IRFU central contracts

First topic message reminder :

I'm a big fan of the central contract system (not a good time for an Englishman as his cricket team has been royally sha88ed by Biltog's lot). But I went on to the IRFU site http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/search.php and did a search for them as there was no obvious link elsewhere on the site.

No results found.

was the response.

Who's actually centrally-contracted for Ireland?

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Maybe you should just go and find a quote from McNaughton which actually supports your point rather than trying to twist one that contradicts it.

Sorry rods, someone has obviously filled your head with this notion that Ulster is some sort of independent republic - its not. Its a branch of the IRFU. The IRFU gives the Ulster branch (and other provinces as well) - 4/5m a year - of course the IRFU own Ulster !

DOC and D'Arcy don't deserve contracts. They shouldn't be starting for their province and or their country.

Of course no one should be guaranteed a spot in the squad or team. That's just stupid. I agree with the idea of the contracts and tying our best players to Ireland but the whole guaranteed spot stuff is a farce.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:Which of these are not worth a central contract?
1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Mike Ross
4. DOC & Donncha Ryan
5. POC
6. Ferris
7.
8. Heaslip
9.
10. ROG & Sexton
11. Keith Earls
12. Gordon D'Arcy & Paddy Wallace
13. BOD
14. Tommy Bowe & Andrew Trimble
15. Kearney

Its hardly excessive!

7 Leinster, 5 Ulster, 5 Munster

None of them.

In what way does ccing these players help the provinces or Ireland? I'm getting nothing but mixed messages. That is just an impressive list of Ireland's best players.

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Maybe you should just go and find a quote from McNaughton which actually supports your point rather than trying to twist one that contradicts it.

Sorry rods, someone has obviously filled your head with this notion that Ulster is some sort of independent republic - its not. Its a branch of the IRFU. The IRFU gives the Ulster branch (and other provinces as well) - 4/5m a year - of course the IRFU own Ulster !

This is so, so stupid. The IRFU pay for all of our players in a sense. In the sense they give us money and it goes into the pot which we use to pay players wages. There are also revenue streams from other sources such as sponsorship, merchandising and ticket sales that the Ulster Branch uses.

The Branches do operate with some degree of independence in terms of finances, whilst they depend on subsidies from the IRFU (they are of course part of the same parent organisation) they have their own budget and revenue streams as well.

Portnoy wrote:
In what way does ccing these players help the provinces or Ireland? I'm getting nothing but mixed messages. That is just an impressive list of Ireland's best players.

If they are playing well it helps both, as the CC keeps the players in the country, and helps the provinces financially as well.

However if they are not playing well then it creates a problem for the selecters and coaches.

Portnoy wrote:In what way does ccing these players help the provinces or Ireland? I'm getting nothing but mixed messages. That is just an impressive list of Ireland's best players.

Think about it Portnoys. The proportion of the wages a province pays an international player is lower than England or Wales. The bulk of their time is spent playing international rugby and that is what they are paid for.

They are not paid by the province for the weeks they are not available. In Wales the Blues play 100% of, say, Jamie Roberts salary. He spends 50% of his time with them and 50% of his time with Wales. So they are seriously out of pocket for a player they have unavailable for large chunks of the Pro12 season.

Ulster would pay a lower proportion of Tommy Bowes salary. Don't know what it is of course, but for the sake of argument let's say it's 30%. Ireland would play 70% in this hypothetical situation. Because he'll be with Ireland a lot. This frees up Ulster to spend more of their budget on the players they'll need to cover his absence.

Notch wrote:

Portnoy wrote:In what way does ccing these players help the provinces or Ireland? I'm getting nothing but mixed messages. That is just an impressive list of Ireland's best players.

Think about it Portnoys. The proportion of the wages a province pays an international player is lower than England or Wales. The bulk of their time is spent playing international rugby and that is what they are paid for.

They are not paid by the province for the weeks they are not available. In Wales the Blues play 100% of, say, Jamie Roberts salary. He spends 50% of his time with them and 50% of his time with Wales. So they are seriously out of pocket for a player they have unavailable for large chunks of the season.

