Crossing the racial divide in the UK

Rugby (along with other major sports) remain doggedly, stubbornly, overwhelmingly white and caucasian on the terraces pretty much the major rugby nations. In the UK given the post-war influx of people predominantly from the 'new' (i.e. non-white) Commonwealth and and many families well into their third/fourth generations, their footfall representation on a visibly racial observation cannot be described as a seismic success.

On the field however it is different as racial and genetic influences there seems to be a clear advantage to afro-carribeans and polynesians in certain positions. But where are the subcontinental scrum and fly-halves?

I seriously doubt that there is an institutional racist recruitment issue. So it's must be cultural?

Look at Leicester's demographic stats: http://www.leicester.gov.uk/your-council-services/council-and-democracy/city-statistics/demographic-and-cultural/#Ethnic-Composition

You'd at least hope for maybe 5-10% of Indian asians in the crowd? Especially as the city is held up as a pretty-much harmonious multi-racial example.

I assume football is big in a lot of these countries and a lot of the people originaly from them still prefer that.

At my local club we do have a few players from out side the standard Europe + Big3. There a couple of Asian players who are very keen.

As a Quins fan I agree there is little to no support (at least at games) amongst the wider ethnic community but in time that will come. I think we are the only prem team to currently have a muslim player and I know he is trying to spread the word (I think it's Aston Croall but my minds gone blank)

If I had to hazard a guess I'd say it's that supporting sport is very much 'inherited' and as a result very much affected by culture. Growing up my friends supported football teams from all over the country, essentially whoever their Dad supported and they were brought up to support (even if they'd never been to see the club, or even the town/city they represented). Looking forward I live nowhere near Leicester now, but I will still be taking my girls to Welford Rd (when they are old enough) and bringing them up watching Tigers - it seems likely that if they support anyone they will be Tigers fans.

Most of my asian (sub-contintent) friends were brought up on cricket, and that's what they tend to go for. They just aren't that fussed about other sports, in the same way that I'm not that fussed about other sports outside rugby and cycling.

Big wrote:
Most of my asian (sub-contintent) friends were brought up on cricket, and that's what they tend to go for. They just aren't that fussed about other sports, in the same way that I'm not that fussed about other sports outside rugby and cycling.

You rarely see these Asian Brits representing the English cricket team though, which I've always thought is strange. Surely there's loads of untapped talent there. Do they tend to stay away from the traditional English cricket clubs or what?

It's not just rugby.

How often do you see black British football keepers playing at the highest level as an example?

How many high level British Asians are there in football?

I know it's a stereostype but black guys and gals are well known for being genetically faster.

They dominate the athletics world, particularly sprinting.

Look at the roles they normally play in football.

The black guys who have broken into England rugby have generally been wingers and full backs.

One player who breaks the mould in women's rugby is Maggie Alphonsi. She's one of the best players in women's rugby.

Also in the men's game there's Courtney Lawes.

Could the legendary Maro Itoje be yet another of the first black forwards to put on the famous red rose jersey in the men's game?

I'm surprised there aren't more black flankers to be honest. I can't actually think of a single English black flanker, in Wales we had Gavin Thomas, Charvis and Richard Parks.

beshoked, Kyle Sinclair could be a decent tighthead for England

Edit: Steffon Armitage, my bad

With regards to black English flankers - there is Armitage for one!

I suppose another reason there may be relatively few blacks and asians is that (at least in my day) there was more rugby played and supported in the villages and towns around the cities rather than in the cities themselves, and unless I'm much mistaken there are proportionally far fewer ethnic minorities of all groups living outside major cities. I assume that when the waves of immigrants first came they went to cities as that was where the work was, and there has perhaps been less time for the population to spread? Regardless of the reason it is a shame.

I imagine it can be quite intimidating to turn up to a club as the only Asian player etc. Not that there is any reason to be imtimidated but it's human nature.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

Big wrote:
Most of my asian (sub-contintent) friends were brought up on cricket, and that's what they tend to go for. They just aren't that fussed about other sports, in the same way that I'm not that fussed about other sports outside rugby and cycling.

