English clubs give 2 year notice to withdraw from Heineken European Cup

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18403809

The governing body of England's top rugby union clubs has given notice of its intention to pull out of the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup.
The move comes amid disagreements over how the competitions are organised.
Recent Heineken Cup winners

French clubs have also threatened to withdraw, but as two years' notice has to be given the move is perceived as an attempt to force others to negotiate.
"We hope that there will now be an urgent dialogue," said Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty.
In May, Leinster beat Ulster 42-14 in the Heineken Cup final to retain the trophy.
Premiership Rugby's intention to exit the competition will affect such top English sides as Northampton, Saracens, Gloucester, Bath, Harlequins, Leicester and London Irish, all of whom competed in the 2011-12 tournament.
McCafferty added that he hopes discussions can commence soon regarding "the future of European cup rugby, including qualification, competition formats and ambition to expand into new markets".
The governing body's notice period extends to the end of the 2013-14 event, at which point they say they will exit the competitions.

biltong I'm disappointed you think we are being aggressive, but from our point of view the PRL are being very aggressive trying to bully the rest of us into accepting changes they want implemented - that is how we see it anyway.

Cymroglan wrote:

biltongbek wrote:The reason I am not deleting his post is because the reaction from the non premiership supporters have been very agressive, and as you can see I reprimanded him immediately.

Preventing this to explode into a free for all.

I am not responsible for what others say.

True, does chidish, tantrum, pathetic ring a bell?

(posted this when the french put in their notice)

I honestly think their could be big changes in 2014 but NOT for the good.
from all the press and forum articals ive seen, the noises from the mainly french and english clubs ( rumour of 2 welsh clubs want change? ) everything seems to hinge on the italy and scotland being willing to sacrifice 1 or maybe 2 spots in the top teir each and place the other in the amlin, which i would think would come with less revenue and less tv coverage. why would they vote for that?.

This seems to come down to the issue that the amlin cup is still not strong enough or lucrative enough considering you still get cricket scores between teams and some top teams do put out what could be considered a B team, also the sky coverage of the cup is dire, the fact that the changes they made by putting the best runners up from the heini into the amlin hasn't made a difference, so the french and the english clubs want the pro 12 to put more teams in to the amlin which could be both clubs from italy and scotland, since the changes they made last time to strengthen the amlin hasn't worked who's to say it will work this time, if the tv coverage and revenue from the amlin doesn't increase then the italians and scottish teams will suffer heavily.

The scottish teams are only now starting to make progress and atleast treviso are doing well and will only get better, to take away the incentive of playing the top teams in europe could see the unions reverting back to there own leagues and demanding equal representation with france and england which means fewer places for english and french clubs in the top teir.

Also for the clubs that say the heini places should be on league position and it shouldn't matter what country a team is from the SRU have stated the LV cup only involves welsh and english clubs, so does it mean that the LV will be open to other clubs from france, scotland and ireland? and what about the french joining the B&I cup.

The last time the PRL threatened a boycott of the competition the RFU came out and said '' we do have another 12 clubs '' , championship sides would probably give anything to be involved and theres always the PRO D2 with some very strong teams in it if the TOP 14 do follow the PRL.

Cymroglan wrote:

nathan wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:biltongbek
Because it's the truth and if you cant see it then that's your problem.
Childish threats just to try and get their own way.

Please don't pass your opinion as fact. In fact your whole attitude in your post shows how silly your being.

Tell me why it's being done now then and not when English sides were dominating?
If you think I'm being silly then fine but I also believe you are being extremely naive if you think they are pulling out for any other reason

The fact that the English sides aren't getting semi-final gate takings probably contributes a little Cymro, but fundamentally I think it's finances - in 2006 they probably (given how most other sports forecast their TV revenues back in the days of "no more boom and bust!) expected that the TV revenues would increase every time they came up for renewal. All of a sudden their belts are a lot tighter (remember only 4 Prem clubs make money currently) so they're looking at what they can do to help the books.

Also remember the French moved first, for their own reasons - which are much more domestic focused. Had France stayed put it's likely England would have too.

Yes and I stand by them, Do you class that as a personal attack ?

Cymroglan Muppet now that's a personal attack.
When you moderate well I let you know but I will also let you know that I expect better.

