Fruitless Pre Season Structure for Munster

by red_stag Tue 14 Aug 2012, 7:04 pm

I do not believe that I am alone amongst Munster fans in wondering what the flip they are playing at with their preseason setup.

Firstly we took on La Rochelle. We brought a panel of 32 players and had a special agreement with La Rochelle that all of them could get game time over the 80 minutes with the game played in quarters.

Munster stuck to their word and played the entire panel making 17 subs over the match which completely killed any chance to prepare for a real match situation.

We now take on London Irish in what will be a good fixture but we play a second tier team in Bristol. What will that achieve (all respect to Bristol) but we need to be testing ourselves against our peers.

A good preseason (not necessarily wins but playing tough opposition and challenging yourself) sets the tone for the year ahead. I was a big fan when Munster used to travel to the states and take on the USA in a Test Series but that was before the economic downturn.

Even still I think that a recession is no excuse and neither is having a new coaching team.

Aside from exposing as many players as possible to "French rugby" the La Rochelle encounter told us nothing. I am not even that annoyed at the result.

But more at what seems to be a poor preparation for the daunting season ahead.

by Portnoy Tue 14 Aug 2012, 8:14 pm

I can only sympathise Staggy. You'd expect the opposition to pitch up with a squad capable of providing a decent test. As you say it is the frustration with the pointlessness rather than the result.

Maybe Munster should play Munster A.

by Rava Tue 14 Aug 2012, 9:15 pm

Staggy, I wouldn't read too much into the French trip. Most of the teams like to get the guys on to the pitch for some game time.

There will be a great deal more structure to the next two games and obviously London Irish will be a bigger test than Bristol but competitive games don't necessarily need to be tough to be challenging. Trust your new coaching team.

Portnoy! Leicester are going down in Belfast again this weekend Very Happy

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 15 Aug 2012, 9:03 am

La Rochelle was Penny's first game in charge so I assume it was letting everyone know that he is casting his eye over the lot of them, and letting them know that if they step up they will get played.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 15 Aug 2012, 9:13 am

Leicester are going down in Belfast again this weekend

We tend to win the friendly games against the Irish provinces, it's the HEC games against them we seem to lose Sad

. Well away from home anyway.

by Duigers Wed 15 Aug 2012, 9:17 am

Portnoy wrote:I can only sympathise Staggy. You'd expect the opposition to pitch up with a squad capable of providing a decent test. As you say it is the frustration with the pointlessness rather than the result.

Maybe Munster should play Munster A.

For sympathize read "rub my hands"...

by Sin é Wed 15 Aug 2012, 9:32 am

Stag - 2/10 for effort Very Happy

Penney expects players to learn quickly

By Simon Lewis

Wednesday, August 15, 2012

You quickly get the impression from listening to Rob Penney that his new charges at Munster had better learn from their mistakes and be quick about it.

The New Zealander has not been holding the reins for a month yet but his assessment yesterday of the province’s young guns in the opening pre-season friendly defeat at La Rochelle on Friday night will leave them under no illusions that the former Canterbury boss has not travelled from one end of the world to the other just to be a babysitter.

Penney wants Munster playing his way, an expansive brand of intuitive, total rugby where forwards are as adept and mobile as backs, who likewise have to front up with the toughness of their mates in the pack.

He accepts there may be setbacks along the way but he does not expect the same errors twice from players he believes are more than capable of executing his game plan.

So the first challenge for Friday’s home friendly against English Championship side Bristol at Musgrave Park, is to eradicate the 22 unforced errors committed against La Rochelle and tighten up a defence that allowed the home side 13 line breaks.

"The style that we were trying to implement is one in which everyone’s got to be able to play, everyone’s got to be able to analyse what’s in front of them and interact off each other and play what they see and expose opportunities when the opposition provides them," Penney said yesterday after training in Cork.

"I’d say we were probably 60% of the way there [against La Rochelle]. In our review, the opportunities that were created were numerous and our inefficiency to compete was on the back of probably a little lack of understanding and some decision-making that, given those set of circumstances again, they’d probably do something different.

"So, the positives were that we were creating opportunities. The downsides were that our error rate, 22 unforced errors. That’s not about having guys that aren’t capable of playing the way we want to play or not having the skills or ability to do it. It was on the back of poor decisions and putting themselves under pressure that manifested itself in a poor outcome.

"There were some real positives. I thought our lineout was first class. And in the [things to] work on area, a big focus on our contact work, particularly our inside-channel defence, on our height through all the contact areas, our scrummage and I suppose on some of the traditional values of Munster, of just being a bit tough sometimes. We were a bit fragile.