You rarely see these Asian Brits representing the English cricket team though, which I've always thought is strange. Surely there's loads of untapped talent there. Do they tend to stay away from the traditional English cricket clubs or what?

Since 2000 - a sample: Usman Afzaal, Kabir Ali, Monty Panesar, Sajid Mahmood, Ravi Bopara, Amjad Khan etc. Not forgetting ex-captain Nasser Hussain.

The list does go on and some big names are missing.


but the main point is that somehow rugby and other main sports somehow have failed to span mainstream racial divides in sport- especially for the spectators

Still no non-white refs in either sport at a high level either.

Portnoy,

Where do most Tigers fans actually live though? Take a look at the stats for Harborough district ( a real Tigers heartland) 95% White British.
In England Rugby Union is a middle class country sport in participation and viewing, that does go some way to explaining the divide. And like most well established sports interest in it is passed on through family generations, if Mr Patels dad wasnt taking him to the game when he was a kid is he likely to take his kids? Theyve tries their best, offering Balti pies n that but the young Asian population of Leicester seems far more interested in driving up and down Mill Lane ruining the suspension in their dads BMW than attending rugby matches. Maybe that does make it a cultural thing, its perhaps hard to reach out to communities and interest them in having their testicles pulled inbetween bouts of being hit repeatedly by a large Pislander.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Maybe that does make it a cultural thing, its perhaps hard to reach out to communities and interest them in having their testicles pulled in between bouts of being hit repeatedly by a large Pislander.

You work in the advertising arm of the RFU?

Seriously, I think it takes time for recent-ish immigrants to become more enmeshed in the wider culture. Cricket is the number one sport with the South Asian community. It takes time to break stereotypes, both external and internal. Since I believe most of us are reasonably colourblind and also as Rugby folk are usually quite tolerant, it will simply take time. The South Asian communities are generally tight, so demonstrating our values is probably the best way to gain participation from that community. Eventually it should happen. But, in general, I do not think the current and especially the younger generation of Rugby folk have any significant racial problems.

Northern Ireland as part of the UK is quite divided on the sport too - on cultural/religious lines, rather than race ones.

Rugby is still rooted in the moneyed middle classes.

Not at highest level I know but at school, our squad had:

A second row from Gambia
A utility back and a flanker and several wingers from Hong Kong (one very handy, one a brickhouse)
A Partially Columbian scrum half
A half-Chinese scrum half
A ginger centre

And my Medschool has several players of African, Indian and Middleeastern origins

It's just that other ethnic groups have only recently had much exposure to the sport

munkian wrote:Still no non-white refs in either sport at a high level either.

Dave Rose is one of the RFU's top refs. I know that's only one guy but given the numbers of top refs and numbers of non-white people playing rugby in general it's probably about right.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Not at highest level I know but at school, our squad had:

A second row from Gambia
A utility back and a flanker and several wingers from Hong Kong (one very handy, one a brickhouse)
A Partially Columbian scrum half
A half-Chinese scrum half
A ginger centre

And my Medschool has several players of African, Indian and Middleeastern origins

It's just that other ethnic groups have only recently had much exposure to the sport

Ah now CJ, the rest are a great trend, but that's taking it much too far.

Isn't Tom Homer a 13 by trade?

When I was 15/16 my Mam asked our neighbour if their two sons would like to come up the club to play rugby. The father said that he didn’t have any problem with the game and enjoyed to watch it on the tele, but he didn’t want his sons to get involved in a sport with a drinking culture. I guess in Wales the game still has that stigma of the boys going to town after a game to get smashed.

Pot Hale wrote:Northern Ireland as part of the UK is quite divided on the sport too - on cultural/religious lines, rather than race ones.

Rugby is still rooted in the moneyed middle classes.

