Rate your national coach as it stands NOW. (6Ns)

First topic message reminder :

Do what it says on the tin.

Twelve months ago many posters had different views regarding their national manager/coach than are currently popular.

Rate your current your opinion.

And next year the results a repeat poll outcome can be compared.

Poll closes before SH Rugby Championship

"However the current Irish side has been on a downward trend for 3 seasons and although that is not all down to Kidney, it's time for a change and the sooner the better"

Very true Rodders. I mean I'm not, nor have I ever been Kidney's biggest fan. I wasn't keen on his initial appointment and have yet to see anything that would change my opinion on him as national coach. We cannot lay all the blame for Ireland's unacceptable performances at Kidneys door anymore than we can afford him all the praise for our GS. He is however ultimately responsible as stated in the job description and as they say, thems the breaks. So it's time for a change before we reach a point where reversing the situation will take a decade.

That Munster pack could beat up club packs up and down Europe all season long. I'm not saying no attacking from backs went on. I'm saying their gameplan centred around forward domination and top class control from ROG. And everything they did sprang from that. It was a great side. The Irish pack is good, but not good enough to get that type of forward domination against the best test teams.

Here's how I think Ireland should play. I'd use Clermont v Leinster this year as an example. The Clermont pack is monstrous. Leinster really struggled to deal with it. In the first half especially. But the difference between the sides was Leinsters attacking play. When they did get the ball they were sublime. Collectively they were a class above anything the star studded Clermont backline could produce. When they got opportunities they scored points.

All those players, bar Nacewa are available to Ireland. Plus Bowe/Earls/Trimble/Gilroy/Zebo/Jones etc. Kidney thinls we can't play like that in test rugby. But Clermont are an expensively assembled team of test players. And Leinster have knocked them out 3 years on the trot. Not only do I think Ireland can play in the Leinster style. I think they should. Like the way Spain have basically nicked and adapted the Barcelona playing style and picked the players that make Barcelona tick, doing exactly what they do week in week out, with the best Spanish players around them.

I might be wrong but I think Ireland would find more success if the played this way and I don't think Kidney is the man to do it. And 4 years is plenty of time for a head coach. Things can start to go stale anyway by that point. For how many years can you listen to the same man try to motivate you, before it's just not as motivating any more?

We relied on forward dominance but our play was nothing like Ireland's. No one would dispute that the way we paly doesn't suit us. We are trying to play a game that is suited to a side like Wales, with big, fast powerful runners. We don't have an abundance fo them and never will we , as a nation are built to play kind of like Leinster.

I'd accept Ruddock because I'd like to see a fresh face with new ideas.

That said I have real doubts about Ruddock. Although he won a GS I don't think things went well with Wales. Didn't seem to have the respect of the players.

Schmidt is a pipe dream I think, as is O'Shea.

I think Elwood would be a good shout. Hes done a fantastic job at Connaght.

Thomond wrote:We relied on forward dominance but our play was nothing like Ireland's. No one would dispute that the way we paly doesn't suit us. We are trying to play a game that is suited to a side like Wales, with big, fast powerful runners. We don't have an abundance fo them and never will we , as a nation are built to play kind of like Leinster.

I don't think we are playing like Wales at all, I think we are trying to play a quick offloading game but we're doing it off slow ball, and without getting go forward.

We don't have enough power and strike threat in the backs so our backrow do too much ball carrying to compensate, then our midfield end up doing the backrows job of securing the ball so when we get into 2 or 3 phases we have tight 5 forwards where our backs should be and we end up looking clueless and predictable.

Of 1st phase when the backrow are tied in none of the backs can break the gainline so we end up drifting sideways or knocking on.

I didn't say we're playing like Wales. I said we're playing a game Wales would be suited to. There is a difference i.e if we had powerful strike runners in the backs, like Wales, our forwards wouldn't have to carry as much and focus on the breakdown/rackle area which is what Wales' pack do mainly.

I'm sure Elwood would have ambitions to lead his country in the future. But he seems committed to a long term project at his native Connacht for now.