Ulster would pay a lower proportion of Tommy Bowes salary. Don't know what it is of course, but for the sake of argument let's say it's 30%. Ireland would play 70% in this hypothetical situation. Because he'll be with Ireland a lot. This frees up Ulster to spend more of their budget on the players they'll need to cover his absence.

I'm garnering a lot of information Notch.

I'm no longer a great fan of central contracts (on the Irish model anyway) as they seem to hamstring the nation to certain players for too long. That puts a lot of pressure on the national coach to deploy players which hold a golden ticket.

But in England , I'm concerned that clubs are not compensated properly for supplying players given there's a wage cap. So far as I can see I have only deepened in my opinion that marquee players should be English (or at least EQ). But the very nature of English rugby makes that very different from Ireland (Ulster apart).

How is Ulster apart?

The only difference between Ulster and the other three Irish provinces is tax played by the organisation and its employees. Everything else is the same.

Ulster have obviously figured out the secret to perfect biltong and the South African delicacies. We in Munster are doing alright but offer a shedload of cash to people to compensate for our lack of brilliant South African eateries

Thomond wrote:Ulster have obviously figured out the secret to perfect biltong and the South African delicacies. We in Munster are doing alright but offer a shedload of turnips to people to compensate for our lack of brilliant South African eateries

Fixed that Thom

I am half and half in central contracts. On one hand i like the idea but on the other hand it helps keep older non performing players around long past their due by date.

Most people on here know my views on D'Arcy, he is my main reason for not liking central contracts. He has only performed for Ireland in about 1 in 5 matches for Ireland for the last 3 years and yet is still rewarded with a central contract. This blows my mind.

Great player that he was in his time but just not cutting it now and by rewarding him with one is not bringing younger talent to the fore.
Still has alot to offer Leinster as i still rate him at that level but he is no longer of International standard so not deserving of a contract.

Sorry Notch. No slight intended. I meant to say that Ulster (like all English clubs) have a significant number of overseas first team players.

Ulster have the same number of foreigners as every other province Portnoy. Leinster are the only ones who could field a first 15 that could still win the HC. No difference really between Ulster or Munster

eirebilly wrote:I am half and half in central contracts.

OK whats the half that you like then Billser?.... that they help keep Tuohy out of the picture? ...

Portnoy wrote:Sorry Notch. No slight intended. I meant to say that Ulster (like all English clubs) have a significant number of overseas first team players.

Did you just... nah I must have misread that... you didn't did you... ....

Portnoy you cad sir!

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I am half and half in central contracts.

OK whats the half that you like then Billser?.... that they help keep Tuohy out of the picture? ...

Feicar , I still dont see him as International standard just yet.

I like the idea of attaching good up and coming players but there has to be a point when we thank certain players for their contribution and let them go. I consider ROG to also be one to let go of .

Only on the wind up Billser

Here I'll even buy one for Sin and Portnoy

Well keep it to one for Portnoy, i heard he gets a little wild after two

Portnoy wrote:Sorry Notch. No slight intended. I meant to say that Ulster (like all English clubs) have a significant number of overseas first team players.

No, we don't

We have the following players who are not eligible to play for Ireland;

Ruan Pienaar, Johann Muller, John Afoa, Nick Williams, Jared Payne

5 out of 40 contracted players. A limit set by the IRFU.

eirebilly wrote:I am half and half in central contracts. On one hand i like the idea but on the other hand it helps keep older non performing players around long past their due by date.

Most people on here know my views on D'Arcy, he is my main reason for not liking central contracts. He has only performed for Ireland in about 1 in 5 matches for Ireland for the last 3 years and yet is still rewarded with a central contract. This blows my mind.

Great player that he was in his time but just not cutting it now and by rewarding him with one is not bringing younger talent to the fore.
Still has alot to offer Leinster as i still rate him at that level but he is no longer of International standard so not deserving of a contract.

Billy, D'Arcy is a bad example for you to use considering he didn't have a central contract for the last 2 years!
He only got it back recently and that is probably down to the fact that he has been playing continually for Ireland and being paid out of Leinster's budget, so the IRFU are making up for that now.

Conor Murray is still on his first provincial contract with Munster and that has not stopped him getting selected for Ireland. Same for Sean O'Brien.

