But for us, that presents the usual worries of having to manage with them not being here for close to a third of the season. Such is life. We are used to that

by Portnoy Fri 06 Jul 2012, 11:31 am

Well said Cockers.

http://www.espnscrum.com/england/rugby/story/166642.html

Ol' man river, dat ol' man river
He mus' know sumpin', but don't say nuthin'
He jes' keeps rollin'
He keeps on rollin' along

He don' plant taters, he don't plant cotton
An' dem dat plants' em is soon forgotten
But ol'man river
He jes' keeps rollin' along

by beshocked Fri 06 Jul 2012, 11:42 am

Sigh another Tigers are the greatest article. Broken Record

All hail the greatest rugby club on the planet! notworthy

I don't get it though - Cockerill and quite a lot of Leicester fans moan about the loss of players to England but in the same breath puff out their chests when they see the amount of Leicester players picked for England.

You can't have it both ways guv!

Honestly if you are used to not having your England stars stop banging on about it!

I think Leicester are a great club but seriously you don't need to shout it from the rooftops so much.

by Thomond Fri 06 Jul 2012, 11:44 am

Leicester have English players in their squad? That's news to me.

by Portnoy Fri 06 Jul 2012, 11:49 am

Some people want a 14-team Jeff. How's that going to work?

Ten teams an no playoffs could.

by Smirnoffpriest Fri 06 Jul 2012, 11:50 am

Thomond wrote:Leicester have English players in their squad? That's news to me.

I think it's more - "Leicester have 'English' players in their squad"

Very Happy

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 06 Jul 2012, 11:52 am

FFS Portnoy, never mind that the record is feicing Broken Record

, will you pls just change the feicing thing and do us all a mahoosive favour?!?! steam

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 06 Jul 2012, 11:56 am

I appreciate that they developed a few of those players but didn't the sign a handful of them too.

Can you imagine that a team that signs top quality players complaining that their players are classed among the top in the country! Well I guess that is the excuse ready for when they lose at any time during the season.

by beshocked Fri 06 Jul 2012, 11:57 am

The system as it is - just fine in my opinion. It's a good balance between internationals and club level.

We don't want to go the French way where the domestic competition becomes more important than the European competitions. Also we don't want internationals to become 2nd fiddle.

Too many games also leads to player burnout,less games is not good either though.

by Mickado Fri 06 Jul 2012, 12:11 pm

We won a HC with 14 players gone for most of the start of the season.

If you're good enough, you're good enough, but apparently, Tigers aren't good enough.

by beshocked Fri 06 Jul 2012, 12:15 pm

Let's be honest Mickado most of your top players (well the Irish ones anyway) barely play any Pro12 matches. They are molly coddled and wrapped in cotton wool for the HC. It's very effective though!

by Portnoy Fri 06 Jul 2012, 12:20 pm

Mickado wrote:We won a HC with 14 players gone for most of the start of the season.

If you're good enough, you're good enough, but apparently, Tigers aren't good enough.

HECs are not constrained by IWs Mick. And I'd agree that Tigers aren't good enough for it.

But what you say is irrelevant.

by caoimhincentre Fri 06 Jul 2012, 12:22 pm

i think the rfu should have to pay a fee to each club for the each player they supply.

by Mickado Fri 06 Jul 2012, 12:23 pm

That might be so Beshocked but Sexton (for example) still player 32 games last season (16 for Leinster, 16 for Ireland), he's got to be rested somewhere. To give some perspective, Van der Merwe has the most Leinster appearances this year, 31. So even though Sexton played in far less Pro12 games, he played in more games overall.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 06 Jul 2012, 12:26 pm

caoimhincentre wrote:i think the rfu should have to pay a fee to each club for the each player they supply.

They do, but the total is equally distributed among all 12 prem clubs

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 06 Jul 2012, 12:27 pm

Mickado wrote:That might be so Beshocked but Sexton (for example) still player 32 games last season (16 for Leinster, 16 for Ireland), he's got to be rested somewhere. To give some perspective, Van der Merwe has the most Leinster appearances this year, 31. So even though Sexton played in far less Pro12 games, he played in more games overall.

Excellent point, Mickado, wish that had been pointed out some time ago. Player welfare is a huge issue that is widely ignored by many

by Kingshu Fri 06 Jul 2012, 12:29 pm

beshocked wrote:Let's be honest Mickado most of your top players (well the Irish ones anyway) barely play any Pro12 matches. They are molly coddled and wrapped in cotton wool for the HC. It's very effective though!

They still topped the Pro 12 table at the end of the season, just got a little overstreched to do a the double.