I'd like Conor O'Shea, but I've heard he fell out with the IRFU. Not sure how much politics and BS goes on in selecting a coach. But it mind stand against him.

Like Rodders, I'd have doubts about Ruddock.

We need a coach who can form a team around these players over the next number of years:

1) Healy
2) Best
3)
4) Ryan
5)
6) Ferris (injury concern)
7) O'Brien
8)
9)
10) Sexton
11)
12)
13)
14) Bowe
15) Kearney

I see all of these players having a significant role to play in the Ireland team for many years to come, and that is a pretty great group of guys to work with anyway. Filling in the gaps will be important, but that is not a bad backbone for any team.

I agree with rodders too that our players don't actually seem to know their roles within the team.

rodders wrote:I'd accept Ruddock because I'd like to see a fresh face with new ideas.

That said I have real doubts about Ruddock. Although he won a GS I don't think things went well with Wales. Didn't seem to have the respect of the players.

Ruddock got shafted by the WRU and never seemed to have their support - there were also big problems with player power and some real cliques within the squad, Jenkins suffered a bit with this as well.

I don't think it's really a true reflection of Ruddock, or an indication that it could happen again if he managed Ireland

Interesting reading posts on Declan Kidney. It's clear that the Irish fans are not happy with the current state of affaires but is it all Declan's fault, and if so why?

To counter the argument there have been injuries to key players, Bod, POC, Ross etc and these have been Counterproductive to the Irish effort.

New younger players haven't stepped up, or of they have it's only been one or two.

The other side the Irish provincial teams have excelled at HEC. Though they have a good number of talented foreigners contributing to their success it would be unfair to see that their Irish players are being carried, they are not. But more could be done, considering the control the IRFU have over the provinces as to who plays what positions, Irish Qualified or not.

I would say its harsh to appropriate all the blame at any international coaches feet in any circumstance but at international level, compared to provincial level, the Irish are under acheiving and are inconsistent.

I hope a solution is found soon as a good Irish team is a pleasure to watch and, with an Irish wife at home it makes my rugby watching more bearable.

Fair enough smirnoff, I just remember Alfie point blank refusing to give Ruddock any credit for the 2005 GS, instead putting it down to the players and Scott Johnson.... mind you that was just before he had his mini stroke...

It's not all Deccie's fault but a great deal of it is. He is employing a brand of rugby we are not suited to and that won't get consistent results for us. He has held on to guys like D'Arcy,DOC and ROG for too long only really bringing guys in when he has had to. You wonder do some guys care as much about the National side, it has been an issue before. While I think getting rid of Deccie would help I think we have a few more issues to deal with before we see serious results.

Thomond wrote:Schmidt probably won't take over I'd say. I wonder how god is he, he has an incredibly talented group of players, he is a pretty good coach but does he look better due to his players? I don't think so but we'll see when he leaves Leinster.


I would like Conor O'Shea he has done a great job with Quins but he doesn't seem to have many friends at the IRFU. After that Jake White seems to be one of the few free rugby coaches who would be decent but I think he would emply astyle similar to Deccie which doesn't suit us. So in short I haven't a clue!


Rodders, it'c reeping in a bit and some people saying it's a style Kidney has always palyed when he hasn't. He has by and large played a forward oriented style (although we could mix with our backs and our offloading was insane) but it is nothing like Ireland's style.

I think you only have to look at the difference Schmidt made in his first season to see how good he is.He turned us from a top 5 team with a chance of winning the HC into the best team in the comp playing in a style of rugby that seems suited to every player.Cheika gave us a lot and made us a strong European team but Schmidt has sprinkled the fairy dust that has made us great.

The question is could he do the same thing for Ireland,it's impossible to say but I'd love to see him get the chance.

I don't know ASLS , I think he is a very good coach but he has a talented crop of players too. I think other coaches could have won titles for Leinster too. Schmidt has done it with more style though.

So does Kidney though.