Thomond wrote:DOC and D'Arcy don't deserve contracts. They shouldn't be starting for their province and or their country.

Of course no one should be guaranteed a spot in the squad or team. That's just stupid. I agree with the idea of the contracts and tying our best players to Ireland but the whole guaranteed spot stuff is a farce.

DOC or D'Arcy might not deserve central contracts, but their club deserves to not be paying them when they are away on international duty so much. My view on the new central contract that D'Arcy got is because Leinster has been carrying his wages for the last 2 seasons while he has been first choice for Ireland - yes first choice centre for Ireland with no central contract!

Its not the central contract why players are picked, its because of who is viewed as the better player.

Luke Fitz (with central contract) missed out on going to the world cup to Fergus McFadden (no central contract). Explain that one!

Sin é wrote:
Conor Murray is still on his first provincial contract with Munster and that has not stopped him getting selected for Ireland. Same for Sean O'Brien.

That would be a good point Sin, but for the fact that as you have pointed out already, neither of those two have players in front of them on central contracts.

For example O'Brien established himself first in Stevie Ferris absence and then David Wallace (gone but not forgotten) retired.

Sin é wrote:

Billy, D'Arcy is a bad example for you to use considering he didn't have a central contract for the last 2 years!
He only got it back recently and that is probably down to the fact that he has been playing continually for Ireland and being paid out of Leinster's budget, so the IRFU are making up for that now.

Conor Murray is still on his first provincial contract with Munster and that has not stopped him getting selected for Ireland. Same for Sean O'Brien.

The way i see it Sin é is that no matter what D'Arcy's contract was, he has not deserved one now. Playing for Ireland without a contract, he still played badly so why does he get one now?

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Conor Murray is still on his first provincial contract with Munster and that has not stopped him getting selected for Ireland. Same for Sean O'Brien.

That would be a good point Sin, but for the fact that as you have pointed out already, neither of those two have players in front of them on central contracts.

For example O'Brien established himself first in Stevie Ferris absence and then David Wallace (gone but not forgotten) retired.

They did actually. Tomas O'Leary was on a central contract, as was Denis Leamy who usually made the Ireland bench, but O'Brien started. Strings was replaced by Tomas O'Leary while Strings was still on a central contract.

Then there was Luke Fitz on central contract left at home & McFadden brought.

eirebilly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Billy, D'Arcy is a bad example for you to use considering he didn't have a central contract for the last 2 years!
He only got it back recently and that is probably down to the fact that he has been playing continually for Ireland and being paid out of Leinster's budget, so the IRFU are making up for that now.

Conor Murray is still on his first provincial contract with Munster and that has not stopped him getting selected for Ireland. Same for Sean O'Brien.

The way i see it Sin é is that no matter what D'Arcy's contract was, he has not deserved one now. Playing for Ireland without a contract, he still played badly so why does he get one now?

Because he looks better than McFadden in Powerade Billboards?

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Conor Murray is still on his first provincial contract with Munster and that has not stopped him getting selected for Ireland. Same for Sean O'Brien.

That would be a good point Sin, but for the fact that as you have pointed out already, neither of those two have players in front of them on central contracts.

For example O'Brien established himself first in Stevie Ferris absence and then David Wallace (gone but not forgotten) retired.

They did actually. Tomas O'Leary was on a central contract, as was Denis Leamy who usually made the Ireland bench, but O'Brien started. Strings was replaced by Tomas O'Leary while Strings was still on a central contract.

Then there was Luke Fitz on central contract left at home & McFadden brought.

OK good point...actually no it isn't. Are Luke and TOL still on contracts? No. Is it likely that when they were dropped the IRFU had an inkling that they weren't going to be renewed?

TOLGate and FitzGate solved. Nothing else to see there.

I suppose Microsoft Ireland would be happy enough to bring in a contractor on a daily rate to do your work, whilst paying you sit at home for 2 years?

There should be an EPS thingy announced every year, and the IRFU should pay each player in it. That would be less rigid than the current setup. Because it could change each year.