Artful_Dodger wrote:biltong I'm disappointed you think we are being aggressive, but from our point of view the PRL are being very aggressive trying to bully the rest of us into accepting changes they want implemented - that is how we see it anyway.

Artful, read through these posts as a neutral, then you'll see the natural trend of the posts.

There is no forgiveness, empathy or any understanding for their poiint of view.

Only allegations which much of is pure conjecture.

words like pathetic, childish, tantrums, don't let the door hit you on the way out, you're doing it for the money, ir is because they haven't won the competition etc.

We have the exact same scenario with SANZAR and the Super XV, I have complained about the situation before, and at every negotation SARU is unhappy and have also threatened to remove themselves out of the equation.

Not once did I have to hear a Kiwi or Ozzie supporter call us any one of those descriptions. The situation was discussed in a level headed way.

Cymroglan wrote:Yes and I stand by them, Do you class that as a personal attack ?

Cymroglan Muppet now that's a personal attack.
When you moderate well I let you know but I will also let you know that I expect better.

Cymro, read my answer to artful dodger.

And I said agressive, not personal.

Read mine to you... I said personal

This is a two edged sword I think.

1) It will be good for the Celtic league if they have to reform - top six qualify - it will make a better league.

2) It won't make any difference to Europe. Leinster more or less won the league with a second team, though they did lose that we final at the end.

I don't think either England or France would leave without the other. Either they'll both leave, expand their respective leagues and set up an Anglo-French cup, or more likely they'll get a small improvement on the current terms and the competitions will continue with perhaps a few minor tweaks.

If they both leave it would be very bad news for the other countries. The financial model they all work to would be rendered completely obsolete and they would have to come up with a way of expanding the Rabo (or equivalent) on and off the pitch. This scenario wouldn't really affect the English or French financially, but I think all fans would rather see their teams in the HC than an Anglo-French cup, purely for the variety and excitement this competition provides.

Saying "good riddance" is very naive in my view. It wont turn out well for anyone.

Cymroglan wrote:

nathan wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:biltongbek
Because it's the truth and if you cant see it then that's your problem.
Childish threats just to try and get their own way.

Please don't pass your opinion as fact. In fact your whole attitude in your post shows how silly your being.

Tell me why it's being done now then and not when English sides were dominating?
If you think I'm being silly then fine but I also believe you are being extremely naive if you think they are pulling out for any other reason

Why not now? So your saying they can only serve notice if they've won else it's only because they've lost. I'm sorry, but that's being narrow minded.

I'll give you my opinion as to why supporters of the RABO12 don't like it. If England/France team's do leave, that's a hell of a lot less money for the RABO12 teams, not all of them have brilliant finances as it stands. B. If England/France teams do stay and there's an alteration for the qualifications rules (i.e. 6 from each) then some of the RABO12 team's won't qualify and will lose money.

It's a lose/lose situation for you guys.

So you could say RABO supporters are only concerned with the money coming in and not the actual competition itself

You did not read the question .... Why leave when you are not winning?

jeffwinger wrote:I don't think either England or France would leave without the other. Either they'll both leave, expand their respective leagues and set up an Anglo-French cup, or more likely they'll get a small improvement on the current terms and the competitions will continue with perhaps a few minor tweaks.

If they both leave it would be very bad news for the other countries. The financial model they all work to would be rendered completely obsolete and they would have to come up with a way of expanding the Rabo (or equivalent) on and off the pitch. This scenario wouldn't really affect the English or French financially, but I think all fans would rather see their teams in the HC than an Anglo-French cup, purely for the variety and excitement this competition provides.

Saying "good riddance" is very naive in my view. It wont turn out well for anyone.

There's nothing stopping the English and French including other countries if they left. Which i believe is one thing they want to change with 2nd tier EC

jeffwinger wrote:I don't think either England or France would leave without the other. Either they'll both leave, expand their respective leagues and set up an Anglo-French cup, or more likely they'll get a small improvement on the current terms and the competitions will continue with perhaps a few minor tweaks.