"Some of those things are indicative of first-round or early-season games in 35 degrees in a balmy seaside town in France but after the review and the discussions that we’ve had, I don’t think they will be an issue heading into this game."

Telling, that last sentence. Yet Penney is a coach satisfied his message his hitting home.

"It’s been great. The players’ attitude has been first rate and the desire to please and try to achieve something within the structures that have been provided has been [too].

"As I said, some the decision-making and some of the skill accuracy is where the fundamental issues lie and that’s just about guys making good decisions and getting used to seeing a different picture in front of them and having the flexibility and the confidence and ultimately the self-belief to carry out the decisions based on what they’re seeing instead of being, I suppose, rote-taught in some way."

It is up to Penney’s players, then, regardless of their status, not to have their hands held but to work it out for themselves. And be quick about it.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/penney-expects-players-to-learn-quickly-204178.html

by Rava Wed 15 Aug 2012, 9:36 am

Sin é wrote:Stag - 2/10 for effort

Penney expects players to learn quickly

By Simon Lewis

Wednesday, August 15, 2012

Penney wants Munster playing his way, an expansive brand of intuitive, total rugby where forwards are as adept and mobile as backs, who likewise have to front up with the toughness of their mates in the pack.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/rugby/penney-expects-players-to-learn-quickly-204178.html

That's a big ask in a short space of time.

by Feckless Rogue Wed 15 Aug 2012, 9:47 am

I wouldn't be worried. Pre-season results or even performances are not that important if the coach ticks the boxes he wants to tick and starts to get his message across.

I actually think Munster might start the season badly though. He wants to play an expansive brand of intuitive, total rugby? Well that doesn't happen overnight. It'll take time.

Remember Joe Schmidt's poor start with Leinster? I wrote an article at the time questioning our new coach and pining for Cheika. But it just takes time for things to click under the new guy. I reckon he'll be very good for Munster in the long run, but will have a rocky start.

by Portnoy Wed 15 Aug 2012, 9:52 am

Rava.

Portnoy! Leicester are going down in Belfast again this weekend

Rava,
Best get the 'Jerusalem' rehearsals going, mate!

... Now that it's yours Wink

by red_stag Wed 15 Aug 2012, 9:56 am

Im not questioning Penney. I would imagine that the preseason structure was decided before his appointment.

I have two main issues:

1 - That we are taking on Bristol, a second division team. I would rather test ourselves against our peers.

2 - That against La Rochelle most guys on average got about a half hour of rugby and we constantly changed our players. This meant that we could not practice patterns and combinations adequately.

I sincerely hope we dont take this approach against London Irish.

I do think its possible for Munster to develop a Total Rugby attitude. We have a lot of agile forwards with good ball skills and equally we have some very physical and tough backs. However neither Paul O'Connell nor Ronan O'Gara will fit in with that system though from what I can see which will make it difficult to be an instant success.

by Sin é Wed 15 Aug 2012, 10:42 am

Stag, I'd imagine the trip to France was more about a bonding session in the squad - lots of new people have come in (from other clubs & academy) than actually getting all patterns right.

I think if people are expecting Penney to change the way the team plays in a couple of games like Schmidt did, they are in cloud cuckoo land. Schmidt had hardly any changes in personnel to what was a Heineken Cup winning team - he had to find something that he wanted to improve on (and he said he wanted them to be the best passing team around and he got them to concentrate on that).

Stag, I don't see why either ROG or O'Connell will not fit into his way of thinking - they have a huge start on anyone else in that they are well able to play intuitively and ROG would certainly have the brains to know what is on.

Furthermore, I can't see Paul O'Connell not rising to the challenge of being the best offloader/passer in the world if he puts his mind to it!

edit: about Bristol - what is the point of taking on your peers when trying to develop a new style of play and getting destroyed doing it. Players would lose all confidence in their ability to master the new style.

by **rodders** Wed 15 Aug 2012, 11:40 am

You can't teach an old dog new tricks Sin.... Whistle

.....

by Sin é Wed 15 Aug 2012, 11:50 am

rodders wrote:You can't teach an old dog new tricks Sin.... .....

