRFU didn't want the HEC matches on free to air TV because they'd get a lot less money mainly because they're getting well paid from Sky who in turn are making a nice profit on Irish people paying for Sky sports just to watch HEC rugby. The IRFU wanted people to pay for sky sports so they could cream off a certain (small) percentage of the money.

The Rabo league would be the main competition then and that means crowds, sponsorship and TV money would grow very quickly

Why would this all happen? - of the RABO league, only the Irish Provinces are getting decent crowds and I cannot see your average Englishman or Frenchman paying good money to watch Leinster vs Ulster - or Zebra's vs Dragons - I certainly won't, so what Media Mogul is going to invest ££££ in a product that has a very limited audience?

Granted if the Italians ever buy into Rugby in a big way the balance of power might shift - but then if that happens the same thing would happen again - the big bucks brought in by the Italians being shared out amongst the other Unions - how long would that last?

Listen, we are not talking about fairness, integrity, skill or anything like that - we are talking cash here, the English and the French Clubs percieve they are being short-changed and are holding out their bowl and asking for more.

they'll get loads of Irish people subscribing to sky sports to watch it.

If everysingle Irish household bought Sky twice, it still would come no where near generating the revenue that Sky get from the English and French. I'll stress again, this is all about audiences and where the media folk think they'll get their moula.

TrailApe wrote:
Why would this all happen? - of the RABO league, only the Irish Provinces are getting decent crowds and I cannot see your average Englishman or Frenchman paying good money to watch Leinster vs Ulster - or Zebra's vs Dragons - I certainly won't, so what Media Mogul is going to invest ££££ in a product that has a very limited audience?

It would definitely happen because the Rabo would be the main competition and get more exposure. Theres no doubting that. Its already a competition thats growing every year. Connachts attendances have tripled in 2 seasons for instance.

If everysingle Irish household bought Sky twice, it still would come no where near generating the revenue that Sky get from the English and French. I'll stress again, this is all about audiences and where the media folk think they'll get their moula.

You're missing one of my main point though. English people are paying for Sky sports to watch the soccer. A greater percentage of Irish people are paying for it to watch the Irish rugby teams.

Of course when you pay for sky sports you're really paying for premiership soccer. Thats the bigger issue here IMO. If there was a dedicated rugby channel it would be a lot cheaper and the teams would get more money but thats a different issue.

Profitius there will never be a dedicated rugby channel. There's not the audience to make it profitable or the coverage to fill all the time slots. Even if there was you'd find that the English and French would still provide a far greater demand for the product than the Rabo countries. It comes down to simple weight of numbers with Italy being the only population able to distort the picture but are unlikely to do so.

Dubbelyew L Overate has shown you the figures. Irish rugby takes far more than it provides from the tv deals. There's not going to be the tripling of tv revenue you'd need to replicate the income you'd lose.

Everyone wants to keep the HEC just expect the qualification levels to change and the Amlin to take on greater prominance. I'd also like to point out the Amlin is a cack 'development' competition at the minute and the suggested reshuffle would make it an interesting tournament and the introduction of a subsidised third tier would provide a proper development competition and actually do something to develop rugby in Europe.

profitus,

This is a key point.

What does it matter if 5% more Irish watch their rugby than in England? That is not the question. As most cash is generated via the TV, it's the viewing figures that generate the advertising which in turn generate the broadcasters' bids for a five-year contract.

Trouble is that Ireland is about a tenth of the population of England.

What do you suspect would happen to HEC broadcasting bids if England (let alone France) dropped out?

There would be a core TV interest but the financial loss would be disastrous for both sides.

An accommodation will be reached, but like it or not, I suspect that the Anglo-French cash potential will win out.

My guess at a compromise might be one guaranteed team per nation from the Rabo and the next top two.

A fudge.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Dubbelyew L Overate has shown you the figures. Irish rugby takes far more than it provides from the tv deals.

