Facing which team gets your nerves the jumpiest?

First topic message reminder :

Well the start of the 4N is almost upon us and the nerves and anticipation have already set in. It got me thinking though: which team gives me the biggest case of the heebie jeebies when the ABs face them?

I guess this changes over the years and depends greatly on the form of the team. In the 90s, facing Australia was a tall order and one we often found unable to surmount. Traditionally the Boks have been the greatest foe and they still command for me the greatest respect, which in turn you might say conjures up the biggest fear. France in a World Cup knockout match fills me with a deep sense of dread. England are a team I must confess I'm always glad to see beaten but I suspect I am not alone in this feeling. The fear of losing is different to the prospect of losing to SA. It is more the fear of losing to a team that is all too willing to remind you of having lost to them, (and fair enough!). Then there are the teams that have never beaten the ABs but there is the tangible fear like this series against Ireland that records are made to be broken.

So if you were to create a world ranking of fear for me as an AB supporter, I think it'd go something like this.

1. South Africa
2. France (capable of jumping to 1 in a RWC knockout match
3. Australia
4. Wales
5. England
6. Argentina
7. Ireland
8. Scotland
9. Manu Samoa
10. Japan (one day they built tiny transistors and changed the world. I think they can go to the other extreme and create Godzilla rugby players and change the rugby world).

Honourable mentions Georgia and Romania. They strike fear in me because players one to fifteen look like something spawned from a giant cloning machine.

Who strikes fear into you the most at the moment?

Gentleman, what you are talking about is individual flair, the ability of the individual to spot an opportunity to do something special.

JPPietersen showed during the whole season that he has that ability, Lambie has it, Goosen has it and even Hougaard has it, unfortunately we have a situatin whereby injuries have curtailed their selection.

As such those unpredictable moments are rare, and considering individual moments hase very little to do with gameplan, but rather opportunism it will come when those players are on the pitch.

This predictable gameplan will take on a totally new dimension then. As for Australia, they used tp play with a lot more freedom, however in the last 12 months they were being stopped at base and it has resulted in a less effective backline who hasn't been unpredictable for quite some time.

With the All Blacks winning nigh on 85% of their matches against them in recent years, I think you are clinging onto a reputation of the past, and the same with SA.

It is a shame we have so many key players out, we might have to wait for next year to show thr All Blacks a thing or two.

Hi,Biltong and Taylorman,firstly with respect it is a case of one game in it was very clever.The AB`s DID`NT go the crash bang route but used the flair players wide.With the exception of Conrad Smith in the backs that was the strongest availablle back division.Forward the jury is still out for me on Messam at 6 on that match could`nt really judge players.Both OZ and the Boks have so many players missing it`s a case of make do and mend.2012 may be a water shed for the Boks as 2009 was for the ABs bedding in new players because of injuries .At least your still winning OZ with front foot ball and a couple of changes in the backs could still be very difficult.AAC to 15 ,Cooper to 10,Barnes 12,Fainga 13,Mitchell and Ionea on the wings.Genia as Captain is dodgy his decision making isn`t good at the moment.

Biltong those moments arent as rare as you think. NZ and Oz do select players with flair because of the potential to bust open the match at any time. That means the gameplan revolves around it. The forwards do their utmost to supply the backs good fast ball.

The backs usually have one of many many prehearsed moves on and it requires that flair and individuality to maximise the effect. Given that it is very central to the gameplan indeed.

That's the difference between that and the gameplans of the three countries. Jp pieterson is a very talented player. The problem is little of the gameplan revolves around his flair. In fact in his runs this year they were isolated, individual efforts he himself created.

He stands out amongst SA backs that way, because he's one of few to buck the trend.

Then take Dagg, given free reign over his territory, was everywhere on Saturday. That's the difference. Here its central to winning matches. Scoring tries is the primary goal other than the actual win. In SA its a by product of the up front efforts. The gameplan is based on dominating the confrontational areas, gaining a physical advantage, beating the opposition into submission, not scoring tries.

Agree the injuries are going to hurt SA but even if they were available, the gameplan needs to change. A shift to quality use of the ball for a start.

I am saying rare for us, not the All Blacks and Wallabies.

You yourself have many a time said on here the gameplan can only change when you have the players to execute with more flair.

