England v Italy, Quarter Final, Build up and Match Thread

[Duty281]

First topic message reminder :

England v Italy (Sunday 24th June, 19:45 KO, BBC 1)

On the back of good defence, England have notched up 2 wins and a draw, confounding the majority of expectations along the way. The unexpected bonus of topping Group D has given them a game against Italy, not Spain, and England have a glorious chance of reaching their first semi-final in 16 years. Italy haven't really started yet and their sole win was against a poor Ireland team but they did manage an impressive draw against the Spanish. The winners will play Germany.......or maybe Greece.

My prediction: England 1-0 Italy

Come on England!

[GG]

How many players in the semi-finalists play in the EPL? Half a dozen or less?

Silva, Torres, Podolski, Mario, Mereiles. Can't think of any others without resorting to google.

[GG]

How many players in the semi-finalists play in the EPL? Half a dozen or less?

Silva, Torres, Podolski, Mario, Mereiles. Can't think of any others without resorting to google.

Mata, Nani.

[mystiroakey]

Sr just spit out your point mate. seriously you are talking riddles!!

I think i know what your saying.

You dont care what england do. you just want a pop. But your saying its the english menatlity holding us back in sport.. You think we want to stay in our comfoirt zones - lol..

Ok fine you could say that- but what does that matter-Have you seen the spainish,german and italian squads- 95% of those players play in there home leagues.- the reason some of them go elsewhere is because they have much more depth- they all cant fit into the top teams!!- england dont have that depth!

what we need is to fix it at grass roots and get more depth- You cant fix old dogs!!! get it??

[lorus59]

Podolski hasn't played there yet

[mystiroakey]

what do you mean developed?

offcourse they are developed- what are you suggesting?

I mean they go through a training structure, and as such as developed to play that way, but it's inflexible, and that it doesn't suit international football.

Moving elsewhere to leagues where the training/play is designed/and/or compatible to playing international football (e.g. Spain, Italy, Germany) then I can't see them progressing.

You said England needs to produce players on mass with technical ability before moving abroad. I don't see why.
It's odd that all nationalities move to the premiership, but no English move abroad.

You have just answered your question pal- they move to other top clubs because they have more depth than needed in there home leagues top clubs- this isnt mastermind time!!

[Guest]

Anyone notice how, when Milner was taken off, Italy and Pirlo became even more dominant?

You're not supposed to compliment Milner on here mate.

Fair enough.
Don't think Milner's that good, but I do think his role (and Hodgson's tactics) are sometimes overlooked. Milner plays what might be termed an 'in to out role' IMO in that, when the opposition has the ball he tucks in, giving us 3 in midfield and allowing us to compete in that area and, when we have the ball, he either drifts out wide himself, or drops back to cover for Glen Johnson or Gerrard getting forward. Once Walcott came on, we lost that third man defending in mid-field, switching to a basic 4-4-2, and Pirlo got even more space.
Of course, Walcott probably adds more in an attacking sense than Milner, but it's hard to attack when the opposition have got the ball all the time.

Milner appears a somewhat diluted version of his Aston Villa self if you get what I'm saying. He's gone from being a decent attacking outlet to an industrious workhorse since his move to City. He used to have a helluva cross on him during his Newcastle/Villa days but we rarely see it anymore.

He is however a top professional who digs in with minimal fuss therefor making him an easy scapegoat which is a shame.

[Guest]

Podolski hasn't played there yet

But he will, and many of the players have played in the English Premier League and have moved on after a good number of years (e.g. Alonso, Fabregas, Ronaldo ...)

[nasisillmatic]

England players need to go and play abroad for a while. Going to Germany, Italy and Spain will do them the world of good. Staying at awful clubs like Liverpool does nothing for them.

odd comment- england need to produce players with technical abililty on a mass scale first, then they will naturally go elsewhere.

we need to fix the whole mentality of grass roots football- competition based on skills rather than games should be looked into. The problem is the big lads play the game and the small kids get shunted out- we need to focus on different games to engage the kids that develop there strength later on.. Thats obviously just one idea.ED- fact is mate we all know what they are trying to do- they are trying to give an effectiveness grade based on there performnace- any good reveier or grader will also talk about the player.. Anyone that goes by a singular rating to gauge how he played is abit naive.


sportsville- yeah totally agree

This is a major problem that is only just being addressed by the FA. Kids playing on full size football pitches is a big reason English players struggle in Internationals in holding the ball and playing possesion football.

Steven Gerrard said in his book he was worried that he wouldn't make it as a footballer because he was too small in is early teens, how sad is it that one of the best English midfielders of the last ten years might not be where he is because of a few inches.