Yes. To my great pride, I think in the last few years Ulster Rugby has finally embraced the need to break down these barriers and become a team for all nine counties of Ulster and everyone in them... but it takes time. It takes a long time to broaden the base. It's slowly happening, but these things always happen like that- very slowly.

I feel the same thing will eventually happen in England surely? I'm just not familiar enough to say, but I hope so.

I think right across the UK and Ireland, the key is getting the game into more and more schools. Giving kids the chance to play it, to learn it, who wouldn't otherwise have had that chance. And some will fall in love with the game. Then things will slowly begin to change.

Maybe if the rugby team gets more success in the RWC and soon Olympics 7s and football team continues to under perform as for the last 26 years and people realise our players just aren't very good. Otherwise the love of football is too ingrained in British culture

Nah, CJ, the best realistic hope is for RU to establish itself as UK's second sport. To even dream of overtaking footy is fanciful at best and utterly deluded at worst.

But I guess that the best hope of attracting Asian supporters is to firstly develop some of their youngsters to Jeff/Rabo level. That's easily said but as social engineering in sport is not encouraged in this country compared with (say) post-apartheid SA, it can only be exceptionally difficult to achieve.

Portnoy, even social "engineering" takes time.

When you look at the demographics of SA, and you look at the sporting codes, rugby is mainly played by Whites and coloureds, Football in the main is played by blacks, Cricket is almost without exception Coloureds and whites, our female sporting codes in my view has been more succesfull in integrating Blacks, hockey and Netball is being represented more by blacks where traitionally they never really had any sport.

Rugby at schoolboy level does integrate a good number of blacks, especially the traditional rugby schools as the give bursaries to promising black students to develop as the quota system in Craven week demands a percantage of blacks in the squads and starting XV's.

So these rugby schools are keen to buy into the best potential talent shown. My old High school Florida Hoerskool is quite prominant in that.

But it will take many years before Black school embrace rugby.

I think The Bulls and the Lions can play a big role here, as well as the Springboks by playing more matches in soweto.

I think right across the UK and Ireland, the key is getting the game into more and more schools. Giving kids the chance to play it, to learn it, who wouldn't otherwise have had that chance. And some will fall in love with the game. Then things will slowly begin to change..

+1

biltongbek wrote:Portnoy, even social "engineering" takes time.

When you look at the demographics of SA, and you look at the sporting codes, rugby is mainly played by Whites and coloureds, Football in the main is played by blacks, Cricket is almost without exception Coloureds and whites, our female sporting codes in my view has been more succesfull in integrating Blacks, hockey and Netball is being represented more by blacks where traitionally they never really had any sport.

Rugby at schoolboy level does integrate a good number of blacks, especially the traditional rugby schools as the give bursaries to promising black students to develop as the quota system in Craven week demands a percantage of blacks in the squads and starting XV's.

So these rugby schools are keen to buy into the best potential talent shown. My old High school Florida Hoerskool is quite prominant in that.

But it will take many years before Black school embrace rugby.

I think The Bulls and the Lions can play a big role here, as well as the Springboks by playing more matches in soweto.

Forgive my ignorance Bil, but when you say "coloureds", what do you mean? It used to be that people over here would use the word coloured and black to mean the same thing.

Coloured/colored is an emotive word. For me, it paints visions of Deep South USA in the 60's. And SA, before they succumbed to reason. I think it means Asians now in SA. It used mean Black also.
Good mate here is a Saffer. He is an Indian/Black mix. I wouldn't call him coloured. He'd nut me. Then kiss me.

We are all coloured. Like fruit pastilles.

Gibson wrote:

We are all coloured. Like fruit pastilles.

Profound, true and witty all in one

Mickado wrote:

biltongbek wrote:Portnoy, even social "engineering" takes time.

When you look at the demographics of SA, and you look at the sporting codes, rugby is mainly played by Whites and coloureds, Football in the main is played by blacks, Cricket is almost without exception Coloureds and whites, our female sporting codes in my view has been more succesfull in integrating Blacks, hockey and Netball is being represented more by blacks where traitionally they never really had any sport.

