Rate your national coach as it stands NOW. (6Ns)

First topic message reminder :

Do what it says on the tin.

Twelve months ago many posters had different views regarding their national manager/coach than are currently popular.

Rate your current your opinion.

And next year the results a repeat poll outcome can be compared.

Poll closes before SH Rugby Championship

Ah Stag, I have gone to a few other matches not invlving Munster alright, I don't know if support is the word I'd use but I certainly cheer on every province when they're in action. Was at Leinster v Agen a few years back, great game.


Rory, I like every province and try to watch as many games as I can and I cheer them on but I don't know if support is the word I'd use when talking about the other provinces is all.


FR, those issues are still there, and a re a relatively big problem. Del Bosque has covered them up somewhat and the team have got along on the pitch but not well off it apparently. Some people can get over ti and get on with the game others can't. It has been an issue for Ireland in the past and I think it could be now.

red_stag wrote:Rodders, read it again.

Players are always giving 100% for Ireland. They are committed.

However I just think that they can find another gear, dig deeper and try 110% when the provinces are on the line.

Yes but I don't agree with that. What I'm saying is that the 100% they give for Ireland quite frankly hasn't been good enough, whereas the provinces it has.

Even at the highest level of European competition you aren't facing Ritchie McCaws and Hosea Gears that is the reality. It is a different level. Rory Best said it took him 4 years to get up to the fitness required to play international rugby.

One off big games in the HEC are not the same and as intense international test series or competitions.

And lets be brutally honest here, when we talk about provincial form vs country we mean Leinster v Country because both Munster and Ireland have had their humblings this season too. Even Leinster came unstuck against the Ospreys tactics.

The Province v Country thing makes a good story from a media perspective but it is an argument built on sand. There simply isn't reality behind it when you look at the whole picture.

Red Stag,

My understanding is Malinder didnt even apply this time, having previously turned Johnson down when he came knocking. I appreciate he wants to achieve with Northampton however I still think the rfu have a lot of questions to answer before england can again sit at the top table.

The players certainly are playing with heart which I accept is a real foundation. However there are serious issues around selection and game plan that must be answered, and I just dont believe SL understands what is required to do this. I would love to be wrong but the ability to be a top coach is a rare thing, and if SL had what it takes he would of already have been coaching in the premiership and not coaching the saxons.

Kingelderfield,

Really? He didn't apply. I thought he did. We played Saints in the Heineken Cup and I knew the speculation was said to have unsettled the camp and they lose to us conceding 40 odd points.

England has proven itself to be ruthless when it comes to underperforming coaches. We have seen Sir Clive Woodward, Andy Robinson, Brian Ashton, Martin Johnson and Stuart Lancaster emerge as England coaches. In the same period of time Ireland has had just two coaches.

Lancaster is instilling a hard work ethos which for me was your priority. It had to be. That RWC report suggested that those players who worked hard, didn't drink, were committed were jeered by team mates. I saw a documentary on the 2003 RWC team and they were so disciplined and dedicated. Lancaster cancelled the teams annual holiday camp in Portugal and took them off to the lashing rain and mud in Leeds.

He is exposing youthful players to the international scene and I think if he doesn't get result we will see a new coach come in presented with a team of professional, hard working young men all of whom have got exposure to the international scene.

England are building nicely. I wouldn't worry.

Thomond wrote:FR, those issues are still there, and a re a relatively big problem. Del Bosque has covered them up somewhat and the team have got along on the pitch but not well off it apparently. Some people can get over ti and get on with the game others can't. It has been an issue for Ireland in the past and I think it could be now.

I know they're still there. Especially among fans. But they're irrelevant. Maybe there's nothing O'Driscoll loves more than wiping the smiles of the faces of those turnip eating peasant farmers from down south. Maybe it makes him immeasurably happy to beat that Saffer/Ulster Presbyterian Cult up north. Maybe he loves heaping pain and misery on those long haired Che Guevara worshipping stoner's in Galway.

But when it comes to international rugby that's all irrelevant. It's the island of Ireland against the best test teams in the world. What's relevant is picking the best team, the right gameplan and executing it well. That's what Galtalnd does for Wales. And it doesn't make people from Ponty like Cardiff any more than they do. But that's irrelevant to test rugby. It's a different sphere of rugby.