Leinster are the yardstick by which other clubs should be mearsuring themselves.

If you don't measure up it's up to you to improve yourself

by Kingshu Fri 06 Jul 2012, 12:38 pm

actually thaking th eabove, would the English prem be better if they tightened up on player wellfare.

I know they have a set number of games a player can play but if they lowered that to say each player can play a max of 35 games in a season. (not counting playoffs)

Therefore for the elite players England will use them say up to 10 times, meaning they are free to play 25 games for their club who decide which games to use them, also means the RFU know exactly how much to compensate each club,

It would also make the Prem teams develop more depth?

by beshocked Fri 06 Jul 2012, 12:47 pm

Kingshu wrote:
beshocked wrote:Let's be honest Mickado most of your top players (well the Irish ones anyway) barely play any Pro12 matches. They are molly coddled and wrapped in cotton wool for the HC. It's very effective though!

They still topped the Pro 12 table at the end of the season, just got a little overstreched to do a the double.

Leinster are the yardstick by which other clubs should be mearsuring themselves.

If you don't measure up it's up to you to improve yourself

I agree to a certain extent. I do wonder how many understrength sides there must be in the Pro12 throughout the season that can be exploited.

by red_stag Fri 06 Jul 2012, 12:48 pm

Incy Wincy spider climbed up the water spout.
Down came the rain, and washed the spider out.
Out came the sun, and dried up all the rain
And the Incy Wincy spider climbed up the spout again.

by HammerofThunor Fri 06 Jul 2012, 12:56 pm

Kingshu wrote:actually thaking th eabove, would the English prem be better if they tightened up on player wellfare.

I know they have a set number of games a player can play but if they lowered that to say each player can play a max of 35 games in a season. (not counting playoffs)

Therefore for the elite players England will use them say up to 10 times, meaning they are free to play 25 games for their club who decide which games to use them, also means the RFU know exactly how much to compensate each club,

It would also make the Prem teams develop more depth?

They do. I think it's 32 games per year, which I'm almost certain includes Internationals.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/english/7910306.stm

I don't see what's wrong with the article (original one). Cockerill was asked about the EPS and Saxons players. Said they're doing well to provide so many players. Not "we're awesome at developing players" or anything like that. Just that he was happy for the players that are named. Then, right at the very end he mentions that there's also a downside, that they lose those players for a significant portion of the year without any room made in the salary cap for their replacements.

I think there are a maximum number of games in the premiership of:

22+2 AP
6+3 HEC/ACC
5+2 LV (not sure about this one)

I make that out to be 33+7 (40 over all). Most of the 1st team players don't play in the LV (unless they're recovering or not getting game time) so realistically it's more like 28+5. So most non-international players will play a maximum of 33 games. The EPS guy have 2 or 3 forced rest weekends during the season (to make up for the summer games).

That can't be right can it?

by caoimhincentre Fri 06 Jul 2012, 1:14 pm

red_stag wrote:Incy Wincy spider climbed up the water spout.
Down came the rain, and washed the spider out.
Out came the sun, and dried up all the rain
And the Incy Wincy spider climbed up the spout again.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 06 Jul 2012, 1:18 pm

Old Mother Portnoy
Went to the cupboard
To get her poor tigger a bone,
When she got there
The cupboard was bare
So the poor little tigger had none.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 06 Jul 2012, 1:24 pm

or my personal favourite:

Little Dai Portnoy sat in the corner
Eating his Humble pie,
He put in his thumb and pulled out a plum
And said "Where is that feicer Lancaster?!"

by Smirnoffpriest Fri 06 Jul 2012, 1:26 pm

beshocked wrote:Let's be honest Mickado most of your top players (well the Irish ones anyway) barely play any Pro12 matches. They are molly coddled and wrapped in cotton wool for the HC. It's very effective though!

You've got to love statements like this don't you? The Rabo internationals usually play between 9-14 games, I checked the Leicester stats and suprise, suprise their internationals played between 10-14 games.