Thomond wrote:It's not all Deccie's fault but a great deal of it is. He is employing a brand of rugby we are not suited to and that won't get consistent results for us. He has held on to guys like D'Arcy,DOC and ROG for too long only really bringing guys in when he has had to. You wonder do some guys care as much about the National side, it has been an issue before. While I think getting rid of Deccie would help I think we have a few more issues to deal with before we see serious results.

I hate when people say things like that,I think it's insulting to the players and I've yet to see any evidence that points towards the players not caring.

rodders wrote:Fair enough smirnoff, I just remember Alfie point blank refusing to give Ruddock any credit for the 2005 GS, instead putting it down to the players and Scott Johnson.... mind you that was just before he had his mini stroke...

That's kindof what I meant - Alfie was very much in the centre of one of the cliques and following the GS he (and Henson) released autobiographies slating lots of the players/coaches. He was gone by the time Gats came in and there was a much better/more respectful attitude among the players and the cliques were broken up to a certain extent.

If it was an issue when Munster were succesful I don't see why it mightn't be Leinster are. I'm playing Devil's advocate a bit here though.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:He turned us from a top 5 team with a chance of winning the HC into the best team in the comp

You were the best team in the competition in 2009

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

Thomond wrote:It's not all Deccie's fault but a great deal of it is. He is employing a brand of rugby we are not suited to and that won't get consistent results for us. He has held on to guys like D'Arcy,DOC and ROG for too long only really bringing guys in when he has had to. You wonder do some guys care as much about the National side, it has been an issue before. While I think getting rid of Deccie would help I think we have a few more issues to deal with before we see serious results.

I hate when people say things like that,I think it's insulting to the players and I've yet to see any evidence that points towards the players not caring.

You are looking at it the wrong way. Think of it like this.

They always give 100% playing for Ireland

However playing for Munster, Ulster, Leinster they seem to be able to dig deeper and give 110%

Thomond wrote:I don't know ASLS , I think he is a very good coach but he has a talented crop of players too. I think other coaches could have won titles for Leinster too. Schmidt has done it with more style though.

Oh yeah he's not making a silk purse out of a sows ear or anything like that but if it was all down to the players then Leinster would have been dominating Europe before he came.Now we were doing pretty well but we were nothing like the team we are now and imo that is down to Schmidt but yes I agree there are other coaches who could have achieved what he has.I'm not claiming he's the best coach in the world just that he's a very good coach who can get the best out of the players available to him.

It would be interesting to hear from the Wales fan who voted that Gats should be sacked immediately and his/her reasoning behind it.

Not coz I think it's ridiculous or right/wrong but think it could lead to a really interesting discussion (unless it's a certain type of poster whose not actually a Wales fan )

I don't buy that at all Stag. I don't get that impression from many players or fans. Maybe it is a Munster thing, but I haven't seen it in the other players/fans. I know that a few of you Munster guys prefer your province over country. This isn't a dig, but an observation.

For the welsh posters who are wondering how much Kidney is to blame, I have seen plenty of complaints on here regarding Howley during the summer tour and how he didn't get the best out of the team. Use the same argument for Kidney basically. He can't be blamed for poor individual performances, but he isn't getting the best out of the team, and that is why he isn't up to the task.

red_stag wrote:

You are looking at it the wrong way. Think of it like this.

They always give 100% playing for Ireland

However playing for Munster, Ulster, Leinster they seem to be able to dig deeper and give 110%

I don't believe that at all,they give just as much when playing for Ireland imo,I personally (and with no evidenceto back it up) think they don't believe that what they are doing and no matter how hard you try if you think that what you're doing is wrong then you aren't going to react well to setbacks like conceding an early score etc..

I can only go from my own experience of playing but when I was under a coach who I didn't rate I still gave it my all but my performances weren't anywhere near as good as when we got in a new coach who really improved our team.

Are you basing that from here Roar? Maybe not on here, have I seen it put in the past there was the belief, which seemed to hold some truth, that munster guys were always not considered for Irish sides and lesser players were picked. Probably not today really bar maybe one or two underage sides, but that's why some prefer the provinceas they feel we were slighted in the past.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

rodders wrote:I'd accept Ruddock because I'd like to see a fresh face with new ideas.

