English clubs give 2 year notice to withdraw from Heineken European Cup

First topic message reminder :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18403809

The governing body of England's top rugby union clubs has given notice of its intention to pull out of the Heineken Cup and Amlin Challenge Cup.
The move comes amid disagreements over how the competitions are organised.
Recent Heineken Cup winners

French clubs have also threatened to withdraw, but as two years' notice has to be given the move is perceived as an attempt to force others to negotiate.
"We hope that there will now be an urgent dialogue," said Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty.
In May, Leinster beat Ulster 42-14 in the Heineken Cup final to retain the trophy.
Premiership Rugby's intention to exit the competition will affect such top English sides as Northampton, Saracens, Gloucester, Bath, Harlequins, Leicester and London Irish, all of whom competed in the 2011-12 tournament.
McCafferty added that he hopes discussions can commence soon regarding "the future of European cup rugby, including qualification, competition formats and ambition to expand into new markets".
The governing body's notice period extends to the end of the 2013-14 event, at which point they say they will exit the competitions.

Oh i just thought you got banned for the comments you made during the ospreys leinster game

For a day or two yes. Are you surprised I'm posting or something ?

No just thought it was a lifetime ban

Why would it have been worth a lifetime ban? I made a comment about fans throwing projectiles at players.

Im not even gonna get into that

Every time Wales get a Grand Slam it's the death of northern hemisphere rugby. Now that the English clubs can't keep up with Leinster the competition isn't fair. I'm sorry I thought it was 15 men vs 15 men. It's like moaning that the All Blacks are too good and it's all because of the way they do things down south. Why don't the english clubs just learn how to beat Leinster instead?

Throwing the rattle out of the pram lads 'n' lasses!

So you were expecting a lifetime ban then?

Maybe the English and French teams should only have three teams in the competition and if one of these teams win the HC they can have an extra team like the Irish or Welsh teams. What a rubbish excuse, as stated by sheephead the English and French teams have bigger budgets than Scotland, Wales and Italy, not sure about the Irish.

"If you look at English and French sides, we've got strong Premiership competitions. "The RaboDirect Pro12 is arguably less strong and every club qualifies. That doesn't appear to be very fair."

"What's more, if you were to look at what happens in the RaboDirect Pro12 competition and analyse the players that teams put out, the squads are able to rotate and take breaks in that competition, to some degree,"

"Teams can rest key players, so for a Heineken Cup match they draft in stronger players and they're fresh. They've largely played less than the English players so it makes it a tougher competition for us.

"We can look at the qualification process, the format of the competition - and not just for the Heineken Cup, [but] the Amlin Cup too.

"Ourselves and the French have served notice that we want to come out of the competition in its current format and we would like to start discussing the format of a different competition. But, ostensibly, it's the Heineken Cup and top European sides."

These are, of course, the thoughts of Allan robson - Saints Chief. But they sum up pretty precisely what I think and have been saying for some time now. Which would be people prefair - a balanced, equal and fair sporting club competition in the NH or one which favours certain countries? In its current format I feel winning it is tainted.

Glam; nah I think the Irish may be a pretty hefty cap. They have other perks i.e tax rebates ( good on them if it keeps their best)

What suggestions are the english and french unions making to make the HC far?

Rabo teams qualification based on league positions. Think they want the ERC to deal with clubs instead of the unions, less teams in the comp and more money for England and France? Can't see how it makes it fair mind??

Did i deserve a life ban then leinster?

Gordy wrote:"If you look at English and French sides, we've got strong Premiership competitions. "The RaboDirect Pro12 is arguably less strong and every club qualifies. That doesn't appear to be very fair."

"What's more, if you were to look at what happens in the RaboDirect Pro12 competition and analyse the players that teams put out, the squads are able to rotate and take breaks in that competition, to some degree,"

"Teams can rest key players, so for a Heineken Cup match they draft in stronger players and they're fresh. They've largely played less than the English players so it makes it a tougher competition for us.

"We can look at the qualification process, the format of the competition - and not just for the Heineken Cup, [but] the Amlin Cup too.

