England v Italy, Quarter Final, Build up and Match Thread

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

England v Italy (Sunday 24th June, 19:45 KO, BBC 1)

On the back of good defence, England have notched up 2 wins and a draw, confounding the majority of expectations along the way. The unexpected bonus of topping Group D has given them a game against Italy, not Spain, and England have a glorious chance of reaching their first semi-final in 16 years. Italy haven't really started yet and their sole win was against a poor Ireland team but they did manage an impressive draw against the Spanish. The winners will play Germany.......or maybe Greece.

My prediction: England 1-0 Italy

Come on England!

[Guest]

In all fairness I do believe Pearce is being groomed to eventually take over but 15 years?

[mystiroakey]

No pressure on him to perform - and the FA could state that to the world. Its a massive step and massive risk- but you know what- so what. England need a new approach and a new outlook

[GSC]

Ultimately I think Roys been brought in to usher in a new generation.

Under Redknapp we'd no doubt see the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Terry etc continue to feature.

[Josiah Maiestas]

Rooney is a great player when on British soil, but when he goes overseas though, he struggles so timidly. Some precocious talents can only perform in certain places.

[mystiroakey]

he hasnt struggled overseas for man u. put in some top cl perfomrnaces- he doesnt have the same players around him its that simple

[Guest]

Ultimately I think Roys been brought in to usher in a new generation.

Under Redknapp we'd no doubt see the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Terry etc continue to feature.

Without a doubt. Rio Ferdinand and Joe Cole would have both been included in this squad simply because he brought them through at West Ham. That's Harry's ego for you.

[Guest]

All these English Managers might ultimately be considered as "failures" - none of them getting to a major tournament final, none of them winning a major tournament. The question is, is Harry Redknapp so unique compared to these managers that we might expect something different?

Joe Mercer 1974
Don Revie 1974–1977
Ron Greenwood 1977–1982
Bobby Robson 1982–1990
Graham Taylor 1990–1993
Terry Venables 1994–1996
Glenn Hoddle 1996–1999
Howard Wilkinson 1999–2000
Kevin Keegan 1999–2000
Peter Taylor 2000
Sven-Göran Eriksson 2001–2006
Steve McClaren 2006–2007
Fabio Capello 2008–2012
Stuart Pearce 2012
Roy Hodgson 2012– ("success" as England Manager has yet to be determined)

[GSC]

Hodgson's at least gone overseas and had success, and has international experience.

[mystiroakey]

If roy has been put in charge to usher a new generation- what is that based on?

[azania]

There's a difference between managing a premiership team and being the england manager. For one you the players week in week out. The other main difference is that you can only pick english players. Systems means little to these guys. All they can do is battling defenses and kick a ball long and far.

[Guest]

It is quite staggering that we look at ourselves as a footballing super power when in reality we are nowhere near the top tier and are no nearer to entering that bracket.

I think it was stated earlier that the QF's are par for the course. Perhaps we should feel contented?

[mystiroakey]

maybe we shouldnt feel contended - maybe its time to get angry- maybe its time to get worse to get better.

maybe we shouldnt care, maybe we should

[liverbnz]

Ultimately I think Roys been brought in to usher in a new generation.

Under Redknapp we'd no doubt see the likes of Gerrard, Lampard, Terry etc continue to feature.

What are you basing that on? Hodgson has relied on older players the whole way through his career, so let's not be fooled by his selection of Chamberlin or the token call-up for Martin Kelly.

Gerard, Lampard and Terry were all in the original squad. The average age of the team tonight was 29 with Wellbeck being the only one under 26. His Fulham side was averaged 30 as did his signings at Liverpool. History tells us that Roy does not invest in youth.

As for Rooney, he was clearly not fully fit, but he would never be able to play to his full ability under such dracionion tactics. it's nothing to do with the players around him, as it's full of league winners and CL medalists. He had no support and the ball was often lumped long because it was England's only option as they were so far camped in their own half. For all Rooney's qualities, chasing after hoofs is not high on the list.

Perhaps QF is the best England can hope for, but the manner in which they went out should frankly embarrass any fan. Meek, timid, thoughtless, lacking ideas, etc, etc. 2 wins (and they weren't without luck) against mediorce opposition ( Ukraine are what? 50th in the world and still outplayed England ) and some people were actually believing England could win it!