I'd be more worried about the young dogs not being up to the new tricks Run

before staggy gets me!

by Rava Wed 15 Aug 2012, 12:09 pm

It would be the young dogs I would be concentrating on and not wasting time on the dinosaurs Whistle

by Sin é Wed 15 Aug 2012, 12:28 pm

Rava wrote:It would be the young dogs I would be concentrating on and not wasting time on the dinosaurs

Looks like Penney is sticking with the dinoasurs thumbsup

"It just depends on how he [POC] is over the next 10 days or so, but it's highly unlikely that he'll be available for the first round," said Penney. "We want to be able to unleash him when he's 100pc. He's at the stage in his career that he needs consistent rugby and when he gets that, he's one of the best locks in the world."

by Feckless Rogue Wed 15 Aug 2012, 12:33 pm

POC was brilliant last year when fit. Like a lot of locks he's playing some of his best rugby in his early 30's.

Mobility and passing aren't his strengths. But surely what he brings are huge assets to any team no matter what their style. His lineout skills and his inspirational leadership are still essential to Munster and Ireland.

ROG is past it though.

by red_stag Wed 15 Aug 2012, 12:54 pm

Team named against Bristol:

01 Dave Kilcoyne
02 Damien Varley
03 Stephen Archer
04 Billy Holland
05 Dave Foley
06 Tommy O'Donnell
07 Sean Dougall
08 Paddy Butler
09 Duncan Williams
10 Ian Keatley
11 Luke O'Dea
12 James Downey
13 Casey Laulala
14 Doug Howlett (c)
15 Denis Hurley

16 Wian du Preez
17 Marcus Horan
18 BJ Botha
19 Sean Henry
20 Duncan Casey
21 Brian Hayes
22 Phillip Donnellan
23 Dave O'Callaghan
24 Barry O'Mahony
25 Peter Stringer
26 Scott Deasy
27 Danny Barnes
28 Johne Murphy
29 Sean Scanlon

by **rodders** Wed 15 Aug 2012, 12:54 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:POC was brilliant last year when fit. Like a lot of locks he's playing some of his best rugby in his early 30's.

Mobility and passing aren't his strengths. But surely what he brings are huge assets to any team no matter what their style. His lineout skills and his inspirational leadership are still essential to Munster and Ireland.

ROG is past it though.

Totally agree on POC....... he's still one of the,if not the, best locks around.

In terms of ROG..... he still has something to offer...but ... censored

....

by red_stag Wed 15 Aug 2012, 1:04 pm

O'Connell is still a great talent. I just think that handling skills and mobility have never been part of his game and at 33 years of age he is unlikely to add them now.

To my mind he is a "modern enforcer". The enforcers of old would deter and respond to dirty or violent play by the opposition with the same but that type of guy isn't effective any more.

Now it seems its a guy who uses their personality or physique to bring aggression to the game in a controlled manner like Paulie does.

by thebandwagonsociety Wed 15 Aug 2012, 1:08 pm

Were the pre-season opponents organised by Penney or were they sorted before he took the helm?

by red_stag Wed 15 Aug 2012, 1:14 pm

I would imagine that it was sorted before he took the helm. In fact I wonder how much say the coach has in that versus the CEO or the Team Manager.

by Don Alfonso Wed 15 Aug 2012, 6:40 pm

Is Hanrahan injured?

by Thomond Wed 15 Aug 2012, 7:32 pm

Don't think so, he's hardly with some of their younger sides in Rockwell. Don't know what's going on. You would have thought on the bench at least. Still might see him in another game or two.

by Feckless Rogue Wed 15 Aug 2012, 7:34 pm

This is Ireland though. Maybe we should keep him on the bench for 5 or 6 years for fear of him making a mistake.

by Thomond Wed 15 Aug 2012, 7:38 pm

FR, I believe things are changing under Penney, we don't know the full story so making conclusions based on sweet FA is moronic. Penney is committed to youth and his panels show he is including a lot of young guys in the team and squad

by Don Alfonso Wed 15 Aug 2012, 7:40 pm

What is it you actually do n the IRFU, Feckless?

by Feckless Rogue Wed 15 Aug 2012, 8:03 pm

Thomond wrote:FR, I believe things are changing under Penney, we don't know the full story so making conclusions based on sweet FA is moronic. Penney is committed to youth and his panels show he is including a lot of young guys in the team and squad

I know, I was only messin.