The best player in the world is 5"7, if he was English he would not have made it.

[super_realist]

Oakey, The problem is the English mentality, the one dimensional way they are trained, the league they play in and over expectant fans and where they see themselves.

England remind me of the Old Firm, they think they are big and important but they aren't, they see themselves as hard to beat and teams that are feared, but no one does really.

Staying at home like the Germans, Italians or Spanish is fine for them, because they've got the leagues that support that style of play internationally.

If England players want to achieve internationally they have to leave the comfort of the Premier League and play somewhere different and learn how to play differently.
They might earn less, but who cares, whatever they earn they'll be minted.


Simple enough?. I think England could do well, but big change is needed.

[mystiroakey]

SR you are being way to harsh on this england team- they dont think they are to big at all- they gave it there all this time and did alot with what is in all fairness limited ability v teams like italy,germany etc.

you wanna talk about players with bad attitudes - look at the dutch and the french- oddly enough two teams that play elsewhere more than others!

[super_realist]

There's a lot of French and Dutch in the Premier League? Possible correlation between poor performances and the league?

I am being harsh on England, but I'm listening to a radio debate at the moment and they are analysing why England failed.

I don't think it is a failure. I think it's the best they can achieve in their current set up.

[sportform]

Anyone notice how, when Milner was taken off, Italy and Pirlo became even more dominant?

I felt we could have tucked Milner inside and gone with a three man midfield. It would have stopped us getting overrun there. But I only noticed this in the friendlies so what chance did the English coaching staff have?

If we were going to play 4-4-2 I would have preferred Andy Carroll to start. If would have caused problems in 1st half when we actually got the ball wide and put crosses in. Welbeck did ok in the tournament but never really threatened that much in front of goal. Welbeck would have surely have been a better option coming on when players were tiring and England needed pace to break with?

[mystiroakey]

Sr you need to understand that technical abilty is the biggest key to international football these days, The other issues are minor in comparison.

we need the minerals. and it really is stupid blaming the prem on the dutch and french attitudes-- the english tried there hardest and all players are from the prem

[nasisillmatic]

Oakey, The problem is the English mentality, the one dimensional way they are trained, the league they play in and over expectant fans and where they see themselves.

England remind me of the Old Firm, they think they are big and important but they aren't, they see themselves as hard to beat and teams that are feared, but no one does really.

Staying at home like the Germans, Italians or Spanish is fine for them, because they've got the leagues that support that style of play internationally.

If England players want to achieve internationally they have to leave the comfort of the Premier League and play somewhere different and learn how to play differently.
They might earn less, but who cares, whatever they earn they'll be minted.


Simple enough?. I think England could do well, but big change is needed.

This is nonsense.

How many of the Spanish starting 11 play in La Liga? I think it's 10 out of 11.

English players stay in the Premier League because it is one of the best leagues in the world. The problem lies with grassroots football being stuck in the 80's. Whether Wayne Rooney moved to abroad or not is irrelevent beacuse he would still play the same game he does now.

[super_realist]

I understand that precisley Oakey.

I'm saying that perhaps the Premier League isn't the best environment in which players can develop technical ability suitable for international football, and given that's all English players ever learn (due to never moving abroad) then they'll never get further than a QF or the odd SF.

Whereas other countries have a system which develops them in a way better suited to success in tournament.

Fair enough?

[Liam]

Sr you need to understand that technical abilty is the biggest key to international football these days, The other issues are minor in comparison

I agree, allows you to hold onto posession and keep the ball allot easier. England so many times jut lumped it forward under pressure in defence and didn't back themselves to play a pass under pressure. That will change with better technical players e.g. Wilshere, Rodwell, Cleverly..

[Leff]

Nice blog by BBC's Phil McNulty:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/philmcnulty/2012/06/euro_2012_england_v_italy_-_a.html

[jbeadlesbigrighthand]

"I think you've got a great manager in Hodgson"

possibly the worst long term option ever- this is a manger that is proved to make a difference quickly at 18 clubs before, he has never stayed longer than 2 years at these clubs!! alarm bells are ringing big time!!

He acheived with no pressure, the only job he has had when he was under the cosh was liverpool and he was cast out.

I hope he proves me wrong- because he has tactical nouse. but his record suggest he is not a long term option- he is very stubborn with his footyballing system and obviously has issues with his employers and that why he has left of been sacked 20 odd times in his carrer.. he hasnt made any legacys at all!