"Ourselves and the French have served notice that we want to come out of the competition in its current format and we would like to start discussing the format of a different competition. But, ostensibly, it's the Heineken Cup and top European sides."

These are, of course, the thoughts of Allan robson - Saints Chief. But they sum up pretty precisely what I think and have been saying for some time now. Which would be people prefair - a balanced, equal and fair sporting club competition in the NH or one which favours certain countries? In its current format I feel winning it is tainted.

Doubt you'd be saying that if your club was winning it, Gordy?

On an intersting note - ESPN hae lost their Permier League contract with effect from 2013 making rugby their main sport - how will this affect things ?

Gordy, you posted exactly the same comments on the original Heino discussion thread - was it honestly worth a repeat?

Mods, any chance you could merge the threads pls?

Aaaaaaaargh, FFS, how long is this going to go on for ? Some of the English posters on here really need to grow up, also since France have made noises about this the whole of England have started chirping. Do you see us Welsh grizzling because we cannot win the HC ? It will not be long before they start moaning that the national side cannot win anything because we have an unfair advantage with our league.......... Oh wait a minute....... FFS sake grow up. Why don't they look closer to home and try and do what us celts are doing and try and reduce the amount of substandard foreigners in their sides and try and evoke a new ethos in to their rugby that you must not try to prevent yourself from loosing but you must try to win instead, encourage players to take risks, make going against the grain a way of life, not a rule that must be obeyed, tell players to play off the cuff and embrace the game with both hands. I am sick to death with all this bull about unfair advantage due to our leagues and how our union chooses to put teams forward. Why should we have to change ?

This is the latest one

https://www.606v2.com/t30808-english-clubs-give-2-year-notice-to-withdraw-from-heineken-european-cup

What happens if an english club wins the HC This year and next year will they still want to change it?

They'll probably say they are the only ones entering teams worth watching and therefore deserve a bigger slice of the pie.

sheephead wrote:They'll probably say they are the only ones entering teams worth watching and therefore deserve a bigger slice of the pie.

They would wouldn't they! This is all very reminiscent of the 6N Sky deal debacle. Call their bluff says I!

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

sheephead wrote:They'll probably say they are the only ones entering teams worth watching and therefore deserve a bigger slice of the pie.

They would wouldn't they! This is all very reminiscent of the 6N Sky deal debacle. Call their bluff says I!

Please do

HammerofThunor wrote:

Totallybiasedscarlet wrote:

sheephead wrote:They'll probably say they are the only ones entering teams worth watching and therefore deserve a bigger slice of the pie.

They would wouldn't they! This is all very reminiscent of the 6N Sky deal debacle. Call their bluff says I!

Please do

If it was up to me I would. Rattle chucking babies! Just cos the irish keep beating ya. Buzz off then.

sheephead wrote:They'll probably say they are the only ones entering teams worth watching and therefore deserve a bigger slice of the pie.

I think it's more that they believe that they generate more of the revenue and therefore should have bigger slice of the pie.

I'm really looking forward to the Anglo-French cup on ESPN for the 14/15 season. If they're dropping their soccer rights they'll be able to put it into the new competition. No more Barnes and Morris! Yay

HammerofThunor wrote: No more Barnes and Morris! Yay

Best thing I've ever seen you post! What a pair of !

I thought this was quite good

Re: Tom Rees has retired
by HammerofThunor on Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:25 am

Not really surprised but gutted for him.

I just really don't want these clubs to drive the future structure of the game. Obviously all they care about is their own self interest and not necessarily what's good for European rugby. There are only 6 countries that play rugby to a decent standard and take it seriously. And Italy and Scotland are borderline.

And the fact is there are two giants, England and France, and three very small Celtic nations, and a rugby community in northern Italy that is tiny. We don't want to see the greed and self interest of English/French clubs use a huge financial advantage to gobble up all the best players from everywhere else, and kill pro rugby in the smaller nations. Like I said, there are only 6 of us as it is.

In fact I'd even go further and say the weakest teams in the competition should get a bit more of the money pot to help them develop. Just like in the American sports where the weakest sides get the first pick in the draft. The overall health of the game is more important than the bank accounts and ego's of big club owners. We should play and try to win for local glory, not for more money to buy more legions of expensive foreign mercenaries.

