Ireland: Last night I watched....and......

Hi guys,

Have a week off this week so eventually ran out of things to do and catch up on so I popped on to youtube to watch the entire HCup final again of this year and the guy who put it up I've learned has also put up a whole load of other full games. DELIGHTED.

So....last night I watched the game against Italy on St.Patricks Day 2007 in Rome. The championship was in the balance and we needed to win then put on a score to beat France on points difference after they had beaten us in Croke part thanks to Vincent (the devil Clerc) but had lost to England later.

So we went out and played the game, knowing we had to win by a fair amount, their 10 kept them in touch with a couple of drop goals but we were scoring some tries and got either 2 or 3 in the first half before the flood games opened and we won by a very large margin but did conceed two tries.

Either way France later on got a controversial score late in the game against Scotland and Bernard Laport or however you say his name went mad and there probably hasn't been a championship lost by so little since.

I remember sitting in the middle of the Harcourt Street stunned by the whole thing just as I had been on Hill16.

Life goes on.

The point of this entire article is I wanted to throw a bit of a then and now light on the whole thing, so with that in mind, there were a few things I noticed that I had forgotten about or rather knew but my opinion was reinforced.

1) Stringer was unreal. The guy's pass was (is??) so fast. He didn't make a break himself or kick at all but his service was lightening. In 2007 the new rules helping defences hadn't been introduced yet so quick ball was golden ball. I couldn't help but think how useful that pass could be to the present day Ireland although for obvious reasons was able to notice that between 2008 and 2010 he would have been a much less useful player.

2) ROG. While he had a very bad day kicking from the tee he was outstanding out of hand. His kicking pinned the Italians back a fair few times. Also it was great to see him varying the kicks, there were long spirals, hastily kicked punts, slick little grubbers, he had the whole array of tricks. Even then he stood far too deep but the outside backs were immense.

3) The outside backs were immense. Darcy in particular made 3 or 4 clean linebreaks. Was excellent at seeing the space around him and offloaded for the first try of the day out of the tackle, it was a beaut of a try too going through Darcy, Hickie, BOD and finally to Dempsey. The depth they ran at, the offloading, the invention and creativity was simply beautiful to behold, particularly when Italy got a bit tired after 30 minutes and again after 55 or 60.
Watch the tries from that game and you will see what I mean. This is in stark contrast to the Ireland of 2011 and 2012.

4) Hickie. We miss a guy who has that out and out speed and finishing ability as well as left boot. I believe Earls is one who could fill this role. Others have mentioned Conway, Zebo and Gilroy. We have outside backs who are dangerous but I haven't seen one who can do it the way or as regularly as Denis. I believe one or more of these guys could make it but it will take a lot of hard work. The thought of Gilroy and Bowe or Gilroy and Conway on the wings is a nice thought.

5) Easterby was a giant. He was our Ferris in that match. He just looked so much more powerful than everyone else, he and David Wallace were making mince meat out of players. I felt he deserved some recognition.

6) There was no Paul O'Connell and between Easterby, Mick O'Driscoll and Donnacha O'Callaghan the lineout went to sh1t. One of the few times you'd be able to say that of Ireland in 2007 but there was no POC, I have no idea where O'Kelly was because Hogan came on. This was a blip in my opinion normally our lineout was excellent in those days. What would you call the Irish lineout now? Not excellent anyways.

7) Horan was a mess. He was/is a very mobile player but he really didn't do well in the scrums, for someone who was so mobile he carried poorly and a lot of the time was seen on the wing. I've never really been a Horan fan if I am honest with you, but he had a poor game in this one.

8) BOD was heavy. There seems to be an awful lot of analysis that goes on with O'Driscoll's weight and speed, explosiveness and agility. In this game he was quick and agile but he was heavy. You could see it whenever the camera looked at him he was not a small guy. I thought this would be interesting in light of the 2011 admission that he went and lost some weight and the being that was the 2009 flanker/centre O'Driscoll who scored a bag full of tries in both the 6Nations and the HCup not to mention a very important one against Australia to get a draw.

