IRFU central contracts

First topic message reminder :

I'm a big fan of the central contract system (not a good time for an Englishman as his cricket team has been royally sha88ed by Biltog's lot). But I went on to the IRFU site http://www.irishrugby.ie/news/search.php and did a search for them as there was no obvious link elsewhere on the site.

No results found.

was the response.

Who's actually centrally-contracted for Ireland?

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
It varies. Top earners would be BOD & POC. Would also be dependent on position played. In the good times, BOD was on about 500K per annum and Luke Fitz was on 280K. All have been reduced now. Think BOD is on about 350K and Luke was originally offered 200K (which he wasn't happy about and then the IRFU took back the offer and he is now just on a provincial contract with Leinster).

Bowe is the highest earner is he not, rumours are he is on 350k sterling.

I thought the issue with Fitzgerald was over image rights? He wanted more control or money over the use of his image or something, like O'Driscoll has. The IRFU wouldn't agree.

Bowe might be the highest paid, but I'd say Rors is topping up what the IRFU are paying him. There is no way that Tommy Bowe (a winger) would be earning more than anyone else on the Irish team, particularly the captain & vice-captain (not to mention outhalfs & props!).

As for Luke - all players took wage cuts - it was published what his wage cut was (from 280K to 200K).

Rava wrote:

Thomond wrote:Sexton played 32 games last year I think. 16 for Leinster 16 for Ireland?

I think I heard someone say that, he palyed over 25 anyway.

Thom, you are correct.

Leinster 16 games (15 + 1)
Ireland 16 games (12 + 4)

His season started against Scotland on 6th August 2011 and finished against New Zealand on 23rd June 2012.
Heinke Van Der Merwe played 31 games - all for Leinster.

To be exact:

Sexton (central contract)
Leinster: 15+1 games. 1125 mins. Ireland 12+4 games. 967 mins. Total playing time = 2092 mins.

sean O'brien (provincial contract with Leinster)
Leinster: 14+1 games. 1007 mins. Ireland 13 games. 970 minutes. Total playing time = 1977 mins.

Heinke Van Der Merwe
Leinter: 18+13. Total minutes played = 1570 mins.

Ian Madigan (provincial contract with Leinster)
Leinster: 16+9. Total playing time = 1450 mins.

Nacewa (provincial contract with Leinster)
Leinster: 26+1. Total playing time = 2107.

Sin they also get paid based on what they are worth in terms of marketing. It's a business you know.

Bowe is one of the most well know and marketable Irish players hence the IRFU broke the bank to sign him.

Sin é wrote:

Rava wrote:

Thomond wrote:Sexton played 32 games last year I think. 16 for Leinster 16 for Ireland?

I think I heard someone say that, he palyed over 25 anyway.

Thom, you are correct.

Leinster 16 games (15 + 1)
Ireland 16 games (12 + 4)

His season started against Scotland on 6th August 2011 and finished against New Zealand on 23rd June 2012.
Heinke Van Der Merwe played 31 games - all for Leinster.

To be exact:

Sexton (central contract)
Leinster: 15+1 games. 1125 mins. Ireland 12+4 games. 967 mins. Total playing time = 2092 mins.

sean O'brien (provincial contract with Leinster)
Leinster: 14+1 games. 1007 mins. Ireland 13 games. 970 minutes. Total playing time = 1977 mins.

Heinke Van Der Merwe
Leinter: 18+13. Total minutes played = 1570 mins.

Ian Madigan (provincial contract with Leinster)
Leinster: 16+9. Total playing time = 1450 mins.

Nacewa (provincial contract with Leinster)
Leinster: 26+1. Total playing time = 2107.

Where did you get the stats Sin é?

rodders wrote:Sin they also get paid based on what they are worth in terms of marketing. It's a business you know.

Bowe is one of the most well know and marketable Irish players hence the IRFU broke the bank to sign him.

The most marketable guys for the IRFU (and used by 02 for their recent rugby ads (02 are IRFU main sponsors) are BOD, POC & Sexton. http://www.joe.ie/rugby/rugby-news/ireland-rugby-stars-play-secret-game-in-clontarf-0013516-1

Anyway, isn't the system that they get paid extra if they are used (Woody won that battle as in his time they used to be used and they got nothing out of it).