Rugby at schoolboy level does integrate a good number of blacks, especially the traditional rugby schools as the give bursaries to promising black students to develop as the quota system in Craven week demands a percantage of blacks in the squads and starting XV's.

So these rugby schools are keen to buy into the best potential talent shown. My old High school Florida Hoerskool is quite prominant in that.

But it will take many years before Black school embrace rugby.

I think The Bulls and the Lions can play a big role here, as well as the Springboks by playing more matches in soweto.

Forgive my ignorance Bil, but when you say "coloureds", what do you mean? It used to be that people over here would use the word coloured and black to mean the same thing.

Mick, coloureds refer to mixed race in SA, whereby blacks are from the traditional black tribes such as Zulu, Xhoza etc.

The coloureds has very similar tradition to the Afrikaner, they speak mostly Afrikaans, love their rugby and cricket and have embraced many Afrikaner traditions.

Gibson wrote:Coloured is an emotive word. For me, it paints visions of Deep South USA in the 60's. And SA, before they succumbed to reason. I think it means Asians now in SA. It used mean Black also.
Good mate here is a Saffer. He is an Indian/Black mix. I wouldn't call him coloured. He'd nut me. Then kiss me.

We are all coloured. Like fruit pastilles.

Gibbo I used the various terms only to enlighten Portnoy on how sport works traditionally in SA, no intention to upset anyone.

Perhaps I shouldn't venture into topics like this.

Nah she's right Biltong.
Anyway is pasty white really a colour or is it an absence of colour?

biltongbek wrote:Gibbo I used the various terms only to enlighten Portnoy on how sport works traditionally in SA, no intention to upset anyone.
Perhaps I shouldn't venture into topics like this.

Biltongbek,
If we can't engage in dialogue or information sharing with sensitive points like these, then how will people learn about them? And then what's the point of a site like this?

I think many people don't know the specifics of the racial, legal, and historical divisions within SA, only the general background. I thought you laid it out clearly and objectively. In the US, the term coloured (colored) is a less than polite name for Blacks dating from at least 50 or so years ago. So the term carries differences depending where it is used.

Hmm, I am Coloured in SA. It is all in the U, if you leave the u out it becomes racist:)

I know there were some groups lobbying that they want to change our name, but I don't think they got anywhere. Most people are fine with Coloured.

I know there was an Afrikaner group wanting to classify us as "bruin Afrikaner" which means brown Afrikaner, and there was a coloured group that just wanted it to be brown. To me it is just semantics.

biltongbek wrote:

Gibson wrote:Coloured is an emotive word. For me, it paints visions of Deep South USA in the 60's. And SA, before they succumbed to reason. I think it means Asians now in SA. It used mean Black also.
Good mate here is a Saffer. He is an Indian/Black mix. I wouldn't call him coloured. He'd nut me. Then kiss me.

We are all coloured. Like fruit pastilles.

Gibbo I used the various terms only to enlighten Portnoy on how sport works traditionally in SA, no intention to upset anyone.

Perhaps I shouldn't venture into topics like this.

Bil,
I wasnt having a pop bud. And I know you are a cool dude.

It's just that when I hear or see that word, mentioned or written, it stirs something inside.

I grew up when all this craic was going on. The struggles for freedom in the USA and in SA. I lived - in a then, very racist, ignorant, Ireland. North & South. I suppose it scarred me/influenced how I feel, for life.

When I went to London in the 70's, I experienced it myself - badly. I was a white-black, if you will. Again, it was the 70's. The IRA were in their "pomp" and being Irish was not cool.

When I look back, I can understand it more now. Put it in its historical place. But it wasn't easy back then. I bit my tongue off at times and proved my worth. Educated some and demanded respect. So I guess, others and I, helped make the way for those who followed, to have it easier.