If you don't get along off the pitch, in rugby it is pretty hard to work well on the pitch. Surely you can see that. Even the greatest Deccie hater would give him some slack for that.

Red Stag,

Youre so right in terms of what it must mean to play for your country(England), those were very very dark days. I just fear from what I've seen of SL that he has already given his best shot in terms of player discipline/team ethic and that he dosn't have the knowledge or ability to take the team forward from here.

The autumn internationals will provide the test, for all nh teams, and to my mind its about time us in the north started providing the answers.

Seperate but related point, this will be the first autumn series to be played following the extended super 15, summer tours and the new Rugby Championship. All told I believe this will effect the sh teams whose players maybe hanging.

Remember the words of Rory Best:

“Its hard to know why Ireland have underperformed because it’s the same group of players as when they play for their provinces.

There are a lot of good points when we come together, but because the three groups are so competitive sometimes it takes a wee bit of time to get into it.

Its like being with the enemy and there are splits within the camp”

I can't post full article but its from this issue of Rugby World - http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/rugby-world-%E2%80%93-may-2012-edition-contents/

But the same is true of every international side stag. And the Lions, even more so. There are players in France and Spain who don't even see themselves as French/Spanish. They see themselves as Basque/Catalan etc. But overcoming that is a pretty basic thing you would expect an international team to do.

Feckless Rogue wrote:But the same is true of every international side stag. And the Lions, even more so. There are players in France and Spain who don't even see themselves as French/Spanish. They see themselves as Basque/Catalan etc. But overcoming that is a pretty basic thing you would expect an international team to do.

I don't think its the same for every international side. There are effectively 2 countries/nationalities involved in Irish rugby, and both nationalities probably feel that the symbolism doesn't actually reflect either set of players. The team's flag & anthem (Ireland's call) is all about 4 provinces coming together to play a game .... sort of a mini Lions.

The jury's out but SL passed the 1st test, eventually - he dropped Farrell as the starting FH. Still doesn't understand what the bench is all about though. Nor what an appropriate gameplan is.

Interesting comment by Jerry Flannery to do with Kidney.

Although Flannery would love to be a rugby player "to bang heads with people at international level and play Heineken Cup games", his calf injury won't allow it. It seems inevitable that he'll end up coaching somewhere instead. His experience is limited at present, but he's worked with some of the best coaches and learned from them. Declan Kidney, in particular, is someone the hooker has been influenced by.

"Declan is a very smart man, very emotionally intelligent, he thinks a good few steps down the line and puts people in the right place. You might not understand why he's doing something and then two weeks later it makes sense."

"Deccy takes players and tells them they're really good, he'll take a young player who is making his first start for Ireland or Munster and tell them to do exactly what they did when they were playing in school, which stops a player over-thinking things. He makes you believe in yourself by telling you you're here because you're really good. If you make someone feel big they'll play big."

http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/jerry-flannery-we-need-to-have-greater-expectations-of-ireland-3175447.html

I'd rather the players knew what deccie was on about on the day of the match rather than 2 weeks later.......

Bout ye sin

red_stag wrote:Rory, don't worry I don't consider it a dig.

However it is not a Munster thing.

https://www.606v2.com/t26574-club-country-lions-priorites

On this thread there are some Irish supporters who say:

"Listen its Leinster or nothing. I could not care by a large amount how the Lions or even Ireland get on. If thier not in blue and have 2 shiny stars above the crest, then they can jog on. It's all about Leinster." DrSambo

"Im definitely leinster both europe and league before country" Leinsterfan4life

"It's Club first for me and even though I am a Heineken Cup addict, I think winning your domestic league has to be the principal aim at the start of any season" Rava

I just feel that there are more and more and more fans who feel like this and I think its only logical that some players will feel the same.

I said this on another one of your threads and practically got boo'd out of the forum.........

Whilst I don't agree with it, I can see why some put club before country. When you're used to success and your national team doesn't get the results it should, I can see how that could be frustrating. But test rugby is the pinnacle. It's a step up from club football and is the great leveller. There is no place to hide in test rugby. You have to prove your worth. The top Super and Heineken teams come close to test match standard but it's not the same. You want to see the best and I can appreciate that for whatever reason the Leinster players and the others are not producing their best at test level. But unfortunately, being the top of your region is not the same as being the best in the world at test level.

There does seem to much club over country fanaticism on the Bog.

