England EPS

Ok, the tour is over. The EPS for the 2012/13 season will be announced in early July (I think). It's named completely afresh and can have 5 changes in Jan 13 for the 6 nations. Who would be in you 32?

Injured players can be replaced no problem.

Actual EPS

Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Alex Corbisiero (London Irish)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Matt Stevens (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Rob Webber (Bath)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Saxons

Nathan Catt (Bath)
Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Louis Deacon (Leicester Tigers)
Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints)
Carl Fearns (Bath)
James Gaskell (Sale Sharks)
Jamie Gibson (London Irish)
Joe Gray (Harlequins)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Matt Mullan (Worcester Warriors)
David Paice (London Irish)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
David Wilson (Bath)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)
Nick Abendanon (Bath)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Tom Biggs (Bath)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester)
George Ford (Leicester Tigers)
George Lowe (Harlequins)
Jonny May (Gloucester)
Rob Miller (Sale Sharks)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens).

PDJ, Corbs, Marler, Cole,+Another one for the sake of it
Youngs, Hartley
Attwood' Lawes, Parling, A tin of custard
Haskell, Wood,Croft, Robshaw, Waldrom, The Fat Welsh Kid
Care Youngs
Flood Farrell
Barrit, Manu, 36, JJ
Monye, Ashton, Whoever looked good on TV last week
Foden Brown Goode

Wasn't it named completely afresh for the summer tour?

If I had free rein I'd take a punt on...


EPS
Hartley, Youngs, Webber
Corbisero, Cole, Marler, Thomas/Harden
Lawes, Launchbury, Kitchener, Garvey/Attwood
Robshaw, Croft, Wood, Crane, Haskell, Armitage
Youngs, Care, Dickson
Flood, Ford/Burns
Twelvetrees, Barritt, Tuilagi, Joseph
Ashton, May, Sharples
Foden, Brown, Goode


Saxons
Gray, George, Lindsay
Thomas/Harden, Mullan, Wood, Wilson/PDJ
Garvey/Attwood, Matthews, Slater, Robson/Parling
Kvesic, Fearns, Morgan, Guest, Johnson, Wallace/Gibson
Dickson, Simpson, Harrison
Ford/Burns, Farrell
Allen, JTH, Trinder, Lowe
Benjamin, Wade, Daly, Yarde
Homer, Ransom

My EPS Squad as follows;

Hartley, Youngs, Webber
Corbisero, Cole, Marler, Harden, Mullen
Lawes, Garvey, Attwood. Parling
Robshaw, Croft, Wood, Haskell, Armitage, Morgan
Youngs, Care,
Flood, Ford, Farrell
Barratt, Allen, Tuilagi, Joseph
Ashton, May, Sharples
Foden, Goode

I would also like to see Launchbury, Henry Thomas, Jamie George, Kvesic, Ferns, Simpson, Wallace, Yarde, Daly to be in the saxons and taken on next summer's tour.

i expect the following players definatley:

Hartley, webber
cole, marler, corbs
Lawes, parling, palmer
robshaw, croft, wood, morgan, waldrom
youngs, care, dickson
flood, farrel
barritt, tuilagi,
ashton,
foden, brown, goode

That leaves 8 more;

A hooker- hopefully youngs
2 props- PDJ or stevens for versitilty and a tight head?
1 lock- botha/attwood/robson/kitchener or garvey
1 backrow- haskell. armitage? or launchberry

then in the backs we need a couple of options at centre and some on the wing, id like to see : wade, twelvetrees and joseph

Cole, Corbisiero, Marler,Thomas
Hartley, Webber, TBC
Lawes, Parling, Palmer, Attwood
Croft, Wood, Robshaw,Morgan, Waldrom, Johnson

Youngs, Care, Dickson
Flood, Farrell
Barritt, Manu, Joseph, TBC
Ashton, Wade, Foden, Brown, Goode, May

I have left two vacancies at Hooker and Centre.

