Crossing the racial divide in the UK

First topic message reminder :

Rugby (along with other major sports) remain doggedly, stubbornly, overwhelmingly white and caucasian on the terraces pretty much the major rugby nations. In the UK given the post-war influx of people predominantly from the 'new' (i.e. non-white) Commonwealth and and many families well into their third/fourth generations, their footfall representation on a visibly racial observation cannot be described as a seismic success.

On the field however it is different as racial and genetic influences there seems to be a clear advantage to afro-carribeans and polynesians in certain positions. But where are the subcontinental scrum and fly-halves?

I seriously doubt that there is an institutional racist recruitment issue. So it's must be cultural?

Look at Leicester's demographic stats: http://www.leicester.gov.uk/your-council-services/council-and-democracy/city-statistics/demographic-and-cultural/#Ethnic-Composition

You'd at least hope for maybe 5-10% of Indian asians in the crowd? Especially as the city is held up as a pretty-much harmonious multi-racial example.

Portnoy wrote:Sure they do.

But seeing as Europeans and South Asians are ethnically extremely close, I don't get your point.

Surely what they can do in hockey and cricket, they can contribute to physically in certain RU positions

There are differences between Southern and Northern Europeans so I wouldn't say Europeans are extremely close to South Asians. Its all about percentages so technically any race should be capable of producing rugby players especially in certain positions.

The answer to your question might be a simple one. Maybe Asians are not that interested in sports? Theres less women who play sport than men but it doesn't mean theres some sort of conspiracy. Rugby and soccer might not be part of certain cultures. In Ireland a large section of the population have no interest in rugby or soccer despite those sports getting plenty of air time.

Portnoy it is all to do with culture and tradition.

Traditionally in England rugby has been seen as a sport for white English public school boys. Over time this portrayal is slowly being changed, rugby is becoming more widely played in schools throughout the country and is more mainstream. Society has also developed and is more tolerant in general.

Just looking at the Saracens players selected for the England 18s tour 2 of the players are black, 1 is mixed and the other 2 are white.

The two black players are a prop and 2nd row which is not the traditional position black players normally excel in. These are more technical positions and probably comes from their backgrounds.

Though unsurprisingly both these players are public school boys - Haileybury and Harrow respectively.

http://www.saracens.com/news/view.php?Id=7108

Portnoy you mention a lack of non white halfbacks. When there are so many promising white halfbacks I think it's very tough to break the mould.

In comparison black people and also pacific islanders have the genetic advantage of being bigger and faster making them more naturally suited to roles in the centre and wing. They are probably more likely to be encouraged to fill these positions by those watching their progress.

A long time ago now, but Victor propped for England.
And Ojomoh - wasn't he a loose fwd ?
Otherwise, yes as already said, mostly 3/4 or FB.

Is it a problem that in the uk rugby is not taking off with certain ethnic backgrounds?
Why the need to push it? Surely when they are ready they will take part...

Besides just because here in britain its not happening doesnt mean its not around the world. The recent excitment about the Madagascar team for one shows many are playing.
African teams like Kenya playing 7's to a high standard...the Asian 5 nations has seen teams like Thailand and Malaysia playing....

We in Britain have had many representatives - particularly from the likes of Nigeria.
Andy Harriman, Victor Obogu, Steve Ojomo, Paul Hull, Chris Otti, Topsy Ojo, Gerry Guscott, The Underwoods...etc etc
Youngsters like Cristian Wade, Jonathan Joseph coming through...amongst others

Let it grow naturally...dont force it...

Strangely few posts here have referred to what is the main point of the OP: engagement of the spectators.

Ooh. Well that's cultural differences again. You are likely to watch the sports etc that your parents do, watch sports you have played, and sports that you have exposure at a young age to and thus understand better.

Portnoy wrote:Strangely few posts here have referred to what is the main point of the OP: engagement of the spectators.

Very interesting thread - In Wales a lot of the regions are shockingly mono-cultural and there's little suprise somewhere like Llanelli has a mainly caucasian crowd/players (it shocked me when I went to uni as I'd never considered it until I was lucky to mix with people from all around the world and different backgrounds and I realised how different my part of the world was).