It took me a long time to resolve it. And not to feel that way about those who perpetrated it. They were just ignorant.

"It's only words" people say, but its the feeling and meaning behind them, that gets me. Whether intentional or not.

Now I use some of these words myself, in self-deprication, to dilute them. Its so much easier now. And yet, it still thrives and grows, under the radar of PC.

It's a big reason why I reared my kids in Nederland and mixed them with as many races as I could. In schools and in locaal. It worked. They dont see Race. They just see orseholes and decent people.

I never thought Id put that in print.

Peace, Love and Respect for all.

FerN wrote:Hmm, I am Coloured in SA. It is all in the U, if you leave the u out it becomes racist:)

I know there were some groups lobbying that they want to change our name, but I don't think they got anywhere. Most people are fine with Coloured.

I know there was an Afrikaner group wanting to classify us as "bruin Afrikaner" which means brown Afrikaner, and there was a coloured group that just wanted it to be brown. To me it is just semantics.

Good stuff FerN. Interesting on the "U". And Kudos to Biltong.

But you should never accept "classification", IMO. That's where Hitler kicked in.

Why not just South African? And who has the right to classify? Blanke boeren?

I also hate that term, African-American. Why dont they say of the Whites, "Theiving, Land-Grabbing, Ignorant, Genocidal, White, European-Americans? They are all fat, loud, obnoxious, Yanks to me.

Just my honest opinion.

I agree classification or terms of race should not be part of society, and like Gibbo I see pleasant people and buttwipes.

But it does make our history and traditions clearer to the uninformed as to which cultures love which sports.

I work with many different cultures and races in SA due to my work, and the only "identification" I use is who wants to make a positive contribution to themselves, their families and society and then those that don't want to.

FerN wrote:Hmm, I am Coloured in SA. It is all in the U, if you leave the u out it becomes racist:)

I know there were some groups lobbying that they want to change our name, but I don't think they got anywhere. Most people are fine with Coloured.

I know there was an Afrikaner group wanting to classify us as "bruin Afrikaner" which means brown Afrikaner, and there was a coloured group that just wanted it to be brown. To me it is just semantics.

So Fern, are you a Bulls supporter living in Pretoria?

Gibson wrote:

FerN wrote:Hmm, I am Coloured in SA. It is all in the U, if you leave the u out it becomes racist:)

I know there were some groups lobbying that they want to change our name, but I don't think they got anywhere. Most people are fine with Coloured.

I know there was an Afrikaner group wanting to classify us as "bruin Afrikaner" which means brown Afrikaner, and there was a coloured group that just wanted it to be brown. To me it is just semantics.

Good stuff FerN. Interesting on the "U". And Kudos to Biltong.

But you should never accept "classification". That's where Hitler kicked in.

Why not just South African? And who has the right to classify? Blanke boeren?

I also hate that term, African-American. Why dont they say "Theiving, Land-Grabbing, Ignorant, Genocidal, White European-American? They are all fat, loud, obnoxious, Yanks to me.

Just my honest opinion.

Actually every one in Africa is an Afrikaner it literally means African, but I think it is a loaded word and only one group of people wants to be associated with it, but it is just a regional word. And it is not about accepting classification (it might have been at the beginning), but that is how we as a cultural group identify ourselves. I should actually be insulted because people say I can't be allowed to identify as being Coloured, because that would mean that I have to accept classification. Anyway, I am not mixed-raced even though my cultural group came from mixed race origins. In South Africa we are a sub group of the black community. It is basically Xhosa,Coloured,Zulu etc, forms the black community. But then again, a lot of black and coloured people don't accept that. There are a lot of issues still in SA regarding this and we are still a long way of just being South African. A few people I know actually fills in the race box (I don't know why we still have this on forms) as other and then write in South African.

biltongbek wrote:

FerN wrote:Hmm, I am Coloured in SA. It is all in the U, if you leave the u out it becomes racist:)

I know there were some groups lobbying that they want to change our name, but I don't think they got anywhere. Most people are fine with Coloured.