It's called squad rotation and every team in the world does it (of course the Irish are forced to do it, but then again so are the English as their agreement means the EPS players will/could miss a third of the club season)

by Portnoy Fri 06 Jul 2012, 2:34 pm

Overall EPS commitments:

England:

Bath 1 (3%)
Exeter 1 (3%)
Gloucester 2 (6%)
Harlequins 3 (9%)
Leicester 8 (25%)
L Irish 2 (6%)
L Wasps 1 (3%)
L Welsh 0 (0%)
Northampton 6 (19%)
Sale 0 (0%)
Saracens 6 (19%)
Worcester 0 (0%)

Saxons:

Bath 5 (16%)
Exeter 0 (0%)
Gloucester 3 (9%)
Harlequins 4 (13%)
Leicester 5 (16%)
L Irish 2 (6%)
L Wasps 4 (13%)
L Welsh 0 (0%)
Northampton 2 (6%)
Sale 3 (9%)
Saracens 2 (6%)
Worcester 0 (0%)

EPS overall:

Bath 6 (9%)
Exeter 1 (2%)
Gloucester 5 (8%)
Harlequins 7 (11%)
Leicester 13 (20%)
L Irish 4 (6%)
L Wasps 5 (16%)
L Welsh 0 (0%)
Northampton 8 (13%)
Sale 3 (5%)
Saracens 8 (13%)
Worcester 2 (3%)

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 06 Jul 2012, 2:38 pm

Jack and Jill went up the hill
To fetch a pail of water.
Jack fell down and broke his crown,
And Jill came tumbling after.

Up Jack got and home did trot,
As fast as he could caper;
And went to bed and bound his head
With vinegar and brown paper.

Then Jill came in, and she did grin,
To see Jack's paper plaster;
Her mother whipt her, across her knee,
For laughing at Jack's disaster.

by Portnoy Fri 06 Jul 2012, 2:43 pm

Sticks and stones As.

That's a proper child's response...

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 06 Jul 2012, 2:47 pm

Sorry, but you do make me larf! In your OP you made use of lyrics - I have merely extended this to the usage of nursery rhymes, more in keeping with your general contributions these days.

If you paid any attention to what other posters contribute rather than fretting about your bugbears, you'd have noticed https://www.606v2.com/t32123-eps-saxons-development-bragging-rights (not to mention this: https://www.606v2.com/t31527-england-eps) and seen that your most recent post is a REPEAT (yes, another one)

by HongKongCherry Fri 06 Jul 2012, 2:52 pm

Portnoy dear boy, we're all entitled to our own opinions but is there really any need to post near daily discussions about how the whole rugby world is against Leicester?

We all know your thoughts; we've had countless discussions about them, but as you're a man who appears to have a decent level of intelligence, please spare us your decent into being a WUM and just move on. Hug

by formerly known as Sam Fri 06 Jul 2012, 2:52 pm

appreciate that they developed a few of those players but didn't the sign a handful of them too.

SS that's they way it has always been. Tigers started out as an invitational side using Leicestershire clubs as it's feeder teams. Even the great early 2000s team had players like Ben Kay who signed from Liverpool and Austin Healey who signed from Orrell. Tigers are good at finding hidden gems and making them shine. What age they find those gems at varies, some are brought in from an early age (e.g. Youngs and Ford who were both given their first Tigers cap at 16) or sometimes they are older like Ed Slater who was picked up at 21 from an Aussie semi pro team (a born and bred Leicester boy who moved away in his early teens).

They do, but the total is equally distributed among all 12 prem clubs

Not true As, or it didn't used to be. I think it's still the same system whereby the income is smoothed so that everybody gets some but not everybody gets the same. LW will receive less than Tigers but they will still receive some despite not providing any players to England.

you're good enough, you're good enough, but apparently, Tigers aren't good enough

No they were not Mickado and there's no complaints here. The injuries and callups set us back and we dealt with that situation poorly and never recovered. The only bright point was that some of the younger guys learnt from those first few nightmare games and improved enough to win us the LV Cup. Need some of them to step up further this season. Hopefully we'll have a full squad for more of the year and we can rotate more (in the Leinster style) so that the likes of Flood and Youngs are not so prone to injury (I was ripping my hair out when Flood got injured vs Bath having said that he should have been rested for at least a week before hand).

Got some cracking players I hope we will be able to unleash to their full potential on England Europe next season though.

by **Ozzy3213** Fri 06 Jul 2012, 2:53 pm

What HKC said

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 06 Jul 2012, 2:53 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
appreciate that they developed a few of those players but didn't the sign a handful of them too.

SS that's they way it has always been. Tigers started out as an invitational side using Leicestershire clubs as it's feeder teams. Even the great early 2000s team had players like Ben Kay who signed from Liverpool and Austin Healey who signed from Orrell. Tigers are good at finding hidden gems and making them shine. What age they find those gems at varies, some are brought in from an early age (e.g. Youngs and Ford who were both given their first Tigers cap at 16) or sometimes they are older like Ed Slater who was picked up at 21 from an Aussie semi pro team (a born and bred Leicester boy who moved away in his early teens).