I don't like to see that being painted as the Irish stealing money that's not theirs. English people don't just watch English teams and completely ignore all others. It's not that simple. I'm sure the likes of Leinster get big viewing figures in England too. They're the best side in Europe. The Irish population is much smaller and provides less revenue. But I'd say the Irish rugby sides draw a big TV audience outside Ireland too. Their viewing figures are probably far bigger than the number of Sky Sports subscriptions in Ireland. That's why the IRFU take in more money than the Irish viewing public pays out. It's not just Irish people watching Irish teams.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Dubbelyew L Overate has shown you the figures. Irish rugby takes far more than it provides from the tv deals.

I don't like to see that being painted as the Irish stealing money that's not theirs. English people don't just watch English teams and completely ignore all others. It's not that simple. I'm sure the likes of Leinster get big viewing figures in England too. They're the best side in Europe. The Irish population is much smaller and provides less revenue. But I'd say the Irish rugby sides draw a big TV audience outside Ireland too. Their viewing figures are probably far bigger than the number of Sky Sports subscriptions in Ireland. That's why the IRFU take in more money than the Irish viewing public pays out. It's not just Irish people watching Irish teams.

ye this is true...there is a reason why leinster and munster are never on the red button

Feckless Rogue wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Dubbelyew L Overate has shown you the figures. Irish rugby takes far more than it provides from the tv deals.

I don't like to see that being painted as the Irish stealing money that's not theirs. English people don't just watch English teams and completely ignore all others. It's not that simple. I'm sure the likes of Leinster get big viewing figures in England too. They're the best side in Europe. The Irish population is much smaller and provides less revenue. But I'd say the Irish rugby sides draw a big TV audience outside Ireland too. Their viewing figures are probably far bigger than the number of Sky Sports subscriptions in Ireland. That's why the IRFU take in more money than the Irish viewing public pays out. It's not just Irish people watching Irish teams.

I detect in your tone that you suspect that Ireland will provide championship sides for years to come FR.

All you need to do is convince the hard-headed TV negotiators that 5m punters will subscribe to compensate for 90m lost potentially lost ones.

In a way it's not England/France that Irish supporters should have a beef with - rather more the Scots and Welsh who free-ride on the back of the BBC.

I don't like to see that being painted as the Irish stealing money that's not theirs. English people don't just watch English teams and completely ignore all others. It's not that simple

Feckless that's not what I was getting at, I was pointing out the flaw in Profitius' logic that if the Rabo became the major competition revenue would be replenished over time by additional spectators, tv deals and sponsors linked to that.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Dubbelyew L Overate has shown you the figures. Irish rugby takes far more than it provides from the tv deals.

I don't like to see that being painted as the Irish stealing money that's not theirs. English people don't just watch English teams and completely ignore all others. It's not that simple. I'm sure the likes of Leinster get big viewing figures in England too. They're the best side in Europe. The Irish population is much smaller and provides less revenue. But I'd say the Irish rugby sides draw a big TV audience outside Ireland too. Their viewing figures are probably far bigger than the number of Sky Sports subscriptions in Ireland. That's why the IRFU take in more money than the Irish viewing public pays out. It's not just Irish people watching Irish teams.

I'd watch Leinster if I had Sky but I wouldn't get Sky to watch Leinster if you follow me. There's a significant difference there, especially from the point of view of broadcasters. The IRFU gets more than it generates because of the way the system was set up, not because the Irish are the best sides at the moment. The IRFU aren't stealling money that isn't theirs, they're getting what was agreed by all parties that they should get. However the agreement is becoming null and void and will need to be renegotiated.

I might e-mail that link to the IRFU document to the PRL. A union document that suggests the IRFU are pretty pleased with themselves for getting more money in TV revenue than they generate may help the PRL in the renegotiations (IRFU get 2.5 times the amount of Irish generated revenue and that money is paid out for rugby and soccer subscribers are irrelevant).

I'm sure the likes of Leinster get big viewing figures in England too.

As mentioned before - for the purists perhaps, but for the brain dead mindless morons out there (I'm not pointing at any particular sport here - but I'm sure you can gues) there has to be a hook that draws them in.

And Rugby is a niche sport and is riding on the back of footie - bit like those fish that stick onto the bellies of sharks (errr - analogy bit inverted but you know what I mean).