Portnoy wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Rava wrote:

Thomond wrote:Sexton played 32 games last year I think. 16 for Leinster 16 for Ireland?

I think I heard someone say that, he palyed over 25 anyway.

Thom, you are correct.

Leinster 16 games (15 + 1)
Ireland 16 games (12 + 4)

His season started against Scotland on 6th August 2011 and finished against New Zealand on 23rd June 2012.
Heinke Van Der Merwe played 31 games - all for Leinster.

To be exact:

Sexton (central contract)
Leinster: 15+1 games. 1125 mins. Ireland 12+4 games. 967 mins. Total playing time = 2092 mins.

sean O'brien (provincial contract with Leinster)
Leinster: 14+1 games. 1007 mins. Ireland 13 games. 970 minutes. Total playing time = 1977 mins.

Heinke Van Der Merwe
Leinter: 18+13. Total minutes played = 1570 mins.

Ian Madigan (provincial contract with Leinster)
Leinster: 16+9. Total playing time = 1450 mins.

Nacewa (provincial contract with Leinster)
Leinster: 26+1. Total playing time = 2107.

Where did you get the stats Sin é?

http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/playersearch.html

http://www.itsrugby.co.uk/player_4657.html

Personally I don’t like the idea of the central contracts, as Rodders says it creates an group of untouchable players who are set up for 3 years and have a contract regardless of their form or what they’re providing to the national team.

The reason that Ireland has them is more to do with image rights than anything else because all Irish players are subject to the player management scheme, Reddan for example, can’t play more games for Leinster than Sexton just because he doesn’t have a central contract.

I'm happy with the EPS system and prefer it to central contracts like the Irish system (the Kiwi on sounds better but impossible for the RFU to manage with the number of teams and players were have).

What the PRL wanted is here
http://www.premiershiprugby.com/downloads/PRLTermsto_RFU270307.pdf
Some of it is pretty funny. But basically the new deal is:

Limited to 32 games a season.
Squad together for a full 2 weeks before the start of the AI and 6N, and stay together during the 6N
RFU has medical control over the players
Additional AI games every other year and the profits are split between the RFU and PRL.
Annual training scheme for each EPS player drawn up between the RFU and club.
The full 32 players are named in July each year. 5 changes are allowed in January. Injuried players can be replaced. Players playing out of position or totally out of form can be replaced.

All in all I'm pretty happy with that. There are only two grips really, a guy called in to replace someone who is injured during the international periods doesn't need to be rested. But the guy who missed the England games while injured does. The only other issue is the payment. I'd rather the EPS payments were outside of the salary cap (if one team had a lot of EPS players they have to fund their replacements for the around 15/16 games within the salary cap.

What would central contracts give us over that?

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Sin they also get paid based on what they are worth in terms of marketing. It's a business you know.

Bowe is one of the most well know and marketable Irish players hence the IRFU broke the bank to sign him.

The most marketable guys for the IRFU (and used by 02 for their recent rugby ads (02 are IRFU main sponsors) are BOD, POC & Sexton. http://www.joe.ie/rugby/rugby-news/ireland-rugby-stars-play-secret-game-in-clontarf-0013516-1

Anyway, isn't the system that they get paid extra if they are used (Woody won that battle as in his time they used to be used and they got nothing out of it).

Thats because they didn't have Bowe's image rights until now, the Ospreys did and why he was the highest paid player in Britain whilst at Ospreys and now the highest paid in Ireland.

The New Zealand system is much better than the Irish one. The Irish one results in over the hill players on large central contracts. You wonder are they still getting picked for what they bring to the team or because of how much they cost?

Mickado wrote:Personally I don’t like the idea of the central contracts, as Rodders says it creates an group of untouchable players who are set up for 3 years and have a contract regardless of their form or what they’re providing to the national team.