This quote from Hodgson should give England fans a fair indication of what to expect in the coming years "we tried to control Pirlo". Tip for young coaches out there, if the opposition has 1 excellent player, give him 40 yards of space to operate in.

[mystiroakey]

Look i was one of the most enthusiastic supporters out of us whilst we were in the tourny- thats over know. time to get realistic.

Many of the negative posters are right- we are not good enough. Roy could well be masking those issues.

we deserved to go out- we were so bad we arnt even that gutted about losing on pens- because we would have felt embarrased about winning- i dont ever want to feel like that again!!

[mystiroakey]

i am sure many of you lot feel the same- this little nagging feeling about almost wanting to lose just so we wouldnt have to be subjected to how we won.. jeas that is sad times lol

offcourse if we had won i would be talking completly differently - i would be prasing hodgson , i would be prasing the effort and the gutsy effort- well untill the german game anyway lol

thats the way it is. we have two more years untill the next one.. what can we expect- not much more with hodgson in fairness, unless our players shine big time in the prem and then we will have unrealistic expectations and hodgson will be no.1 target if it goes wrong- hodgson had no pressue this time. But the reality is hodgson cant handle pressure- he never has done- his record shows he cant cope with it!!(liverpool and all his other jobs- he could only take teams so far- and if he thought there were bad experiences- just wait untill he realises whats gonna happen to you as a failed england manager).

poor dude- i feel for him..

people say harrys a bad choice- that guy knows what its like to stick about abit- he also prides attacking footy.. thats gotta be something.

defendning alot might win you many games, but does it make us fans happy

[Guest]

Realistically how good are the English players and how many "international" level English players are there to chose from?

How many non-English players play in the Premiership?
How many English players play in the Spanish top division?
How many English players play in the German top division?
How many English players play in top overseas footballing divisions?

Whatever happened to the footballing academies bringing through technically skilled young English players?

[Josiah Maiestas]

This all comes down to a serious lack of good coaching imho. Scott Parker was badly overrated by the media, the players coming through are often modelling their games on the likes of Gerrard and Parker and the problem continues. Where are the players with skill and flair???

[mystiroakey]

i am not bothered about who plays in other divsions- its not really material at the moment- we need the set up here perfect for grass roots footy- then we will produce, and then obviously we would export.

i am also not bothered about the prem having oversees players- i think it will benefit in the long run anyway. if we get youngsters to a good standard then bingo they will get in on merit, or they will have to go to other leagues to get jobs!

[Guest]

i am not bothered about who plays in other divsions- its not really material at the moment- we need the set up here perfect for grass roots footy- then we will produce, and then obviously we would export.

i am also not bothered about the prem having oversees players- i think it will benefit in the long run anyway. if we get youngsters to a good standard then bingo they will get in on merit, or they will have to go to other leagues to get jobs!

That's what Arsene Wengers say and who can argue against him. He says if they are good enough they will be in the Arsenal first team - I think only two currently make it.

[Postie]

Italy deserved to win the game, can't argue with that.We wern't good enough for various reasons stated above.

My one gripe is the way sucessive English 'keepers approach the shotouts, they always choose a side and dive before the kick is taken.It's been the same since '90 and it pisses me right off.

There's always players that try and blast it down the middle, plus the odd cute chip down the centre too.Just stand your ground and force THEM into making the decision.It's just so obvious, yet successive goalies have just decided and dived before the bloody kick is taken and leave the pen taker with a split second advantage.I can't be the only one to have noticed this ? God knows we've seen enough shootouts ffs.

PS; Am not knocking Joe Hart, he's played really well for us.Just don't understand why they don't back themselves a bit more in shootouts ?

Ok, rant over... I think we've got the best 4 teams in the semis now, so good luck to them.

[Crimey]

All the top teams play with two holding midfielders who are always covering yet can play passes that keep the game flowing:

Khedira
Schweinstiger

Busquets
Alonso

De Rossi
Pirlo

Mouthino
Veloso

They then have the playmaker playing just off the striker:

Xavi

Montelivo

Ozil

Ronaldo (To a lasser extent but does play a free role)

England need to adopt this formation if you ask me and they have the players to do this. With Wilshere coming in, Rooney can play in that hole and have Rodwell or whoever in the holding role with Wilshere. No coincidence that Italy, Germany, Spain and Portugal to a lesser extent are all in the last four playing that formation. Its not the be all and end all, juts another component of what it takes to reach the later stages of a major tournament.