So say, Fitzy is dropped from the Irish squad for a season, his wages would drop. And if he gets back into the squad the next year his wages go up.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Conor Murray is still on his first provincial contract with Munster and that has not stopped him getting selected for Ireland. Same for Sean O'Brien.

That would be a good point Sin, but for the fact that as you have pointed out already, neither of those two have players in front of them on central contracts.

For example O'Brien established himself first in Stevie Ferris absence and then David Wallace (gone but not forgotten) retired.

They did actually. Tomas O'Leary was on a central contract, as was Denis Leamy who usually made the Ireland bench, but O'Brien started. Strings was replaced by Tomas O'Leary while Strings was still on a central contract.

Then there was Luke Fitz on central contract left at home & McFadden brought.

OK good point...actually no it isn't. Are Luke and TOL still on contracts? No. Is it likely that when they were dropped the IRFU had an inkling that they weren't going to be renewed?

TOLGate and FitzGate solved. Nothing else to see there.

I suppose Microsoft Ireland would be happy enough to bring in a contractor on a daily rate to do your work, whilst paying you sit at home for 2 years?

Luke Fitz was offered a new central contract, didn't like the pay cut and then got injured again whereupon the IRFU withdrew the offer. So I doubt very much if central contracts made a blind bit of difference when both O'Leary & Fitz were left at home from the world cup.

You haven't explained Denis Leamy (got a new central contract earlier this year, but since had to retire)?

Feckless Rogue wrote:There should be an EPS thingy announced every year, and the IRFU should pay each player in it. That would be less rigid than the current setup. Because it could change each year.

So say, Fitzy is dropped from the Irish squad for a season, his wages would drop. And if he gets back into the squad the next year his wages go up.

Look, players are not going to accept the uncertainty of that. Hence exits by players like Hines, wanneberg, Warwick, Mafi to France when they were offered 1 year contracts here and 2/3 year ones in France.

I presume if a player got injured, you wouldn't pay them either

That would be good thing sin. Clear out the dead wood and make way for new blood to come in.

Let the old guard go to Japan or France and earn a big payday.

The players have it far too easy over here.

Sin é wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:There should be an EPS thingy announced every year, and the IRFU should pay each player in it. That would be less rigid than the current setup. Because it could change each year.

So say, Fitzy is dropped from the Irish squad for a season, his wages would drop. And if he gets back into the squad the next year his wages go up.

Look, players are not going to accept the uncertainty of that. Hence exits by players like Hines, wanneberg, Warwick, Mafi to France when they were offered 1 year contracts here and 2/3 year ones in France.

I presume if a player got injured, you wouldn't pay them either

That's actually good point Sin. It probably would result in players leaving Ireland for a more certain income in France. I withdraw that proposal.

I love the fact that we have managed to keep nearly all the best Irish players in Ireland. That's central to our provincial success.

rodders wrote:That would be good thing sin. Clear out the dead wood and make way for new blood to come in.

Let the old guard go to Japan or France and earn a big payday.

The players have it far too easy over here.

You think they would hang around until their 30s to do that They would be gone when in their prime.

Tommy on an 'earner' (as Jack Charlton used to call it). Wonder did the Ospreys know about this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub8_YGF96ws

by the way Sexton, Heaslip & O'Leary were all Guinness 'ambassadors' as well!

I actually don't think that many would leave at all sin. The prospect of playing International rugby plus the tax rebate would be enough carrot for most players.

France and Japan apart wages are much lower than they were in most countries.

But if players see older players being discarded as soon as they see 30, they are going to decide they better move when they are 27 for a big lucrative contract and maybe come back to Ireland then in their 30s to retire. Would Ulster be able to hold onto Stephen Ferris for instance if he thought that he was going to be discarded as soon as he got to 30?

DOC gets a lot of stick here ... but one big advantage with him is that he is rately injured!

Some comparisons (over last 2 seasons - all made the world cup)
DOC: 3999 mins international time was: [1692]
Tuohy: 3549 [229]
Muller: 3529 mins [70 mins]
Ryan: 3324 mins [777]
Cullen: 2955 mins [219]
POC: 2757 [1118]
Tuohy: 332

Who said anything about discarding 30 year olds?