I know there was an Afrikaner group wanting to classify us as "bruin Afrikaner" which means brown Afrikaner, and there was a coloured group that just wanted it to be brown. To me it is just semantics.

So Fern, are you a Bulls supporter living in Pretoria?

No, I am a Stormers supporter living in Pretoria. But after this weekend I don't want to be anymore

Did you watch Super Rugby last night on Kyknet with Kobus, Ashwin and Breyten?

The common theme was that Allistair Coetzee must now explain why the Stormers aren't scoring tries.

Fascinating conversation lads. Thanks.

So, is rugby being being used as a political weapon in SA, to right-wrongs? As in positive-discrimination?

What's the way forward in the NH, for non-white coaches, players and refs?

For me, a pro-active drive in schools is the answer. Has to start early.

Big clubs should also be seen to help.

Gibson wrote:Fascinating conversation lads. Thanks.

So, is rugby being being used as a political weapon in SA, to right-wrongs? As in positive-discrimination?

Well it has been used since 1997 I think after a tri-nations match that had no "players of colour". But I think it toned down a bit. Even PDiv's appointment was motivated by positive-discrimination, which in the end I think was more unfair on him. I mean he was clearly the distant second choice after Heyneke, and that is what made every one so critical of PDiv and the fact that he only coached at National age level (which he did well). But he is always going to be remembered negatively. Every now and then you hear transformation from the politicians and for the main sponsor, but I think on the team front it was not that influential, except maybe Chillyboy - who is playing very well at the moment and if he gets selected for the bok reserve now, I would have no qualms. But his image was also tainted by the transformation drive. I actually think if he wasn't pushed so much, he would actually have competed for the team much earlier as he got so injury prone at a stage - because he was competing at an intensity that he wasn't ready for then (my opinion).

The only thing you can really try to promote rugby in the other races in the UK is to advertise the game, and nurture the players when they are young. Trying to fast track something will just end up in breaking it.

FerN wrote:

Gibson wrote:Fascinating conversation lads. Thanks.

So, is rugby being being used as a political weapon in SA, to right-wrongs? As in positive-discrimination?

Well it has been used since 1997 I think after a tri-nations match that had no "players of colour". But I think it toned down a bit. Even PDiv's appointment was motivated by positive-discrimination, which in the end I think was more unfair on him. I mean he was clearly the distant second choice after Heyneke, and that is what made every one so critical of PDiv and the fact that he only coached at National age level (which he did well). But he is always going to be remembered negatively. Every now and then you hear transformation from the politicians and for the main sponsor, but I think on the team front it was not that influential, except maybe Chillyboy - who is playing very well at the moment and if he gets selected for the bok reserve now, I would have no qualms. But his image was also tainted by the transformation drive. I actually think if he wasn't pushed so much, he would actually have competed for the team much earlier as he got so injury prone at a stage - because he was competing at an intensity that he wasn't ready for then (my opinion).

The only thing you can really try to promote rugby in the other races in the UK is to advertise the game, and nurture the players when they are young. Trying to fast track something will just end up in breaking it.

Definitely. Causes more harm than good in the long-term. It should be a natural shift, over time. But that shift needs the will to enable it at grass-roots level.

I think I might have been harsh on Chillyboy, but he was reserve for the Bulls and reserve for the Boks. But the player he was reserve for wasn't looked at by the Bok management.

PDV's problems started with the way he was appointed. Who in his right mind goes on a public annoncement and says "he has been appointed not for rugby reasons only"

Seriously who does that?

I think the biggest problem many South african supporters at the time had was the fact that Allistair coetzee had more experience, and at the time were the assistant coach to Jake White, he knew everyone of those players better than PDV did.

The issue not only political though, it is also a case of SARU not doing any development in the coorrect manner. Earmark a coach (lets say Allistair as an example), put him through the paces and stpe him up from one level to the next, ensuring he learns as he goes along, Allistair in my view has the same illness as almost every South African coach bar maybe Rassie Erasmus and Naka Drotske, they are conservative.