I think it's brilliant the way teams from small nations like New Zealand, Ireland and Wales can be very successful in rugby and money and numbers is not the deciding factor. Talent is. These club owners want to make money the deciding factor. Like in football. As far as I can tell, killing pro rugby in the small nations would suit them just fine. It would just mean they could win more and sell themselves as the best.

The only thing more remarkable about the pure greed of the English clubs is the amount of holes in their arguments about the relative strengths of the Rabo and the English Premiership and French Top 14. I have found the quality of rugby in the French league to be dreadful this season. Outside perhaps Toulouse, Clermont and in patches Toulon, the high standards set over the past decade has really fallen. While the EPL is moaning about the Celtic league (Italian clubs aren't celtic someone might inform them), what about about the obscene amounts of money the French clubs are spending? Surely they should have their wage strutters capped to make sure they are on a level playing field with everyone else if we are truly going to construct a league based on 'fairness'.

When English clubs were dominating in Europe the great strength of the league was week-in, week-out intensity and physicality that men they were better prepared for titanic Heineken matches. This was alluded to by Lawrence Dallaglio directly after Wasps last victory in the tournament. Now the very same conditions are a weakness? It doesn't make sense. Have they not looked at the brand of rugby that formerly the best French teams and now Leinster (and their brand is not an accurate reflection of the rest of the league) are playing and think that the dirge produced in Europe might not just cut it at a higher level where brains are needed more than English (and inferior foreign mercenary) brawn?

As for Edinburgh getting to the semi, that is a total misnomer. Didn't Northampton get to the semi final in 2007 whilst getting relegated? I don't remember anyone complaining then.

The position of the EPL is utter hypocrisy from top to bottom. The only thing I see any value in is having qualification from the Rabo based on league standings. But I do not for one second believe that would change how teams go about selecting 'weakened sides'.

I do apologise Hammer - maybe I was being a bit over zealous earlier It would be a shame to lose the HC cup, but I don't think the Celtic nations should allow themselves to be bullied by the RFU & French here, just as they didn't with the 6N sky malarkey. If the english and french think they should get a bigger slice of the pie it would appear to be the latest "We're better than you" message from them. We should stand our ground just on that issue alone. The HC gives a vibrant mix of rugby cultures. If the english clubs want to slug it out with the considerably richer french clubs and only them then so be it. Perhaps we can embrace the rest of europe and start bringing the other nations through. I reckon we'll still keep winning Grand Slams

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:The only thing more remarkable about the pure greed of the English clubs is the amount of holes in their arguments about the relative strengths of the Rabo and the English Premiership and French Top 14. I have found the quality of rugby in the French league to be dreadful this season. Outside perhaps Toulouse, Clermont and in patches Toulon, the high standards set over the past decade has really fallen. While the EPL is moaning about the Celtic league (Italian clubs aren't celtic someone might inform them), about about the obscene amounts of money the French clubs are spending? Surely they should have their wage strutters capped to make sure they are on a level playing field with everyone else if we are truly going to construct a league based on 'fairness'.

When English clubs were dominating in Europe the great strength of the league was week-in, week-out intensity and physicality that men they were better prepared for titanic Heineken matches. This was alluded to by Lawrence Dallaglio directly after Wasps last victory in the tournament. Now the very same conditions are a weakness? It doesn't make sense. Have they not looked at the brand of rugby that formerly the best French teams and now Leinster (and their brand is not an accurate reflection of the rest of the league) are playing and think that the dirge produced in Europe might not just cut it at a higher level where brains are needed more than English (and inferior foreign mercenary) brawn?

As for Edinburgh getting to the semi, that is a total misnomer. Didn't Northampton get to the semi final in 2007 whilst getting relegated? I don't remember anyone complaining then.

The position of the EPL is utter hypocrisy from top to bottom. The only thing I see any value in is having qualification from the Rabo based on league standings. But I do not for one second believe that would change how teams go about selecting 'weakened sides'.

Silly question from the Southern Hem fan, given that the French clubs started this off, why are a significant proportion of people just focusing on the English ones?