So that is my relatively pointless article but thought it was a blast down memory lane and although we came up short and I will never in my life forget sitting in an empty Hill16 or sitting in the middle of Harcourt Street after the French had robbed us, it is nice looking back at some of those golden players, Easterby, Horgan, Hickie, Stringer, Wallace; looking at our tactics then as opposed to now and how we played the game.

One thing is for sure this game showed Ireland at their attacking best; the outside backs and the backrow in particular just went beserek, that doesn't really happen with Ireland anymore when we go beserek we normally do it in defensive situations. England vs Ireland 2011 was a good attacking display but were there any others in the Kidney era you can think of? A lot of set piece moves using O'Leary at the back of lineouts and scrums, these plays have long since been figured out and are less used due to the rule change.

Last day of the week off so will see what else I can find.

Fingers crossed for the Argies this evening. a sign that good things come to those who wait. How I will Pichot, Contempomi and now Hernandez could play in this one.

It was awfully close. Losing the 6 Nations was made even worse by the fact that we didn't know how much we needed to win by and kept attacking and conceded a late try.

France had the advantage of knowing exactly how many points they needed to win by. And even then I don't see how the TMO or ref could give that "try" at the end. You couldn't see the ball being grounded. Or is my memory playing tricks on me.

The Backline of Stringer, ROG, D'arcy, O'Driscoll, Horgan, Hickie, Dempsey/Murphy at their peak was as good as any backline in Europe in the pro era. They were the difference between victory and defeat so many times. We had a few very average players in our pack but we used our backs to full effect. We were a great team to watch back then.

We were a great team to watch back then.

Couldn't agree with that more. Some of the stuff we were doing is so far beyond kidneys capabilities in terms of Immagination! Still would have loved to have seen that move where 4 of our guys lined up directly behind the scrum.

Yeah it was unfortunate but that's the way it was. I didn't think it was a try either but....sh1t happens eh?

Serious championship!

Haha. Yeah. I've always wondered what they were going to do when they lined up like that. Never seen any other back line set themselves up in such an unusual way. Wasn't it off a scrum, but the ball never came to them? If I ever met any of them I'd want to know what on earth that move going to be.

I have to say I have fonder memories of the EOS era than the Kidney one. The Grand Slam was great. But it was achieved by passing less and kicking more than any other team, with individual skill from BOD getting us over the line in most games. I wonder what EOS's reputation would be like today if the ball had not had a freakish bounce into Clerc's hands in Croke Park and it was EOS who had won Ireland's first Grand Slam in 58 years. And done it in style too.

Although it has to be said that Scotland, England and Wales were probably much weaker back then than they are now. Is that fair to say?

I saw the AB's line up like that once,I think it was against Italy but can't say for sure,anyway the scrum ended up being scrappy so the no.8 just had to pick from the base to protect the ball.I'd love to know what the plan was in either instance.

Yeah the ball never came out. I agree with u on the eos frOnt, although the 2007 world cup was a disaster!

Does anyone think any of those guys listed can turn into the new age hickie?

Feckless Rogue wrote:

I have to say I have fonder memories of the EOS era than the Kidney one.

Geordan's Murphy's book is being serialised in the Sunday Times today (behind paywall). He is not holding back with his comments on Eddie.

The starting XV that beat England at Croke Park became irreplaceable in Eddie’s eyes. Everything revolved around the untouchables.

Regardless of how well someone like Stevie Ferris or Alan Quinlan or young guys like Luke Fitzgerald, Jamie Heaslip, Tommy Bowe or Rob Kearney performed, the XV were cast in stone. The sense of competition for places, so crucial in any side, was missing.

My tournament was just beginning, though. Girv picked up an injury against France so I was recalled. Eddie was asked if he had any faith in me. “I wouldn’t say I have no faith in Geordan. If I had no faith in Geordan he wouldn’t be in the squad. I have plenty of faith in him. As I said, France had been a team Geordan had struggled against. This is a different game and a different team.”