There does seem to be participation by players of different cultures, such as Brew, Gavin Thomas, Armitage, Lawes to name a few - but as you say there seems to be a culture that the media plays upon where if you come from an inner city you should support football, if it's rural then it's rugby, and also if you're black or asian then why would you be into rugby? it's football you should be into.

It's such a shame, but I feel things are changing slowly (though could well slide back with the Tory cutbacks in education and employment meaning many of the poorer areas will be filled with another generation who didn't get education chances and are filled with anger because of no opportunities).

Smirnoff do you think that it is their culture or our culture that is a barrier.

For example if there is an child born in Wales with Indian parents. Would they be pushing him to try rugby and soccer and cricket etc or would cricket get a more faovurable treatment.

As you say its an interesting one.

red_stag wrote:Smirnoff do you think that it is their culture or our culture that is a barrier.

For example if there is an child born in Wales with Indian parents. Would they be pushing him to try rugby and soccer and cricket etc or would cricket get a more faovurable treatment.

As you say its an interesting one.

I was thinking more of a British black person to be honest. Though in your (and my) example I reckon it's a mixture of both where both may encourage an interest in football/cricket than rugby/snooker (it's amazing how monocultural snooker is).

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

red_stag wrote:Smirnoff do you think that it is their culture or our culture that is a barrier.

For example if there is an child born in Wales with Indian parents. Would they be pushing him to try rugby and soccer and cricket etc or would cricket get a more faovurable treatment.

As you say its an interesting one.

I was thinking more of a British black person to be honest. Though in your (and my) example I reckon it's a mixture of both where both may encourage an interest in football/cricket than rugby/snooker (it's amazing how monocultural snooker is).

It's huge in Asia though (both in terms of participation and spectating). I wouldn't be surprised if, in a few years, we see many of the top players coming from China etc. This obviously impacts on Asian families who move to and set up home in the UK in terms of what the kids are taught to play. There's only one black professional snooker player (Rory McLeod).

Smirnoff
I think you're probably right in your comment that kids from sub-continental backgrounds tend towards cricket (because it is THE sport in India / Pakistan) and football (because it is THE sport in Britain and much of the rest of the world).

I grew up in a part of Yorkshire with a high Anglo-Pakistani population, and went to University in Leicester. Can't say in either place I ever saw an Anglo-Asian lad with a rugby ball in his hand. Cricket bat or ball definitely (indeed my junior team regularly fielded between 6 and 8 players with Pakistani backgrounds) and football (just because everyone plays). Rugby just isn't part of the culture in those communities, and that's not something that can be changed overnight regardless of the best intentions of the RFU.

If Leicester, with their success and the diversity of the city, can't get more than a handful of Asian supporters, there's little hope for anyone else.

If Leicester, with their success and the diversity of the city, can't get more than a handful of Asian supporters, there's little hope for anyone else..

Is this a problem though? The door is very much open to everyone regardless of skin colour, culture etc etc. If in Britain...it is passed over, for say cricket or football, or even local ethnic sports such as Kabadi, Martial Arts etc etc...british rugby should not view this as an actual problem.

For Rugby IS flourishing in many other parts of the world including most of Africa and Asia. Maybe in future years if the ancestral homes start performing strongly in the game it may drive a rise in foreign cultures playing the game in Britain.

Goerdie,
If I may rephrase your question a bit? Instead of asking if there is a problem, I would ask do WE as members of the Rugby communicty have a problem which excludes others? To me the answer is no.

Also, is it a problem they are not generally interested in Rugby? That depends on how we want to grow the sport. Certainly, the newer immigrant families are fertile recruiting ground for both players and spectators. And having the playing base and spectators base reflecting the demographic of the country is a good thing for the nation. But, these things cannot be forced. I would ensure the opportunities are clearly available and perhaps some additional efforts at advertising within some of the newer communities. Without question demonstrating the openness of the Rugby culture. But, beyond that, there is little which can be done.

I would guess it is difficult to cross a cultural divide which people bring with them from their homelands, or their parents or grandparents brought with them. If families bring up their kids as Cricket fans, then the kids will gravitate towards Cricket. It takes energy and planning to get these kids to put their toes in the Rugby water. But once they do - we've got them.