I'm not sure Hodgson's lack of longevity with a club is that big an issue. International managers don't have the same potential as club managers to build and shape their team. They simply have to work with whatever is available to them. Hodgson has an excellent record of doing just that. As for having issues with his owners - the dynamic between a manager and his paymasters is completely different at international level. Again, I don't see that as a problem.

[mystiroakey]

"I think you've got a great manager in Hodgson"

possibly the worst long term option ever- this is a manger that is proved to make a difference quickly at 18 clubs before, he has never stayed longer than 2 years at these clubs!! alarm bells are ringing big time!!

He acheived with no pressure, the only job he has had when he was under the cosh was liverpool and he was cast out.

I hope he proves me wrong- because he has tactical nouse. but his record suggest he is not a long term option- he is very stubborn with his footyballing system and obviously has issues with his employers and that why he has left of been sacked 20 odd times in his carrer.. he hasnt made any legacys at all!

I'm not sure Hodgson's lack of longevity with a club is that big an issue. International managers don't have the same potential as club managers to build and shape their team. They simply have to work with whatever is available to them. Hodgson has an excellent record of doing just that. As for having issues with his owners - the dynamic between a manager and his paymasters is completely different at international level. Again, I don't see that as a problem.

i hope your right- all i know is that i wouldnt employ someone with that kind of cv

[Guest]

Another factor to consider, on the part of the "foreign" influence in the Premiership compared to other top European leagues - how many of the Premiership managers are "foreign" compared to the number in the other leagues. "Foreign" managers tend to scout and pick up young prospects from their own countries (e.g. Wenger and France, Benitez and Spain ...)

[sportform]

This is a major problem that is only just being addressed by the FA. Kids playing on full size football pitches is a big reason...

Why is kids playing on full sized pitches the season English players can't keep the ball?

Why should kids play on smaller pitches?

I hear loads of people on the radio, forums, pubs etc say 'smaller pitches, smaller teams' but never say why?

I'm just curious as to why people on here think this would benefit development?

[mystiroakey]

I understand that precisley Oakey.

I'm saying that perhaps the Premier League isn't the best environment in which players can develop technical ability suitable for international football, and given that's all English players ever learn (due to never moving abroad) then they'll never get further than a QF or the odd SF.

Whereas other countries have a system which develops them in a way better suited to success in tournament.

Fair enough?

SR you are looking at the present and saying players should just go abroad to get there training- thats not a long term option IMO. I am saying fix it in England(UK)- because we should be able to ourselves!

the difference is mentality- we both know englands limitations

[nasisillmatic]

This is a major problem that is only just being addressed by the FA. Kids playing on full size football pitches is a big reason...

Why is kids playing on full sized pitches the season English players can't keep the ball?

Why should kids play on smaller pitches?

I hear loads of people on the radio, forums, pubs etc say 'smaller pitches, smaller teams' but never say why?

I'm just curious as to why people on here think this would benefit development?

The aim on a smaller pitch is to keep the ball on the floor and play with the ball, get a feel for it and be comfortable with it, not lump it up field to the tallest player on the pitch so he can outmuscle the small defender and score. Have you ever watched a kids league game on full size pitches, it's shocking to watch.

[sportform]

England have under achieved. Maybe not in individiual tournaments but in general.

We have two of the richest leagues in the world, many of the richest clubs, funding and development should not be a problem.

We have won as many, if not more continental club competitions as the German, Italian and Spanish leagues so why are we trailing in nation competitions? This can't just be blamed on foreign players either as we dominanted Europe in the late 70s and early 80s with English players and we still have only won one World Cup.

England SHOULD be winning major tournaments and the FA has done very little to help.

[mystiroakey]

imagine kids only played skills comps rather than any games until they are 9- just get kids passing to each other but not being able to go out of a cirlce and the winners are the ones that do 50 the quickest, things like that!!- then go on to 5 a side, if you kick the ball to high its a foul..

[mystiroakey]

England have under achieved. Maybe not in individiual tournaments but in general.

We have two of the richest leagues in the world, many of the richest clubs, funding and development should not be a problem.

We have won as many, if not more continental club competitions as the German, Italian and Spanish leagues so why are we trailing in nation competitions? This can't just be blamed on foreign players either as we dominanted Europe in the late 70s and early 80s with English players and we still have only won one World Cup.

England SHOULD be winning major tournaments and the FA has done very little to help.

yeah exactly!

[nasisillmatic]

England have under achieved. Maybe not in individiual tournaments but in general.

We have two of the richest leagues in the world, many of the richest clubs, funding and development should not be a problem.