They do, but the total is equally distributed among all 12 prem clubs

Not true As, or it didn't used to be. I think it's still the same system whereby the income is smoothed so that everybody gets some but not everybody gets the same. LW will receive less than Tigers but they will still receive some despite not providing any players to England.

you're good enough, you're good enough, but apparently, Tigers aren't good enough

No they were not Mickado and there's no complaints here. The injuries and callups set us back and we dealt with that situation poorly and never recovered. The only bright point was that some of the younger guys learnt from those first few nightmare games and improved enough to win us the LV Cup. Need some of them to step up further this season. Hopefully we'll have a full squad for more of the year and we can rotate more (in the Leinster style) so that the likes of Flood and Youngs are not so prone to injury (I was ripping my hair out when Flood got injured vs Bath having said that he should have been rested for at least a week before hand).

Got some cracking players I hope we will be able to unleash to their full potential on England Europe next season though.

Right you are, Sam, that sounds fairer, if not perfect, at least

by **Ozzy3213** Fri 06 Jul 2012, 2:56 pm

Sam, I suspect that Tigers squad rotation will be better managed this year and they are the only AP team that I would happily put money on at this stage to definitely finish in the top 4 at the end of the season.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 06 Jul 2012, 2:58 pm

Right you are, Sam, that sounds fairer, if not perfect, at least

Used to be a chap on the old 606 called Juggler who had a massive amount of random rugby knowledge and stats who corrected me at length when I said the same thing. Wish I'd saved the post as he explained it better than me.

Sam, I suspect that Tigers squad rotation will be better managed this year and they are the only AP team that I would happily put money on at this stage to definitely finish in the top 4 at the end of the season

Possibly. The amount of players called into the EPS will be a concern to Cockers though. We've already brought in a 4th choice 10 with experience in case England select both Flood and Ford (or injuries prevail). It'll be tough.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 06 Jul 2012, 3:01 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Right you are, Sam, that sounds fairer, if not perfect, at least

Used to be a chap on the old 606 called Juggler who had a massive amount of random rugby knowledge and stats who corrected me at length when I said the same thing. Wish I'd saved the post as he explained it better than me.

Sam, I suspect that Tigers squad rotation will be better managed this year and they are the only AP team that I would happily put money on at this stage to definitely finish in the top 4 at the end of the season

Possibly. The amount of players called into the EPS will be a concern to Cockers though. We've already brought in a 4th choice 10 with experience in case England select both Flood and Ford (or injuries prevail). It'll be tough.

Oh yeah, he's over on Rugby Rebels now

by **Ozzy3213** Fri 06 Jul 2012, 3:04 pm

I think it is unlikely that Lancaster will take Flood and Ford this season. I suspect Ford is there for training and exposure but I would be surprised if he dons a senior England jersey this season.

Tigers have the experience and depth for the calls up not to impact them to badly. Quins and Saints are the ones that it may have more of an effect on in my opinion.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri 06 Jul 2012, 3:08 pm

Portnoy wrote:Overall EPS commitments:

England:

Bath 1 (3%)
Exeter 1 (3%)
Gloucester 2 (6%)
Harlequins 3 (9%)
Leicester 8 (25%)
L Irish 2 (6%)
L Wasps 1 (3%)
L Welsh 0 (0%)
Northampton 6 (19%)
Sale 0 (0%)
Saracens 6 (19%)
Worcester 0 (0%)

Saxons:

Bath 5 (16%)
Exeter 0 (0%)
Gloucester 3 (9%)
Harlequins 4 (13%)
Leicester 5 (16%)
L Irish 2 (6%)
L Wasps 4 (13%)
L Welsh 0 (0%)
Northampton 2 (6%)
Sale 3 (9%)
Saracens 2 (6%)
Worcester 0 (0%)

EPS overall:

Bath 6 (9%)
Exeter 1 (2%)
Gloucester 5 (8%)
Harlequins 7 (11%)
Leicester 13 (20%)
L Irish 4 (6%)
L Wasps 5 (16%)
L Welsh 0 (0%)
Northampton 8 (13%)
Sale 3 (5%)
Saracens 8 (13%)
Worcester 2 (3%)

And if you going to post repetitive XXXXX, then can you at least get it right? Rolling Eyes

by formerly known as Sam Fri 06 Jul 2012, 3:14 pm

Tigers have the experience and depth for the calls up not to impact them to badly. Quins and Saints are the ones that it may have more of an effect on in my opinion.

In most areas. Second row is a slight concern if we lose Parling to England and Deacon to England/injury then we are still ok with Slater, Kitchener and Andrew the Bok chappy who's never played in the AP having come over from the French Division 2. Should anything happen to those 3 then we're down to players in their teens or backrowers. Hooker could be an issue as well with Hawkins injury issues, Tom Youngs on the edge of the England squad and Chuter not getting any younger. Could be a big ask of Jimmy Stevens to start a few AP games at just 21.