That said I have real doubts about Ruddock. Although he won a GS I don't think things went well with Wales. Didn't seem to have the respect of the players.

Ruddock got shafted by the WRU and never seemed to have their support - there were also big problems with player power and some real cliques within the squad, Jenkins suffered a bit with this as well.

I don't think it's really a true reflection of Ruddock, or an indication that it could happen again if he managed Ireland

I agree with Smirnoff. Ruddock was a good man treated poorly.

Rory, don't worry I don't consider it a dig.

However it is not a Munster thing.

https://www.606v2.com/t26574-club-country-lions-priorites

On this thread there are some Irish supporters who say:

"Listen its Leinster or nothing. I could not care by a large amount how the Lions or even Ireland get on. If thier not in blue and have 2 shiny stars above the crest, then they can jog on. It's all about Leinster." DrSambo

"Im definitely leinster both europe and league before country" Leinsterfan4life

"It's Club first for me and even though I am a Heineken Cup addict, I think winning your domestic league has to be the principal aim at the start of any season" Rava

I just feel that there are more and more and more fans who feel like this and I think its only logical that some players will feel the same.

Well I know that Stag has said he doesn't feel the same way when Ireland win as he does when Munster win, and I wonder if more guys feel that way. I know that Sin has said he doesn't care about the other provinces or how they do and he expected me to feel the same way about Munster. However I watch every single game I can involving all 4 provinces, and I always support them (when it isn't Ulster). I want them all to progress and win the big competitions, and I want the Ireland team to reflect their success. I get that impression from most fans on here, apart from a few Munster guys.

I just don't buy that most fans or players do feel more love towards their province. Maybe at a particular time interest fades from the international game, especially due to our inconsistencies at the minute, but when it comes to the actual games, everyone is screaming for Ireland it seems.

I don't believe the players give more for their provinces, infact I believe they give far more for Ireland because the challenges the players face demand that they do.

Does anyone think Keith Earls gave less than 100% to stop Hosea Gear a few weeks ago? I don't, he just wasn't good enough to stop him.

I've rarely seen commitment and intensity from Irish sports people like I've seen from Sean O'Brien, Donnacha Ryan and Rory Best over the last few months... miles above the effort required for their respected provinces.

These guys give everything when they play for province and country but generally speaking, everything at International level means just that bit more.

red_stag wrote:Rory, don't worry I don't consider it a dig.

However it is not a Munster thing.

https://www.606v2.com/t26574-club-country-lions-priorites

On this thread there are some Irish supporters who say:

"Listen its Leinster or nothing. I could not care by a large amount how the Lions or even Ireland get on. If thier not in blue and have 2 shiny stars above the crest, then they can jog on. It's all about Leinster." DrSambo

"Im definitely leinster both europe and league before country" Leinsterfan4life

"It's Club first for me and even though I am a Heineken Cup addict, I think winning your domestic league has to be the principal aim at the start of any season" Rava

I just feel that there are more and more and more fans who feel like this and I think its only logical that some players will feel the same.

I'll give that thread a read stag, thanks.

I think a lot of the preference has to do with success. The provinces have been more successful than Ireland. So people prefer to watch their team win, however again I question if they really do prefer watching their province. Just think of all the passionate fights between irish fans on here. Everyone just seems to get so fired up about Ireland, and games involving Ireland also seem to spark much more passion than any provincial games. From what I have seen.

Rodders, read it again.

Players are always giving 100% for Ireland. They are committed.

However I just think that they can find another gear, dig deeper and try 110% when the provinces are on the line.

Maybe I'm wrong. Actually no, I'm never wrong!

Rory - Its a major rehash of something I wrote yonks back but here is an article I did on the subject,

http://redstagrugby.blogspot.ie/2012/04/elephant-in-room.html

A lot of interesting comments came in on that. People have strong views on the subject.

Im very concerned for Englands world cup chances. I dont for one moment think SL has the vision or knowledge to be able to take the side forward.