The reason that Ireland has them is more to do with image rights than anything else because all Irish players are subject to the player management scheme, Reddan for example, can’t play more games for Leinster than Sexton just because he doesn’t have a central contract.

The central contracts are really a bonus to the provinces. Effectively, the IRFU say to Munster "I'm going to pay Paul O'Connell's wages for the next 2 years and I want you to play him in important games and not overuse him. The fact that I'm paying him means you better get an extra lock to cover games with the money you are saving."

Then you have the injuries - as a Munster supporter I'm pretty glad that the IRFU were paying David Wallace's wage when he got injured playing for Ireland in the world cup warm-ups. Pity Felix wasn't on one as well.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

rodders wrote:Sin they also get paid based on what they are worth in terms of marketing. It's a business you know.

Bowe is one of the most well know and marketable Irish players hence the IRFU broke the bank to sign him.

The most marketable guys for the IRFU (and used by 02 for their recent rugby ads (02 are IRFU main sponsors) are BOD, POC & Sexton. http://www.joe.ie/rugby/rugby-news/ireland-rugby-stars-play-secret-game-in-clontarf-0013516-1

Anyway, isn't the system that they get paid extra if they are used (Woody won that battle as in his time they used to be used and they got nothing out of it).

Thats because they didn't have Bowe's image rights until now, the Ospreys did and why he was the highest paid player in Britain whilst at Ospreys and now the highest paid in Ireland.

The IRFU don't own anyone's image rights (and why you see BOD doing milk ads, BOD credit union ads and a load of the others doing various high energy drinks and bars).

BOD, Sexton & POC would have been paid for appearing in that ad for 02.

So if central contracts were unwound, how would you see the way forward?.

BOD and POC certainly to me look like players who are no longer truly outstanding players on the international field of play yet they have their ccs. Does that hold Declan in a hammer lock to play them?

The IRFU could just give each province additional money that can be used for wages and disributed out as the each province sees fit.

The IRFU contracts are about image rights and marketing for the IRFU and all they do is prolong the international careers of aging and out of sorts players and create an enviroment were certain players don't have to fight for their place, at least not to the degree they would in other countries.

Think you're ning harsh on POC he was playing superb up until his recent injury, that's his problem injury. He always seems to play well but is always struggling with injury.

DOC definitely shouldn't have a central contract

Feckless Rogue wrote:The New Zealand system is much better than the Irish one. The Irish one results in over the hill players on large central contracts. You wonder are they still getting picked for what they bring to the team or because of how much they cost?

Dear lord - nothing to do with the fact that NZ have a conveyor belt of young talent coming through and the willingness of NH (& Japan) clubs to throw bucket loads of money at these aging legends of the game.

Brad Thorn held onto his central contract for a long time, didn't he. Must be one of the oldest rugby players at the world cup.

Sin é wrote:

Rava wrote:

Thomond wrote:Sexton played 32 games last year I think. 16 for Leinster 16 for Ireland?

I think I heard someone say that, he palyed over 25 anyway.

Thom, you are correct.

Leinster 16 games (15 + 1)
Ireland 16 games (12 + 4)

His season started against Scotland on 6th August 2011 and finished against New Zealand on 23rd June 2012.
Heinke Van Der Merwe played 31 games - all for Leinster.

To be exact:

Sexton (central contract)
Leinster: 15+1 games. 1125 mins. Ireland 12+4 games. 967 mins. Total playing time = 2092 mins.

sean O'brien (provincial contract with Leinster)
Leinster: 14+1 games. 1007 mins. Ireland 13 games. 970 minutes. Total playing time = 1977 mins.

Heinke Van Der Merwe
Leinter: 18+13. Total minutes played = 1570 mins.

Ian Madigan (provincial contract with Leinster)
Leinster: 16+9. Total playing time = 1450 mins.

Nacewa (provincial contract with Leinster)
Leinster: 26+1. Total playing time = 2107.

Ha this completely throws out the argument that pro 12 teams have an advantage because our players are rested. What new excuse will the AP teams come up with now. Thanks for showing us this sin.

