Six Players England should give a chance in the Autumn

1. D.Attwood

Attwood is a player who I was surprised wasn't selected to go on tour to South Africa. As a Bath fan, he was one of our standout players this season and played the enforcer role very effectively, making big tackles and putting in the hard yards, whilst he also has soft hands and is an extremely strong scrummager. Botha had a poor tour, whilst Palmer isn't a realistic option moving towards 2015. Matt Garvey of L.Irish impressed me this season, and should also be closely looked at.

2. S.Armitage

Week in, week out this season for Toulon, Armitage has been consistently outstanding, both in defence and attack. He was voted the best player in the Top 14 this season and made the headlines for all the right reasons (unlike his brother). His ball carrying, scavenging and work-rate has been very impressive and he deserves a chance to show how much he has improved. This may mean shifting Robshaw over to 6, however the Robshaw/Armitage partnership reminds me of the Hill/Back partnership that served us so well in 2003.

3. D.Cipriani

One thing was obvious on our tour to South Africa, Farrell isn't ready to run an international backline, whilst Flood although competent at the basics at 10, isn't a world beater. Cipriani has the potential to bring out the best in the players around him, his kicking game, passing and game management is extremely strong, although he remains suspect in defence, which Lancaster may frown upon. Young Freddie Burns and George Ford's development, should also be closely monitored. Burn's impressed last season and Ford has been labelled as a potential superstar for a while now, this season could be his breakthrough season.

4. Billy Twelvetrees

This is a massive season for Twelvetrees. Barritt has been solid in the 12 jersey for England, however one dimensional in attack, with a weak passing and kicking game. Tuilagi impressed at 12 with his ball carrying, but it a more comfortable at 13 and doesn't quite yet possess a passing game. Twelvetrees could potentially be as good as Greenwood, he has an impressive passing game, an eye for the gap and the killer pass. His defence may need a bit of work, but he could be a top player and make that 12 jersey his own by the end of 2013

5. Miles Benjamin

Benjamin has always impressed me, he's extremely quick and very powerful, he's also weighs in over 16stone and is quite a physical specimen. This upcoming season he has moved to Leicester, and if he plays well for the Tigers, I expect international recognition to follow. I heard lots of clubs were interested in signing him, including Bath and i'm gutted he chose the Tigers as I reckon he will be a prolific try scorer for both club and country.

6. Jamie George

Despite Tom Youngs being selected ahead of him to go on tour with England to South Africa, I believe George could be the best young English hooker around. He is currently being tutored by two of South Africa's finest hookers in John Smit and Schalk Britz and is rated very highly at Safacens. His leadership has impressed, his lineout is top notch, scrummaging impressive and work-rate around the field also commended. He's destined for big things and could oust Hartley as the first choice hooker for England, by the end of 2013.

Thoughts?

Any particular reason for the dig at Delon? Stopped reading after that.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Any particular reason for the dig at Delon? Stopped reading after that.

Could be because Delon's a knob.

Interesting choices...and whilst i agree with you...(maybe not with Cipriani - lets see how he goes) i think the problem we have is too many players at times - and seemingly the best all being young and not quite nailed on starters for their clubs...

For the players you;ve listed...there are several others in the same boat...where a strong start to the season could catapult them ie:

1. D.Attwood - Garvey, Launchbury who was outstanding for Wasps all season.

2. S.Armitage - Kvesic, Will Welch, Wood back from injury,

3. D.Cipriani - Ford, Burns, hell if we stay up...even Hodgson or Catterick could push forward with strong starts to the season...they're talented kids.

4. Billy Twelvetrees - Maybe the one position we are missing a real playmaker...most are boshers...ie Fitzpatrick

5. Miles Benjamin - I think Pietersen for SA showed me once again the value of a big powerful guy with pace running good lines. Miles could be that man...equally Thompstone, Ojo is still quality, and Johnny May

6. Jamie George - Youngs should take the spot at leicester...Lindsay has already had a strong season under his belt and finished as first choice due to Webbers injury. Add in Gray...and theres gonna be competition...

I mentioned on another thread that we dont have a settled core of first choicers...with challengers biting their heals keeping them playing at their best...and i stick by that.
BUT i do think this season will go a big way towards changing that.