EPS:

Props: Alex Corbisiero, Joe Marler, Dan Cole, Rupert Harden (Henry Thomas training with the squad for experience.)
Hooker: Dylan Hartley, Tom Youngs and Joe Gray
Second Row: Courtney Lawes, Geoff Parling, Matt Garvey, Dave Attwood (Joe Launchbury training with the squad)
Flankers: Tom Croft, Tom Johnson, James Haskell, Chris Robshaw and Tom Wood (Matt Kvesic or Luke Wallace to train with the squad for experience.)
No.8: Ben Morgan, Thomas Waldrom (Would also like to see how Jordan Crane is when he gets back)

Scrum Half: Ben Youngs, Danny Care and Lee Dickson
Fly Half: Toby Flood, Owen Farrell and Danny Cipriani (George Ford to train with the squad)
Centres: Brad Barritt, Billy Twelvetrees, Manu Tuilagi and Jonathon Joseph
Wing: Chris Ashton, Jonny May, Ugo Monye
Fullback: Ben Foden, Alex Goode


SAXONS:

Props: Matt Mullan (Worcester) Max Lahiff (London Irish), Henry Thomas (Sale), Kieran Brookes (Leicester), Kyle Sinkler (Harlequins)
Hooker: Rob Webber (Bath), Jamie George (Saracens), Mike Haywood (Northampton) or Tom Lindsay (Wasps)
Second Row: Graham Kitchener (Leicester), Ed Slater (Leicester), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Tom Savage (Gloucester) or George Kruis (Saracens)
Back-row: Carl Fearns (Bath), Matt Kvesic, Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Will Welch (Newcastle), Jamie Gibson (London Irish) and Alex Gray (London Irish)

Scrum Half: Karl Dickson (Harlequins), Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Fly Half: George Ford (Leicester), Freddie Burns (Gloucester), Stephen Myler (Northampton)
Centres: Henry Trinder (Gloucester), Anthony Allen, Jordan Turner Hall (Harlequins) and Ryan Mills (Gloucester)
Wing: Christian Wade (Wasps), James Short (Saracens), George Lowe- Covering centre too (Harlequins)
Fullback: Rob Miller (Sale), Tom Homer (London Irish)

Cumbrian

Cipriani???

As it stands I'd have Ford way ahead of him. Not saying he can't get back in the squad with a good season, but I can't see any reason to pick him as it stands.

Ive said before this year is going to be critical for England...so many players seriously need to prove themselves....

Garvey - can he do it.
Attwood - Needs to rediscover his real game.
Morgan & Fearns - Fitness
Ford - Can he hack this level with its physicality.
Youngs, Lindsay, George - Can they challenge Hartley.
etc etc etc

We shouldnt name it too soon....

thomh wrote:Cumbrian

Cipriani???

As it stands I'd have Ford way ahead of him. Not saying he can't get back in the squad with a good season, but I can't see any reason to pick him as it stands.

Yep Cipriani. People always talk about him as being overrated, I think it's gone so far now that he is actually being underrated by many. He is an extremely naturally gifted young player but people act like he's the Poopie they just scraped off their shoe. You're entitled to your opinion but I don't think Ford is way ahead of him. As excellent a prospect as he is, Ford is still a kid who has only started 9 times for Leicester.

Cumbrian wrote:

thomh wrote:Cumbrian

Cipriani???

As it stands I'd have Ford way ahead of him. Not saying he can't get back in the squad with a good season, but I can't see any reason to pick him as it stands.

Yep Cipriani. People always talk about him as being overrated, I think it's gone so far now that he is actually being underrated by many. He is an extremely naturally gifted young player but people act like he's the Poopie they just scraped off their shoe. You're entitled to your opinion but I don't think Ford is way ahead of him. As excellent a prospect as he is, Ford is still a kid who has only started 9 times for Leicester.

He needs a huge amount of work to reverse his bravery bypass I think. Fingers crossed though, hugely talented.

Tom Catterick is the man.... he'll prove it this season...and Joel Hodgson at SH...with big Fitzy at 12....then its sorted....

GeordieFalcon wrote:Tom Catterick is the man.... he'll prove it this season...and Joel Hodgson at SH...with big Fitzy at 12....then its sorted....

Shhh! Someone from Leicester Tigers might be reading, we want to keep hold of them for at least a little longer!

Sorry I worded that badly. Cipriani is a very talented guy, but in terms of who Lancaster should be investing his time in I'd say that at the moment Ford is ahead. Also, Ford I would guess has played at least as much rugby as Cipriani recently and been in better form. If he has a good season at Sale he can force his way in but he shouldn't be in the squad straight away.