If they both leave it would be very bad news for the other countries. The financial model they all work to would be rendered completely obsolete and they would have to come up with a way of expanding the Rabo (or equivalent) on and off the pitch. This scenario wouldn't really affect the English or French financially, but I think all fans would rather see their teams in the HC than an Anglo-French cup, purely for the variety and excitement this competition provides.

Saying "good riddance" is very naive in my view. It wont turn out well for anyone.

Spot on jeffwinger.

It will become a devalued cup when the best sides are not involved in it.

I agree with Biltong here, some of the comments are really overly aggressive if you read them from a neutral viewpoint. Interesting also that all the criticism seems to be directed at England, and very little at France (who after all, have done the exact same thing)... Comments like "good riddance" make me sad, as the HC is the very pinnacle of NH club rugby, and without English clubs this would no longer be the case.

Moving on, it would be pretty much the end of the HC (at least for a few years) if the English and the French were to leave, which in turn would leave the Rabo teams in a massive financial mess I think. Having said that, it wouldn't be great either for English and French clubs (though financially they'd do alright). I just hope an arrangement can be reached, for the good of NH rugby...

Cymroglan wrote:It will become a devalued cup when the best sides are not involved in it.

So does this mean the RABO is devalued as the Italians are in it?

as for the question "why now?" I believe the current arrangement runs out in 2014, which is 2 years from now? And two years is the notice that needs to be served in this case...

nathan wrote:

Cymroglan wrote:It will become a devalued cup when the best sides are not involved in it.

So does this mean the RABO is devalued as the Italians are in it?

What ? You do realise I said best teams surely you would know that they are the Irish sides.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:as for the question "why now?" I believe the current arrangement runs out in 2014, which is 2 years from now? And two years is the notice that needs to be served in this case...

Exactly.

Im afraid the so called aggressive nature of our replies is a natural reaction to a bully trying to throw his weight around.

Look him in the eye, call his bluff, ignore his threats and see how quickly he backs down, but we certainly won't go crying ...

'please dont go, we'll give you whatever you want and bow down to your whims....'

Sorry if this seems cold and aggressive, but if they don't want to play under, what I regard, is a fair and balanced system, then let them go!

AlynDavies wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:I'll add, England and France are in a similar position to South Africa in SANZAR - SA brings in much more of the revenue for Super Rugby than NZ and Aus do, but NZ and Aus tend to have similar opinions to each other, and therefore dominate the voting.

So what your saying is we kick the English out and let the South Africans join?
Well it could work!

Resists urge to make Saracens joke...

So it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the Irish sides are dominating the competition.

Of course it's to do with Irish sides dominating the competition. It's politics - if English teams were winning it they wouldn't be complaining at all. But generally they're doing awful so they will inevitably complain.

Whether their complaints are valid or what's up for debate, though.

I'm just pointing out that "by the book" this was exactly the right time to do this (two years notice on an arrangement which terminates in 2014). I think too many people here are too willing to stick the boot into England, sorry.

Not sure I agree with this decision. Regardless of whether the HEC is fair it is a vital testing ground for our players

logie28 wrote:Im afraid the so called aggressive nature of our replies is a natural reaction to a bully trying to throw his weight around.

Look him in the eye, call his bluff, ignore his threats and see how quickly he backs down, but we certainly won't go crying ...

'please dont go, we'll give you whatever you want and bow down to your whims....'

Sorry if this seems cold and aggressive, but if they don't want to play under, what I regard, is a fair and balanced system, then let them go!

Logie, that is however not the point of negotiations. If Ireland, Wales, scotland and the Italian Unions go in with that attitude of calling their "bluff" and england and France walkout, how will the other unions survive financially.

You may think it is that easy, but financing professional rugby takes a lot of money, which is currently subsidised by england and france veiwership and markets.

Hence They need them to stay. It will be a negotiation like any other, give a little here and take a little there. Ultimately it will not be good for european rugby if the HC falls aaway. It has histroy, tradition and has been the pinnacle of european rugby for some time.

England and France however if they decide it is not a bluff, will come out of this with at least the finances in tact and whatever format the decide on, money will only have to be split between them and nobody else.

Cymroglan wrote:So it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the Irish sides are dominating the competition.

Honestly Cymro, there's possibly a little of that. But IMO that's much less important than the financial aspects.