Sin é wrote:
The IRFU don't own anyone's image rights (and why you see BOD doing milk ads, BOD credit union ads and a load of the others doing various high energy drinks and bars).

BOD, Sexton & POC would have been paid for appearing in that ad for 02.

They are contractually obliged to appear, whereas Bowe isn't. If Bowe was to appear the Ospreys would be entitled to royalties for use of Bowe's image, hence you rarely see it.

The IRFU have rights to their players images and to use them in billboards and advertising.

Portnoy wrote:So if central contracts were unwound, how would you see the way forward?.

BOD and POC certainly to me look like players who are no longer truly outstanding players on the international field of play yet they have their ccs. Does that hold Declan in a hammer lock to play them?

They central contracted players are always in the squads.

Is Kidney forced to play them? Well if the IRFU (who also employ Kidney) are paying a player 200+ K a year to play for Ireland (and their province) would you imagine that they, and the IRFUs sponsors, expect to see that player play?

I'd imagine there is some freedom to leave players out and pick others but it would take the most naive person in the world to believe that there isn't a pressure there to select the contracted players.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The IRFU don't own anyone's image rights (and why you see BOD doing milk ads, BOD credit union ads and a load of the others doing various high energy drinks and bars).

BOD, Sexton & POC would have been paid for appearing in that ad for 02.

They are contractually obliged to appear, whereas Bowe isn't. If Bowe was to appear the Ospreys would be entitled to royalties for use of Bowe's image, hence you rarely see it.

The IRFU have rights to their players images and to use them in billboards and advertising.

I bet they are not contractually obliged to appear - thats slavery. Bowe obviously sold his image right to the Ospreys - thats an entirely different matter to what you are claiming.

If the IRFU owned the image rights to POC & BOD, they wouldn't be doing the Milk Ad or Credit Union (or ROG with the Lucosade).

rodders wrote:

Portnoy wrote:So if central contracts were unwound, how would you see the way forward?.

BOD and POC certainly to me look like players who are no longer truly outstanding players on the international field of play yet they have their ccs. Does that hold Declan in a hammer lock to play them?

They central contracted players are always in the squads.

Is Kidney forced to play them? Well if the IRFU (who also employ Kidney) are paying a player 200+ K a year to play for Ireland (and their province) would you imagine that they, and the IRFUs sponsors, expect to see that player play?

I'd imagine there is some freedom to leave players out and pick others but it would take the most naive person in the world to believe that there isn't a pressure there to select the contracted players.

Tomas O'Leary would have still been on a central contract for the last tour of NZ, unlike Owen Reddan or Marshall - he still didn't travel. How do you think they are going to solve the dilemma that POC, Ryan & DOC are on central contracts?

You seem to forget that the IRFU also pay Reddan & Marshall.

Slavery Sin é, is enforced unpaid work. Seems to me that you are gilding the lily just a tad.

Sin I think you have a different definition of slavery to me.

All players are contractually obliged to their employer to do promotional activities and sponsorship events as per required.

In the case of the central contracted players that employer is the IRFU, in the case of Bowe that was the Ospreys but is now the IRFU.

In other players cases that is their province.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Personally I don’t like the idea of the central contracts, as Rodders says it creates an group of untouchable players who are set up for 3 years and have a contract regardless of their form or what they’re providing to the national team.

The reason that Ireland has them is more to do with image rights than anything else because all Irish players are subject to the player management scheme, Reddan for example, can’t play more games for Leinster than Sexton just because he doesn’t have a central contract.

The central contracts are really a bonus to the provinces. Effectively, the IRFU say to Munster "I'm going to pay Paul O'Connell's wages for the next 2 years and I want you to play him in important games and not overuse him. The fact that I'm paying him means you better get an extra lock to cover games with the money you are saving."

Then you have the injuries - as a Munster supporter I'm pretty glad that the IRFU were paying David Wallace's wage when he got injured playing for Ireland in the world cup warm-ups. Pity Felix wasn't on one as well.

Obviously I’m not suggesting that the IRFU give up on central contracts and hold onto the money they’ve been paying to players, the provinces couldn’t bridge the difference in pay. I’m suggesting (as Rods has mentioned above) that the IRFU distribute the money they have been paying players among the provinces who then pay them.