Cumbrian wrote:EPS:

Props: Alex Corbisiero, Joe Marler, Dan Cole, Rupert Harden (Henry Thomas training with the squad for experience.)
Hooker: Dylan Hartley, Tom Youngs and Joe Gray
Second Row: Courtney Lawes, Geoff Parling, Matt Garvey, Dave Attwood (Joe Launchbury training with the squad)
Flankers: Tom Croft, Tom Johnson, James Haskell, Chris Robshaw and Tom Wood (Matt Kvesic or Luke Wallace to train with the squad for experience.)
No.8: Ben Morgan, Thomas Waldrom (Would also like to see how Jordan Crane is when he gets back)

Scrum Half: Ben Youngs, Danny Care and Lee Dickson
Fly Half: Toby Flood, Owen Farrell and Danny Cipriani (George Ford to train with the squad)
Centres: Brad Barritt, Billy Twelvetrees, Manu Tuilagi and Jonathon Joseph
Wing: Chris Ashton, Jonny May, Ugo Monye
Fullback: Ben Foden, Alex Goode


SAXONS:

Props: Matt Mullan (Worcester) Max Lahiff (London Irish), Henry Thomas (Sale), Kieran Brookes (Leicester), Kyle Sinkler (Harlequins)
Hooker: Rob Webber (Bath), Jamie George (Saracens), Mike Haywood (Northampton) or Tom Lindsay (Wasps)
Second Row: Graham Kitchener (Leicester), Ed Slater (Leicester), Joe Launchbury (Wasps), Tom Savage (Gloucester) or George Kruis (Saracens)
Back-row: Carl Fearns (Bath), Matt Kvesic, Luke Wallace (Harlequins), Will Welch (Newcastle), Jamie Gibson (London Irish) and Alex Gray (London Irish)

Scrum Half: Karl Dickson (Harlequins), Ben Spencer (Saracens)
Fly Half: George Ford (Leicester), Freddie Burns (Gloucester), Stephen Myler (Northampton)
Centres: Henry Trinder (Gloucester), Anthony Allen, Jordan Turner Hall (Harlequins) and Ryan Mills (Gloucester)
Wing: Christian Wade (Wasps), James Short (Saracens), George Lowe- Covering centre too (Harlequins)
Fullback: Rob Miller (Sale), Tom Homer (London Irish)

I like a lot of that. But with the new 23 man teams will we not need six props as now two will be on the bench in every game?

Also i'm not sure if we can bank on Wood being fit by the AI's weren't there a lot of question marks about him ever playing? I'd look at Fearns staying in the squad and hope that last seasons dip was more to do with Baths general Poopie season then him personally.

After Flood any other 10 option has issues, i'd be against Farrel unless he's shown that he's worked on the serious flaws in his game and gets a good run at 10. After him i'd be looking between Burns, Cips, Clegg, Ford and Mills. Especially as with Goode at 15 he can relive some pressure from them and kick at goal too.

We must get 36 in there and stop messing Tuilagi around, play Joseph on the wing a bit and get him used to the intensity.

Monye shouldn't be picked, I don't think he'll be featuring for Quins too much this season and Joseph could have his spot.

Yappy beat me to the basic point, but I'd typed this anyway:

Has there been any suggestion about enlarging the EPS Squad size with the arrival of the 8 man bench? Is it fixed in stone?

Most positions have enough options to fill the match XXII and 1 or 2 extra, but everyone seems to be going for just 4 props, which will only complete the match XXII. Given the nature of the position I think future squads will require at least 5 props, 6 if you really wanted to be safe, which would impact on other positions if limited to 32.

Cumbrian wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Tom Catterick is the man.... he'll prove it this season...and Joel Hodgson at SH...with big Fitzy at 12....then its sorted....

Shhh! Someone from Leicester Tigers might be reading, we want to keep hold of them for at least a little longer!

Ah damit...your right

Tigers they're rubbish you dont want them....!

thomh wrote:Sorry I worded that badly. Cipriani is a very talented guy, but in terms of who Lancaster should be investing his time in I'd say that at the moment Ford is ahead. Also, Ford I would guess has played at least as much rugby as Cipriani recently and been in better form. If he has a good season at Sale he can force his way in but he shouldn't be in the squad straight away.