We have won as many, if not more continental club competitions as the German, Italian and Spanish leagues so why are we trailing in nation competitions? This can't just be blamed on foreign players either as we dominanted Europe in the late 70s and early 80s with English players and we still have only won one World Cup.

England SHOULD be winning major tournaments and the FA has done very little to help.

Spot on.

How many times do you hear people say the English league is full of foreign players ruining it. People forget these same foreign players have made the Premier League one of the best in the world, we shouldn't be trying to limit or blame them, we should embrace their philosophies and realise that football has moved on from the 80's.

The English way is so out dated it is shocking.

[Josiah Maiestas]

English clubs offer too high wages, I mean Bayern Munich were making offers for Leighton Baines and he didn't want to leave. Seriously if you are ambitious, Everton or Bayern??? Clubs pay far too much money for players, and it destroys the young players coming through.

[mystiroakey]

English clubs offer too high wages, I mean Bayern Munich were making offers for Leighton Baines and he didn't want to leave. Seriously if you are ambitious, Everton or Bayern??? Clubs pay far too much money for players, and it destroys the young players coming through.

Jos we have to understand that the limitation isnt due to prem clubs being to rich.. the limitation is the amount of players we have at the highest level. The Prem needs to remain strong- it actually is more important than our national team. you may not like that sentiment but it is- it is a great export and we need to keep its brand name strong.. We can still get loads of players in top clubs- but we just need to produce more at a technical level.. FA makes bundlestherefore it needs to stop wasting its resources.. Leighton baines is one player- thats all. He cant even be on much money at everton anyway. if bayern arnt willing to match that wage or increase it abit- they either dont really want him or need to sort there own finances out

[super_realist]

England have under achieved. Maybe not in individiual tournaments but in general.

We have two of the richest leagues in the world, many of the richest clubs, funding and development should not be a problem.

We have won as many, if not more continental club competitions as the German, Italian and Spanish leagues so why are we trailing in nation competitions? This can't just be blamed on foreign players either as we dominanted Europe in the late 70s and early 80s with English players and we still have only won one World Cup.

England SHOULD be winning major tournaments and the FA has done very little to help.

yeah exactly!

I agree with most of that except that England SHOULD be winning. You only win if you deserve it. England haven't even come close.


Also, most early football training isn't FA related, so you can't blame them for how people play football in the really early years.

[mystiroakey]

SR its all related at the school level- the fa can push the sports minister to do stuff- the sports minister can push them as well- they work together.

It doesnt matter if it comes from the fa's profits or our tax. its all the same when it boils down to it

[Josiah Maiestas]

English clubs offer too high wages, I mean Bayern Munich were making offers for Leighton Baines and he didn't want to leave. Seriously if you are ambitious, Everton or Bayern??? Clubs pay far too much money for players, and it destroys the young players coming through.

Jos we have to understand that the limitation isnt due to prem clubs being to rich.. the limitation is the amount of players we have at the highest level. The Prem needs to remain strong- it actually is more important than our national team. you may not like that sentiment but it is- it is a great export and we need to keep its brand name strong.. We can still get loads of players in top clubs- but we just need to produce more at a technical level.. FA makes bundlestherefore it needs to stop wasting its resources.. Leighton baines is one player- thats all. He cant even be on much money at everton anyway. if bayern arnt willing to match that wage or increase it abit- they either dont really want him or need to sort there own finances out

They were going to offer him similar wages to what he had, he was just scared of going to Germany. Probably thinks they are the same Germans as the ones in 1940's.

[mystiroakey]

English clubs offer too high wages, I mean Bayern Munich were making offers for Leighton Baines and he didn't want to leave. Seriously if you are ambitious, Everton or Bayern??? Clubs pay far too much money for players, and it destroys the young players coming through.

Jos we have to understand that the limitation isnt due to prem clubs being to rich.. the limitation is the amount of players we have at the highest level. The Prem needs to remain strong- it actually is more important than our national team. you may not like that sentiment but it is- it is a great export and we need to keep its brand name strong.. We can still get loads of players in top clubs- but we just need to produce more at a technical level.. FA makes bundlestherefore it needs to stop wasting its resources.. Leighton baines is one player- thats all. He cant even be on much money at everton anyway. if bayern arnt willing to match that wage or increase it abit- they either dont really want him or need to sort there own finances out

They were going to offer him similar wages to what he had, he was just scared of going to Germany. Probably thinks they are the same Germans as the ones in 1940's.

haha what a ridiculas comment- do you really believe that. what a strange opinion you have of him.