If you look at a future backline of . Hougaard, 10. Goosen, 11. Paul Jordaan, 12. Jan Serfontein, 13. F Steyn, 14. JP Pietersen and 15. Patrick Lambie, the game plan will need the minimum of tweaking as Goosen automatically involves his backline, these guys will play a different game to what we have now.

So once again, it boils down to player skills, Morne doesn't have it, Jean de Villiers doesn't have it, Kirchner doesn't have it.

That's a start. Personally I think its the gameplan that is needed first. Its systemic. SA already play the type of rugby with the cheetahs, lions and sharks and from what I've seen the Currie cup sides.

A few players aren't going to change it. By adhering to this do what we do best with the forwards thing is denying SA of its biggest potential for improvement. Creativity in the backs through running the ball.

That's an area clearly lacking at the elite international level. Surely the best way to improve is to focus on the not so strong areas rather than try and squeeze some small improvement in the already strong forward effort.

Why does no SA coach ever ask 'what do we need to improve our backplay'. 'Why can't we score tries through the backs like oz and NZ? ' when SA rugby is screaming out for better backplay. Its like its a taboo subject.

The likes of dagg, beale, cooper, cruden and many many players over the years are products of the system that promotes a certain style. Unfortunately, so are most of SA backs over the years. The level isn't there because its not encouraged.

Taylorman, the only way Meyer is going to change his gameplan and relax the structures is when these new guys show him what they can do, the mindset will change from Meyer when his players show him he can beleive.

all they need to do is play naturally for a few tests and do some magic, he will become a beleiver.

Seeing is believing.

Biltong, for me Meyer is at the moment sticking as far as can be seen to the Bulls style game.When Fourie Dupreezplayed he made the tactical decisions Morne Steyn was just there to kick the goals.It has rarely been a question of ever not having a top grade kicker.Today you could easily field 3 or 4 on the field at the same time.If the organ grinder teaches his monkey to do certain things and he does them can you complain.PDV was an attack minded coach he was`nt strong enough to impose the game plan on his players.Steyn originally was an attack minded 10 PDV and the Bulls made him what he is you can hardly complain if continues in the same vein.You build your test side around your strongest Super sides .Bulls/Stormers except at Scrum time that was a dominant combination.You have plenty of flair players problem is you are the BOKS you win ,you don`t lose.IF the Coach suddenly changes course and starts
winning nby different methods.THEN his opponents work him out and then you start losing its the coaches that get the chop.As an example for two years pre 2003 RWC Mitchell/Deans had a side with about a 84% win rate.In the first two 3Ns matches 2003 they put 50 points on both the Boks and OZ away.By the end of the tournament the margins were very small,two matches versus England lost because of poor goal kicking.When in the 2003 RWC the traditional AB forward play was required it was`nt there by AB`s standards it was lightweight.Exit Coaches enter the 3 wise men rebuild the forwards platform and start from there.Post RWC most of your experiecend players have gone or are injured .As was the ABs post 2003,2007 but from there they rebuilt.NO sensible person with any rugby knowledge doubts the Boks are a great side.BUT if you want to adapt you must accept losses 2009 was one of worst in AB history but the sea change made them more successful since.

Alan, in a sense Meyer has little choice to stick to the gameplan that has been part of the Boks over the last 8 years, the problem he faces is that at certain positions he has no other option but to select those that are available.

Thnik back to the impact hougaard has had in the RWC last year, his individualism caused him to be noticed. Unfortunately Frans Ludeke has messed up his game this season. Who can Meyer select at ten? He has already shown his interest in Goosen, but he isn't playing yet, and will need some game time. Lambie has rarely played ten and showed a lack of confidence and form. Frans Steyn is by far the best 12 at the moment. J d Villiers is the best candidate fr leader, not my choice to even be in the team, but you need to understand why he is there. JP Pietersen is injured. Habana is still a good player. And then you have Kirchner (not my favourite player), but who else.

Lets move on a year from now.

Sarel Pretorius, Dewlad Duvenhage, Piet van Zyl all have potential and can also push for a place at 9 to compete with Hougaard.

Goosen will be back soon, and another year at Super XV can cement his place, hopefully Lambie has less injureis next year and can regain his form. There are two very good and exciting tens.

Farns Steyn can be pushed by Jan Serfontein in the next year, Frans bigger with some skills and Serfontein with lots of flair.

At 13, you have William Small Smith and Paul Jordaan, a little soon for them this year, but next year they are candidates if they can show their under 20 form in super rugby.