Tis an interesting point, Pete, cos surely the size of the French salary cap relative to all others wil come under scrutiny?

Kiwireddevil wrote:Silly question from the Southern Hem fan, given that the French clubs started this off, why are a significant proportion of people just focusing on the English ones?

And people call us arrogant when we say people don't like us It was the same a few weeks ago when the French announced they were giving notice.

As for Edinburgh getting to the semi, that is a total misnomer. Didn't Northampton get to the semi final in 2007 whilst getting relegated? I don't remember anyone complaining then.

Yes, there was a lot of complaining. Most people said it served them right. And most people have given them credit for sorting themselves out. Edinburgh don't even have to do that. They can do the same thing year on year. Isn't that the PRL's point?

Oh and I thought the northern Italians were of celtic stock (proper celts not the modern celts)

English clubs give 2 year notice to withdraw from Heineken European Cup

Kiwi the clue is in the title.

Kiwireddevil wrote:Silly question from the Southern Hem fan, given that the French clubs started this off, why are a significant proportion of people just focusing on the English ones?

Thats a really good question Kiwi. I think the main reasons are a) The EPL are doing most of the talking to the English press and it is being presented as being English driven in the media. b) How many guys on here can speak French to check what the media are saying about this? I have read l'Equipe from time to time and it is a dreadful rag at times and their introverted attitude towards the competition has given the impression that French fans and the clubs don't really care about the competition. Obviously I can only offer anecdotal evidence to the contrary but I have yet to meet a French fan at Ravenhill that has made any comments like this. It is my understanding of what my AS Level French allows me to read is that they are much more concerned with the format of the competition in terms of number of pools and teams than interfering in other leagues as the EPL are attempting to do.

HammerofThunor wrote:Yes, there was a lot of complaining. Most people said it served them right. And most people have given them credit for sorting themselves out. Edinburgh don't even have to do that. They can do the same thing year on year. Isn't that the PRL's point?

I don't remember one iota of complaining from Irish press, though I certainly can't speak for the Welsh and Scottish versions. I remember some English fans and members of the IPL saying that Northampton getting that far whilst in a relegation battle showed the strength and depth of the Premiership. Yet with Edinburgh, it showed the weakness of the Rabo that they fielded 'weakened teams'? Pure hypocrisy.

With all due respect to Edinburgh the cam through a pretty average pool with the Blues, Racing and London Irish and then caused probably the biggest shock in the knock out phases in the history of the competition by beating Toulouse. If you put them in any other group they might very well not have got through to the knock out phases. And if the Rabo allows teams to focus directly on the Heineken Cup then why has this only happened now? Why have the Blues, Ospreys, Ulster, Dragons or Glasgow now met with similar success than a one off from Edinburgh? The EPL's argument doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

I must say it does make me chuckle when I read things like English "greed" and "self interest".

It was self interest that made the Scots and Welsh regionalise, and the Irish turn to their provinces which all but killed off their domestic "clubs".

I wonder how many complaints there would be if the English and French regionalised into 5 teams each and merged leagues with no relegation? I wonder how many Heineken Cups the Celtic Nations would win!

Seems like they want it all their own way......

Gordy; the difference being the welsh, Scottish and Irish are not trying to change the English league. But the English do seem to want to change others peoples. Also if you read through this thread you would see numerous posters recommending ringfencing the avaia. Lets face it, it already has because nobody gets relegated....

Gordy wrote:I must say it does make me chuckle when I read things like English "greed" and "self interest".

It was self interest that made the Scots and Welsh regionalise, and the Irish turn to their provinces which all but killed off their domestic "clubs".

I wonder how many complaints there would be if the English and French regionalised into 5 teams each and merged leagues with no relegation? I wonder how many Heineken Cups the Celtic Nations would win!

Seems like they want it all their own way......

Nobody would complain if you did that you can do whatever you want it's your league.
This is exactly what people have been saying to you, Do what you want with your own teams but do not interfere with the system that others have adopted.