To be fair, England did play this formation. Gerrard and Parker were the holding midfielders and the one in the hole was Young, Welbeck or Rooney.

[super_realist]

It is quite staggering that we look at ourselves as a footballing super power when in reality we are nowhere near the top tier and are no nearer to entering that bracket.

I think it was stated earlier that the QF's are par for the course. Perhaps we should feel contented?

Absolutely correct.

England are not a team capable of getting further than a QF.

In real terms they rank perhaps just in the top 12 of the world, and perhaps around 7th or 8th in Europe.

Asking England to succeed in these tournaments is like asking Fulham to qualify for the Champions League.

Roy Hodgson is as good fit for Manager as England have had for a generation but he still can't get past the hurdle, because the players aren't good enough or technical enough.

England cannot, and cannot be expected to win these things so get real please.

[Jennifer1984]

Well, I said it from the start that England weren't good enough, and I didn't allow myself to get carried away with the hype. In truth, I didn't expect England to get as far as they did. They at least deserve credit for that.

Also, it's quite amusing now to read all the excuses being trotted out for Rooney's clear and obvious inadequacies at this level: He was "rusty".... Hodgson used him wrong..... the other players around him weren't good enough to play to his abundant skills. Sheesh..!!

Oh well... He'll probably get a hat trick against QPR or West Ham before Christmas and he'll be called "world class" all over again.

But hey... Try this instead: Let's take the rose tinted spectacles off and say we're not good enough at this level. our so-called "best player" is little more than above average and is not capable of influencing matches in the way that truly great players do.

The plusses for England in this tournament were that we showed character and desire. We scrapped and battled our way into the Quarter Finals and achieved just about above our level. And that's it.

No amount of wishful thinking and blarneyed-up "analysis" is going to paper over those cracks.

We stand a good chance of qualifying for the next world cup..... we can at least bully Europe's third and fourth tier teams.... and we should settle for that because if we don't, and we continue to let ourselves be hyped into thinking that England are anything more than a moderate performer at the highest level, then all this disappointment will just go on and on.

Thank goodness Wimbledon starts today. We're rubbish at tennis too, but at least there is no eng-ur-land element there, trying to kid us that we're not.


.

[EnglishReign]

No one expected us to top the group...but when you top the group, you expect.

Wish we'd carried on having a go at Italy's defence, rather than running away from the ball. Was like a slow death watching it.

[super_realist]

You shouldn't expect when topping that particular group, it was one of the worst, and any of the four teams could have topped it and it wouldn't have been a surprise.

The best four teams are left in the competition, and the next best four are on their way home.
You should never expect anything, you should only hope to play well and see what happens, England did not play well.

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

All told - a decent tournament for England.
Penalties aside, Hodgson is now unbeaten in 6, and the team has kept 4 clean sheets. A fantastic foundation to build upon.
The team's technical ability is not good enough. So you start at the back - if you can't beat teams, make it as difficult as possible for them to beat you.
Roy now has two years to work on the rest, bring in and condition some fresh faces, and develop a team capable of reaching the QF's of the World Cup. One step at a time.

Man of the tournament (through gritted teeth I say) John Terry.

[mystiroakey]

"We stand a good chance of qualifying for the next world cup..... we can
at least bully Europe's third and fourth tier teams.... and we should
settle for that because if we don't, and we continue to let ourselves be
hyped into thinking that England are anything more than a moderate
performer at the highest level, then all this disappointment will just
go on and on."


rubbish- never ever should you accept mediocrity..we all get dissapointed by sport- cricket will dissapoint us soon enough, shouldwe take that when it happens, should we also accept out golfers arnt good enough to win majors(when they clearly are), should we accept being only ok at rugby!!

Sports dont grow without fans. dissapointment goes with fans- spains fans will be dissapointed soon enough.. we need to sort out our grass roots and hopefully one day we will be well up there

disapointment is part of life. if that doesnt exist then you never get the reverse emotion(happiness)

[88Chris05]

Given the dearth in real top-class quality of English players, injuries and a far from perfect build up (lest we forget, Hodgson only had two friendlies to get his house in order before the tournament), I'd say quarter finals was the best England could really have hoped for, realistically. Topping the group, in fact, means we may even have slightly overachieved here.

Losing on penalties suggests that we're not that far from being a truly top class team, but the truth is that England going through on that kind of turgid performance would have been a joke.