DOC is on a central contract and Donnacha Ryan isn’t, are you happy that this effectively tells Munster to play DOC and POC for all big games?

Clearly you infer that’s what the central contracts system is all about;

"I'm going to pay Paul O'Connell's wages for the next 2 years and I want you to play him in important games and not overuse him. "

Ok, I see that Ryan has one. But my point is still valid, Darcy has one and McFadden doesn’t. I’m not happy that the IRFU are telling Leinster which player to use for big games.

Portnoy wrote:Slavery Sin é, is enforced unpaid work. Seems to me that you are gilding the lily just a tad.

Maybe gilding the lily a bit, but appearing in tv commercials or being interviewed etc. would not be every players cup of tea. Take John Hayes for instance, on a central contract for years with the IRFU, he'd be horrified if he had to do what POC did in that O2 advertisement.

rodders wrote:Sin I think you have a different definition of slavery to me.

All players are contractually obliged to their employer to do promotional activities and sponsorship events as per required.

In the case of the central contracted players that employer is the IRFU, in the case of Bowe that was the Ospreys but is now the IRFU.

In other players cases that is their province.

All players playing for the Irish provinces are contracted to the IRFU. If that wasn't the case Ulster would have 15 springboks contracted

Sin é wrote:Tomas O'Leary would have still been on a central contract for the last tour of NZ, unlike Owen Reddan or Marshall - he still didn't travel. How do you think they are going to solve the dilemma that POC, Ryan & DOC are on central contracts?

You seem to forget that the IRFU also pay Reddan & Marshall.

Actually Ulster pay Marshalls wages and the NZRFU paid for his expenses. The IRFU would have paid match expenses and appearance fees but then he didn't make any appearances did he.

It's cheaper to play 2 scrumhalves than 3, if they aren't on the payroll I suppose.

POC, DOC and Ryan are all in the Ireland match squad so where is the dilema?

Sin é wrote:All players playing for the Irish provinces are contracted to the IRFU.

No they aren't. The non central contracted players are contracted to their province. Indirectly they may benefit from IRFU revenue, via their province but they are not contracted to the IRFU.

Mickado wrote:

Sin é wrote:

The central contracts are really a bonus to the provinces. Effectively, the IRFU say to Munster "I'm going to pay Paul O'Connell's wages for the next 2 years and I want you to play him in important games and not overuse him. The fact that I'm paying him means you better get an extra lock to cover games with the money you are saving."

Then you have the injuries - as a Munster supporter I'm pretty glad that the IRFU were paying David Wallace's wage when he got injured playing for Ireland in the world cup warm-ups. Pity Felix wasn't on one as well.

Obviously I’m not suggesting that the IRFU give up on central contracts and hold onto the money they’ve been paying to players, the provinces couldn’t bridge the difference in pay. I’m suggesting (as Rods has mentioned above) that the IRFU distribute the money they have been paying players among the provinces who then pay them.

DOC is on a central contract and Donnacha Ryan isn’t, are you happy that this effectively tells Munster to play DOC and POC for all big games?

Clearly you infer that’s what the central contracts system is all about;

"I'm going to pay Paul O'Connell's wages for the next 2 years and I want you to play him in important games and not overuse him. "

Ok, I see that Ryan has one. But my point is still valid, Darcy has one and McFadden doesn’t. I’m not happy that the IRFU are telling Leinster which player to use for big games.

Any proof that Leinster are told to start D'Arcy ahead of McFadden?

By the way, D'Arcy didn't have a central contract for the last 2 seasons and has only just regained it in January (and it will be from next season).

What is a central contract if not a request from the IRFU to ensure that a player is played in big games in the position that the IRFU request. You've said it yourself, "i want you to play him in big games and not overuse him".

Forget the specifics of Ryan or Darcy or whomever, that's not good practise. The best player should play in the big games, not the one that the IRFU identified as a key international (up to) 3 years ago.

rodders wrote:

Actually Ulster pay Marshalls wages and the NZRFU paid for his expenses. The IRFU would have paid match expenses and appearance fees but then he didn't make any appearances did he.