Don I'm actually the IRFU's executive vice officer in charge of thinking up cool things.

by Feckless Rogue Wed 15 Aug 2012, 8:13 pm

I wasn't really qualified but luckily my dad is high up in the IRFU so he found me this position. It pays 300k a year. If I prove myself as good at thinking up cool things, I'm hoping to get moved up to the "Hair Brained Schemes" department. That's where they came up with the new foreign signing rules. Cutting edge stuff.

by Don Alfonso Wed 15 Aug 2012, 8:19 pm

I had initially presumed you were having a laugh, but the level of convincing, authentic-soundng detail...

by **profitius** Wed 15 Aug 2012, 8:26 pm

red_stag wrote:O'Connell is still a great talent. I just think that handling skills and mobility have never been part of his game and at 33 years of age he is unlikely to add them now.

Stag, POCs mobility is his greatest strength and its what seperates him from most locks IMO. I've heard a well known fitness/conditioning coach say hes the best athlete he has worked with out of hundreds. I think you ment his ball carrying is a weakness. I think hes a decent ball carrier but the problem under McGahan was that MUnster were too predictable so whenever POC carried the ball there were 3 defenders waiting for him. This season I don't think he'll be asked to carry as much but when he does I expect him to have a little more space.

by red_stag Wed 15 Aug 2012, 8:31 pm

Here's hoping.

by Sin é Thu 16 Aug 2012, 11:05 am

Don Alfonso wrote:Is Hanrahan injured?

He would be a bit behind the others in pre-season as he was at the U20s world cup. Probably just brought him to France for the bonding.

Has any of the Ulster U20s featured yet? (Henderson?)

by Mickado Thu 16 Aug 2012, 11:35 am

profitius wrote:
red_stag wrote:O'Connell is still a great talent. I just think that handling skills and mobility have never been part of his game and at 33 years of age he is unlikely to add them now.

Stag, POCs mobility is his greatest strength and its what seperates him from most locks IMO. I've heard a well known fitness/conditioning coach say hes the best athlete he has worked with out of hundreds. I think you ment his ball carrying is a weakness. I think hes a decent ball carrier but the problem under McGahan was that MUnster were too predictable so whenever POC carried the ball there were 3 defenders waiting for him. This season I don't think he'll be asked to carry as much but when he does I expect him to have a little more space.

O'Connell is not a good ball carrier. Or offloader. The rest of his game is excellent, but those are two areas he's not very good at. A good carrier who's getting tackled by 3 defenders should have the confidence and nous to offload to space, 3 defenders on him means gaps in the defense, but he very rarely offloads.

by LeinsterFan4life Thu 16 Aug 2012, 11:44 am

Sin é wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:Is Hanrahan injured?

He would be a bit behind the others in pre-season as he was at the U20s world cup. Probably just brought him to France for the bonding.

Has any of the Ulster U20s featured yet? (Henderson?)

Sam coughlan murray played for leinster there on saturday

by red_stag Thu 16 Aug 2012, 11:54 am

Didn't JJ Hanrahan play in our first match?

As Sin E says he needs a break; he played the Junior RWC, by contrast Keatley and Deasy did not play or train over the summer. Its about getting everyone fit.

I suspect we will see him at either 10 or 12 against London Irish.

by Don Alfonso Thu 16 Aug 2012, 11:58 am

Farrell and Nelson played in France and are apparently to feature against the Tiggers.

by **rodders** Thu 16 Aug 2012, 12:03 pm

Mickado wrote:
O'Connell is not a good ball carrier. Or offloader. The rest of his game is excellent, but those are two areas he's not very good at. A good carrier who's getting tackled by 3 defenders should have the confidence and nous to offload to space, 3 defenders on him means gaps in the defense, but he very rarely offloads.

I actually think O'Connell is a fantastic carrier. His work rate is unparalled and he rarely fails to cross the gainline, he has superb body angles when taking contact for a big guy.

What he does though is sometimes carry too much, pick and go when quick ball is needed and sometimes block the 10 channel when the ball needs to go to someone quicker. Some of his carries are sign posted too and he can get thumped because of this.

He is a pretty poor offloader though for a modern lock but in most others aspects of lock play he is one of the worlds best. Even at 33 I wouldn't swap him for anyone.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 16 Aug 2012, 12:06 pm

rodders wrote:
Mickado wrote:
O'Connell is not a good ball carrier. Or offloader. The rest of his game is excellent, but those are two areas he's not very good at. A good carrier who's getting tackled by 3 defenders should have the confidence and nous to offload to space, 3 defenders on him means gaps in the defense, but he very rarely offloads.

I actually think O'Connell is a fantastic carrier. His work rate is unparalled and he rarely fails to cross the gainline, he has superb body angles when taking contact for a big guy.

What he does though is sometimes carry too much, pick and go when quick ball is needed and sometimes block the 10 channel when the ball needs to go to someone quicker. Some of his carries are sign posted too and he can get thumped because of this.