I know all that Sin. Eddie took conservative selections to the extreme. I just enjoyed watching Ireland more back than because of the way they played.

ireland v sth africa promises to be a real treat of running rugby in the autumn internationals

the poor ball is going to get a serious kicking

good points on eddie. not a very likeable bloke and a very conservative selector however the quality of rugby we played was different class to what we play under kidney.

Yeah dave that is a good summary.

I am dreading the idea of playing S.Africa and Argentina because we will try the old style against them and they are probably better than us at it!

Yeah we all hated Eddie for some of his selections and with good reason some guys really should have got in the team before they did.

The spectacle and intent was really positive though

France were very lucky to win that 6 nations, they got a very dubious try awarded the last minute against Scotland.

Hickie, Horgan and Dempsey back three had pace, power and brains. Bod and D'arcy were at their peak as a combination as well.

Easterby had a good 6 nations that year, but I felt he was lucky to start. The backrow of Best, Wallace and Leamy had stood out during our Autumn internationals wins against SA and Australia a few months earlier. I think Eddie justified Easterby's selection by saying he gave us another option in the lineout. I think our opening game was against Wales that year and Easterby had a good game and Best never got a sniff of a start for the rest of the year.

It was a pleasure to sit down and watch Ireland play in those days, Eddie was a fantastic backs coach, but things had become too stale with him in charge, which led to his exit.

A team from Britain or Ireland should really take a punt on Eddie as head coach or even just backs coach. Technically a very good coach. His man management and conservative selections were flaws but maybe he's learned from past mistakes.

He had a very high win rate for Ireland and achieved his objective with USA with a win over Russia in the RWC. In fact they denied Ireland a bonus point so probably had as good a world cup as could be hoped for.

Somebody give Eddie a chance. After all, you can't put a badger in a teapot and expect scrambled eggs.

Feckless Rogue wrote:
Somebody give Eddie a chance. After all, you can't put a badger in a teapot and expect scrambled eggs.

I think we had a serious backline to be honest,
Stringer-ROG
Darcy-BOD
Hickie-Dempsey-Horgan

Were very good I think the weakness of that team other than things going stale etc which we all know about were the front 3 and not even the front 3 cos Flannery had the jersey then more a less and he was savage cabbage but Horan and to a lesser extent Hayes weren't that great compared to their rivals in other teams.

Hayes was an absolute legend in my book but that doesn't necessarily mean he was outstandingly talented

I don't think the scrummaging talent among most 6N teams was as deep then as it is now though. They were a weakness against some sides though.


My thoughts on Kidney are known, we play a game we are physically not able for, and one of the reasons we can't produce week in week out and once in a blue moon

Thomond wrote:I don't think the scrummaging talent among most 6N teams was as deep then as it is now though. They were a weakness against some sides though.


My thoughts on Kidney are known, we play a game we are physically not able for, and one of the reasons we can't produce week in week out and once in a blue moon

I think the Argies and Saffas COULD do a number on us in a big way and really give the IRFU a wake up call if both of them come to the Aviva and beat us, their ticket sales will not be happy, especially if we are playing one off runners rugby

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Yeah dave that is a good summary.

I am dreading the idea of playing S.Africa and Argentina because we will try the old style against them and they are probably better than us at it!

Yeah we all hated Eddie for some of his selections and with good reason some guys really should have got in the team before they did.

The spectacle and intent was really positive though

The saddest part of what you guys are suggesting is to say kicking is a "style"

touche biltong but it is a lot of our playing philosophy.

We do the one off runners and runners off 10 then the occasional telegraphed screen pass but we don't have the strength/mass/power you guys have or most teams in the top 10 have tbh and thus it is beyond stupid to persist with it.

The fact we could play like this against you guys and the argies is terrifyingly stupid

Sin é wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:

I have to say I have fonder memories of the EOS era than the Kidney one.

Geordan's Murphy's book is being serialised in the Sunday Times today (behind paywall). He is not holding back with his comments on Eddie.

The starting XV that beat England at Croke Park became irreplaceable in Eddie’s eyes. Everything revolved around the untouchables.