It's cheaper to play 2 scrumhalves than 3, if they aren't on the payroll I suppose.

POC, DOC and Ryan are all in the Ireland match squad so where is the dilema?

Ulster may hand Marshall the cheque, but he is still employed by the IRFU (its the IRFU Ulster Branch). I may work and be paid by Microsoft Ireland, but I'm still an employee of Microsoft Inc.

You think Marshall got nothing for travelling to NZ (no wonder ROG is on a central contract ) I doubt if Mike Sherry wasn't financially compensated for his 2 trips to NZ with no gametime this season

With Ryan also being on Ireland duty, Munster now need to have cover for 3 locks (and hence the apparent stockpiling)!

I notice no one has responded to my comment about how the provinces might cope with players getting injured on international duty like Munster lost POC, Murray in the 6Ns, Flannery in the world cup and Wally & Felix Jones in the world cup warmups.

Sin é wrote:
Ulster may hand Marshall the cheque, but he is still employed by the IRFU (its the IRFU Ulster Branch). I may work and be paid by Microsoft Ireland, but I'm still an employee of Microsoft Inc.

You think Marshall got nothing for travelling to NZ (no wonder ROG is on a central contract ) I doubt if Mike Sherry wasn't financially compensated for his 2 trips to NZ with no gametime this season

Marshall is employed by Ulster rugby and his wages are paid by Ulster. Obviously he will get additional payments for his Ireland work but he is not directly employed by the IRFU.

If Marshall isn't selected for Ireland then the IRFU are not paying his wages which is not the case with the central contracted players.

This is incredibly simple stuff, I don't really know how you can't grasp this.

Mickado wrote:What is a central contract if not a request from the IRFU to ensure that a player is played in big games in the position that the IRFU request. You've said it yourself, "i want you to play him in big games and not overuse him".

Forget the specifics of Ryan or Darcy or whomever, that's not good practise. The best player should play in the big games, not the one that the IRFU identified as a key international (up to) 3 years ago.

The central contract means that the provinces can plan - they know who is going to be involved with Ireland so they can buy in extra cover. It probably makes very little difference to the players as POC knows what his worth is and its Munster who are going to have to come up with the cash to pay him his worth.

Sean O'Brien doesn't have a central contract (and I've heard it said he didn't want one).

I also see the value of it with regard to players who are getting on and are maybe covering or offering experience in training. They won't go to these camps or tour if they are not being compensated. Think back to David Humphreys who didn't want to just bench warm and preferred to stay at home with his family.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Ulster may hand Marshall the cheque, but he is still employed by the IRFU (its the IRFU Ulster Branch). I may work and be paid by Microsoft Ireland, but I'm still an employee of Microsoft Inc.

You think Marshall got nothing for travelling to NZ (no wonder ROG is on a central contract ) I doubt if Mike Sherry wasn't financially compensated for his 2 trips to NZ with no gametime this season

Marshall is employed by Ulster rugby and his wages are paid by Ulster. Obviously he will get additional payments for his Ireland work but he is not directly employed by the IRFU.

If Marshall isn't selected for Ireland then the IRFU are not paying his wages which is not the case with the central contracted players.

This is incredibly simple stuff, I don't really know how you can't grasp this.

He not only cites “the strong policy of retaining Irish players”, but that the IRFU are the only governing body which “directly pays part of the salary for non-Irish qualified players. In fact in one of the provinces, Ulster, more money was pumped in because they don’t have the same revenue streams as Munster and Leinster, and they used the money primarily to strengthen their squad by importing really good foreign players, and that’s been a success.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0128/1224310865799.html

Sin é wrote:

He not only cites “the strong policy of retaining Irish players”, but that the IRFU are the only governing body which “directly pays part of the salary for non-Irish qualified players. In fact in one of the provinces, Ulster, more money was pumped in because they don’t have the same revenue streams as Munster and Leinster, and they used the money primarily to strengthen their squad by importing really good foreign players, and that’s been a success.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0128/1224310865799.html

Here and I thought Marshall was Irish qualified.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:

He not only cites “the strong policy of retaining Irish players”, but that the IRFU are the only governing body which “directly pays part of the salary for non-Irish qualified players. In fact in one of the provinces, Ulster, more money was pumped in because they don’t have the same revenue streams as Munster and Leinster, and they used the money primarily to strengthen their squad by importing really good foreign players, and that’s been a success.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sport/2012/0128/1224310865799.html

Here and I thought Marshall was Irish qualified.