We did show some grit, the kind of grit which has been missing in the past; roaring back to win after going 2-1 down to Sweden and somehow holding on throughout 120 minutes of Italian domination last night were examples of this, so there are things to applaud. However, while it's a cliché, last night made it more apparent than ever; technically, England just don't have the talent and abilities of other leading teams.

Grass roots, and all that. Why do we still have promising eight or nine year olds playing on full sized pitches, on which it's terribly difficult for them to learn? Why do the pig-ignorant FA still refuse to even consider some kind of quota system for English players in the Premiership?

England have been adequate in this tournament, perhaps even verging on the 'good' at times, and given our current situation and problems making the quarter finals is no disgrace, even if the manner of last night's performance leaves a bitter taste. But sadly, I see little on the horizon to suggest that we're any closer to reaching that status as a truly top side, rather than just a serviceable one.

[LivinginItaly]

I hear so many times people arguing that we need to introduce a quota of English players per team, or a limit to the number of foreign players.

Maybe we can put this one to bed once and for all. They can't introduce any restriction on the number of European players as it will contravene European laws of employment. It really isn't so difficult to understand surely...

[mystiroakey]

No qouta is needed guys, its ludicrous. the prem is a big export for our country- our economy is more importanat. And the fact is having top forign players will aid us to develop kids of a better technical standard.

By the way living they can introduce quotas in truth because we do in other sports(cricket and rugby)- it is a grey area but if other sports do it!!

[super_realist]

Do they? The England cricket team looks like a Saffa 2nd XI.

[mystiroakey]

yes they do SR, by the way most of what you think are saffas moved here as kids- they are english. trott and kp arent i admit

[super_realist]

I don't really consider Rugby and Cricket to be "proper world" sports anyway as so few countries play them.
Cricket is just cucumber sandwiches and running off when it rains a little.

[mystiroakey]

Thats kind off completly immaterial- but thanks for sharing your views

BTW what do you consider as 'proper world' team sports then SR?

[88Chris05]

Maybe we can put this one to bed once and for all. They can't introduce any restriction on the number of European players as it will contravene European laws of employment. It really isn't so difficult to understand surely...

Not true at all, I'm afraid. Quotas are perfectly legal and could be introduced by the FA should they want to - but as I said, they won't.

As for our youngsters being better off for such a glut of foreign players playing in England, may I ask - have people not noticed the dearth in top-quality, truly exciting English youngsters coming through in recent times? I'm not sure how sitting on the bench and being deprived of valuable experience while a Spaniard / Italian / Frenchman / African etc starts week in week out will benefit them all that much.

We'll never know, of course, because as I said the FA will never introduce it; but I truly believe that a quota system of, say, five or six English players minimum per each and every starting eleven would be of great benefit to the national side.

[super_realist]

There aren't many Oakey granted, probably only football as a team global sport, what I don't like about Rugby, apart from the latent homosexuality, aquint lineouts, pointless scrums and stop start nature of the game is that only the GB&I nations, Argentina, SA, Australia and New Zealand play it to a reasonable standard.
MOst of the world cup is a complete joke due to the atrocious teams in it.
Make it 8 teams only, top 2 going through.

[LivinginItaly]

No qouta is needed guys, its ludicrous. the prem is a big export for our country- our economy is more importanat. And the fact is having top forign players will aid us to develop kids of a better technical standard.

By the way living they can introduce quotas in truth because we do in other sports(cricket and rugby)- it is a grey area but if other sports do it!!

Legally they can't enforce it. Cricket is different because nobody challenges the current squad regulations, as they agree to a certain extent with them because they have the mentality that they are their to feed the national team.

They could also introduce a similar regulation in the premiership and then wait for all of about 30 seconds before a team challenged it for contravening the European laws of employment. I will say it again... It really isn't so difficult to understand, surely.

They have talked a lot over the last few years about introducing a 6 + 5 quota system, but have never followed through with the plan. Why? Because they know as soon as a big team with a good legal representation complains, the regulation would be ruled illegal. It isn't only England that would like to introduce this kind of quota, but they don't because they know they can't. It is only a grey area at the moment because nobody has tried to introduce such a quota, and as such it hasn't been tested in a court of law.

[liverbnz]

England failed to qualify for the 1994 World Cup. That qualifying campaign began in 1992 when only 11 foreign players started the Premier League campaign. Blaming foreign players (and managers) is a typical response to another England humilaition, yet it has no creedance. The problem lies much closer to home.