The French and English might well mention their view of "fairness" (ie the teams entered per competition rather than per country) but that's ultimately a sop to gloss over the money aspect.

biltong the voice of reason

I'm not sure people realise how much the Rabo relies on the HC financially. They need the HC to survive, and for that it needs English or French clubs. Hence the Rabo clubs will negotiate. So will the English and French, because they also know they'd be worse off (from a competitive rugby viewpoint rather than a financial one) without the HC.

If an agreement between parties runs out, and two of said parties say they would like to renegotiate the terms, you don't just say "stuff that, we're happy with how it is, take it or leave it" especially when the two parties in question are the strongest financially.

And if you think that England and France can work together you will be in for a huge surprise.
Both will want to be top dog and neither will give way it will cause them to implode
Things will start off well but the coalition will deteriorate quite quickly.

I think this is a sensible move from the Premiership and I'd be quite happy to see us walk away from the HC unless changes are made.

How a team who finished near the bottom of a generally not great quality league can play in the premier European competition just belittles that completion.

Placings should be split between the top finishers of each league.

England and France will work together reasonably well on this one I think, because they share the same interests. In fact I'm mildly surprised France haven't come in for as much stick as England on here

Suppose it's kind of like a strike

Cymroglan wrote:And if you think that England and France can work together you will be in for a huge surprise.
Both will want to be top dog and neither will give way it will cause them to implode
Things will start off well but the coalition will deteriorate quite quickly.

The reality of the situation is the unions will negotiate, so chances are very slim that there will be a split, the repercussion of the european unions havinga fall out is more far reaching than you can imagine, it could even end up with the six nations tournament suffering because of this, and where will that leave france and england then.

so it is but a mere negotiation.

Suppose it's kind of like a strike - I really don't like strikes but I can see why some people would think they are acceptable

english and french clubs are perfectly entitled to put there notice in just as the other unions would be.

the way i see the vote going tho would probably be SRU= 2, Italian= 2 and IRFU= 2 as they where fundamental in bringing in the Italian sides into the pro 12 and doubt they would vote against them as there just trying to build there teams from scratch =6 votes

WRU= 1 vote would the welsh union vote against the other unions? regions= 1 vote, rumour that 2 welsh clubs backing the change?

french union= 1 vote clubs= 1 vote
RFU= 1 vote PRL= 1 vote

so even if the WRU and regions vote with the french and english thats 6 votes to 6, if its like every other board then chairman has casting vote and must vote with the status quo.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think this is a sensible move from the Premiership and I'd be quite happy to see us walk away from the HC unless changes are made.

How a team who finished near the bottom of a generally not great quality league can play in the premier European competition just belittles that completion.

Placings should be split between the top finishers of each league.

Not a great quality league? Are you having a laugh...Theres a lot better quality rugby being played in the rabbo than in the AP

I doubt the English and French clubs would do this if they hadn't concluded the Rabo clubs have more to lose than they do. If the English and French clubs are sensible they'll open negotiations with the South African clubs about a 3 way tournament to further ratchet up the pressure.

This has been coming for a while. I predict the English and French clubs will get some of what they are asking for.

DaveM wrote:I doubt the English and French clubs would do this if they hadn't concluded the Rabo clubs have more to lose than they do. If the English and French clubs are sensible they'll open negotiations with the South African clubs about a 3 way tournament to further ratchet up the pressure.

This has been coming for a while. I predict the English and French clubs will get some of what they are asking for.

This. The financial implications of the French and English clubs leaving the HC would be absolutely disastrous for the Rabo.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think this is a sensible move from the Premiership and I'd be quite happy to see us walk away from the HC unless changes are made.

How a team who finished near the bottom of a generally not great quality league can play in the premier European competition just belittles that completion.

Placings should be split between the top finishers of each league.

Not a great quality league? Are you having a laugh...Theres a lot better quality rugby being played in the rabbo than in the AP

While I'm not a fan of apportioning places purely by league, LF4L, there's plenty of dross being played in both leagues, as well as some good stuff.

And they get their way and still don't win the cup , what will they want next.

I disagree.

The rotation policy utilised by the majority of Rabo teams throughout most of the season borders on an A league or reserve.