Its clear that Marshall is being discriminated against. The IRFU pays the foreigners but won't pay its own

I just don't understand how an IT quote about overseas players has anything to do with Paul Marshall?

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:What is a central contract if not a request from the IRFU to ensure that a player is played in big games in the position that the IRFU request. You've said it yourself, "i want you to play him in big games and not overuse him".

Forget the specifics of Ryan or Darcy or whomever, that's not good practise. The best player should play in the big games, not the one that the IRFU identified as a key international (up to) 3 years ago.

The central contract means that the provinces can plan - they know who is going to be involved with Ireland so they can buy in extra cover. It probably makes very little difference to the players as POC knows what his worth is and its Munster who are going to have to come up with the cash to pay him his worth.

Sean O'Brien doesn't have a central contract (and I've heard it said he didn't want one).

I also see the value of it with regard to players who are getting on and are maybe covering or offering experience in training. They won't go to these camps or tour if they are not being compensated. Think back to David Humphreys who didn't want to just bench warm and preferred to stay at home with his family.

Yes, we all know who is going to be involved, and it's going to be the same players regardless of form. Do you not see that as a problem? We might as well stitch their names into the jerseys if we can plan that far ahead.

rodders wrote:I just don't understand how an IT quote about overseas players has anything to do with Paul Marshall?

Its not an IT quote - its a quote from Paul McNaughton printed in the IT (former team manager of Leinster and Ireland).

Read the quote as "The IRFU [even] pays directly for NIQ players."

why in the name of god would the IRFU pay directly for NIQ players contracted in the provinces, and not have a similar arrangement for those who are IQ (surely you don't think the IRFU are incentivising the provinces to bring in more NIQ players ).

Pushing the inquisition a bit further:

Have IRFU ccs
a) once helped during the (disputed) 'golden' generation period. Or did they hinder Irish (both provincial and national) performance?
b) Central contracts should be awarded on an annual basis to all/only to younger (say u28) players/not at all.
c) other views...

Any thoughts?

Maybe you should just go and find a quote from McNaughton which actually supports your point rather than trying to twist one that contradicts it.

Mickado wrote:

Yes, we all know who is going to be involved, and it's going to be the same players regardless of form. Do you not see that as a problem? We might as well stitch their names into the jerseys if we can plan that far ahead.

You are just rating some players differently (without knowing what is going on in the background).

What are your views on D'Arcy now that you know he wasn't on a central contract and both Schmidt & Kidney kept picking him? Or that Denis Leamy was on a central contract, but Sean O'Brien who isn't was getting picked ahead of him.

Portnoy wrote:Pushing the inquisition a bit further:

Have IRFU ccs
a) once helped during the (disputed) 'golden' generation period. Or did they hinder Irish (both provincial and national) performance?
b) Central contracts should be awarded on an annual basis to all/only to younger (say u28) players/not at all.
c) other views...

Any thoughts?

I think they were perfect 8- 10 years ago when we could barely scrape 22 good players together and the team more or less picked itself.

As the older players have declined and the depth has grown in certain positions they've just created system which ringfences a core of high profile players and more or less guarantees their selection when fit.

The tax rebate in the south also means there isn't the same incentive for aging players to cash in overseas as in other countries.

Point B would be progress yes.

rodders wrote:Maybe you should just go and find a quote from McNaughton which actually supports your point rather than trying to twist one that contradicts it.

Sorry rods, someone has obviously filled your head with this notion that Ulster is some sort of independent republic - its not. Its a branch of the IRFU. The IRFU gives the Ulster branch (and other provinces as well) - 4/5m a year - of course the IRFU own Ulster !