1. Yes, definitely
2. Not while he's in France
3. Not til he's proven he can tackle, control the pace of a game and stay on the back pages of the papers
4. Yes
5. Maybe, others ahead of him though, moving to Leicester will obviously help his international chances
6. Not til he is at least top 2 in his position at his club

Agree totally with Attwood and Armitage. Kvesic is not yet ready for the senior international set up. He suspect he may leapfrog Abbott at Wuss to take the starting 7 shirt there.
Cipriani can be brilliant, but my word he can be absolutely dire.
I too think that Twelvetrees could be an answer to our midfield conundrum.
I do not see Miles as an international winger. He is a terrific defensive winger, but has lost an important yard of pace with his bulking up. He will benefit from seeing more ball at Tigers, however, his reputation has lasted longer than his performances. Garvey was a far more dangerous winger at Wuss and no one ever mentions him - and that is a perfect example of how Miles has been living off an old reputation. At Wuss we will miss Garvey terribly, I do not think Miles will be such a loss, but he is a terrific lad who I wish well and hope to be proved very wrong.

There's no way that anyone who has watched Cipriani play for Melbourne in the last year could possibly recommend him for the international shirt. The only notable part of his game of late has been the hang time on his kicks.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Any particular reason for the dig at Delon? Stopped reading after that.

If there is one player who deserves a 'dig' then its Delon Armitage.

robshaw4england wrote:1. D.Attwood

Attwood is a player who I was surprised wasn't selected to go on tour to South Africa. As a Bath fan, he was one of our standout players this season and played the enforcer role very effectively, making big tackles and putting in the hard yards, whilst he also has soft hands and is an extremely strong scrummager. Botha had a poor tour, whilst Palmer isn't a realistic option moving towards 2015. Matt Garvey of L.Irish impressed me this season, and should also be closely looked at.

Thoughts?

He was outplayed last season by Caldwell who is 17th in line for an Ireland place

toml wrote:

robshaw4england wrote:1. D.Attwood

Attwood is a player who I was surprised wasn't selected to go on tour to South Africa. As a Bath fan, he was one of our standout players this season and played the enforcer role very effectively, making big tackles and putting in the hard yards, whilst he also has soft hands and is an extremely strong scrummager. Botha had a poor tour, whilst Palmer isn't a realistic option moving towards 2015. Matt Garvey of L.Irish impressed me this season, and should also be closely looked at.

Thoughts?

He was outplayed last season by Caldwell who is 17th in line for an Ireland place

Well that just shows how bad the Irish selection policy is, maybe if they bumped him up the order theyd lose by only 50 points

toml wrote:

robshaw4england wrote:1. D.Attwood

Attwood is a player who I was surprised wasn't selected to go on tour to South Africa. As a Bath fan, he was one of our standout players this season and played the enforcer role very effectively, making big tackles and putting in the hard yards, whilst he also has soft hands and is an extremely strong scrummager. Botha had a poor tour, whilst Palmer isn't a realistic option moving towards 2015. Matt Garvey of L.Irish impressed me this season, and should also be closely looked at.

Thoughts?

He was outplayed last season by Caldwell who is 17th in line for an Ireland place

Now THAT is why the Aviva Premiership is the best tournament in the world. Even an Irish (I'm guessing Ulster from a quick look at posting history) fan watches all of Bath's games and they're only a bottom 6 team. Makes me proud

HammerofThunor wrote:

toml wrote:

robshaw4england wrote:1. D.Attwood

Attwood is a player who I was surprised wasn't selected to go on tour to South Africa. As a Bath fan, he was one of our standout players this season and played the enforcer role very effectively, making big tackles and putting in the hard yards, whilst he also has soft hands and is an extremely strong scrummager. Botha had a poor tour, whilst Palmer isn't a realistic option moving towards 2015. Matt Garvey of L.Irish impressed me this season, and should also be closely looked at.

Thoughts?

He was outplayed last season by Caldwell who is 17th in line for an Ireland place

Now THAT is why the Aviva Premiership is the best tournament in the world. Even an Irish (I'm guessing Ulster from a quick look at posting history) fan watches all of Bath's games and they're only a bottom 6 team. Makes me proud

Haha or else he was voted their forward of the season...

Caldwell Bath forward of the season??

No wonder they are bottom 6 in the premiership.

tooboredtowork wrote:Agree totally with Attwood and Armitage. Kvesic is not yet ready for the senior international set up. He suspect he may leapfrog Abbott at Wuss to take the starting 7 shirt there.
Cipriani can be brilliant, but my word he can be absolutely dire.
I too think that Twelvetrees could be an answer to our midfield conundrum.
I do not see Miles as an international winger. He is a terrific defensive winger, but has lost an important yard of pace with his bulking up. He will benefit from seeing more ball at Tigers, however, his reputation has lasted longer than his performances. Garvey was a far more dangerous winger at Wuss and no one ever mentions him - and that is a perfect example of how Miles has been living off an old reputation. At Wuss we will miss Garvey terribly, I do not think Miles will be such a loss, but he is a terrific lad who I wish well and hope to be proved very wrong.