Fair enough.

yappysnap wrote:

I like a lot of that. But with the new 23 man teams will we not need six props as now two will be on the bench in every game?

Also i'm not sure if we can bank on Wood being fit by the AI's weren't there a lot of question marks about him ever playing? I'd look at Fearns staying in the squad and hope that last seasons dip was more to do with Baths general Poopie season then him personally.

After Flood any other 10 option has issues, i'd be against Farrel unless he's shown that he's worked on the serious flaws in his game and gets a good run at 10. After him i'd be looking between Burns, Cips, Clegg, Ford and Mills. Especially as with Goode at 15 he can relive some pressure from them and kick at goal too.

We must get 36 in there and stop messing Tuilagi around, play Joseph on the wing a bit and get him used to the intensity.

Monye shouldn't be picked, I don't think he'll be featuring for Quins too much this season and Joseph could have his spot.

I'd forgotten about the extra prop from next year, we'll certainly be stretched at tighthead it would seem.

Wood's injury doesn't seem career threatening (I originally thought that was the case too), but it is an odd one.

http://www.espnscrum.com/premiership-2011-12/rugby/story/163715.html

Would Wood make the starting spot at the moment...?

It's a good question. I think it would depend on who else is available and their relative form. Robshaw has got the seven shirt sown up, but he and Wood playing together would be worth a look. Could use Croft as an impact sub or vice versa. Competition within the squad is always a good thing too.

Hartley, Youngs
Corbs, Cole, Marler, Thomas, Mullan
Lawes, Launchbury, Garvey, Attwood
Robshaw, Croft, Wood, Haskell
Waldrom, Morgan

Youngs, Care, Dickson
Flood, Burns
36, Barritt, Tuilagi, JJ
Ashton, Sharples, May
Foden, Brown, Goode


Lacking an out-and-out lineout man in the locks, but none of those fulfilling that role give enough nasty or do enough carrying (which I feel is a more critical issue for the side) and they haven't been so good on our or opposition ball to make that a suitable compromise. Plus with Croft & Wood's lineout ability back I think it is an avenue we can afford to pursue.

I'd very much like us to try a true fetching openside. My first choice would be Armitage, but not sure how things will continue to work out with availability. If Wood's injuries continue I'd be looking for Armitage there or fast tracking someone like Kvesic.

Waldrom & Morgan for the moment at 8, but I'd be looking to bring Crane in as soon as he approaches the form he showed before his injury. If Fearns can get to better international fitness before Morgan (both need a rocket up their...) I'd also be looking to swap them over.

Farrell has a number of admirable qualities, but I don't think he's right for us at FH at the moment. Can't see Lancaster dropping him, but I think he needs a season at 10 for Saracens to bring his game on. Ford would be my hope at 10 for the future, but again think he needs a good season at his club to put him in the best position to make the jump, and Flood away as first choice for England for much of the season will help that. My choice, Burns, isn't infallable himself, but I think his attacking intentions in the mix at training and off the bench will help spur on the developments in our backline play that we need to see.

Not sure how things will pan out with the fullbacks, but have opted to keep all three options there for the moment so we can play around a bit more and find the best solution. I think Foden & Brown are better FBs, but with our current limitations in the playmaking roles Goode could be very useful, though if Twelvetrees takes to international rugby as I think he will and makes the 12 shirt his own I'd prefer Foden or Brown. If we can rationalise the FBs to just 2 I'd be looking to bring an extra wing in, Benjamin or Wade (2 quite different players, I really like Wade, but I think we could do with a physical wing and I think Benjamin will really step up & prosper at Tigers).