Portnoy wrote:Pushing the inquisition a bit further:

Have IRFU ccs
a) once helped during the (disputed) 'golden' generation period. Or did they hinder Irish (both provincial and national) performance?
b) Central contracts should be awarded on an annual basis to all/only to younger (say u28) players/not at all.
c) other views...

Any thoughts?

My view is that when professionalism began (or a few years afterwards) the CCs were instrumental in bringing Irish players home, and keeping them there. This was a massive boost to the game, but we didn’t have much strength in depth so we had to pick the centrally contracted players anyway, because there wasn’t enough competition for places.

Now, we’re in a situation where we do have more than 20 players capable of playing at a level where international selection would be merited, but because we have 20 CCs, the player with the central contract represents the best return on investment for the IRFU.

The perfect balance, IMO, would be if the IRFU incentivize the provinces to play Irish players (not a particular Irish player, just a player who is eligible to play for the national team) by distributing all of the wages that they currently pay to CC’ed players out to the provinces. All IQ players would be subject to the same controls that are currently in place surrounding game management etc.

I don’t see the downside to this.

Which of these are not worth a central contract?
1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Mike Ross
4. DOC & Donncha Ryan
5. POC
6. Ferris
7.
8. Heaslip
9.
10. ROG & Sexton
11. Keith Earls
12. Gordon D'Arcy & Paddy Wallace
13. BOD
14. Tommy Bowe & Andrew Trimble
15. Kearney

Its hardly excessive!

7 Leinster, 5 Ulster, 5 Munster

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:

Yes, we all know who is going to be involved, and it's going to be the same players regardless of form. Do you not see that as a problem? We might as well stitch their names into the jerseys if we can plan that far ahead.

You are just rating some players differently (without knowing what is going on in the background).

What are your views on D'Arcy now that you know he wasn't on a central contract and both Schmidt & Kidney kept picking him? Or that Denis Leamy was on a central contract, but Sean O'Brien who isn't was getting picked ahead of him.

Sin é wrote:

Mickado wrote:Personally I don’t like the idea of the central contracts, as Rodders says it creates an group of untouchable players who are set up for 3 years and have a contract regardless of their form or what they’re providing to the national team.

The reason that Ireland has them is more to do with image rights than anything else because all Irish players are subject to the player management scheme, Reddan for example, can’t play more games for Leinster than Sexton just because he doesn’t have a central contract.

The central contracts are really a bonus to the provinces. Effectively, the IRFU say to Munster "I'm going to pay Paul O'Connell's wages for the next 2 years and I want you to play him in important games and not overuse him. The fact that I'm paying him means you better get an extra lock to cover games with the money you are saving."

Then you have the injuries - as a Munster supporter I'm pretty glad that the IRFU were paying David Wallace's wage when he got injured playing for Ireland in the world cup warm-ups. Pity Felix wasn't on one as well.

What are your views on completely contradicting yourself within the same page on 606?

Sin é wrote:Which of these are not worth a central contract?
1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Mike Ross
4. DOC & Donncha Ryan
5. POC
6. Ferris
7.
8. Heaslip
9.
10. ROG & Sexton
11. Keith Earls
12. Gordon D'Arcy & Paddy Wallace
13. BOD
14. Tommy Bowe & Andrew Trimble
15. Kearney

Its hardly excessive!

7 Leinster, 5 Ulster, 5 Munster

What would being "worth a central contract" mean? Being constantly picked for an agreed period of time regardless of form? None of them.

Sin é wrote:Which of these are not worth a central contract?
1. Cian Healy
2. Rory Best
3. Mike Ross
4. DOC & Donncha Ryan
5. POC
6. Ferris
7.
8. Heaslip
9.
10. ROG & Sexton
11. Keith Earls
12. Gordon D'Arcy & Paddy Wallace
13. BOD
14. Tommy Bowe & Andrew Trimble
15. Kearney

Its hardly excessive!

7 Leinster, 5 Ulster, 5 Munster

None of them.