England can mount a serious challenge for the No1 spot and the 2015 RWC

First topic message reminder :

As an England fan I'm happy that we're the highest ranking NH team, this is a huge achievement for such a new team and coaching set up.

But lets be honest we should have won the 3rd test.

As an England fan we should be aiming higher than 4th, we could mount a serious challenge for the No1 spot and the 2015 RWC IMO, Aus and SA are there for the taking and as Ireland showed NZ can be got at (well sometimes!)

As an England fan I want to see my team do all the performing on the pitch and not just talking a good game off which seems to satisfy some countries fans.

Every game, in every way, we're getting better and better.

gregortree wrote:Another World of pain
Challenge outside Europe ?

'Yes we can'

[Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Japan]

"A drowing man will grasp at a straw." But it does make my point so well that Wales even lose out in the RWC to these minnows on a regularly basis.

Equo Troiano wrote:

munkian wrote:

Ask the French, Scots, Welsh, Irish, Argies etc who they would most want to put one over on and they'll all say ENG.

Not for me. We regularly beat England. I want an Australian scalp more than ever now seeing as each match was pretty darn close.

Actually, no you don't, history shows us that statistically, the two sides are very even in terms of victories. And you can crow all you like about 6N form, it means little if you can't cross the equator and beat a(ny) SH team as England have done on a number of occasions. I was still in nappies when Wales last got one over the Wallabies in their own back yard.

And close? - yes, close - but, no cigar. This Wallabies side is arguably the weakest of the big three, yet still Wales failed to beat them, I suspect that England would have beaten them once at least.

Do try to get a sense of perspective, there's a good chap.

If anyone is crowing it's you 'old chap'

Yup, the results between are probably about equal - so us winning agaisnt you is pretty regular - especially in recent years.

And you've pretty much argued my point for me - we don't reguallry beat SH teams. especially away, which is why I said I care more about beating Aus than England

<personal attack removed>

Ecquo, so the results head to head are pretty even, does that mean Wales don't beat England regularly?
2005, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011 - friendly, 2012. That's pretty regular,
and most of us agree that beating England isn't the be all and end all any more. We'd like a win over Australia, not sure why we
need perspective?

I'm happy England is still improving under Lancaster, let’s face it when was the last time a home nation went to SA and got a win or a draw?

If Ireland, Wales or Scotland got a draw against SA away it would be declared a huge achievement for them and a national holiday, but not England we as a nation expect more and in truth we should have won the series.

Such a shame we weren't playing Aus as we would have won at least two games, but such is life.

I try to make this point two days ago HERSH. That Wales fail can be trace to the psychology of the FAN and not the TEAM. A close losing as you can see is treat like a success and anyone who says it is not they try to run off the forum as a WUM! But Eng get the draw and play so well and still take the objective analysis and saying "Good tour but we should win this!" and so is unfolding they learning from close loss and elevate to DRAW when Wales satisfied with the close loss and go on to the other close loss!

Higher_Ground wrote:Ecquo, so the results head to head are pretty even, does that mean Wales don't beat England regularly?
2005, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011 - friendly, 2012. That's pretty regular,
and most of us agree that beating England isn't the be all and end all any more. We'd like a win over Australia, not sure why we
need perspective?

Yes it is quite regular, a bit like in the late 80's, 90's and early Noughties when its a wonder England even bothered to turn up and play against Welsh opposition, such was the inevitably of England's victories.

Hersh, England have a lot of potential now, best for years, and would have probably beaten Australia yesterday playing the way they did, but you were one awful kicking performance away from a whitewash, and nothing more.
England will take more positives home than Wales or Ireland though.

I haven't read a single comment from a Welshman on these boards saying he's satisfied with our narrow defeats against the Wallabies.

So what's you're point ?

Mine is that as a Welsh fan I now care more about beating Australia than England - I was replying to someone's post stating otherwise.

I'm bored of having weeing contests with English fans - it's boring and dull.

I'm not sure where you are going with your bizare rants

Equo Troiano wrote:

Higher_Ground wrote:Ecquo, so the results head to head are pretty even, does that mean Wales don't beat England regularly?
2005, 2007, 2008, 2009, 2011 - friendly, 2012. That's pretty regular,
and most of us agree that beating England isn't the be all and end all any more. We'd like a win over Australia, not sure why we
need perspective?

Yes it is quite regular, a bit like in the late 80's, 90's and early Noughties when its a wonder England even bothered to turn up and play against Welsh opposition, such was the inevitably of England's victories.

Yes, and if I now tell you that the results over time are pretty equal and that you need some
perspective, I will have made the same point as you.
It's that exact turnaround from those days you mentioned that means we aren't so desperate to beat England any more.