Unless I am much mistaken this is at least the third time the English and/or French sides have threatened to withdraw. For those that think it is just sour grapes it is worth pointing out that on the previous occasions they threatened to pull out they were doing very well in the tournament. It does, to some extent, boil down to money. The last time they threatened to withdraw the English clubs revenues per game were less than half what they made in the Premiership, even the EDF was making (I think) about 50% more per match. I would assume as they continued to compete there has been some improvement on that, however, it is still likely to be significantly less than they make pro rata in the Premiership and TOP 14. While it is easy to accuse them of greed I struggle to see why they should be forced or compelled to continue in the tournament. While I agree that many club owners/directors struggle to see beyond the interests of their own club, it is also fair to say that they are not in it to make money. Most are passionate about their team and the game in general and are losing hundreds of thousands if not millions keeping their clubs afloat - wanting more money has more to do with limiting damage than it does with greed.

Gordy wrote:I must say it does make me chuckle when I read things like English "greed" and "self interest".

It was self interest that made the Scots and Welsh regionalise, and the Irish turn to their provinces which all but killed off their domestic "clubs".

I wonder how many complaints there would be if the English and French regionalised into 5 teams each and merged leagues with no relegation? I wonder how many Heineken Cups the Celtic Nations would win!

Seems like they want it all their own way......

Just because you keep restated this ill informed dross doesn't make it true. You know it's totally laughable for anyone who supports the EPL's side to use relegation in their argument as this is a league that has it only when it suits them.

The Scots and the Welsh didn't have the resources to have a professional league system like the Premiership. In fact the SRU could barely support three professional sides, and the Welsh couldn't support five. The Irish provinces pre-date of clubs from the end of the nineteenth century. We don't have the player number nor base to have a club system in the French or English mould, and we have largely struggled to support four provinces until the past two seasons where changes to IRFU funding of Connaught have ensured their survival. That's not 'self interest' that's just basic realism. It is English greed and self-interest to demand a 33% share in the revenues of this competition.

By the way, Leicester (x2), Toulouse (x2), Wasps (x2) all the won the competition with Munster just once before this period of Irish dominance of the tournament. Again, if the Rabo was so set up for all the teams to win why have the Welsh regions not won it yet? Why have the Scottish sides done so poorly?

Perhaps English sides should look at poor foreign recruitment, sub standard coaching and retrograde tactics before throwing stones at others in the competition. France have continued to be a power while English clubs continued to wane. Why no complaints about some of their huge wage bills which cannot be supported by revenues? Surely French financial power is more dangerous to the EPL than the Rabo, with the exodus of England and indeed Welsh players to the Top 14.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:As for Edinburgh getting to the semi, that is a total misnomer. Didn't Northampton get to the semi final in 2007 whilst getting relegated? I don't remember anyone complaining then.

Which perfectly illustrates the point - Northampton scraped through the group stage by virtue of having two weak teams in their group then fluked a win in the QFs, beating Biarritz away having lost home and away to them in the group stages.
It does really make the English and French clubs case for them.. and of course Northampton didn't then automatically qualify for the HC the next year

Big wrote:Unless I am much mistaken this is at least the third time the English and/or French sides have threatened to withdraw. For those that think it is just sour grapes it is worth pointing out that on the previous occasions they threatened to pull out they were doing very well in the tournament. It does, to some extent, boil down to money. The last time they threatened to withdraw the English clubs revenues per game were less than half what they made in the Premiership, even the EDF was making (I think) about 50% more per match. I would assume as they continued to compete there has been some improvement on that, however, it is still likely to be significantly less than they make pro rata in the Premiership and TOP 14. While it is easy to accuse them of greed I struggle to see why they should be forced or compelled to continue in the tournament. While I agree that many club owners/directors struggle to see beyond the interests of their own club, it is also fair to say that they are not in it to make money. Most are passionate about their team and the game in general and are losing hundreds of thousands if not millions keeping their clubs afloat - wanting more money has more to do with limiting damage than it does with greed.

Great point!

snoopster wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:As for Edinburgh getting to the semi, that is a total misnomer. Didn't Northampton get to the semi final in 2007 whilst getting relegated? I don't remember anyone complaining then.