My suggestion was that there should be no central contracts at all and that the money should be distributed to the provinces to pay salaries as they see fit to IQ players. In return the IRFU have full access to the players for Ireland duty as per required.

All players are picked on merit and there is no pressure to select certain players because they are on central contracts.

I don't like it at all rodders. You're suggesting the IRFU give money to the provinces to make up the shortfall- it's less efficient economically.

When I think of Ferris, I don't think of him as an Ulster player. He's an Ireland player who happens to be based in Ulster. The system is geared towards Ireland, getting the guys on central contracts ready to play test rugby. I think it's inefficient that negotiations should take place with Ulster in that case. You go to a Pro12 game- odds are Ferris won't be playing. He's held back for the big games in the Heineken Cup and International Rugby. Let the team that is utilising the players pay them. The IRFU topping up the big names salaries makes our wage bill artificially low.

The system works- it's selection thats broken and needs addressed. Central contracts can't guarantee a place in the side. And they don't either, with Wallace being omitted this summer.

I do agree with reducing the number of central contracts further. Maybe even down to as few as 12. Genuinely only for the very, very best.

rodders wrote:Who said anything about discarding 30 year olds?

My suggestion was that there should be no central contracts at all and that the money should be distributed to the provinces to pay salaries as they see fit to IQ players. In return the IRFU have full access to the players for Ireland duty as per required.

All players are picked on merit and there is no pressure to select certain players because they are on central contracts.

The IRFU have full access to all the players - as I've pointed out earlier, Mike Sherry has travelled to New Zealand twice in the season and didn't get a minute of gametime. Munster sent 3 hookers to the world cup (Flannery, Varley & Sherry) with none of them on central contracts (Flannery has been on a pay for play contract when sorting out his injury).

Players have been dropped who had central contracts and players who don't have been picked.

This way, the provinces are incentivised to produce top class players like Ferris and not a load of average rabo/HC players which are useless to the IRFU internationally.

Sin é wrote:This way, the provinces are incentivised to produce top class players like Ferris and not a load of average rabo/HC players which are useless to the IRFU internationally.

No offence, but I don't think the provinces need any extra incentive to try and produce the best players they can.

Notch wrote:The system works- it's selection thats broken and needs addressed. Central contracts can't guarantee a place in the side. And they don't either, with Wallace being omitted this summer.

I don't believe it does work and thats why we've seen certain players be selected time and time again despite performing poorly.

Stephen Ferris is seen as an Ireland player, and that is the problem. He should be seen as an Ulster player, like Touhy or Henry or Henderson or Gilroy, who has to perform to merit selection.

Sin é wrote:
Players have been dropped who had central contracts and players who don't have been picked.

Yes but that is very rare. Generally speaking the central contract players are always picked, regardless of their form or others.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Players have been dropped who had central contracts and players who don't have been picked.

Yes but that is very rare. Generally speaking the central contract players are always picked, regardless of their form or others.

Examples please!

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Players have been dropped who had central contracts and players who don't have been picked.

Yes but that is very rare. Generally speaking the central contract players are always picked, regardless of their form or others.

Examples please!

Donnacha O'Callaghan, Dennis Leamy, Ronan O'Gara, Tomas O'Leary, Keith Earls, Gordon D'arcy, Paddy Wallace, Jamie Heaslip.....

In fact it would be easier to name the players who've been picked on merit over the past few seasons than those who haven't.

Cian Healy, Stephen Ferris, Paul O'Connell, Mike Ross, Jonny Sexton, Sean O'Brien, Brian O'Driscoll and Tommy Bowe and perhaps Rory Best are the only players who are head and shoulders above their nearest positional rivals. Yet there's 20 odd on central contracts.

Too many other average/mediocre, past their prime and/or out of sorts players have been guaranteed a spot when they haven't at times deserved it. That is in my opinion heavily down to the central contracts.

Think the stubborn nature of Irish people (as can be seen even in this debate) is at play here. IRFU paid for players to play, and wont cut their losses with them. It's part of what makes us Irish, and thus its only natural that it translates into the team reppin' us! All said and done though, the system obviously needs to be adjusted.

[quote="rodders"]

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Players have been dropped who had central contracts and players who don't have been picked.