If the media companies think that they might keep an extra 10% of the footie watchers on their channel for half an hour more (and thus exposed to more adverts) by having two mediocre English teams - say Falcons and Wasps plodging about producing stodgy rugby they'll do it. Your average fan in England is very tribal and needs somebody to cheer for, a bunch of Welsh, Irish, Italian or Scottish teams won't draw them in - believe me - I know these people.

And the sad thing is, given a choice to watch Tigers vs Quinns in the premiership final or Charlton Athletic vs Plymouth Argyl in the fourth round of the Fred Dibna's Shed Cup, its the footie every time.

And the Broadcasters know this. They will follow the masses because thats where the money is. It's not fair, but there you have it.

Did you know that there are companies out there that count the 'air-time' that each Brand's logo or name gets? The money in sport advertising is ridiculous and cares nothing about the quality of the product that is carrying their adverts, just the number of hits it makes on the screen. So count up the English and French potential viewers and then compare them to everybody else. Where do you think the money will go?

TrailApe wrote:

I'm sure the likes of Leinster get big viewing figures in England too.

As mentioned before - for the purists perhaps, but for the brain dead mindless morons out there (I'm not pointing at any particular sport here - but I'm sure you can gues) there has to be a hook that draws them in.

And Rugby is a niche sport and is riding on the back of footie - bit like those fish that stick onto the bellies of sharks (errr - analogy bit inverted but you know what I mean).

If the media companies think that they might keep an extra 10% of the footie watchers on their channel for half an hour more (and thus exposed to more adverts) by having two mediocre English teams - say Falcons and Wasps plodging about producing stodgy rugby they'll do it. Your average fan in England is very tribal and needs somebody to cheer for, a bunch of Welsh, Irish, Italian or Scottish teams won't draw them in - believe me - I know these people.

And the sad thing is, given a choice to watch Tigers vs Quinns in the premiership final or Charlton Athletic vs Plymouth Argyl in the fourth round of the Fred Dibna's Shed Cup, its the footie every time.

And the Broadcasters know this. They will follow the masses because thats where the money is. It's not fair, but there you have it.

Did you know that there are companies out there that count the 'air-time' that each Brand's logo or name gets? The money in sport advertising is ridiculous and cares nothing about the quality of the product that is carrying their adverts, just the number of hits it makes on the screen. So count up the English and French potential viewers and then compare them to everybody else. Where do you think the money will go?

So true, and just makes you want to weep

One thing that nobody has considered is can the English and French clubs set up an Anglo-French tournament.

To do so it would have to be sanctioned by the IRB, who's northern Hemp unions would be mostly losing out and surly not go for it.

If England and France went ahead without this sanction, they would be kicked out of the 6 nations and Rugby world cup.

Could they really manage without these.

England and France may be able to boss about money at club level, But Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy, have more Votes at IRB level.

"The Executive Council is composed of 28 members. Sixteen of the members come from the eight "foundation unions," each of which has two seats: Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and France. Four unions have one seat each: Argentina, Canada, Italy and Japan. The six regional associations representing Europe, North America and the West Indies, South America, Africa, Asia and Oceania also have one seat each. Additionally, the Chairman and Vice Chairman each have one vote. The Executive Council meets twice a year."


I'd say that if non European Unions stayed neutral then it would never allow a Anglo- Welsh cup.


This would leave pretty must the 3 leagues standing alone, never playing the other teams in Europe, it wouldn't be long before the French and English want to recreate a European league.

As,

So true, and just makes you want to weep

Why do you split your time and living arrangements in different locations?

My bet is because it's financially beneficial.

Rugby is a tiny sport compared with football and I guess the broadcasters only make the same judgement as you.

Kingshu wrote:One thing that nobody has considered is can the English and French clubs set up an Anglo-French tournament.

To do so it would have to be sanctioned by the IRB, who's northern Hemp unions would be mostly losing out and surly not go for it.

If England and France went ahead without this sanction, they would be kicked out of the 6 nations and Rugby world cup.

Could they really manage without these.

England and France may be able to boss about money at club level, But Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy, have more Votes at IRB level.

"The Executive Council is composed of 28 members. Sixteen of the members come from the eight "foundation unions," each of which has two seats: Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and France. Four unions have one seat each: Argentina, Canada, Italy and Japan. The six regional associations representing Europe, North America and the West Indies, South America, Africa, Asia and Oceania also have one seat each. Additionally, the Chairman and Vice Chairman each have one vote. The Executive Council meets twice a year."