Which perfectly illustrates the point - Northampton scraped through the group stage by virtue of having two weak teams in their group then fluked a win in the QFs, beating Biarritz away having lost home and away to them in the group stages.
It does really make the English and French clubs case for them.. and of course Northampton didn't then automatically qualify for the HC the next year

As I also said, though you didn't quote that, the only part of the EPL's suggestions I agree with is to have Rabo teams qualify through league placings. Never worry the intense damage it would potentially do to the Italian game as they try and truly embark on a professional regional scheme. But sure, as long as the EPL increases their share of the revenue what does it matter?

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

snoopster wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:As for Edinburgh getting to the semi, that is a total misnomer. Didn't Northampton get to the semi final in 2007 whilst getting relegated? I don't remember anyone complaining then.

Which perfectly illustrates the point - Northampton scraped through the group stage by virtue of having two weak teams in their group then fluked a win in the QFs, beating Biarritz away having lost home and away to them in the group stages.
It does really make the English and French clubs case for them.. and of course Northampton didn't then automatically qualify for the HC the next year

As I also said, though you didn't quote that, the only part of the EPL's suggestions I agree with is to have Rabo teams qualify through league placings. Never worry the intense damage it would potentially do to the Italian game as they try and truly embark on a professional regional scheme. But sure, as long as the EPL increases their share of the revenue what does it matter?

I was dealing purely with your comments about Saints run in 2006/07.

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

snoopster wrote:

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:As for Edinburgh getting to the semi, that is a total misnomer. Didn't Northampton get to the semi final in 2007 whilst getting relegated? I don't remember anyone complaining then.

Which perfectly illustrates the point - Northampton scraped through the group stage by virtue of having two weak teams in their group then fluked a win in the QFs, beating Biarritz away having lost home and away to them in the group stages.
It does really make the English and French clubs case for them.. and of course Northampton didn't then automatically qualify for the HC the next year

As I also said, though you didn't quote that, the only part of the EPL's suggestions I agree with is to have Rabo teams qualify through league placings. Never worry the intense damage it would potentially do to the Italian game as they try and truly embark on a professional regional scheme. But sure, as long as the EPL increases their share of the revenue what does it matter?

What intense damage would that be? In the last couple of seasons, Italian teams have moved from playing 6 HC pool games (and often losing badly) to playing 22 Rabo games (often losing badly) plus the 6 HC pool games (still often losing). Amlin is their level, and they would still get more than enough development experience.

I think the jist of the argument is that the English and French clubs are greedy and care only about the money because they think the split of funding should be weighted by who generates the money (they think its them). Where as the benevolent celtic clubs are only interested in the development of European rugby and therefore believe they deserve more money than is generated by their participation (in the eyes of the French and English clubs).

There's also the almost side-issue of the benevolent celts refusing to countenance the transformation of the Amlin into a more meaningful money generating competition, and the introduction of a meaningful, subsidised third tier competition to widen European rugby and develop nations beyond the 6N. But is it churlish to mention that?

It would certainly be churlish to mention that through most of the history of ERC that the benevolent celts have greedily been sucking up a more than generous share of the collective income generated by the French and English viewing populations.

Dubbelyew L Overate
You are perfectly correct that the bigger nations should dictate what happens it's all for the good of the game.
And why don't you come up with some hard evidence to show that these little nations contribute nothing to the Sky money pot that then should keep the doubters quiet.
It stands to reason that a larger population automatically means that there is going to be far more interest in rugby.
So the big three in order of population is France Italy and then England.

Cymro,

earlier in this thread I posted a link to an IRFU document that showed, by their reckoning, that Ireland receives about three times their contribution in terms of TV income for both 6N and ERC, about 2.5 times just for ERC. (Irish TV contributed 2m euros and they receive about 5m euros.)

It's fair to assume that the other celtic nations benefit similarly. I have no particular beef with that since it was a commercial negotiation and recognises the strength of the collective contributions of the likes of Leinster, Ospreys, Glasgow and Aironi, but it does seem a bit rich that English clubs are accused of being greedy when it is their market, and that of the French, that has been subsidising european rugby for the past decade or more.