I also note that many of their life experiences cannot extend much beyond the pro era. Even the ones as old as me have been bereft of any but a tiny few cherished Irish rugby memories in competition.

So whilst I agree that Country should be over club, I can empathise with their sentiments.

Equally I hope that those self-same people don't get all uppity if an Irish old fart doesn't get selected for the Lions captaincy.

Portnoy wrote:Equally I hope that those self-same people don't get all uppity if an Irish old fart doesn't get selected for the Lions captaincy.

No need for that remark Portnoy.

Quite insulting.

The fundamental truth though Staggy. It can hurt. No point a Chelsea/Man U/Man C/etc. fans vexing over English players in international competition when their hearts are beating for their club's success.

Whatever Portnoy.

That isn't what you said.

Just a dig at the Irish. I expected better.

No it wasn't Staggy.

red_stag wrote:Rory, don't worry I don't consider it a dig.

However it is not a Munster thing.

https://www.606v2.com/t26574-club-country-lions-priorites

On this thread there are some Irish supporters who say:

"Listen its Leinster or nothing. I could not care by a large amount how the Lions or even Ireland get on. If thier not in blue and have 2 shiny stars above the crest, then they can jog on. It's all about Leinster." DrSambo

"Im definitely leinster both europe and league before country" Leinsterfan4life

"It's Club first for me and even though I am a Heineken Cup addict, I think winning your domestic league has to be the principal aim at the start of any season" Rava

I just feel that there are more and more and more fans who feel like this and I think its only logical that some players will feel the same.

Portnoy wrote:No it wasn't Staggy.

red_stag wrote:Rory, don't worry I don't consider it a dig.

However it is not a Munster thing.

https://www.606v2.com/t26574-club-country-lions-priorites

On this thread there are some Irish supporters who say:

"Listen its Leinster or nothing. I could not care by a large amount how the Lions or even Ireland get on. If thier not in blue and have 2 shiny stars above the crest, then they can jog on. It's all about Leinster." DrSambo

"Im definitely leinster both europe and league before country" Leinsterfan4life

"It's Club first for me and even though I am a Heineken Cup addict, I think winning your domestic league has to be the principal aim at the start of any season" Rava

I just feel that there are more and more and more fans who feel like this and I think its only logical that some players will feel the same.

i think you are missing stags point. it was the reference to some "old Irish Fart" being captain of lions which i believe he found offensive. as do i to be honest

I found it offensive too. I'm 36 and 3 years older than BOD.

Yup I found it an unneccasary dig/insult as well

Anyway back on track -

The reason why I voted concerned about Lancaster is that I feel that he has had a load of new players fall into his lap from the academies after MJ's senior squad let him down in a media storm of unpofessionalism (the guys he really MJ should have been able to rely on - like Declan could with his xOx's).

SL doesn't have the WG influence to fine-tune the squad. But there again he doesn't have the drive of SCW to aggregate all micro-gains that Brailsford openly attributed the method that has enabled Sky cycling to have succeeded.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I found it offensive too. I'm 36 and 3 years older than BOD.

Which part Kia?

the old or the fart?

Back on the Declan front.

None of the old staples of the like of BOD and POC will have a realistic chance of 2015. If he drops either he'd be damned. But if he doesn't he'd be vilified later down the track for a similar reason. What the hell is ROG doing anywhere near a Irish team? Sexton has to tote the bale single-handedly with new incumbents.

Ireland should let the old farts play out their twilight careers on the Heineken front and allow new incumbents to try, fail and eventually win.

Short of NZ, Ireland are the best equipped organisationally side to stride forward.

Unfortunately the older you get the more you should never trust a fart.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Unfortunately the older you get the more you should never trust a fart.

well compared to me you are still a youngsta.

So you admit you wear incontinence trousers mate?

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Unfortunately the older you get the more you should never trust a fart.

I reckon they smell less the older you get.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:So you admit you wear incontinence trousers mate?

Geez, I'm not that old.

I am not even using a zimmer frame yet.

Morné Steyn uses one on attack. No wonder the Bulls attack smells of... Red card time!

Nah, just a yellow.

Portnoy wrote:Back on the Declan front.

None of the old staples of the like of BOD and POC will have a realistic chance of 2015. If he drops either he'd be damned. But if he doesn't he'd be vilified later down the track for a similar reason. What the hell is ROG doing anywhere near a Irish team? Sexton has to tote the bale single-handedly with new incumbents.