I'd say that if non European Unions stayed neutral then it would never allow a Anglo- Welsh cup.


This would leave pretty must the 3 leagues standing alone, never playing the other teams in Europe, it wouldn't be long before the French and English want to recreate a European league.

Bullish KIngshu,

To do so it would have to be sanctioned by the IRB, who's northern Hemp unions would be mostly losing out and surly not go for it.

Is this an assertion or a fact?

Portnoy wrote:As,

So true, and just makes you want to weep

Why do you split your time and living arrangements in different locations?

My bet is because it's financially beneficial.

Rugby is a tiny sport compared with football and I guess the broadcasters only make the same judgement as you.

Partly. My work used to be solely London-based. Then I met a Devon lass and wanted a home in the west country. Two other small people appeared. A work opportunity came about that sees me spend some work time in Amsterdam, some in London. Then my eldest was nearing the end of her schooling in London, so I had no wish to disrupt that, so left family here and commuted.... and on it goes. Life is just complicated sometimes, and we make the best of it. My main motivation is simply trying to do what is best for the kids

Portnoy wrote:

Kingshu wrote:One thing that nobody has considered is can the English and French clubs set up an Anglo-French tournament.

To do so it would have to be sanctioned by the IRB, who's northern Hemp unions would be mostly losing out and surly not go for it.

If England and France went ahead without this sanction, they would be kicked out of the 6 nations and Rugby world cup.

Could they really manage without these.

England and France may be able to boss about money at club level, But Ireland, Scotland, Wales and Italy, have more Votes at IRB level.

"The Executive Council is composed of 28 members. Sixteen of the members come from the eight "foundation unions," each of which has two seats: Scotland, Ireland, Wales, England, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and France. Four unions have one seat each: Argentina, Canada, Italy and Japan. The six regional associations representing Europe, North America and the West Indies, South America, Africa, Asia and Oceania also have one seat each. Additionally, the Chairman and Vice Chairman each have one vote. The Executive Council meets twice a year."


I'd say that if non European Unions stayed neutral then it would never allow a Anglo- Welsh cup.


This would leave pretty must the 3 leagues standing alone, never playing the other teams in Europe, it wouldn't be long before the French and English want to recreate a European league.

Bullish KIngshu,

To do so it would have to be sanctioned by the IRB, who's northern Hemp unions would be mostly losing out and surly not go for it.

Is this an assertion or a fact?

It's true IRB have to sanction tournaments, so forget an Anglo-French cup (money spinner)

Compare it to football, Scotland have wanted to create an Scottish-Dutch league/north atlantic league for years, but Uefa, have told them they aren't allowed an dwould be kicked out of all Uefa comps, as well as their national teams.

The organisation is the same in rugby, replace UEFA with IRB.

fifa irb
erc eufa
Kh?

I was curious about the necessity of sanctioning an Anglo-French competition by the IRB so I looked it up.

Regulation 16.2.7 states that Council consent is needed for National Representative tournaments (Internationals and A teams), but only CEO consent for other tournaments (such as an Anglo-French club competition).

Now, the IRB CEO position is currently vacant, following the retirement of Irishman Mike Miller, although another Irishman is currently acting CEO. Yet another Irishman, Peter Boyle, has recently resigned from the IRB interview panel for the new CEO, accusing the IRB chairman, Bernard Lapasset (a Frenchman) of lying in a letter to candidates and stating that the process is fundamentally flawed ( http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/165369.html ).

Is the plot thickening?

Kingshu wrote:One thing that nobody has considered is can the English and French clubs set up an Anglo-French tournament.

To do so it would have to be sanctioned by the IRB, who's northern Hemp unions would be mostly losing out and surly not go for it.

If England and France went ahead without this sanction, they would be kicked out of the 6 nations and Rugby world cup.