Doctor,

You are absolutely correct when you say are they simply not interested in rugby.

I genuinely feel sometimes there is too much of a push to include everyone on racial grounds to be dare i say it politically correct...but sometimes there just isnt any interest for there to be any mixing.

If Asians or Blackor yellow or green or blue or ginger people want to play rugby they can...if they dont they wont...its simple.
I mean blimey up here in Newcastle most white people arent interested in rugby because football dominates....

Geordie,
I agree. Sometimes interest cannot be forced. And in those cases, we remain as open as ever, but we go on about our business. No need to rush some things. Seems like common sense to me.........

GeordieFalcon wrote:Doctor,

You are absolutely correct when you say are they simply not interested in rugby.

I genuinely feel sometimes there is too much of a push to include everyone on racial grounds to be dare i say it politically correct...but sometimes there just isnt any interest for there to be any mixing.

If Asians or Blackor yellow or green or blue or ginger people want to play rugby they can...if they dont they wont...its simple.
I mean blimey up here in Newcastle most white people arent interested in rugby because football dominates....

I'm afraid that is a very simplistic attitude to integration. There can be many barriers to integration (and by that I mean fully participating in all aspects of society). The first asian/black/gay etc person to try to break into a sport/team/workplace etc is invariably going to find it tough going. That is not to say people would deliberately exclude or discourage them but many seemingly innocuous things may make it difficult. For example when my kids started school in NZ we were told "there are no facilities for heating home lunches' no big deal you may think but my wife and kids had only ever had hot lunches. A sandwich etc is not considered an appropriate lunch in China. Kids go home and eat lunch and then go back to school. So my kids and wife suck it up and take a thermos or eat cold lunches. No big deal most people would say. Learn to be like a kiwi. But the point is little things like that can make life a little bit tougher for some people. Being a minority can be tough.

This is not a bleat about how tough life is. It is just to try to encourage you to ask the deeper question of what barriers are in place that may discourage a person or group of people from playing the truely beautiful game.

Ngan,
Im not taking racism lightly by anymeans, and I accept there will always be barriers. I was merely stating that sometimes it can be pushed too much the other way. As I pointed out many ethnicities have played for England and will no doubt in the future.

My parents were born in India, but both moved here in their early teens. I was born and bred in the garden of England, and follow as many sports as I possibly can.

I took a serious interest in rugby after watching WC2003, and ended up playing flanker for my school between the ages of 13 and 16. I eventually lost touch with playing, due to starting at college etc, but its never stopped me from watching international and Heineken rugby, and the occasional premiership game.

I have been to Twickenham twice, but never to a Premiership team's stadium, mainly because there aren't any very close to where I live in Kent.

I definitely don't think my ethnicity ever stopped me from being a rugby fan, and I would hope that no one else ever feels that way either

bambamwillis wrote:My parents were born in India, but both moved here in their early teens. I was born and bred in the garden of England, and follow as many sports as I possibly can.

I took a serious interest in rugby after watching WC2003, and ended up playing flanker for my school between the ages of 13 and 16. I eventually lost touch with playing, due to starting at college etc, but its never stopped me from watching international and Heineken rugby, and the occasional premiership game.

I have been to Twickenham twice, but never to a Premiership team's stadium, mainly because there aren't any very close to where I live in Kent.

I definitely don't think my ethnicity ever stopped me from being a rugby fan, and I would hope that no one else ever feels that way either

Good to know you got into it and never found any barriers to playing/supporting rugby.

By the way, where is the 'garden of England'? Does that mean the West country or somewhere else specific?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

bambamwillis wrote:My parents were born in India, but both moved here in their early teens. I was born and bred in the garden of England, and follow as many sports as I possibly can.

I took a serious interest in rugby after watching WC2003, and ended up playing flanker for my school between the ages of 13 and 16. I eventually lost touch with playing, due to starting at college etc, but its never stopped me from watching international and Heineken rugby, and the occasional premiership game.

I have been to Twickenham twice, but never to a Premiership team's stadium, mainly because there aren't any very close to where I live in Kent.

I definitely don't think my ethnicity ever stopped me from being a rugby fan, and I would hope that no one else ever feels that way either

Good to know you got into it and never found any barriers to playing/supporting rugby.