Leighton is obviously holding out for a better offer - he isnt stupid and knows how scarce left sided defenders are.. Its abit insulting to offer a player what he is on at a lower club. We have to respect his decision- uprooting your family to go to germany also is an issue- but it isnt because he thinks they are nazis!!!!!

[Crimey]

imagine kids only played skills comps rather than any games until they are 9- just get kids passing to each other but not being able to go out of a cirlce and the winners are the ones that do 50 the quickest, things like that!!- then go on to 5 a side, if you kick the ball to high its a foul..

#

Nobody wants to do that though.

I remember being around the age of 8-10 and despising going to football coaching schools where they made you do things like that, it was only fun when you got to actually play the game, that's what you saw on TV, that's what was more exciting.

It's sad that it's the case, but it is.

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

Crimey's right. I'm 27 and I still hate drills in training, and only have fun once the game kicks off.

[LivinginItaly]

I agree Crimey that young kids only want to play a game and not do skill drills, I was the same at that age. However, the numbers involved and the dimensions of the pitch and goals can and should be modified in order to promote a more skillful and technical approach.

[Stella]

Playing a game is great but not 11 a side on a big pitch. We use to and all we done was run up and down chasing the damn ball for most of the game.

Decrease the number of players and the size of the pitch.

[mystiroakey]

what if dont have choice. during sports time at school. the kids will still play every lunch time anyway

[Crimey]

Playing a game is great but not 11 a side on a big pitch. We use to and all we done was run up and down chasing the damn ball for most of the game.

Decrease the number of players and the size of the pitch.

I think people would enjoy that, but the constant drills would prove extremely unpopular. Especially among children who at that age just want to have fun and are not realistically considering carving out a career in international football.

[Crimey]

what if dont have choice. during sports time at school. the kids will still play every lunch time anyway

You'll just put people off playing football as it will become a chore rather than something they enjoy doing.

[mystiroakey]

obviously i made it quite clear to go to 5 aside at 9

[mystiroakey]

what if dont have choice. during sports time at school. the kids will still play every lunch time anyway

You'll just put people off playing football as it will become a chore rather than something they enjoy doing.

I hoinestly dont think so at all. I belive it would get less developed kids more into the game- the big lads that love football would play every lunch time anyway. But the ones that shy away from the game might actually prefer competitive drills!!

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

The trick is to implement coaching, and drills into games.
The old 5 completed passes before you can shoot rule
Or forfeits for incomplete passes etc.

I think that's the trick anyway
I'm not a coach

[Crimey]

obviously i made it quite clear to go to 5 aside at 9

But by 9, they'll have been put off because football will have been just constant passing it to each other all the time and nothing like what they actually want to do, which is pretend to be the footballers on TV.

[mystiroakey]

they wouldnt be put of at all crimey.. kids on the lwhole love football because of there dads and mates, and playing at lunch time or summer holidays.

The one time we have to give em proper training is at sports period. they are not gonna hate football becaues of drills, some may hate it, but i reakon it could actually get more into the game

[liverbnz]

The trick is to see how it's done successfully elsewhere and try and mimic that approach. Easier said than done as it will require a major culture change in grass roots football in England, although with the likes of AOC and Jack Wilshire coming through, and Raheem Sterling in behind them, all is not lost.

[Crimey]

they wouldnt be put of at all crimey.. kids on the lwhole love football because of there dads and mates, and playing at lunch time or summer holidays.

The one time we have to give em proper training is at sports period. they are not gonna hate football becaues of drills, some may hate it, but i reakon it could actually get more into the game

Well I can remember having to do drills, and I can remember despising them.

I remember at the age of 8 going to a football school, went back every summer until about 10 then just got sick of the drills, so stopped going. I know that every year the numbers for it dropped, people get bored of doing drills.

[Stella]

I don't think most kids will mind drills as long as they have a ball at their feet.

My early experiences of football training were press ups, star jumps and having to lift my feet off the floor 6 inches for about 20 minutes. Now that IMO was pointless for a 10 year old.

[mystiroakey]

the key is to make drills competitive and engaging- to make mini games that teach development.


if we had other games that focused on skillsets rather than bombing about scrambling and trying to score- like possesion football- the only object is to keep the ball longer than the opponents(i am sure in spain they will play stuff like that)

[MtotheC's Wrasslin Biatch]

Also, all the kids I see playing football nowadays want to be Ronaldo.
No-one seems to pass. Never mind worrying about completing a pass. They all look down at their own feet rather than keeping their head up and looking at what's going on around them.
If anything, I expect a few generations to get worse before it gets better.

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