Again were stuck with a headcoach learning his trade at the helm of the national side, which is pertinently madness.

Yesterday, on another thread I made the comment that the current set up should be given until the end of the 6 nations (9 games), however on reflection if there isnt anything other than expediential improvement in selection, coaching and game plan, by the end of the Autumn series then heads should role. I really hope that the new head honcho at the rfu is on top of the situation as the wc is only 3 years away.

Englands problem is that the leading English coaches dont trust the rfu/RAndrew and have voted with their feet by not even applying for the job. Somebody has to realise that RA is the buffer and has to be removed.

Such nagging depression just wont go away. One day one of Malinder, Richards, Oshea or Baxter will get the job and England will have a true head coach with ability who understands what is required to win.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think a lot of the preference has to do with success.

Possibly but there are some Munster defeats that have hurt me more than any Irish defeats.

- Munster v All Blacks 2008
- Munster v Wasps 2004
- Munster v Ulster 2012

I have definitely never been so deflated after any Irish match. Similarly there has never been an Irish game that has compared to:

- Munster v Sale Sharks 2005
- Munster v Gloucester 2003
- Munster v Northampton 2011

It hurts me more when we lose and I get more excited about the victories.

red_stag wrote:Rodders, read it again.

Players are always giving 100% for Ireland. They are committed.

However I just think that they can find another gear, dig deeper and try 110% when the provinces are on the line.

Maybe I'm wrong. Actually no, I'm never wrong!

Rory - Its a major rehash of something I wrote yonks back but here is an article I did on the subject,

http://redstagrugby.blogspot.ie/2012/04/elephant-in-room.html

A lot of interesting comments came in on that. People have strong views on the subject.

Do you take much interest in the other provinces, Stag? Are you happy with the success of Leinster for example?

I shall give that a read too, thanks.

Kingelderfield,

I think Mallinder was very unlucky not to have got the top job. He would have set you right but I wouldn't write off Lancaster yet.

I think he has looked the part and has set some good foundations.

I think there are plenty of club/province/region/franchise fans of all nationalities that are more passionate about their 'club' side than their national team.

After all, a committed 'club' fan invests a lot more time, effort and money into supporting his side week-in, week-out and may identify more with the players etc. It not all about international rugby. It also needs to be remembered that many fans are not just supporting big sides, but also their local teams.

I agree that it's possible that this is the same with players. After all, they are rugby fans too. It could be more prevalent in Ireland as players tend to represent their home province and have very strong ties that may not be quite the same in other nations.

I wouldn't even say there is something wrong with that Rory. I rwas on the verge of tears at the Wasps game (best HC game ever) in 04. Similar to after ABs game, was unbelievable.


A lot of GAA guy/players will tell you winning an All-Ireland with their club is better, why? They have been palying with these guys since they were little. Slightly different in Musnter but you see those guys every day. The fans watch them every week, it seems pretty logical that we are more devoted to them. Is it the way it should be? Probably not.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

red_stag wrote:Rodders, read it again.

Players are always giving 100% for Ireland. They are committed.

However I just think that they can find another gear, dig deeper and try 110% when the provinces are on the line.

Maybe I'm wrong. Actually no, I'm never wrong!

Rory - Its a major rehash of something I wrote yonks back but here is an article I did on the subject,

http://redstagrugby.blogspot.ie/2012/04/elephant-in-room.html

A lot of interesting comments came in on that. People have strong views on the subject.

Do you take much interest in the other provinces, Stag? Are you happy with the success of Leinster for example?

I shall give that a read too, thanks.

I do. I have been to see Leinster, Ulster and Connacht all play in the Heineken Cup over the last few seasons. I have kitted out in blue to cheer on Leinster and green when Connacht were playing. I would happily wear white and support Ulster but you were playing us so I didn't bother.

Munster are my favourite team but the other provinces are after that.

sugarNspikes wrote:I agree that it's possible that this is the same with players. After all, they are rugby fans too. It could be more prevalent in Ireland as players tend to represent their home province and have very strong ties that may not be quite the same in other nations.