With regards to Kvesic I was merely trying to show how wide open many of the positions are and I said a good or strong start to the season could see a number of outsiders catapult into the frame.....

I really feel that Twelvetrees should be in the England squad sooner rather than later, the coaches could then work of his defence to make him a more rounded player.

Cipriani still needs to prove that he is good enough in defence before he is called up to the England squad.

England need a big enforcer lock, and I would be happy with either Garvey or Attwood there.

Haven't seen much of Benjamin and we really need our young hookers to get to first choice at their clubs so that they can start playing regularly.

The problem with Cipriani is that he went down to AUS to improve his game but I just don't see any development.

He still can't tackle... and worst of all, he lacks bravery in the tackle... without it you will struggle to become a good tackler.

The rebels instantly played better without him even though they had injuries to O'Connor & Beale etc. He wasn't cutting open defences for anyone else bar himself... sure he could see a gap for himself but its not good enough for someone sitting at pivot.
His private life continued to plagued him also.. he ain't ever going to shed that... he's just too individually minded to play 10.

On Armitage I think it will be very difficult for anyone to break into the ENG backrow. They have a lot of players of good quality.. Croft, Wood, Haskell, Johnson, Robshaw, Morgan etc.
Take out Croft and ENG lose a vital lineout option, the way ENG play he is near impossible to replace. Robshaw is the captain so will stay until injured and ENG find a better combination/captain. That leave no.8 and Armitage ain't that.

Haskell was a trojan last weekend... Probably put in the best backrow performance for ENG over the whole series. Put in well over 20 tackles and stopped SA's forward momentum which kept ENG in the game. Yet no one is suggesting he should oust Croft, Robshaw or Morgan.

Armitage will need a bit of luck to get a shirt and then wil have to fight tooth and nail to keep it. Probably no better than 8th choice at the moment for the 3 positions.

Fa actually I was massively imprssed with haskell...particularly his physicality....he was monstrous. I would start him over croft if we trusted second row lineout and had an 8 who could jump.

Robshaw4England all those players you mention have to earn the chance.

Giving them a chance on a platter is not good.

1.Needs to be playing well and consistently.


2.Needs to come back to England IMO to be considered.

3.Must show that his weaknesses like tackling and basic errors are cut out. Also big performances with Sale.


4. Has to make the Gloucester 12 shirt his own and be one of the key men in the backline. He has a lot of exciting players around him.

5.Best chance of the lot IMO. Should get plenty of try scoring opportunities with Leicester. He needs to score tries and shine.

6.Has to get more gametime. Going to be tough with Brits and Smit in front of him. Other hookers are ahead of him courtesy of getting more opportunities.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Fa actually I was massively imprssed with haskell...particularly his physicality....he was monstrous. I would start him over croft if we trusted second row lineout and had an 8 who could jump.

I like the idea of that.

What about:

4 Attwood
5 Lawes
6 Haskell
7 Robshaw
8 Gibson/Gray

I do not think any of the 6 named players should be given a chance in the Autumn.

Attwood - I hope he starts the season well as I want to see him involved.

Steffon - he has never been outstanding in any Toulon match I have seen, well not in anything other than short bursts. He does not look fit enough to play test rugby. Shifting Robshaw to 6 would be a mistake.

Cipriani - We shall see, but he needs to impress in AP and HC before we talk about England.

36 - A good start for Glaws may see him involved and he will enjoy playing 12 regularly. I am still not sure how good he is and whether it is hype over substance.

Benjamin - Lets see how he goes at a new club. As yet there has been nothing to demand inclusion.

George - Needs game time. Will not get enough to be considered in the Autumn

I think lindsay and youngs will be ahead of George in terms of game time this season....but we will see. Three real prospects, lets hope they come through...

All of those mentioned bar 1 should be or are already in with a shout of the national setup - even if its the 2nd tier.

Cips, as another poster mentioned. If anyone has seen him play for the Rebels then there is nothing to merit an instant call up!
Inconsistent is a good word for him. There are many others that can be used too.
His defence doesnt appear to have improved at all from when he was with wasps.

Steff Armitage though is someone that must be called up. You simply cant ignore someone thats voted T14 player of the year. He is pulling up trees in France and should at least be given another crack at the national team.
(But, he needs to have a solid platform to launch from).

1st game in the Autumn - would love a pack of
Corbisiero
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Palmer
Robshaw
Armitage
Morgan

Bench of -
Croft/Wood, Marler, Attwood, Tom Youngs

Im a big fan of armitage and think he should have toured however Id much rather have haskell and robshaw on the flanks now.....if crofts not there for his lineout.