If it wasn't for the Premier League's foreign legion, there's a good chance English teams would still be getting eliminated in the group stages of the Champions Leage or possibly even before that, just like they were in the early 90s when the foreign player count was minimal. There wouldn't be 4 CL spots either. So have a little think before criticising others for your own mistakes.

[mystiroakey]

Maybe we can put this one to bed once and for all. They can't introduce any restriction on the number of European players as it will contravene European laws of employment. It really isn't so difficult to understand surely...

Not true at all, I'm afraid. Quotas are perfectly legal and could be introduced by the FA should they want to - but as I said, they won't.

As for our youngsters being better off for such a glut of foreign players playing in England, may I ask - have people not noticed the dearth in top-quality, truly exciting English youngsters coming through in recent times? I'm not sure how sitting on the bench and being deprived of valuable experience while a Spaniard / Italian / Frenchman / African etc starts week in week out will benefit them all that much.

We'll never know, of course, because as I said the FA will never introduce it; but I truly believe that a quota system of, say, five or six English players minimum per each and every starting eleven would be of great benefit to the national side.

I prem is a top export so i would rather concentrate on benefits of that fact..

England have never produced that many technical players- also we are and have been a quarter final side for donkies- we still are, we still have a top ranking- we may not be the best but we arnt going backwards

Having technical players in the prem will only get our players upto scratch quicker

[mystiroakey]

No qouta is needed guys, its ludicrous. the prem is a big export for our country- our economy is more importanat. And the fact is having top forign players will aid us to develop kids of a better technical standard.

By the way living they can introduce quotas in truth because we do in other sports(cricket and rugby)- it is a grey area but if other sports do it!!

Legally they can't enforce it. Cricket is different because nobody challenges the current squad regulations, as they agree to a certain extent with them because they have the mentality that they are their to feed the national team.

They could also introduce a similar regulation in the premiership and then wait for all of about 30 seconds before a team challenged it for contravening the European laws of employment. I will say it again... It really isn't so difficult to understand, surely.

They have talked a lot over the last few years about introducing a 6 + 5 quota system, but have never followed through with the plan. Why? Because they know as soon as a big team with a good legal representation complains, the regulation would be ruled illegal. It isn't only England that would like to introduce this kind of quota, but they don't because they know they can't. It is only a grey area at the moment because nobody has tried to introduce such a quota, and as such it hasn't been tested in a court of law.

living i think your confused as the reason why they havent enforced a quota.. The prem would never do it- because its goal is to be a global brand and to make money

[super_realist]

Like how it helped having foreign players in the league when England failed to qualify for the last Euro?

England are second rate similar in level to Sweden, Czech Republic, Croatia and Greece, probably always will be. Accept it.

Ranking means nothing, there are a dozen teams better than England in reality in the world.

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

England are second rate similar in level to Sweden, Czech Republic, Croatia and Greece, probably always will be. Accept it.

As were Spain for a long long time

[mystiroakey]

Like how it helped having foreign players in the league when England failed to qualify for the last Euro?

England are second rate similar in level to Sweden, Czech Republic, Croatia and Greece, probably always will be. Accept it.

Ranking means nothing, there are a dozen teams better than England in reality in the world.

yeah and england have been that team for 40 years- i think its you that needs to accept it. no one here is saying england are a top tier country

[super_realist]

So what makes you think England can improve? I see nothing in anything they do.

Foreign players haven't helped to get England "up to scratch" as you suggest.

They've been in the league for years, and England are just as bad as they were when the premier league started.

It's English mentailty that needs to change. QF is an achievement commensurate with the team's quality. Be happy with that, it's better than most expected.

[LivinginItaly]

No qouta is needed guys, its ludicrous. the prem is a big export for our country- our economy is more importanat. And the fact is having top forign players will aid us to develop kids of a better technical standard.

By the way living they can introduce quotas in truth because we do in other sports(cricket and rugby)- it is a grey area but if other sports do it!!

Legally they can't enforce it. Cricket is different because nobody challenges the current squad regulations, as they agree to a certain extent with them because they have the mentality that they are their to feed the national team.

They could also introduce a similar regulation in the premiership and then wait for all of about 30 seconds before a team challenged it for contravening the European laws of employment. I will say it again... It really isn't so difficult to understand, surely.