By the way, where is the 'garden of England'? Does that mean the West country or somewhere else specific?

Garden of England = Kent, I was born in North West Kent to be specific

ahh I see, never been to Kent but sounds quite nice

Kent is great. Only thing missing is some top notch Rugby

Ah, the Kent Countryside. Almost lead to the end of Trevor Macdonald's career.

I think we will see a lot more Indians playing rugby in the near future. I was watching trans world sport a few months back and it had a piece about Indian rugby on it, it was very interesting how popular it is getting over there. They have a league structure in place and with the population they have it could start picking up speed. Also, just to add to the topic of this debate, I was in Port Elizabeth a few years ago visiting a factory that supplied us, and there was an argument between two black people, or so I thought, when I asked what it was about I was told that the blacks and the coloureds did not really see eye to eye in their factory, when I asked what a coloured was and then was told I was a little flabbergasted, as I would never have known unless I was told, so, to put my tuppence in, does it matter ? No. If a white, black, coloured, ginger, yellow want to play what ever sport they want it is up to them, and I am sure that the bigger the game of rugby gets the more Asians and Africans and any other races on our small world will increase in rugby union as well.

We have to draw the line somewhere. NO Gingers.

Gibson wrote:We have to draw the line somewhere. NO Gingers.

No even Nugget?

How about we just say no heamaphrodites and call it quits?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

Gibson wrote:We have to draw the line somewhere. NO Gingers.

No even Nugget?

How about we just say no heamaphrodites and call it quits?

That's a bit unfair on Cipriani though Priest. Ok, its a deal.

Good lord. What an interesting post, Portnoy.

I have to say in all honesty that I've never considered the issue of race in rugby at all. I grew up watching a mix of Polynesians, South Americans, Anglo-Saxons and various Black African players and thought that it was a nicely inclusive sport and that's just the way it was.

Never thought about the watching demographic as being significant in any way - only that when comparing standing on the terraces (as they then were) at Hampden, Celtic Park, Ibrox, Murrayfield, Landsdowne and Millbrae, I did notice that rugby fans are by far the better people and by far the more interested in the sport that they were watching.

Nobody attended a rugby match with the sole objective of throwing stones at other fans or the players' buses.

I am amazed no one has mentioned the one massive factor of alcohol. Rugby is especially alcohol lead in terms of playing and to an extent in terms of supporting. Whilst I do not think it is the only reason by any stretch I would hazard a guess that many potential muslim rugby players/fans may be put off by the alcohol aspect. I realise it is still a presence in football, but I don't think you get many British muslim football players either. Supporting British football is done in many different countries, especially the sub continent, so the alcohol factor is lessened.

If you join a local rugby club the drinking culture is huge, and I think that would put off many people from cultures where drinking heavily is more frowned upon/outlawed.

Edit: In terms of black rugby players, I think there are actually quite a lot - the % of the population that are black is quite low so it's not like there would be 50-50 anyway.

Sorry if I have unintentionally used any offensive terms, please let me know what I should replace them with if they are offensive and I will do so.

bambamwillis wrote:My parents were born in India, but both moved here in their early teens. I was born and bred in the garden of England, and follow as many sports as I possibly can.

I took a serious interest in rugby after watching WC2003, and ended up playing flanker for my school between the ages of 13 and 16. I eventually lost touch with playing, due to starting at college etc, but its never stopped me from watching international and Heineken rugby, and the occasional premiership game.

I have been to Twickenham twice, but never to a Premiership team's stadium, mainly because there aren't any very close to where I live in Kent.

I definitely don't think my ethnicity ever stopped me from being a rugby fan, and I would hope that no one else ever feels that way either

Quite honestly I think that your post is the most relevant one to the entire debate as you are the best person to try and explain more fully why third/fourth-generation 'New Commonwealth' British don't present themselves pro-rata on the terraces.

Screaming,
That's a very good point. And true. But I think the heavy drinking culture amongst the pro players is slowly dying. Quite a few players now realise, that to extend their careers and to be at the very top of their game - overuse of alcohol is a no-no. At least it must be taken in moderation.