Higher_ground 100% agree,

Past England teams have been destroyed in SA this time it was respectable and the squad learnt a lot about themselves and can feel disappointed that they didn't win a test if not the series, roll on the AI.

What are England's AI fixtures?

munkian wrote:So what's you're point ?

Mine is that as a Welsh fan I now care more about beating Australia than England - I was replying to someone's post stating otherwise.

I'm bored of having weeing contests with English fans - it's boring and dull.

I'm not sure where you are going with your bizare rants

Agree with this. You had a good RWC and won a grandslam in the 6 nations. You should be looking to beat the tri nations - not focus on the NH sides like England.

Wales have shown they can put a fight vs the tri nations but that W seems to be elusive at the moment.

England should and is aiming to be No.1 side in the world as i am sure Wales are and i am sure lots of other nations are also.

For England for mine the underlying issue is to develop our own way of playing the game rather than worrying about countering the opposition.

We need to have a carrying game in the forwards.

That is the next BIG challenge.

We also need to be the fittest side in the world to be the best.

Welsh style ice chambers anyone?

I think most would agree that in RWC Wales were incredibly fit. My question is this: why are ALL of the top nations NOT using these ice chambers??

munkian wrote:So what's you're point ?

Mine is that as a Welsh fan I now care more about beating Australia than England - I was replying to someone's post stating otherwise.

I'm bored of having weeing contests with English fans - it's boring and dull.

I'm not sure where you are going with your bizare rants

I'm pretty sure there are thousands of Welshmen who still disagree with that, judging by the reaction Mike Tindall got and of the signing of God Save the Queen in the millennium stadium during the Baa baars match.

Equo Troiano wrote:What are England's AI fixtures?

Fiji, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand

So win 0 = sack the coach, win 1 = disappointing, win 2 = par. win 3 = good, win 4 and even the Welsh admit you're #1

Saturday 10 November 2012
France v Australia, Stade de France, TBC
England v Fiji, Twickenham, 14.30
Wales v Argentina, Millennium Stadium, 14.30

Sunday 11 November, 2012
Scotland v New Zealand, Murrayfield, 14.30

Friday 16 November 2012
Wales v Samoa, Millennium Stadium, 19.30

Saturday 17 November 2012
England v Australia, Twickenham, 14.30
Scotland v South Africa, Murrayfield, 14.30
France v Argentina, Stade de France, TBC

Saturday 24 November
England v South Africa, Twickenham, 14.30
Wales v New Zealand, Millennium Stadium, 17:15
France v Samoa, Stade de France, TBC
Ireland v Argentina, Lansdowne Road, TBC

Sunday 25 November
Scotland v Tonga, TBC, 15.00

Saturday 1 December
England v New Zealand, Twickenham, 14.30
Wales v Australia, Millennium Stadium, 14:30

I think we'll beat Fiji, Aus and SA

Do we really have to play NZ?

HERSH wrote:I think we'll beat Fiji, Aus and SA

Do we really have to play NZ?

You can't beat the best if you don't play them HERSH

Besides, it lets the RFU charge an absolute fortune for tickets.

Yes, but I bet England don't lose 60-0!

Cheers for the info, shame the games are on at the same time - could've been a nice day of live rugby

Equo Troiano wrote:Yes, but I bet England don't lose 60-0!

Is this spiteful comment really necessary?

Are you for real? How is that spiteful?

Trying to wind up Irish fans by gloating about their heavy defeat to the All Blacks.

beshocked wrote:Trying to wind up Irish fans by gloating about their heavy defeat to the All Blacks.

There's no hope for you. There really, really isn't

You should look in the mirror some time Equo Troiano.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

Equo Troiano wrote:What are England's AI fixtures?

Fiji, Australia, South Africa, New Zealand

So win 0 = sack the coach, win 1 = disappointing, win 2 = par. win 3 = good, win 4 and even the Welsh admit you're #1

Saturday 10 November 2012
France v Australia, Stade de France, TBC
England v Fiji, Twickenham, 14.30
Wales v Argentina, Millennium Stadium, 14.30

Sunday 11 November, 2012
Scotland v New Zealand, Murrayfield, 14.30

Friday 16 November 2012
Wales v Samoa, Millennium Stadium, 19.30

Saturday 17 November 2012
England v Australia, Twickenham, 14.30
Scotland v South Africa, Murrayfield, 14.30
France v Argentina, Stade de France, TBC

Saturday 24 November
England v South Africa, Twickenham, 14.30
Wales v New Zealand, Millennium Stadium, 17:15
France v Samoa, Stade de France, TBC
Ireland v Argentina, Lansdowne Road, TBC