Ireland should let the old farts play out their twilight careers on the Heineken front and allow new incumbents to try, fail and eventually win.

Short of NZ, Ireland are the best equipped organisationally side to stride forward.

Bod, no. Poc, if he can stay fit I don't see why he couldn't play. He will be aroudn 35, will be his last effort. You don't drop a guy like POC just becasue he is old. BOD should maybe move to 12 while he brings through his successor whoever that is. ROG is a mystery, I don't think he should start for Munster. Deccie seems to think otherwise.

[quote="Thomond"]

Portnoy wrote:

Ireland should let the old farts play out their twilight careers on the Heineken front and allow new incumbents to try, fail and eventually win.

I think England has the monopoly on old farts tbh.

Bod, no. Poc, if he can stay fit I don't see why he couldn't play. He will be aroudn 35, will be his last effort. You don't drop a guy like POC just becasue he is old. BOD should maybe move to 12 while he brings through his successor whoever that is. ROG is a mystery, I don't think he should start for Munster. Deccie seems to think otherwise.

I've no doubt POC will make the next world cup. Hopefully Ireland will go easy on him now and not play him when he should be rested. I don't think BOD likes playing 12 (and why Paddy Wallace was dragged out to the world cup). It will be really interesting if we see the Earls/BOD combination again.

ROG hasn't started a game for Ireland since the world cup - I'm sure he can't wait for Madigan or someone else being able to do bench duty.

I think Munster need him for another season at least - don't think Keatley is the answer and we will have to wait for JJ to grow up a bit more.

Sin é wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:But the same is true of every international side stag. And the Lions, even more so. There are players in France and Spain who don't even see themselves as French/Spanish. They see themselves as Basque/Catalan etc. But overcoming that is a pretty basic thing you would expect an international team to do.

I don't think its the same for every international side. There are effectively 2 countries/nationalities involved in Irish rugby, and both nationalities probably feel that the symbolism doesn't actually reflect either set of players. The team's flag & anthem (Ireland's call) is all about 4 provinces coming together to play a game .... sort of a mini Lions.

Totally agree Sin, its a real challenge to get Munster and Ireland playing as one... ...

SinÉ,

I predict that ROG will be doing bench duty for Ireland by the end of the season.

ROG will be rested due to him being an international. By contrast Hanrahan and Keatley are training with Penney daily at the moment.

Penney was the NZ coach at the U20 RWC and won't have forgotten Hanrahan's display in the tournament.

Reading between the lines it seems he is placing an emphasis on youth - he said that if he delivers as Musnter coach it will mean several young players emerging as top class players and becoming international class.

We will see Keatley/Hanrahan start the season and get 3-4 matches in a row. If Munster are winning it could be difficult for ROG to oust them especially if he is only getting a match here and there due to Ireland involvement and age taking its toll.

I have a gut feeling ROG won't be the first choice man under Penney.

Let's hope so Stag, he is a role to play but as a starter I don't think so. It will push him to lift his performances and if he can win back a role it can only be a good thing. He hasn't had competition during his tenure with Munster really. Staunton maybe but that's a bit of a stretch.

red_stag wrote:SinÉ,

I predict that ROG will be doing bench duty for Ireland by the end of the season.

ROG will be rested due to him being an international. By contrast Hanrahan and Keatley are training with Penney daily at the moment.

Penney was the NZ coach at the U20 RWC and won't have forgotten Hanrahan's display in the tournament.

Reading between the lines it seems he is placing an emphasis on youth - he said that if he delivers as Musnter coach it will mean several young players emerging as top class players and becoming international class.

We will see Keatley/Hanrahan start the season and get 3-4 matches in a row. If Munster are winning it could be difficult for ROG to oust them especially if he is only getting a match here and there due to Ireland involvement and age taking its toll.

I have a gut feeling ROG won't be the first choice man under Penney.

Depending on the progression of Keatley & JJ, I'd say by the end of the season you will see something similar to how he has been used by Ireland. It must urine off some Irish fans that ROG hasn't said a word about having to bench for Ireland and they can only moan about the few minutes he does get at the end of a game.

Penney gave an interview to Michael Corcoran on rte sports at 7 which was interesting from what he said about POC & ROG - something to the effect that the younger players need to learn to be not fear them/their legendary status and realise that both POC & ROG want the best for Munster Rugby. He talked about how these young players could get bogged down in trying to live up to the team that POC & ROG were part of.