JP Pietersen will be back, Louis Ludick will hopefully et a chance by then, he deserves it.

Jaco Taute shows promise at 15, but injured.

So our back line options have been limited, because of two things, not enough depth of senior players, and injuries. As soon as the younger crop has a little more experience they can get a look in.

Who of the players in our backline would you replace with whom?

I would like to see your opinion.

Still a bit weird. So change will come from players getting selected in key bok positions based on one gameplan and will seek to changing the coaches mind by playing to a different gameplan. If that's what it takes then the wrong person is in charge.

I think its already changing at the lower levels with the traditional bulls and stormers strongholds not featuring as strongly this year.

I keep thinking of the scenario where say Rennie and Smith took over as backline coaches. First they'd look for a ten that can first do the basics...run kick pass etc but then they'd focus on the player having vision, a strong decision maker, distributor and one not afraid to take the line on.

And so on through the backs. Lambie and goosen would meet their requirements as a ten. Steyn wouldn't get near the side as he just wouldnt fit the gameplan, despite his goalkicking abilities.

Lambie and goosen are wasted in the meyer environment. No point having the talent if their skills are not central to the gameplan.

Hadn't read the post above so good to see meyers flexible enough. That will be interesting to watch as players come into the scene more.
Id like to see more back oriented gameplays continue... then we will really be in trouble...

It would've been interesting to see if JP and Goosen had been fit whether Meyer would've gone for their selection over Steyn and JDV. I think as JDV is captain (JP is a better choice for me) I don't think he would've gone for either as it looked as though he wanted to give a last chance saloon to M Steyn. The fact he played better than he has means he'll be given another chance. Goosen may well have been an option on the bench though to prove himself late in the game.

I think though, the situation with injuries means Meyer's hands are tied. The bigger the match, probably the more likely Meyer is to go with the players he knows. But you do get the feeling he is aware of the pressure to select other more attacking minded players if his favoured experienced players don't perform.

Meyer is certainly under pressure from media, pundits and supporters.

They are all fedup with what has transpired over the past four years and the signs are there that a media not really permitted to criticise publically in SA (the Pc thing and all) has started to question gameplans, selections and tactics, above all the meida, presenters etc are now crtiticising individals and are publically stating their cases, this was never a case before and especially during the tenure of PDV.

You need to remember SA asked for Meyer, they see in him the guy that will revitalise SA rugby and so far he has bent under signifcant pressure.

when have you ever heard a coach admit Morne Steyn is at last chance saloon?

from an irish perspective i would say scotland. no matter how poor they are we seem to make heavy weather of beating them and the games are nail bitingly tense and unenjoyable (last years 6 nations was a notable exception)

wales have the indian sign over us. Even if we play out of our skins in Cardiff next year we will conspire to loose. perhaps another well worked line out where somebody in the lower tier throws the ball in : 0

The reality is when you look at the bok team of the weekend, you need to ask yourself and obviously Meyer needs to ask himself which of these players are good enough when all injured players and the youngsters who have come through.

The fact is not that many.

Jannie can be overtaken by Coneie Oosthuizen in a flash.
Who would you select in a back row out of Burger, Juan Smith, Pierre SPies, Willem Alberts, Ryan Kankowski, Marcell Coetzee, Heinrich Brussow, Duane Vermeulen and Jean Deysel?

Is Francois Hougaard really best at 9 or 14?

Would you select Morne Steyn if Goosen is available?

Is Jean de Villiers better than Jan Serfontein, PAul Jordaan?

Is Kirchner better than Lambie or Jaco Taute?

So who are you left with that is undoubtedly the best in their position?

Maybe, Beast, Bismarck, Bekker, Etzebeth, JP Pietersen and Frans Steyn?

After injuries that leaves Beast, Bekker, Etzebeth and Arguably Frans steyn as the only "certainties"

Makes for pretty sad reading.

That's one way to look at it mate but another is that there are some good young players coming through and that if the more experienced players Meyer picks don't perform, then there are alternatives and pressure will come to pick form over experience.