Exactly. I don't consider it an insult at all.

I'd say Schmidt is the best backs coach working in Europe. No doubt he inherited a very talented and highly professional and motivated squad though. You can doubt his ability to deal with a tougher job as head coach. We just don't know how he'd deal with it. But nobody can doubt his technical abilities as a backs coach. Just look at the difference in Leinsters attacking play after he arrived. And I've heard that part of Clermont's game has deteriorated a bit since he left them.

I want Ireland to have a coaching team with the same philosophy as Schmidt. I actually want Ireland, across all four provinces, to have the same philosophy as New Zealand. Forward power is a means to dominate possession. But there's no reason why your plan should stop there. We need to be smarter, more ambitious and more accurate with the possession we get. And I just don't think Kidney/Smal/Kiss bring anything in that regard. At the moment we play, dumb, fearful, error strewn rugby.

red_stag wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I think a lot of the preference has to do with success.

Possibly but there are some Munster defeats that have hurt me more than any Irish defeats.

- Munster v All Blacks 2008
- Munster v Wasps 2004
- Munster v Ulster 2012

I have definitely never been so deflated after any Irish match. Similarly there has never been an Irish game that has compared to:

- Munster v Sale Sharks 2005
- Munster v Gloucester 2003
- Munster v Northampton 2011

It hurts me more when we lose and I get more excited about the victories.

See, that is fair enough, and I do believe that you genuinely are a much bigger fan of Munster than any other team, as sometimes I think people do say it just based on success (I have said I prefer Ulster recently but I don't really). It is great that you do get so passionate about Munster, and maybe I don't understand it as Ulster haven't had the same success, and I personally attended an Ireland game before I had even watched Ulster on TV. However, for the players, even if they do feel more allegiance to their province (which is totally fine and probably natural) I wouldn't be happy knowing that they don't put in the same 110% for every game they play. No matter who it is for.

So you really follow all the provinces Roar? I would follow Munster like and obviously want all the others to do well unless it effects Munster.

Thomond, following other provinces is a good laugh.

I went over to England/Wales with Hughie last year. He came to support us in Scarlets v Munster and cheered us on decked in a Munster jersey and flags.

I returned the favour at Leinster v Bath and did the same for Leinster v Clermont.

I went to Connacht v Toulouse in France and got a great buzz of the Connacht fans.

Its great because you get the Heineken Cup buzz without the absolute panic that I usually get at Munster matches.

When Rodders and me were at Munster v Ulster this year there were French blokes from Biarritz over to take in the atmosphere.

I think thats why I don't get as into the Irish games. The lack of atmosphere.

I would also say that for 99% of players in Ireland, representing the national team would be the biggest goal in their careers. Even if they do feel more allegiance to their province. Pretty much every player would want to get the chance to represent Ireland.

Thomond wrote:So you really follow all the provinces Roar? I would follow Munster like and obviously want all the others to do well unless it effects Munster.

This season I watched every single Munster or Leinster game that was on TG4 or RTE without fail, and TG4 in particular has been fantastic with its coverage. I have actually cancelled certain occasions to hang out with friends to watch Munster/Leinster in fact. I also try watching Connacht every time they are on TV too.

I'm not trying to wear my Ireland badge here and boast, I am just making the point that all the provinces mean a great deal to me, and I follow all of the games that I can. I love seeing potential Ireland stars in each team too.

I like to see the Irish provinces beat foreign teams. But I want Leinster to beat the other provinces more than anyone else. I jump out of my seat and shout like a lunatic when Leinster score a crucial try against Munster.

That has really nothing to do with test rugby though.Nothing whatsoever. They have the same regional rivalries in every country in every sport. They used to have the same regional rivalry excuse in Spain. In fact their regional rivalries are more intense and hateful. Particularly Madrid v Barcelona.

But where are these rivalries now that the team is playing the right game plan, winning games and dominating world soccer? They've completely evaporated. It was just an excuse for their underachieving. Any regional difficulties were easily overcome by a good national coach.

The same goes for Ireland U20 games etc.