We should be good though and I'm looking forward to it, some scores to settle after last season!

by **Ozzy3213** Fri 06 Jul 2012, 3:18 pm

What about Mafi in the engine room? and Calum Green, or has he left? Also I doubt Deacon will get called up and Saxons players won't miss any AP will games will they? I thought their fixtures during the 6 Nations are scheduled on the LV Cup weekends.

by red_stag Fri 06 Jul 2012, 3:28 pm

FFS Portnoy just tell us once and for all. What Premiership team do you support. Its a bloody mystery and I can't take the suspense.

And another question do you think there should be rugby in international windows.

by beshocked Fri 06 Jul 2012, 4:11 pm

Ozzy3213 wrote:Sam, I suspect that Tigers squad rotation will be better managed this year and they are the only AP team that I would happily put money on at this stage to definitely finish in the top 4 at the end of the season.

Wouldn't you put some on London Irish? Whistle

by formerly known as Sam Fri 06 Jul 2012, 4:13 pm

Ozzy, Mafi is lightweight in the engine room, it's similar to when Croft plays at lock in that it works as long as someone else is there to help with the grunt work. I wouldn't bet against Deacon getting called into the first team given that he adds grunt and is good in the lineout (no gain in ball carrying though), then again I also wouldn't be against him being injured again. Callum Green turned down a new deal and went to Leeds because he wanted to play every week, Cockers comment to the media was "fair enough" (no Twelvetrees situation).

If we were really stuck for a lock option Crane might cover but it's not ideal. Hopefully we won't be in that mess, we shouldn't be really.

by doctor_grey Sat 07 Jul 2012, 8:35 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Jack and Jill went up the hill
To fetch a pail of water.
Jack fell down and broke his crown,
And Jill came tumbling after.

Up Jack got and home did trot,
As fast as he could caper;
And went to bed and bound his head
With vinegar and brown paper.

Then Jill came in, and she did grin,
To see Jack's paper plaster;
Her mother whipt her, across her knee,
For laughing at Jack's disaster.

Then Jill got down and kissed Jack's crown,
Got amorous and mounted upon his belly,
But Jack sad:
"Not now, you cow", the Tigers are on the telly.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Sat 07 Jul 2012, 10:36 am

by **Notch** Sat 07 Jul 2012, 11:55 am

red_stag wrote:FFS Portnoy just tell us once and for all. What Premiership team do you support. Its a bloody mystery and I can't take the suspense.

And another question do you think there should be rugby in international windows.

Mickado was spot on when he pointed out the number of games Sexton played was more than Strauss, unfortunately with the international calendar thats the way it's going to have to be from now on. Internationals will play about 50% as much Club/Provincial rugby as their non-international colleagues.

by Feckless Rogue Sat 07 Jul 2012, 1:27 pm

To be honest, I think Cockerill is one of the biggest whingers and moaners in the game. After any defeat he starts of by saying "We're not gonna make any excuses". He then lists off about ten excuses, that he's not going to use, but is just mentioning them anyway.

I don't think he has the right mentality to take the Tigers any further. Their lack of trophies in the last couple of seasons only strengthens my opinion on him.

by HammerofThunor Sat 07 Jul 2012, 4:34 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:To be honest, I think Cockerill is one of the biggest whingers and moaners in the game. After any defeat he starts of by saying "We're not gonna make any excuses". He then lists off about ten excuses, that he's not going to use, but is just mentioning them anyway.

I don't think he has the right mentality to take the Tigers any further. Their lack of trophies in the last couple of seasons only strengthens my opinion on him.

Any examples?

by Artful_Dodger Sat 07 Jul 2012, 4:41 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:To be honest, I think Cockerill is one of the biggest whingers and moaners in the game. After any defeat he starts of by saying "We're not gonna make any excuses". He then lists off about ten excuses, that he's not going to use, but is just mentioning them anyway.

I don't think he has the right mentality to take the Tigers any further. Their lack of trophies in the last couple of seasons only strengthens my opinion on him.

Any examples?

Yeh - nearly every match the Tigers have lost for the last 3 seasons.

by HammerofThunor Sat 07 Jul 2012, 5:06 pm

I meant something a bit more concrete than that.

by Artful_Dodger Sat 07 Jul 2012, 6:17 pm

I'll give Cockerill his dues - when Tigers got hit for 35 by Ulster in the HC he said that there wasn't one area of the game that Tigers had parity. However, most of his post match interviews are in stark contrast to that.

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