Sunday 25 November
Scotland v Tonga, TBC, 15.00

Saturday 1 December
England v New Zealand, Twickenham, 14.30
Wales v Australia, Millennium Stadium, 14:30

Just looking at this i am quite pleased. For the following reasons:

1. You do have to play the best to improve and you do have to beat the best to be the best;
2. With all due respect to Fiji who will be physical etc we get what should be the easiest game 1st up v Fiji;
3. All of our opponents will have had a very tough game the week before they play us. ( And yes i do know that can cut both ways). OZ will have had their scrum weaknesses exposed by France and will have had a big physical battering, SA will have had an intense bash up derby with Scotland (who hopefully wont beat them this time!!!) Finally the All Blacks will have just had a hugely intense match with Wales at the millenium.

beshocked wrote:You should look in the mirror some time Equo Troiano.

I do, and its a wonderful sight.

Still, as instructed, moving on and all that.

Thanks for that. We don't want this to mirror other threads.

I wonder what odds you would get on England winning all 4?

HERSH,

What would yu take as a successful AI seris win ratio wise?

For us I reckon we have to get 3 out ot 4 (Pumas, Samoa and Australia) anything less be seen as going backwards, NZ still too far ahead IMO

bedfordwelsh wrote:HERSH,

What would yu take as a successful AI seris win ratio wise?

For us I reckon we have to get 3 out ot 4 (Pumas, Samoa and Australia) anything less be seen as going backwards, NZ still too far ahead IMO

2 is the minimum, which I can see us getting, we might get one more but that will depend on injuries as we don't have the depth IMO.

and I have already written off the NZ game unless they have an injuries list as long as the queue for the proposed topless barmaids bar just outside the stadium.

Who are you taking as your second win (assuming Fiji is your first ).

Australia or the Boks

the Boks.

I still think we own the Aussies at Twickers, who knows maybe Ashton will score another try for England too!

But in truth I think I'd like to see us beat SA for once, if I had to pick just one.

HERSH wrote:I wonder what odds you would get on England winning all 4?

All 4?

Not that I am a bookie, but i do like to play with numbers.

I'll use professional era win ratio's

Formula

Fiji X SA X OZ X NZ = P
100/P = ratio
ratio X W X N = Odds
W = years England have beaten all three Tri Nation teams in same year.
N = number of years england play rugby.

100% X 38.63% X 45.23% X 15.62% = 2.72%

100/2.72 = 36.64

36.64 X 1 X 126 = 4616/1

biltongbek wrote:

HERSH wrote:I wonder what odds you would get on England winning all 4?

All 4?

Not that I am a bookie, but i do like to play with numbers.

I'll use professional era win ratio's

Formula

Fiji X SA X OZ X NZ = P
100/P = ratio
ratio X W X N = Odds
W = years England have beaten all three Tri Nation teams in same year.
N = number of years england play rugby.

100% X 38.63% X 45.23% X 15.62% = 2.72%

100/2.72 = 36.64

36.64 X 1 X 126 = 4616/1

Worth a fiver then

well if we are fifth come the world cup draw Wales could be lucky and be put in Englands group

Can i please have some informed comments on my analysis above!

We will beat Fiji.

We will beat the Aussies. see above.

Were odds even to beat Boks.

other sides should be hoping england make top 4 too....

we have a lot of improvement in us bw now and 2015.....

You can say that again.

So do Australia... but we're better placed with more talented players across most positions than England at the moment.

But we haven't selected the Baby Boks that we want yet?

I want a Psychological World Cup so that we can get up to speed on that side of things before attempting the other one.

We weren't obliterated by psychology...we were obliterated by iffy players playing a non-gameplan game...playing againt the very best side and players in the world.

Call a spade a spade... it'll take a lot more than a shrink's couch to correct our issues!

HERSH wrote:But we haven't selected the Baby Boks that we want yet?

Sorry bud, no chance with these boys.

Go on we only want three to ten players, keeping them all is just greedy.

when the NewZealand and boks come over in November for Welsh rugby development cant we get a few Welsh girls to breed with them for the future

Jimmy, our prime stock is all married, sorry.

biltongbek wrote:Jimmy, our prime stock is all married, sorry.

If only rugby was more like football

In 2003 the New Zealand press called England "White Orcs on Steroids"

Would it be fair to say that Alberts, BDP and co are also on 'roids ?

Triangulation wrote:In 2003 the New Zealand press called England "White Orcs on Steroids"

Would it be fair to say that Alberts, BDP and co are also on 'roids ?

They were bread in underground labs, genetic altering and brainwashed like the "intersect"

No "roids" sorry.