I'm sure you'd see a better standard of rugby being played in the Rabo if teams actually played for something (ie a HC spot)

The best league nonsense has been done to death,,, We like the league the side we support is in.

Yes i agree it just upsets me when i hear the english saying their league is at a higher standard than the rabbo when both are great leagues

biltongbek wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:biltong I'm disappointed you think we are being aggressive, but from our point of view the PRL are being very aggressive trying to bully the rest of us into accepting changes they want implemented - that is how we see it anyway.

Artful, read through these posts as a neutral, then you'll see the natural trend of the posts.

There is no forgiveness, empathy or any understanding for their poiint of view.

Only allegations which much of is pure conjecture.

words like pathetic, childish, tantrums, don't let the door hit you on the way out, you're doing it for the money, ir is because they haven't won the competition etc.

We have the exact same scenario with SANZAR and the Super XV, I have complained about the situation before, and at every negotation SARU is unhappy and have also threatened to remove themselves out of the equation.

Not once did I have to hear a Kiwi or Ozzie supporter call us any one of those descriptions. The situation was discussed in a level headed way.

It isn't the exact same.

For me there are a few points to note here.

Its not just the Rabo teams that would lose financially, the English teams would also as does anyone really believe a business as sharp as SKY would still pay big money for a tournament that excludes the Irish sides and would therefore be viewed as 2nd class.

Renegotiating any contract in professional sport is essential for the growth and development of the sport.

Adding qualification on a league position basis would be a massive boost to the Rabo and would help to build the league as a credible competition.

Why should any Nation have a garanteed 100% inclusion in the competition for all its teams regardles of how strong or weak those teams are.

So for me the renegotiation of this agreement is nothing more than the evolution of the game to bring it up to date, would Italian rugby suffer from potentially wining a group in the Amlin compared to been eliminated with 5 or 6 defeats in the Heinekin? I actually believe it could have the opposite effect.
I personally dont believe the complaints have anything to do with Leinsters dominance but are more aimed at Edinbrugh's decision to ignore the Rabo and focus on Europe as they knew they would auomatically be back in the tournament next year, the real disrespect issue here is not with the English Premiership clubs, it lies closer to home in the Rabo.

I'd love to know how their big name overseas signings would react if they told them they weren't playing Heineken Cup! And if the decision went ahead to pull out, good luck attracting the overseas talent for a few years!

Complete childish nonsense!

I have read every post on here and seriously you really have go to laugh. Biltong, it is natural that if anybody feels they are being threatened they will look to strike back, so for you to have a go at people for being annoyed at the RFU for trying to make other unions change their system is a bit unfair. Also, the only worry I have, is if the French and English pull out of the HC then I do not think Sky with all their spondulicks will touch it with a barge pole, they would however look for something to "fill the void" left by the HC and what could they fill it with, hmmm let me think, they leave one rugby competition and need another one to fill it with, they would then set their sights on the Rabbo as it covers four different countries and we would then all end up having to pay through our noses to watch our clubs on tele. This would then leave sky in a strong position to have the monopoly on all British and Irish rugby and it would then only be a matter of time before they start eyeing up the six nations, world cup and autumn internationals, they already have the summer tours and super rugby. The thing is how much money would they throw at the Rabbo ? I know now that between BBC Wales and S4C each region gets the equivalent of 10,000 people actually at the game in revenue for each game.

Sky would never take on the Rabo, there's minimal interest from the majority of its viewers (English) in a low quality league.

If the English/French pulled out they'd form an alternative competition that Sky would no doubt take on.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Sky would never take on the Rabo, there's minimal interest from the majority of its viewers (English) in a low quality league.

If the English/French pulled out they'd form an alternative competition that Sky would no doubt take on.

Sgt_Pooly, you are such an arrogant ......., why do you see the Rabbo as a low quality league ? It obviously is not. Four grand slams in seven years between Wales and Ireland plus the Irish teams dominating the HC and Edinborugh getting to the semi's this year, but all this from a low quality league, also the Cardiff Blues won the Amlin a few years back. Just give it a rest will you. Both our leagues has it's cons and plusses, but you seem hellbent on just causing more friction. You are giving the rest of the English supporters a bad name. Thank god thay are not all like you.