He is a pretty poor offloader though for a modern lock but in most others aspects of lock play he is one of the worlds best. Even at 33 I wouldn't swap him for anyone.

In fairness to him, he isn't really a modern lock though.

by red_stag Thu 16 Aug 2012, 12:09 pm

Thats one thing though about O'Connell.

Look back to 2006 when he was so instrumental in winning the Heineken Cup.

Thats nearly 7 years ago. What can he do now that he couldn't do then? He should have been learning how do develop handling skills particularly during his lenghty injuries which meant physical activities were limited.

by **rodders** Thu 16 Aug 2012, 1:01 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
rodders wrote:
He is a pretty poor offloader though for a modern lock but in most others aspects of lock play he is one of the worlds best. Even at 33 I wouldn't swap him for anyone.

In fairness to him, he isn't really a modern lock though.

I do think O'Connell is very much a modern lock with his athleticism and workrate around the pitch. He's raised the bar and continues to do so.

However even in comparison to some older peers like Leo Cullen and Brad Thorn his handling skills and passing are poor. The same is true of O'Callaghan, maybe more so. Its the nature of the gameplan they have been used to implementing I suppose.

by Mickado Thu 16 Aug 2012, 1:44 pm

Rods, I’m not sure where I saw it but someone had posted POC’s carrying stats for the tests he’s played this season, they’re appalling. Something like 18 carries, for less than 18m’s in the summer tests alone. He carries too much, and doesn’t do enough with the ball in hand. Now, I’m not saying he’s a bad player, clearly I don’t believe that, but at this stage of his career, he’s unlikely to become a great carrier or handler, so I’d prefer if he concentrated on smashing every ruck and ensuring quick ball, because he’s epically good at that.

by red_stag Thu 16 Aug 2012, 1:47 pm

O'Connell is not a good ball carrier. However he has excellent ball retention. He rarely if ever loses the ball in contact and is ideal at setting up a platform but I think rarely makes hard yards.

by **rodders** Thu 16 Aug 2012, 2:15 pm

Well that is part of carrying stag/mick, he takes the contact, retains posession and sucks in defenders. Its not all about metres gained and line breaks. As a lock I wouldn't expect those stats to look that impressive.

The problem is sometimes he takes those 3rd or 4th phase carries when there is quick ball and space available and good opportuntities are lost.

by Mickado Thu 16 Aug 2012, 2:17 pm

rodders wrote:Well that is part of carrying stag/mick, he takes the contact, retains posession and sucks in defenders. Its not all about metres gained and line breaks. As a lock I wouldn't expect those stats to look that impressive.

The problem is sometimes he takes those 3rd or 4th phase carries when there is quick ball and space available and good opportuntities are lost.

The problem isn't that he doesn't make many yards, it's that he takes the carrier role too often for someone who doesn't make many yards. Ireland were happy to ship the ball to him as first reciever all too often, and his retention was good, so we didn't lose the ball, but we were going nowhere most of the time.

by red_stag Thu 16 Aug 2012, 2:30 pm

rodders wrote:The problem is sometimes he takes those 3rd or 4th phase carries when there is quick ball and space available and good opportuntities are lost.

That is not good ball carrying especially when you factor in that he usually takes the ball static and makes about 1-2m at most.

I think that both Munster and Ireland would fare better to let Paulie concentrate on other aspects of the game instead of having him as the primary ballcarrier.

by **rodders** Thu 16 Aug 2012, 2:33 pm

Yes I agree with that Mick, just not the comment that he isn't a good carrier per se.

He is overused as a carrier and that is the fault of O'Connell himself but also his half-backs who need to direct things and tell him to get out of the way when not needed to carry. That is a difficult thing to do to an iconic player like O'Connell, particularly if he is captain or vice captain.

by **rodders** Thu 16 Aug 2012, 2:36 pm

Look we are all saying the same thing here. I just think O'Connell is a very good carrier when used effectively. Unfortunately a lot of the time he isn't.

by Mickado Thu 16 Aug 2012, 2:37 pm

rodders wrote:Look we are all saying the same thing here. I just think O'Connell is a very good carrier when used effectively. Unfortunately a lot of the time he isn't.

Yep, I'll go along with that.

by red_stag Thu 16 Aug 2012, 2:44 pm

rodders wrote:Look we are all saying the same thing here. I just think O'Connell is a very good carrier when used effectively. Unfortunately a lot of the time he isn't.

Yes fair point

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