A back row containing Armitage and Morgan who only perform in small bursts puts a lot of pressure on Robshaw to cover for them.

Armitage is overweight, not fit enough and the sort of player who will always shine at club level.

Watching Haskell tonight, I thought that was his best game since he has been in New Zealand. Now that he's just getting the hang of it he 's going to be going back home.

LT - I thought that of Waldrom though and he managed to step up for the 3rd test.
I just think that he deserves another shot - even if only an impact off the bench.

Morgan I agree though needs to work on fitness.
Croft/Wood - lets also see what they are like after coming back from injury.
Haskell is coming into some good form it seems too.

Plenty of competition is always good.

It is amazing how people forget how good Croft was before he got injured. He was getting his Lions form back, the guy put in arguably the performance of the 6 nations against France, was brilliant against Ireland, save a mess up on a pass, and yet he is being disregarded for James Haskell?

If we assume Armitage is out of the picture due to his Franceness then really the 3 Flankers (assuming fitness) should be Robshaw Croft and Haskell. Its then down to Morgan to prove hes an 80 minute player to come in at 8, otherwise Waldrom is the obvious choice (with Haskell offering cover.
Thats my 4 man backrow.

Im not too convinced about the idea of significant amounts of player experimentation in the AIs, the teamk needs to focus on becoming a team rather than a collection of individuals standing around being confused as to why their chums are running the other way. Certainly in attack, in defence they seem well organised, but attack is still as disorganised as it was in the 6ns...which to be fair on Farrell may partly excuse his over reliance on the boot.

Certainly room to try someone out in the second row though, and a third FH does need to be found for the squad at least ... thats going to be ford or burn unless cipriani pulls off something remarkable in the first few games back.

Looseheaded wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Any particular reason for the dig at Delon? Stopped reading after that.

Could be because Delon's a knob.

+1

I dont think anyone forgets how good Croft was just before injury. But, he needs gametime and sometimes after re-hab players arent the same as they were before.
I sincelerly hope that Croft returns in excellent form - as you say killer, Croft was motoring before Easter caught him at a funny angle!

HammerofThunor wrote:

toml wrote:

robshaw4england wrote:1. D.Attwood

Attwood is a player who I was surprised wasn't selected to go on tour to South Africa. As a Bath fan, he was one of our standout players this season and played the enforcer role very effectively, making big tackles and putting in the hard yards, whilst he also has soft hands and is an extremely strong scrummager. Botha had a poor tour, whilst Palmer isn't a realistic option moving towards 2015. Matt Garvey of L.Irish impressed me this season, and should also be closely looked at.

Thoughts?

He was outplayed last season by Caldwell who is 17th in line for an Ireland place

Now THAT is why the Aviva Premiership is the best tournament in the world. Even an Irish (I'm guessing Ulster from a quick look at posting history) fan watches all of Bath's games and they're only a bottom 6 team. Makes me proud

Fair enough propdavid but Zander didn't mention anything about that, he just stated that he would start Haskell over Croft if we had jumpers in the second row which I personally don't agree with.

How about trying out Haskell at 8??? I believe thats where he is going to play at Wasps.... what a backrow they'll have next season with Johnson (Ashley) joining also.

Croft, Robshaw & Haskell.. if it works that would be one hell of a backrow.

Robshaw & Haskell were shore up the defence, Croft will give ENG a real advantage in the lineout and all 3 have ball carrying qualities.

It is a question on Haskell's ability at 8, he will need to prove a calmness and Nick Easter type composure to beat off Waldrom & Morgan.

Haskell has gained a lot of respect in the SH this year... he's shut up, been a team man all year and done what his coach has asked him to do. He'll come back a far better player than before and is peaking in perfect time for a late charge for Lions selection.

Id go with that FA without hesitation. I do,want to see if Wood cones back and if Fearns can get back to his fittest best cos they will be in the mix.

If Haskell plays at 8 and can control the ball in a scrum then he can be considered an 8. Until then he's a flanker that can cover 8 in an emergency.


IMO

Equo Troiano wrote:

Looseheaded wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Any particular reason for the dig at Delon? Stopped reading after that.

Could be because Delon's a knob.

+1

Make him share a room with care then

Fearns looked good in the mid week matches... held his hands up but to be honest he's either going to have to put in absolutely barnstorming performances or have a bit of luck with injuries to players higher up the pecking order.

fa0019 wrote:How about trying out Haskell at 8??? I believe thats where he is going to play at Wasps.... what a backrow they'll have next season with Johnson (Ashley) joining also.

Croft, Robshaw & Haskell.. if it works that would be one hell of a backrow.