They have talked a lot over the last few years about introducing a 6 + 5 quota system, but have never followed through with the plan. Why? Because they know as soon as a big team with a good legal representation complains, the regulation would be ruled illegal. It isn't only England that would like to introduce this kind of quota, but they don't because they know they can't. It is only a grey area at the moment because nobody has tried to introduce such a quota, and as such it hasn't been tested in a court of law.

living i think your confused as the reason why they havent enforced a quota.. The prem would never do it- because its goal is to be a global brand and to make money

No, not confused at all. In fact your point of a global brand is basically arguing the same point as me. The FA would be the ones to introduce a quota system, and the premier league or one of its participants would be the ones to challenge its validity legally, with one of the reasons being your explanation.

[mystiroakey]

So what makes you think England can improve? I see nothing in anything they do.

Foreign players haven't helped to get England "up to scratch" as you suggest.

They've been in the league for years, and England are just as bad as they were when the premier league started.

It's English mentailty that needs to change. QF is an achievement commensurate with the team's quality. Be happy with that, it's better than most expected.

You are missing point after point. Offcourse we want more- why shouldnt we?

all you are doing is proving the points but putting a negative stance on it. Engalnd can improve(just like any nation can) because its our no.1 sport , we have good participation,we love the game and we have passion and we can produce comparable results without having techinical players.. Once we get a team choker block full off em i think we can be a force.. Discussing how our team can improve is what forums are about SR!!!

[mystiroakey]

No qouta is needed guys, its ludicrous. the prem is a big export for our country- our economy is more importanat. And the fact is having top forign players will aid us to develop kids of a better technical standard.

By the way living they can introduce quotas in truth because we do in other sports(cricket and rugby)- it is a grey area but if other sports do it!!

Legally they can't enforce it. Cricket is different because nobody challenges the current squad regulations, as they agree to a certain extent with them because they have the mentality that they are their to feed the national team.

They could also introduce a similar regulation in the premiership and then wait for all of about 30 seconds before a team challenged it for contravening the European laws of employment. I will say it again... It really isn't so difficult to understand, surely.

They have talked a lot over the last few years about introducing a 6 + 5 quota system, but have never followed through with the plan. Why? Because they know as soon as a big team with a good legal representation complains, the regulation would be ruled illegal. It isn't only England that would like to introduce this kind of quota, but they don't because they know they can't. It is only a grey area at the moment because nobody has tried to introduce such a quota, and as such it hasn't been tested in a court of law.

living i think your confused as the reason why they havent enforced a quota.. The prem would never do it- because its goal is to be a global brand and to make money

No, not confused at all. In fact your point of a global brand is basically arguing the same point as me. The FA would be the ones to introduce a quota system, and the premier league or one of its participants would be the ones to challenge its validity legally, with one of the reasons being your explanation.

I am happy for the prem to be a global brand and a force on world club football. and long may that live in my opinion. I dont think having an almost clsoed shop to forign talent is gonna help us with anything. If we concentrate on grass roots and get twice the amount of top players- they could go to other forign leagues .. The prem isnt hurting our national game at all- its our grass roots coaching that is. At least watching technical players week in week out will get our kids practisng skills

[super_realist]

Of course you want more, just as I'm sure Finland, Hungary, Poland etc do too, but that doesn't mean it is realistically attainable.

For generations QF's are the very zenith of England's ability (with 2 semi's thrown in as fairly freakish outliers) with their current attitude, technical ability and unrealistic expectation/pressure, not to mention the over-rated players can you really expect to get any better? They are too far behind the real footballing giant nations.

England expect to do well, but i'm not sure why.

[mystiroakey]

Of course you want more, just as I'm sure Finland, Hungary, Poland etc do too, but that doesn't mean it is realistically attainable.

For generations QF's are the very zenith of England's ability (with 2 semi's thrown in as fairly freakish outliers) with their current attitude, technical ability and unrealistic expectation/pressure, not to mention the over-rated players can you really expect to get any better? They are too far behind the real footballing giant nations.

England expect to do well, but i'm not sure why.

we didnt expect to do well.. what the heck are you talking abou?t. We hope to do well, we long to do well.We discuss how we can get better and our problems. What is wrong with that?

[super_realist]

Nothing wrong with it, however, it's all "if's and but's".

They do this after every failure, yet never improve/learn. Why is that?

Initially expectations were low this year granted, but they were rising unrealistically, borne out by a truly wretched performance last night.

One of the Italian players who came on late as a sub actually made more passes than anyone on the England team.

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