My EPS squad:

Prop: Corbisiero, Marler, Cole, Harden
Hooker: Hartley, Webber, Youngs
Lock: Parling, Kitchener, Lawes, Attwood
Flanker: Robshaw, Johnson, Haskell, Croft, Kvesic
Number 8: Waldrom, Morgan

Scrumhalf: Youngs, Care
Flyhalf: Flood, Farrell, Ford
Centre: Barritt, Tuilagi, Twelvetrees, Joseph
Wing: Sharples, Ashton, May
Fullback: Foden, Goode

Senior EPS:

Props: Alex Corbisiero, Dan Cole, Joe Marler, Paul Doran-Jones, Matt Stevens
Hooker: Dylan Hartley, Tom Youngs, Lee Mears
Locks: Courtney Lawes, Geoff Parling, Dave Attwood, Matthew Garvey
Back row: Tom Croft, Chris Robshaw, Tom Wood, James Haskell, Ben Morgan, Thomas Waldrom

Scrum-halves: Ben Youngs, Danny Care, Lee Dickson
Fly-halves: Toby Flood, Charlie Hodgson, Owen Farrell
Centres: Manu Tuilagi, Jonathan Joseph, Brad Barritt
Outside backs: Ben Foden, Chris Ashton, Mike Brown, Alex Goode, Jonny May

Saxons:

Props: Matt Mullan, Rupert Harden, Nick Wood, Henry Thomas, Nathan Catt
Hookers: Jamie George, Chris Brooker, Rob Webber
Second rows: Graham Kitchener, Mouritz Botha, Joe Launchberry, Ed Slater
Back row: Carl Fearns, Tom Johnson, Jamie Gibson, Matt Kvesic, Jordan Crane, Phil Dowson

Scrum-halves: Ben Spencer, Joe Simpson
Fly-halves: Freddy Burns, George Ford
Centres: Billy Twelvetrees, Anthony Allen, Jordan Turner-Hall, Henry Trinder
Outside backs: Charlie Sharples, Christian Wade, Ugo Monye, David Strettle, Nick Abendanon, Rob Miller

Stevens, Mears, Dickson, Hodgson and Barritt are in the senior EPS for their ability to slot in incase of injury. They'll all know the calls and the style of play and can come in at a moments notice. Other than that I've looked to build on the positives from the recent tour, but addressing the weaknesses, mainly in the second row.

In the Saxons I've gone for a mixture of promising young players and some injury cover (Webber, Botha, Dowson, Allen, Monye, Strettle). These players probably wouldn't play in any Saxons games but could move up to the senior EPS in an emergency.

Cumbrian are you forgetting or dropping Brown? I know Goode looked good, but surely he's not down the list at 6th choice

ChequeredJersey wrote:Cumbrian are you forgetting or dropping Brown? I know Goode looked good, but surely he's not down the list at 6th choice

Forgetting.

I'd probably choose to swap him for one of the wingers though and use Foden to cover the back three.

alcoombe wrote:

Lacking an out-and-out lineout man in the locks, but none of those fulfilling that role give enough nasty or do enough carrying (which I feel is a more critical issue for the side) .

I'd very much like us to try a true fetching openside. My first choice would be Armitage, but not sure how things will continue to work out with availability. If Wood's injuries continue I'd be looking for Armitage there or fast tracking someone like Kvesic.

I disagree with these points. If you can't decure your own line-out ball you are in very serious trouble and your whole game plan can collapse. Second rows not making much ground is much less serious.

And I don't see why we need a fetcher. Robshaw is almost one and Haskell played very well yesterday. I think Wood also sees himself as a 7. If Kvesic can force his way in, or Armitage wants to come home and try, then great. But England's breakdown play is actually competitive for once.

Robshaw In T1 put in a great fetcheresque spell

DaveM wrote:

alcoombe wrote:

Lacking an out-and-out lineout man in the locks, but none of those fulfilling that role give enough nasty or do enough carrying (which I feel is a more critical issue for the side) .

I'd very much like us to try a true fetching openside. My first choice would be Armitage, but not sure how things will continue to work out with availability. If Wood's injuries continue I'd be looking for Armitage there or fast tracking someone like Kvesic.

I disagree with these points. If you can't decure your own line-out ball you are in very serious trouble and your whole game plan can collapse. Second rows not making much ground is much less serious.

And I don't see why we need a fetcher. Robshaw is almost one and Haskell played very well yesterday. I think Wood also sees himself as a 7. If Kvesic can force his way in, or Armitage wants to come home and try, then great. But England's breakdown play is actually competitive for once.

You removed quite an important part of the quote regarding my comments about the locks. I sepcified that the out-and-out lineout options in and around the squad that might have been considered haven't been particularly effective at giving us a great lineout platform. If they were Matfieldesque in what they brought, fine, but they're not. I'm certainly not suggesting we abandon being effective at the lineout, I said the selection was contingent on the return of Croft & Wood, who probably secure more own ball for club and country than their locks, and Garvey & Attwood aren't exactly incapable at the lineout, both have/do run it for their clubs. I really don't see us losing much, if anything, significant in the lineout stakes based on recent performances.