In the amateur and lower leagues, it still thrives and the post-game pishup is instilled in rugby culture. But it does not have the same violent connotations as it does in soccer. Its not the beer that causes problems, its certain people who drink it.

But, I don't see that as a problem for non-drinkers in rugby. That will change over time, as people become more aware. Look at how smoking has been turned from cool to fool over the last 20 years.

My guess is that drinking will go the same way. Or at least the game itself, will learn to accept and respect, that a lot of players and fans don't drink. They can still join in the post game craic.

I have muslim friends who don't ever drink (they'd rather have a spliff and an orange-juice tbh). And they are getting mad into rugby through me - all Leinster fans now ;-). One now has his son out playing for a local Dutch club. His peers are out watching him and want to join in. Others bring their sons and daughters to watch local games now. And on the TV (HC, 6-N. RWC). Mothers see it as a purer form of sport - from a player and fan prospective. They love the rugby ethos and are turning away from supporting the cess-pit that is pro soccer. Its changing. And I love it.

I think rugby should ally itself more with cricket. Then the cross-over in Asian countries could be bridged easier. All the clubs over here, tend to include cricket, hockey and rugby. It makes for better and more rounded sportsmen and women.

Spread the Word.

Gibson wrote:Screaming,
That's a very good point. And true. But I think the heavy drinking culture amongst the pro players is slowly dying. Quite a few players now realise, that to extend their careers and to be at the very top of their game - overuse of alcohol is a no-no. At least it must be taken in moderation.

In the amateur and lower leagues, it still thrives and the post-game pishup is instilled in rugby culture. But it does not have the same violent connotations as it does in soccer. Its not the beer that causes problems, its certain people who drink it.

But, I don't see that as a problem for non-drinkers in rugby. That will change over time, as people become more aware. Look at how smoking has been turned from cool to fool over the last 20 years.

My guess is that drinking will go the same way. Or at least the game itself, will learn to accept and respect, that a lot of players and fans don't drink. They can still join in the post game craic.

I have muslim friends who don't ever drink (they'd rather have a spliff and an orange-juice tbh). And they are getting mad into rugby through me - all Leinster fans now ;-). One now has his son out playing for a local Dutch club. His peers are out watching him and want to join in. Others bring their sons and daughters to watch local games now. And on the TV (HC, 6-N. RWC). Mothers see it as a purer form of sport - from a player and fan prospective. They love the rugby ethos and are turning away from supporting the cess-pit that is pro soccer. Its changing. And I love it.

I think rugby should ally itself more with cricket. Then the cross-over in Asian countries could be bridged easier. All the clubs over here, tend to include cricket, hockey and rugby. It makes for better and more rounded sportsmen and women.

Spread the Word.

Maybe you've hit on a good point there Gibbo
A beer or two for quicky sports like footy, rugby, hockey, 20/Twenty, GAAs etc.
A spliff for all-day sports like proper cricket.
Mogadon for golf...

Portnoy wrote:

bambamwillis wrote:My parents were born in India, but both moved here in their early teens. I was born and bred in the garden of England, and follow as many sports as I possibly can.

I took a serious interest in rugby after watching WC2003, and ended up playing flanker for my school between the ages of 13 and 16. I eventually lost touch with playing, due to starting at college etc, but its never stopped me from watching international and Heineken rugby, and the occasional premiership game.

I have been to Twickenham twice, but never to a Premiership team's stadium, mainly because there aren't any very close to where I live in Kent.

I definitely don't think my ethnicity ever stopped me from being a rugby fan, and I would hope that no one else ever feels that way either

Quite honestly I think that your post is the most relevant one to the entire debate as you are the best person to try and explain more fully why third/fourth-generation 'New Commonwealth' British don't present themselves pro-rata on the terraces.

I guess the main reason is that they simply don't follow the game. Most of my Asian friends have no interest in rugby, and would much rather watch football. I personally would attend more rugby games, if there was a Premiership team in my area. At the moment I have no particular affiliation to any club rugby side, and watch the games on Sky as a neutral, and always support the English sides in the Heineken Cup.

I think once Asians do begin to play the game more, attendance at games etc will also rise. I also don't think the point about alcohol will have a huge effect, a lot of Asians drink like fish!