Yes but that is very rare. Generally speaking the central contract players are always picked, regardless of their form or others.

Examples please!

Donnacha O'Callaghan - debatable. DOC - fittest lock (most injury free) in Ireland and he is still a better option than Tuohy.
Dennis Leamy - who did Denis Leamy block? Sean O'Brien?
Ronan O'Gara - who did he block - Paddy Wallace?
Tomas O'Leary - eh, Conor Murray was starting ahead of him when he lost form.
Keith Earls - who did he block? Andrew Trimble & Luke Fitz were both on central contracts.
Gordon D'arcy - Paddy Wallace - still the best No.12 in Ireland and Paddy Wallace is the 2nd best.
Jamie Heaslip - still the best No. 8.

As I keep pointing out, even if those players were not on central contract, they will be involved with Ireland and its their province who has to be able to cover for them when they are away.

In fact it would be easier to name the players who've been picked on merit over the past few seasons than those who haven't.

Cian Healy, Stephen Ferris, Paul O'Connell, Mike Ross, Jonny Sexton, Sean O'Brien, Brian O'Driscoll and Tommy Bowe and perhaps Rory Best are the only players who are head and shoulders above their nearest positional rivals. Yet there's 20 odd on central contracts.

Too many other average/mediocre, past their prime and/or out of sorts players have been guaranteed a spot when they haven't at times deserved it. That is in my opinion heavily down to the central contracts.

Even if you don't rate them, they still have to play international rugby on a very regular basis. I note you don't seem to have any issue with Andrew Trimble having a central contract, but you do with Keith Earls

For the record Earls is a better winger than Trimble, Luke & McFadden. He is also a better centre than Cave, McFadden & Paddy Wallace.

kunu wrote:Think the stubborn nature of Irish people (as can be seen even in this debate) is at play here. IRFU paid for players to play, and wont cut their losses with them. It's part of what makes us Irish, and thus its only natural that it translates into the team reppin' us! All said and done though, the system obviously needs to be adjusted.

They have cut their losses. Tomas O'Leary & Luke being the most obvious and recent examples.

What some people can't get their head around is that invariable the players that are the next big thing, are not the next big thing.

For instance, the world cup would have been some fun if we were depending on Sexton's boot to win a few games. The Welsh would have put a 60pts on us because they know they could infringe all day and never be punished for it.

Sin é wrote:
For the record Earls is a better winger than Trimble, Luke & McFadden. He is also a better centre than Cave, McFadden & Paddy Wallace.

Would have agreed with you after the 6n's, but that missed tackle in 3rd test was just humiliating. Luke is better option

Sin é wrote:
Even if you don't rate them, they still have to play international rugby on a very regular basis. I note you don't seem to have any issue with Andrew Trimble having a central contract, but you do with Keith Earls

a) I didn't say I didn't rate anyone. I just said I believe that based on merit and ability I can only see 8 players maximum who you could argue are comfortably worth their spot on a regular* basis. That means there are at least 10 others who are getting guaranteed regular* selection not entirely based on what they are delivering on the field relative to others in their positions.

* key word

b) I don't know how many times I have to point out that I don't agree with any central contracts or anyone being guaranteed selection. Not Earls, not Trimble, not Ferris. No one.

kunu wrote:

Sin é wrote:
For the record Earls is a better winger than Trimble, Luke & McFadden. He is also a better centre than Cave, McFadden & Paddy Wallace.

Would have agreed with you after the 6n's, but that missed tackle in 3rd test was just humiliating. Luke is better option

The 3rd test was humiliating for everyone - at least Earls had the excuse that he had played a different position in his most recent games for Ireland and he probably wasn't fully fit as he missed the 2nd test. Fullback(ba-bas), 12 NZ and wing NZ having played centre for the 6Ns. Funny how players like Luke who are not playing are always better. Short memory of Luke's last times in a green shirt (when he was dropped even though he had a central contract).

Sin é wrote:For the record Earls is a better winger than Trimble, Luke & McFadden. He is also a better centre than Cave, McFadden & Paddy Wallace.

Of course he is. Italy and Russia are still having nightmares about him .