I wasn't singling out carrying from the locks when I talked of a more critical issue, it also referred to my giving 'nasty' comment, by which I mean making your physical presence noticed around the park, knocking people back in the tackle, smashing into and clearing out/through the breakdown, mauling up the pitch, and more, everything the Bok locks did to us. That would have made far greater difference to the way the tour went.


Regarding a fetcher, you will notice that I selected Wood & Haskell for my EPS, not Armitage or Kvesic. My comments about bringing them in were based on the possibility that Wood's injuries might continue, in which case, yes I wanted to try out an in form fetcher and see what it gave us. You state yourself that Robshaw & Haskell's ability to do some fetching is useful to out breakdown efforts, why would you not want someone like Armitage in the mix who is very good at it as well as with ball in hand and was voted player of the year in France (you'll see I mention in my original comments if availability isn't an issue)?

Garvey and Attwood are far from line-out masters. Hooper is first choice caller at Bath and are we sure Garvey calls the LI line out? That seems pretty surprising for a side with Kennedy in it. Parling and Palmer did well in the third test, and if we'd picked big second rows for the proceeding games I think the line out would have gone considerably more badly than it did.

Only one of Croft or Wood is likely to play, and so I don't think we can really go into a test without a serious second row line-out option.

England made their physical presence count in the third test. It took a while to get up to speed but as I've been arguing elsewhere that was virtually inevitable in my opinion.

I just don't see the need to introduce a fetching 7. If Kvesic has an outstanding season then great but he should be there as a flanker rather than because he's a fetcher.

"You removed quite an important part of the quote regarding my comments about the locks. I sepcified that the out-and-out lineout options in and around the squad that might have been considered haven't been particularly effective at giving us a great lineout platform. If they were Matfieldesque in what they brought, fine, but they're not"

Seriously?

Parling is unable to do every lineout himself. A lineout lock needs other options and Parling (bar perhaps Robshaw) has had little.

People go on about Matfield like he was a one man lineout machine. He had Botha at the front (probably one of the best front jumpers this last 5 years or so), Juan Smith at the tail (again a majestic lineout operator) and later Pierre Spies who's a world class lineout op.

Parling over the last few tests has had him and Robshaw with Botha offering a little too.

What's happened is SA have worked out we had one main target in Parling and have tracked him, Parling has done bloody well to get us any ball tbh with Hartley not known for great darts (although decent).

I've never known Garvey or Attwood lead a line and both are not particulary strong in the lineout imo.

Why do players that are not playing generally get rated much higher than those that are on these boards? Crazy

DaveM wrote:Garvey and Attwood are far from line-out masters. Hooper is first choice caller at Bath and are we sure Garvey calls the LI line out? That seems pretty surprising for a side with Kennedy in it. Parling and Palmer did well in the third test, and if we'd picked big second rows for the proceeding games I think the line out would have gone considerably more badly than it did.

Only one of Croft or Wood is likely to play, and so I don't think we can really go into a test without a serious second row line-out option.

England made their physical presence count in the third test. It took a while to get up to speed but as I've been arguing elsewhere that was virtually inevitable in my opinion.

I just don't see the need to introduce a fetching 7. If Kvesic has an outstanding season then great but he should be there as a flanker rather than because he's a fetcher.

I in no way suggested they were line out masters, they can certainly hold their own though. If you look at last season's stats Parling averaged 4 lineouts a game, Attwood & Garvey averaged 3, not a world of difference.

I didn't say they have been dedicated lineout leaders, but that they "have/do run it for their clubs". Hooper started just 8 games for Bath last season, so Attwood has been in charge. With Casey out for the last season or so (now retired), when Kennedy has been injured (not an infrequent occurence) Garvey has taken the reins, and now Kennedy has left Irish. Don't forget that Parling only took over Tiger's lineout last season with Deacon's absence.