The relationship between the English clubs and the RFU is a pretty delicate truce, from what I understand of it that is a situation the French Union would love to get on half as well with their own clubs - they were threatening legal action over how the French Union acted over the vote. They might not see setting up an unsanctioned Anglo-French competition as an issue and possibly even a bonus if it makes life harder for their unions.
Of course, if the Celtic nations and Italy kicked France and England out of the 6Ns then they better have plans already in place to go back to the amateur game, otherwise they're all likely to go into bankruptcy soon afterwards.

snoopster wrote:

Kingshu wrote:One thing that nobody has considered is can the English and French clubs set up an Anglo-French tournament.

To do so it would have to be sanctioned by the IRB, who's northern Hemp unions would be mostly losing out and surly not go for it.

If England and France went ahead without this sanction, they would be kicked out of the 6 nations and Rugby world cup.

The relationship between the English clubs and the RFU is a pretty delicate truce, from what I understand of it that is a situation the French Union would love to get on half as well with their own clubs - they were threatening legal action over how the French Union acted over the vote. They might not see setting up an unsanctioned Anglo-French competition as an issue and possibly even a bonus if it makes life harder for their unions.
Of course, if the Celtic nations and Italy kicked France and England out of the 6Ns then they better have plans already in place to go back to the amateur game, otherwise they're all likely to go into bankruptcy soon afterwards.

All together to hell on a hand-cart.

Breezing through this thread, it seems definitive that rugby is on the verge of self extinction. But that last sentence isn't the only exaggeration on this thread. I'll add in some more;

- The wealth of the multi-billionaire sugar daddies is being eroded and they are putting pressure back on clubs to keep themselves self sufficient. A lot of people are losing serious money in the last couple of years, billionaires are becoming multi-millionaires and a multi-millionaire is less likely to sink 0.5-1million quid a year into a club each and every year.
- English and French clubs are struggling financially to meet the costs of running their teams and are looking around at where they might get more money to keep themselves afloat.
- The novelty of top flight european competition is playing sides you might not have seen before, the uncertainty of going up against teams from nations that you don't have regular viewing of their games/styles. The chance to reward the fans of successful sides with a trip to somewhere different for a competitive game (in terms of competition if not opposition) in getting away to Italy, Galway, etc.
- An Anglo-French cup would mean a higher probability of playing teams from your own country, but that is what the domestic league and other domestic cup competitions are for.
- There seems to be an assumption that revenues in each country from the HCup are solely created due to that nations clubs involvement. I think that is a slightly flawed viewpoint. Sky is a profit making machine. When you look at heineken cup weekends, the ads, the clips, the promotions it is all geared to gain the greatest viewing numbers to increase the money demanded from advertising revenues. Granted most of bums on seats will be in the english and french markets, but the casual watcher in those markets (the person who isn't supporting one of the two teams playing in the game) watches the game with the best skill, the most pleasing play and the better storyline. It comes to a head on the final weekend of the group, when the two final games in the group kickoff at the same time. Munster, Leinster, Ulster, Connacht all got prime billing on the main channel (no red button relegation). This can purely be down to Sky knowing what will get eyes on the box, and give their advertisers more market penetration. I guess what I'm trying to say in a roundabout way, is that while the non English/French sides have the smaller individual markets, the teams from those lesser unions drive the ratings in England/France.
- Some of the larger clubs that are making noise in this debate strike me as sides that have drifted away from being local sides to sides chasing the marquee signing and need to argue for the pot to be reallocated in order to (i) get more money to lure in the big signing and (ii) leave less behind in the pot for other sides to compete for that same signing.

I can't see anyone being kicked out of the 6 Nations. In fact, in Ireland's case at least, the international game accounts for about 80% of their revenue. The test team already subsidizes the provinces. So I'd say the Irish could actually survive without the HC. But they'd be immediately in big financial trouble without the 6 Nations.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

A competition involving English and French clubs wouldn't have half the appeal of the HEC.

Nope but the would have the financial clout to make South Africa a lucrative offer to join them in a competition. That would cause a major interest within the rugby. By the first year of that competition the English and French sides would be in a similar financial boat but Scottish and Welsh rugby would be on it's knees.