Robshaw & Haskell were shore up the defence, Croft will give ENG a real advantage in the lineout and all 3 have ball carrying qualities.

It is a question on Haskell's ability at 8, he will need to prove a calmness and Nick Easter type composure to beat off Waldrom & Morgan.

Haskell has gained a lot of respect in the SH this year... he's shut up, been a team man all year and done what his coach has asked him to do. He'll come back a far better player than before and is peaking in perfect time for a late charge for Lions selection.

His effort and commitment cannot be faulted. However, what he lacks, and will always lack is a rugby brain. If he had that, he'd be the complete player. In my opinion of course.

Equo Troiano wrote:

fa0019 wrote:How about trying out Haskell at 8??? I believe thats where he is going to play at Wasps.... what a backrow they'll have next season with Johnson (Ashley) joining also.

Croft, Robshaw & Haskell.. if it works that would be one hell of a backrow.

Robshaw & Haskell were shore up the defence, Croft will give ENG a real advantage in the lineout and all 3 have ball carrying qualities.

It is a question on Haskell's ability at 8, he will need to prove a calmness and Nick Easter type composure to beat off Waldrom & Morgan.

Haskell has gained a lot of respect in the SH this year... he's shut up, been a team man all year and done what his coach has asked him to do. He'll come back a far better player than before and is peaking in perfect time for a late charge for Lions selection.

His effort and commitment cannot be faulted. However, what he lacks, and will always lack is a rugby brain. If he had that, he'd be the complete player. In my opinion of course.

NOt sure sop much now. I think he is improving...he was monstrous in the final test. If he can give that kind of perfromance consistantly then i would make a place for him. Possibly at 8 if Morgan remains unfit??? That would open the door for Croft and Robshaw as mentioned above...and that would be a very interesting back row.

I know he's not a fashionable player, but surely Waldrom deserves a mention in these debates regarding who should play 8 for England. He was a considerable improvement on Ben Morgan this summer, for whom the term "cart horse" would have been unfairly complimentary.

I was also impressed with Haskell though, and it strikes me that the best fit for England would be to consider him a number 8. Robshaw played very well at 7, and I think he and Tom Wood would be a very good 6 and 7 combination.

Some really nice options coming through for England. Another who deserves a mention is Tom Johnson, who stood up admirably to the South Africans over the three matches, and improved as the tour went on.

As for the OP, I'm a big fan of Cipriani, but let's just wait and see how he gets on at Sale.

FES

I think the problem with Waldrom like Hape, Vainikolo etc is his claim to be English doesnt rest easy with English fans...and we would rather see another player in there....and many also feel the likes of Morgan, Haskell, Fearns, Crane are all actually better.

LondonTiger wrote:Steffon - he has never been outstanding in any Toulon match I have seen, well not in anything other than short bursts. He does not look fit enough to play test rugby.

Player of the year Top 14.

I do understand that and sympathise, but a debate at present as to whether Waldrom is better than Morgan is an extremely short debate.

Waldrom was in a different league, and gave England considerably more go forward and energy.

A number of posters have said we Steffon Armitage should not be tries because it would mean displacing Robshaw. However players get injured and we need tow or three players in every position.

But then in the 6 nations Morgan was hailed as Englands best find along with Farrell.

Now we hate them.

We're realistically looking at:

Robshaw
Haskell
Croft
Dowson
Morgan
Waldrom

to fill four backrow spots. Of that i'd probably start Robshaw, Hask and Morgan to begin with and bench either Croft or waldrom.

Johnson was only ever a stop gap. He did well but lacks the experience and skills of Hask and Croft.

I would quite like to see a backrow of

6. Croft
7. Robshaw
8. Haskell

run out against Fiji (we are playing Fiji right?) Just to see how Croft goes at 6 and how Hask goes at 8.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:But then in the 6 nations Morgan was hailed as Englands best find along with Farrell.

Now we hate them.

I don't hate Morgan, he was just rubbish in South Africa and should accordingly be dropped. He has the potential to be an unbelivable player, as he showed in patches in the 6 Nations, but his workrate against South Africa was shocking. He was a passenger and could not hack the intensity.

I think it's a conditioning issue rather than ability, but it needs to be rectified.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:But then in the 6 nations Morgan was hailed as Englands best find along with Farrell.

Now we hate them.

Not so Peter...

I think the areas of their games being criticised are the same areas that were raised in the 6n's and yet dont appear to have improved significantly.

Ie Attack for farrell, and Fitness for Morgan. Both critical aspects of their particular position.

I'm fairly sure there are a couple of posters who hate Farrel, but that may be due to their clubs rather then the player...