Yes, I agree, only one of Croft or Wood will likely start, but one of them is pretty certain to and they usually take on the bulk of the work in the lineouts they operate in. The locks I listed are perfectly able jumpers and if you need more beyond that Robshaw averages a couple of line outs a game for Quins (he took 3 in the 2nd test for England).

If you're so pro an out-and-out line out lock, it's curious that you have stated elsewhere that you hope our future partnership will be Lawes & Launchbury, the first two names in my original post.


We were marginally more physical in the third test, but I think the competitiveness was less due to what we did and more to SA turning up with less intent and being down a couple of their most physical specimens.


Of course they would be there as a flanker, it's not one or the other. Good fetchers don't shirk the rest of their duties, the principal difference is that they're in at the breakdown faster and better at securing or slowing ball. How can someone who gets more involved and is more capable at the breakdown be a bad thing and something we don't want? Is it just that you don't rate Armitage? Who would you have ahead of him to back up an absent Wood?

If Armitage were available he should be up for selection. But he has put his career in France over his International career. If NZ aren't going to call up Nev in the world cup, and that seems to work as a policy, why should we make exceptions either?

That's not been the case Sgt_Pooly, he's had more than a few options from the start. None of his lock partners have missed a line out and Palmer took more than him in the third test. As well as Robshaw he's also had Johnson, who took 4 line outs in the first test (more than Parling) and 2 in each of the 2nd & 3rd tests.

The issue is that we're desperately in need of some physicality and nasty, which would be even more true if Croft was back in the team (our most reliable line out option). We need both locks to offer us a physical edge (which Parling doesn't), to forgo that in one they would have to be an excellent lineout operator on our and opposition ball, Parling isn't able to provide us that level of platform.

Totally disagree with Parling, I think he's a top operator and gives us a very solid platform which we haven't had in the past. He carries quite well and puts in a big shift each game.

To be honest none of front 5 really carry so unsure why Parling is getting targeted, he's in the side to give a set piece platform which he does.

Shhh! Someone from Leicester Tigers might be reading, we want to keep hold of them for at least a little longer!

Cumbrian and Geordie. Tigers don't need half backs we have England first choice Ben Youngs, England Saxon Micky Young and former England under 20 and no doubt future England Saxon Sam Harrison who are all good 9s as well as the 18 year old Scottish under 20 9 Scott Steele in the academy. At 10 we have Flood the England first choice and the England under 20s captain and IRB young player of the year George Ford as well as Dan Bowden and Matt Cornwall. The academy 10 Rory Lynn isn't a bad young player either (got a good boot and a fair passing game).

Totally disagree with Parling, I think he's a top operator and gives us a very solid platform which we haven't had in the past. He carries quite well and puts in a big shift each game.

A agree Sgt, Parling will improve the lineout further when the backrow jumpers Croft and Wood are back. It's grunt the England side is lacking and that has got to be laid at the door of the England enforcer. We need a man mountain in that position and though Botha always gives his all he is falling just short in my view.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Shhh! Someone from Leicester Tigers might be reading, we want to keep hold of them for at least a little longer!

Cumbrian and Geordie. Tigers don't need half backs we have England first choice Ben Youngs, England Saxon Micky Young and former England under 20 and no doubt future England Saxon Sam Harrison who are all good 9s as well as the 18 year old Scottish under 20 9 Scott Steele in the academy. At 10 we have Flood the England first choice and the England under 20s captain and IRB young player of the year George Ford as well as Dan Bowden and Matt Cornwall. The academy 10 Rory Lynn isn't a bad young player either (got a good boot and a fair passing game).

Totally disagree with Parling, I think he's a top operator and gives us a very solid platform which we haven't had in the past. He carries quite well and puts in a big shift each game.

A agree Sgt, Parling will improve the lineout further when the backrow jumpers Croft and Wood are back. It's grunt the England side is lacking and that has got to be laid at the door of the England enforcer. We need a man mountain in that position and though Botha always gives his all he is falling just short in my view.

It was supposed to be a bit of a joke Sam, but thanks for putting me right.

I know Cumbrian. I was just saying. How's Welch coming along anyway...

Welch is rubbish and will not get any gametime.. Probably passed down to blaydon for. Season actually

Back row is going to be fascinating....especially if players like Morgan and Fearns can get really match fit. And players like crane back....

Is Welch actually rubbish or are you being sneaky there?