The Wallabies don't seem to be able to replicate Deans' style of play he wants to impose on the game. There are rumblings already there and Ewen McKenzie is looking increasingly likely of getting a call up. Meyer has just come into the position replacing PDV. Say what you like about PDV, he did try to play an attacking game. Meyer is of the old guard when the Bulls and Stormers were dominating and looking imposing. Now they just seem imposing on defence and only then the Stormers. In test rugby, you need a solid set piece platform but you also need to tick over the scoreboard in tries as well as penalties. I get the feeling there's a revolution slowly bubbling underneath here. It won't happen quickly but I get the impression the tide is slowly turning in the type of team SA can pick to be at their most effective. Injuries are not helping the cause but an inability to beat NZ or Aus will see the momentum swing even more in favour of a new playing guard which will see a rethink in terms of tactics.

Get Smith, Burger and Alberts together and you'd give the NZ backrow a hell of a run for thier money. I'd say with the game needing more complete 7s than just fetchers that'd be the bomb diggity backrow.

Really looking forward to McKenzie at the helm of Australia. For world rugby's sake. We need a confident, outrageous Australia to light up world rugby with some razzle dazzle and they need the forwards to do so. NZ could well have lost on Sat by only being 5 up in the last few mins-we all know Aussie can pull something out of nothing. I'd say the Bledisloe would cross the ditch within two years of McKenzie taking the helm. Of course I'd love to be proven wrong there.

I'd like to see a Goosen/Frans/JP midfield. Or Lambie at 10-shake things up a bit. I like that Hougaard's pace at 9 can freeze defences and get the big boys running at more static opposition.

Problem is DC his pass is muck. He has terrific pace but how many times does he use it and how many times is he passing?

The frustrating thing is that both Australia and SA are capable of being better but selections, tactics and injuries are not helping their cause. That game in Sydney was absolute gash for most of it. Even the commentators were saying how quickly it lost shape and interest. And Oz were in the game right up until the 77th minute!

Problem is even when we win we want the opposition to have played better because we deride more satisfaction from a win. I do want to see Australia in particular play better (SA are not doing that badly and are being judged too harshly with all their injury woes. Take Mealamu, Woodcock, Read, Carter, Smith, Whitelock, McCaw, Messam out of the squad and see how we fare!). Sure Oz have similar injury woes (though not as extensive) but their tactics and selections have been as gash as the game on Saturday.

Disney, I like how you think mate.

Goosen, Steyn and JP will be my dream 10, 12, 13 and Burger, Smith and Alberts my dream backrow.


(As he says that he wakes up and his coffee is cold)

That is a frightening axis though!

Kirchner also has to go. I'd rather have Aplon there than him but Biltong mentioned a young kid who could be given a shot. Chuck in another young winger balanced out by the experience of Habana and that is a frightening mix of power and slick handling. A sobering thought to throw out the cold coffee and get straight to the hard stuff.

Kia think Pocock just made Aussie's woes that much worse! I'd say if anything happens to Genia and both those two are out then I'd back Aussie to get fourth.

Yeah you have a point about his pass. Maybe that's the Kiwi in me. I've been used to crap passing 9s for 16 years. Can't believe how excited I am about Aaron Smith. IF we give him some clean ****ing pill to play with!

I just got the feeling that Pocock had too much of the burden placed on him to get some ball. In his desperation to get it, he got pinged too many times. But you have to lay some of that blame on his teammates.

We've had donkeys for too long. I remember Smith getting a turnover in the second half and throwing out a bullet to Carter who was standing at least 20m back. It flew into his hands. Where has that pass been for so many years!

The AB rush defence and Barnes sitting deeper and deeper as the game went on and the strange tactic of Genia not clearing the ball himself and insisting Australia try set up some phases in their 22 did them no favours. Beale came into flyhalf but the ball was painfully slow and Rolland was allowing a very generous offside line. Lateral running and a weak Aussie blowout and they were cannon fodder.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:That is a frightening axis though!

Kirchner also has to go. I'd rather have Aplon there than him but Biltong mentioned a young kid who could be given a shot. Chuck in another young winger balanced out by the experience of Habana and that is a frightening mix of power and slick handling. A sobering thought to throw out the cold coffee and get straight to the hard stuff.

Yeah, habana at 11, Louis Ludick or Paul Jordaan at 14, and then Lambie and Jaco Taute can fight it our for 15. I'l, probably go Taute at 15, and Lambie on the bench as he can cover 10 and 15.