I can see it Thomond. Just a gut feeling as I say.

Did you see Penney and Kidney had a "robust meeting" (Penney's description of it).

He said that it was a good frank discussion of Irish Rugby.

Hopefully that Kiwi had good advice for Uncle Deccie (and I daresay vice versa)!!

Thomond wrote:Let's hope so Stag, he is a role to play but as a starter I don't think so. It will push him to lift his performances and if he can win back a role it can only be a good thing. He hasn't had competition during his tenure with Munster really. Staunton maybe but that's a bit of a stretch.

Warwick was handy enough (anyway, not many outhalfs have competition as if they are that good they will be gone elsewhere as a starter).

I don't think McGahan had the cojones to ever drop ROG Sin, Warwick was serious competition though. I would have had him starting.

red_stag wrote:I can see it Thomond. Just a gut feeling as I say.

Did you see Penney and Kidney had a "robust meeting" (Penney's description of it).

He said that it was a good frank discussion of Irish Rugby.

Hopefully that Kiwi had good advice for Uncle Deccie (and I daresay vice versa)!!

There is an article in the examiner which said that Penney uses the word 'robust' a lot - i.e., there will be robust meetings between Niallo, axel, POC & himself when it comes to discussing the lineout!

'Reps" is another word (as in CJ Stander has a good rep(uptation).

'Synergy' is another word he uses a lot (as in 'synergy' between Canterbury & Munster - both founded the same year - 1879).

Excellent points Sin É.

I said on Rugbydreamer's blog. I think that this team must start the Rabo campaign:

01 Wian du Preez
02 Damien Varley
03 Stephen Archer
04 David Foley
05 Billy Holland
06 Dave O’Callaghan
07 Tommy O’Donnell
08 James Coughlan
09 Peter Stringer
10 JJ Hanrahan
11 Johne Murphy
12 James Downey
13 Casey Laulala
14 Doug Howlett
15 Denis Hurley

We can assimilate BJ Botha, Mike Sherry, Donnacha Ryan, Paul O’Connell, CJ Stander, Peter O’Mahony, Conor Murray, Ronan O’Gara and Keith Earls as the weeks progress.

I think we could well be looking at this team by the 6 Nations:

01 Wian du Preez
02 Mike Sherry
03 BJ Botha
04 Donnacha Ryan
05 Paul O’Connell
06 Peter O’Mahony
07 CJ Stander
08 James Coughlan
09 Conor Murray
10 JJ Hanrahan
11 Simon Zebo
12 James Downey
13 Casey Laulala
14 Doug Howlett
15 Keith Earls

I see ROG's role as the guy who comes on to steady the ship if needed.

Thomond wrote:I don't think McGahan had the cojones to ever drop ROG Sin, Warwick was serious competition though. I would have had him starting.

This the same guy that nearly ended up in London Irish because Munster 'forgot' to get back to him about a new contract?

Warwick was good, but he could have had some very hairy moments as well.

McGahan can't drop ROG as hes an IRFU contracted player which supercedes the Munster coaches authority.

Unless the IRFU agree otherwise ROG will be starting 10 at Munster until his contract runs out. They aren't paying him to sit on the bench for Munster and need him fit for Ireland duty.

Just think London Irish could have had Paul Warwick.

Instead they have Ian Humphreys

ROG has been on the downslide for a while, that's my view anyway. Warwick would have done a very good job starting for us.

rodders wrote:McGahan can't drop ROG as hes an IRFU contracted player which supercedes the Munster coaches authority.

Unless the IRFU agree otherwise ROG will be starting 10 at Munster until his contract runs out. They aren't paying him to sit on the bench for Munster and need him fit for Ireland duty.

Perhaps this formed part of the Penney and Kidney debate. Apparently it was about "player usage and game management".

red_stag wrote:

rodders wrote:McGahan can't drop ROG as hes an IRFU contracted player which supercedes the Munster coaches authority.

Unless the IRFU agree otherwise ROG will be starting 10 at Munster until his contract runs out. They aren't paying him to sit on the bench for Munster and need him fit for Ireland duty.

Perhaps this formed part of the Penney and Kidney debate. Apparently it was about "player usage and game management".

It was.... Kidders told Penney robustly that he'd be picking ROG at 10 over a pina colada.....