We could use an alternative to Clegg the way he's turned out. Any available? And they better not be faulty!

Welch is class...but sshhhh dont tell anyone.

And you can have gopperth...but catterick is.ours...and.hodgson

Newby hasn't got long left in him I don't think and Woods is struggling with injuries. Maybe we'll swing by for Welch next summer if he's available. When does his contract expire?

Hands off

I'd like to see this team get a run out at some stage perhaps against Italy in the 6 Nations or Fiji before that?

Corbs
Youngs
Cole
Palmer
Lawes
Croft
Robshaw ( c )
Morgan (fit version) otherwise Waldrom
Care
Flood
12.36
13.Joseph
11.Ashton
14. Manu - controversial perhaps to stick him on the wing. he's too powerful to leave out but i think Joseph may be the better 13. joseph will pass the ball to manu but with manu at 13 the wings might as well have a cuppa. also he can be brought in from the blindside to cause carnage in midfield.
15. Foden

Tri, Manu is not a good winger (I've seen it and not many have as he's never started a game for the first team on the wing and I think had one sub appearence there in his first season for all of 2 minutes). He is left isolated from the game and no opposition in their right mind will kick it down his wing. Joseph was pretty poor in both the games he started so I'd be tempted to bench him and stop shoving around our best attacking threat ball in hand. Playing young players out of position all the time and shifting them around the backs does nothing to help them at all.

I'd prefer to see something like this by the time the 6N rolled around:

1.Corbs
2.Hartley
3.Cole
4.Garvey (if whatever issue occurred at half time in the Saxons game can be over come, if not Attwood)
5.Parling
6.Croft
7.Robshaw
8.Morgan/Waldrom/Crane - whoever is in the best form
9.Youngs
10.Flood
11.Ashton
12.Barritt (his defensive work rate was key in the first test and he looked really good in the developed backline of the third test)
13.Manu (our best ball carrier)
14.Foden (contreversial but I liked the 2 fb policy and him and Ashton attacking off of Flood's shoulder is awesome)
15.Goode (very impressive in SA)

Bench: Marler, T Youngs/Webber/Grey (whoever is in form), Lawes, Wood, Care, Farrell/Burns (whoever is in form), Joseph.

Impact from the bench and defensively stable team with attacking threat throughout. Use the AIs to test the form and ability of the players we're unsure about, the likes of Garvey/Attwood etc. Bring back into the fold the injured guys like Croft, Wood etc. That team with the uncertain options confirmed will take on the 6Ns very well.

Do people think that Tom Youngs darts are up to the standard required for test match rugby?

He has looked poor in this area when I have seen him.

formerly sam

what allegedly happened at half time with garvey?
manu looked pretty good running down the wing vs france!
we need ball carries in our pack. that is why i went for youngs. his darts were fine midweek apparently.
palmer is massively underrated. he can catch and pass! and do all the things a second row is supposed to do.

otherwise i agree with you.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Do people think that Tom Youngs darts are up to the standard required for test match rugby?

He has looked poor in this area when I have seen him.

i dont think anyone genuinely beleives hes ready for tests rugby yet, he was taken along because they were effectively running the saxons squad out there too. I see his inclussion more like Marlers first call up, Id like to see him being able to displace Chuter as a club starter (like even for one serious game would be a first step) before I start thinking of him as a starter for England.

Hooker is a problem for England in my opinion. There are lots of players whose names get thrown in, Webber, Lindsay, Youngs, George, Paice, Whitehead, which make it sound like we have good depth, but in reality all have some glaring deficiencies to their games and most aren't even nailed on in the jersey for their clubs.

Big year for Youngs I think Pete, if he can nail 2 jersey for Tigers I think he'll overtake Hartley.

Going forward would a back 5 work:

4. Garvey
5. Attwood
6. Lawes
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

If that back 5 can nail lineout ball it would be pretty destructive around the park.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Big year for Youngs I think Pete, if he can nail 2 jersey for Tigers I think he'll overtake Hartley.

Going forward would a back 5 work:

4. Garvey
5. Attwood
6. Lawes
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan

If that back 5 can nail lineout ball it would be pretty destructive around the park.

agreed and possibly a good back 5 for SA or Ireland...and not on the lineout score... croft to 6, lawes into one of the srow spots!