If you lay out a vision and goal for Allistair and say to him, "mate you will be the next appointed coach if you can improve your skills to coach a team to play more attacking rugby within the strengths of our rugby."

Now if Allistair comes up as a candidate in four years time, he will not only have shown a CV filed with achievements and experience, but we will also know he can coach a team to be more fluent and attacking.

PDV had no chance, the player power was too much, Hoskins threw him under the bus from the start and he had Dick Muir who simply shouldn't come near a coaching position.

Thanks for the response yesterday Bil. I don’t think we should steer clear of sensitive subjects, just approach them with sensitivity, which you did. Fair play.

Gibson wrote:It's a big reason why I reared my kids in Nederland and mixed them with as many races as I could. In schools and in locaal. It worked. They dont see Race. They just see orseholes and decent people.

biltongbek wrote:I agree classification or terms of race should not be part of society, and like Gibbo I see pleasant people and buttwipes.

But it does make our history and traditions clearer to the uninformed as to which cultures love which sports.

I work with many different cultures and races in SA due to my work, and the only "identification" I use is who wants to make a positive contribution to themselves, their families and society and then those that don't want to.

The only two real ethnic groups in the world. I say the exact same thing to my lads and my Dad said the same to me. Makes it an easy way to live and also possible to discuss our other differences and histories.

In the US their racial issues had a different history than the rest of us and the impact is clearly seen today across the country. Every group in America has a label such as African-American, Irish-American, Italian-American. To some they are important. To others they are bad. Most seem not to care. But a lot of it makes the media.

Gibson, Living in the NY area, my kids do benefit from living in a very mixed society, as do yours living where you do. But, I don't see that common American stereotype you are referring to. I see a lot normal folks doing their thing, but with an incredible pace and energy. Jut a bit different in their own way.

Ah Doc, I was just joshing and mixing. Thats all. Text does not convey that. Some of my best mates are American. Every home should have one.

And I love the vast, stunning, country too. Some of the warmest & most welcoming people Ive ever met.

Dont like their Coca-Cola and McDonalds culture, polluting the rest of the Planet though. Same with language. Aaaahsum! Yo! High-5. Yay!

But Im just a grumpy aul Paddie-Cloggie.

Gibson wrote:Ah Doc, I was just joshing and mixing. Thats all. Text does not convey that. Some of my best mates are American. Every home should have one.

That's going to be the quote of the day! As the token foreigner from civilised lands in my office, I will use it freely today til they throw me out................

I like the line from Blazing Saddles

"We'll take the Niggers and the Chinks but we don't want the Irish"

Portnoy wrote:Rugby (along with other major sports) remain doggedly, stubbornly, overwhelmingly white and caucasian on the terraces pretty much the major rugby nations. In the UK given the post-war influx of people predominantly from the 'new' (i.e. non-white) Commonwealth and and many families well into their third/fourth generations, their footfall representation on a visibly racial observation cannot be described as a seismic success.

On the field however it is different as racial and genetic influences there seems to be a clear advantage to afro-carribeans and polynesians in certain positions. But where are the subcontinental scrum and fly-halves?

I seriously doubt that there is an institutional racist recruitment issue. So it's must be cultural?

Look at Leicester's demographic stats: http://www.leicester.gov.uk/your-council-services/council-and-democracy/city-statistics/demographic-and-cultural/#Ethnic-Composition

You'd at least hope for maybe 5-10% of Indian asians in the crowd? Especially as the city is held up as a pretty-much harmonious multi-racial example.

Maybe you are the racist?? You say Africans and Polynesians have "clear" advantages in "some" positions but you don't get that maybe Whites have "clear" advantages too.

Sure they do.

But seeing as Europeans and South Asians are ethnically extremely close, I don't get your point.

Surely what they can do in hockey and cricket, they can contribute to physically in certain RU positions