This season its a case of make do,Hougaard at 9,Peter Grant at 10,Habana on one wing ,not sure about the other.F Steyn 12,Pietersen13.OrJordaan ,Lambie at 15.Always liked Gio Aplon at 15 but he is a bit on the small side,though you could put Franny at 15 with Jordaan partnering Pietersen.noy sure where Ruan Pianaar or Goosen plays.Heres a wild one Spies at centre he`s no Number 8.
Burger gone for the season who knows what he will be like when he comes back.Same with Juan Smith last heard he was doubtful ever coming back whats the latest there.Broussow injured ,but he`s out of form and the day of the fetcher pure and simple seems done.

Aplon is small but I never saw that as a problem for him under the high ball. He knows how to enter a line and run good angles. Where is he in the grand scheme of things Biltong? Lambie is cover for 10 and 15 and Aplon could be cover for wing or fullback. That'd be two fairly experienced players to call upon from the bench. Try your Taute in the starting team and have options to take the heat off him.

I don't think Meyer likes small players Kia, I tihnk his time has come and gone

Shame. You think he should be gone or that just Meyer won't pick him?

Will have to have a closer look at this Taute you've mentioned. De Jongh was another player I liked and looked penetrating. F Steyn doesn't shine as best as he should with his namesake inside him but now that JP looks a real prospect at 13, I think he's another to disappear off the radar.

Problem with Aplon, and I like him a lot as a player, he has a big heart and huge guts, but there are guys like Louis Ludick, Jaco Taute and Willie le Roux on the horison, they are all skilled, young and exciting prospects and bigger than Aplon.

I will be surprised to see him in a bok jersey again, unless our injury toll rises by november.

As for Juan de Jongh.

He doesn't distribute, and I am done with players who can't pass a bloody ball.

If I was Meyer I would just watch super Rugby and if passing and offloading isn't part of your natural game, you're out.

No look in, no chance.

I am currently having a discussion on another site with a guy about J d Villiers, it just peeves me off to such an extent I wish I could just get an explanation from these players as to why they don;t look to get the ball into a player's hand that is in a better position than him.

F.... I honestly had enough of that.

You've got your work cut out with convincing some of your supporters of the joys of distribution it seems mate!

Your criteria would actually make for a tasty backline. Then all that remains is what to do with Hougaard and who to replace him with a slicker pass.

I just had this response from him.

Rugby 365 said Jean de Villiers ran hard and tackled even harder. That about sums him up.

then he came with this Gem, when Jean de Villiers run with the ball, he looks for a landing strip.

Time will tell on this one. Good to see the media, fans etc are now openly criticising the team, its selections etc.

This is crucial to always putting out the best team. In NZ we've got near on 4 million selectors, rugby commentators etc and we wouldn't have it any other way.

Transparency, open selection policy must come to the front of all things rugby. Pc, back room discussions etc have all resulted in narrow minded decisions and overlooking the obvious over the last four years.

It 'feels' like it is changing.

Funnily enough I never think we are going to beat New Zealand, what I worry about is whether we will play well, which is why when we do and lose narrowly it always allows us to take the sort of pride New Zealand and South Aftica just don't understand. South Africa seem more beatable, but again we can lose to them even if we do everything right. So losing isn't such an awful prospect, we are used to it.

In order, the teams that give me the heebyjeebies because we could or should beat them, but only if we play well:

1 France
2 Ireland
3 England
4 Argentina
5 Samoa
6 Australia.

1. England - despite Wales' record against them recently, I'm always a bit more nervous about playing them.
2. South Africa - We've come too close on too many occasions, everytime we play I think "this is the one"
3. France - Jekyll and Hyde
4. Ireland
5. Samoa - A thorn in our side

From a Welsh perspective,

I'm bloody jumpy when we play anyone at the moment!

NZ has just gone to the bottom of me list

Nice one Mysti remember that when the "Blackness"decends on you in 2013.
All Blacks neither forgive or forget remember France 2009 in france
Merry Xmas and a happy 2013 to you

1.NZ & France
2.SA, England & Australia
3.Wales & Argentina
4. Scotland & Italy
5. Samoa & Fiji
5. Namibia, Canada, Japan, USA, Romania, Georgia and anyone else.

From a Welsh point of view:
1. NZ
2. SA
3. Samoa
4. Argentina
5. Australia
6. France
7. Ireland
8. Fiji
9. Scotland away

10. England

Linebreaker wrote:10. England

Not in my book, we beat them consistently