If the Celtic countries pulled out of the 6N then Welsh and Scottish rugby would be bankrupt within a short space of time and Italian rugby wouldn't be far behind. No 6N and no HEC would leave the Welsh and Scottish in dire need of funding and it wouldn't be to rosey for the Irish either. Also note that the RFU takes the money from the 6N not the clubs.

So what you are saying is that without the French and the English the Celts would go bust. This is very arrogant of you to say the least. You do realise that the WRU are now making money hand over fist and the only revenue they had from England and France was the two games in which they played them as all other monies comes from contributions from each nations marketing potential, you think that only the British, Irish and French watch the six nations ? Also we do not play the English or the French outside the six nations bar a world cup every four years and that isn't a given. If England and France wants to pull out of the six nations then let them, the whole history of the tournament is why it is watched as a spectacle around the world not because of France and England. I suggest you take a look at this link:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-18351251

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Sky would never take on the Rabo, there's minimal interest from the majority of its viewers (English) in a low quality league.

If the English/French pulled out they'd form an alternative competition that Sky would no doubt take on.

Actually for many years Sky tried to get the rights to the Welsh league and have bid for the Magners, the biggest problem is the WRU wanted rugby to go on terrestrial television so it was available to all. Who can forget England getting thrown out of the 6 nations because the celtic countries wanted rugby on terestrial while the english union wanted the extra money.

Who won in the end? England lost the extra money, which was given to the other 4 nations, and were forced to negotiate the next tv deal as one.


I think looking at most of the points being raised, though I think everyone is over looking the fact that the celts have less profesisonal teams so need a lot less money, they wont go bankrupt without the heinaken cup they could also make up for the shortfall in money by playing an extra set of games against domestic teams. Imagine if the European pool games were replaced by a new Irish or Welsh domestic cup? the Welsh fans moan that dont have enough derbies, yet a new competition with us playing the 3 other welsh regions home and away would be a lot of fun. I'd b happy to see that replace the heinaken cup and the attendences at welsh regions would be much higher.

Sky are not stupid they wont pay the same amount if less countries are involved.
If Wales Ireland Scotland and Italy are not involved Sky know that they will lose a lot of subscribers from these nations and could very well find that a lot of English and French fans would find the rugby competitions being devalued,

For the record it's called the BBC (British), not English. Even the Welsh language channel S4C has now been merged into the BBC also. Welsh, Scottish and English Tv license payers money all go to the same place.

You can't seperate the viewing audiences under those circumstances.

"If you look at English and French sides, we've got strong Premiership competitions. "The RaboDirect Pro12 is arguably less strong and every club qualifies. That doesn't appear to be very fair."

"What's more, if you were to look at what happens in the RaboDirect Pro12 competition and analyse the players that teams put out, the squads are able to rotate and take breaks in that competition, to some degree,"

"Teams can rest key players, so for a Heineken Cup match they draft in stronger players and they're fresh. They've largely played less than the English players so it makes it a tougher competition for us.

"We can look at the qualification process, the format of the competition - and not just for the Heineken Cup, [but] the Amlin Cup too.

"Ourselves and the French have served notice that we want to come out of the competition in its current format and we would like to start discussing the format of a different competition. But, ostensibly, it's the Heineken Cup and top European sides."

Couldnt agree with this more (taken from Saints Chief Allan Robson). I, and many others, have been saying that for some time now the deck has been stacked too unfavourably against the English with regards European Club competition. The reasons have been identified precisely above. Im glad to say the action taken and hope the French follow us in our stance. Change is needed. Lets make the Heineken Cup a fair, equal and balanced competition!

Damn you boys are going on and on about this. Make it work both ways and drop your salary cap to match the welsh regions too then....

Of course there is another option re Sky - they have 4 channels 24/7 to fill with sport of some form or another, given that we accept the sums involved in both paying for rugby coverage and for viewing are minute compared to their main sport I think they'd be happy to continue showing some form of ERC without England and France and would probably bid for any form of Anglo/French Cup as well.
Given they are a hard nosed bunch I bet they'll would offer only what England and France are getting at present as a proportion of the ERC money and they'd offer the RABO teams a similar amount or more likely a bit less.
In this scenario no-one wins, the Rabo teams get less and the Anglo/French will get the same amount to spread around more teams.

Did you not get banned sheephead?

No why?