Regardless of how well someone like Stevie Ferris or Alan Quinlan or young guys like Luke Fitzgerald, Jamie Heaslip, Tommy Bowe or Rob Kearney performed, the XV were cast in stone. The sense of competition for places, so crucial in any side, was missing.

My tournament was just beginning, though. Girv picked up an injury against France so I was recalled. Eddie was asked if he had any faith in me. “I wouldn’t say I have no faith in Geordan. If I had no faith in Geordan he wouldn’t be in the squad. I have plenty of faith in him. As I said, France had been a team Geordan had struggled against. This is a different game and a different team.”

Good read...! Cheers for the heads up

geordan murphy leicester legend but never really did it in the green jersey.

the few times he hit form for ireland he got seriously injured. just one of those things got to feel for the guy. didnt get the rub of the green. Dempsey under Eddie developed a whole new dimension to his game and went from a steady player to a very good one

i will never forget that interception try murphy gave away in the stade de france bout 7 years ago. Smashed the ironing board in frustration. Was like watching rugby in slow motion shocking pass.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Haha. Yeah. I've always wondered what they were going to do when they lined up like that. Never seen any other back line set themselves up in such an unusual way. Wasn't it off a scrum, but the ball never came to them? If I ever met any of them I'd want to know what on earth that move going to be.

I have to say I have fonder memories of the EOS era than the Kidney one. The Grand Slam was great. But it was achieved by passing less and kicking more than any other team, with individual skill from BOD getting us over the line in most games. I wonder what EOS's reputation would be like today if the ball had not had a freakish bounce into Clerc's hands in Croke Park and it was EOS who had won Ireland's first Grand Slam in 58 years. And done it in style too.

Although it has to be said that Scotland, England and Wales were probably much weaker back then than they are now. Is that fair to say?

What, are you serious ? I really cannot understand some of the Irish posters on here, Ireland won their first grand slam in a bazzilion years under Declan Kidneys leadership, and this was after being dumped out of the World Cup under Eddie O'Sullivan. Declan Kidney has always come across as a honest and knowledgable person who has always put rugby first and foremost, on the other hand Eddie O'Sullivan comes across as a deceptive politition who is only looking for his own glory. Eddie O'Sullivan had the "golden generation" when they were in their prime, any decent coach would have done a lot more with them than he did. I honestly think that some of you on here are a little harsh on Declan Kidney and you should show a little more respect to a coach who has done more with Ireland than any other coach has achieved since the 1950's.

He has made Ireland into a backward ass rugby nation and has made us one of the most ugly and underachieving sides in the world. Yeah he deserves a lot of praise.

Thomond wrote:He has made Ireland into a backward ass rugby nation and has made us one of the most ugly and underachieving sides in the world. Yeah he deserves a lot of praise.

I do not see Ireland being a backward ass rugby nation, and I bet a lot of others dont either, it's just the Irish who think like that. I would not say that your side is under achieving either, you are playing at a level that your players represent at the moment.

Don't know what would make you say we're palying at a level that suits our players to be honest, there's little evidence to say we're doing that .We are under performing.

Kidney over O'Sullivan. Why?

O'Sullivan - no Grand Slams, no championships, group stage exit at the RWC, nothing special.

Kidney - Grand Slam, kept Ireland unbeaten for a year, did the unprecedented and led Ireland to beating a SH side at the WC.

That's why.

Even this year considering the increasing flak Kidney has recieved, it shouldn't be forgotten you gave the AB's a severe scare on their turf. Looking at what they've been doing to the Aussies home and away that says a lot.

Or would you rather it be 64 years since Ireland last won a Slam?

the grand slam was a distant memory now LordDowlais

Since then, save 3 performances (England to stop them winning GS, Australia in the world cup and NZ 2nd test) we have played a poor brand of rugby to a poor standard and have gotten very poor results. The stats do not lie we are going backwards

I point blank refuse to believe we do not have the players to be better than we are.

I live in eternal hope that Declan switch to a more expansive faster suitable game plan as opposed to cloning the style of Munster and South Africa from about 3/4 years ago. We do not have the raw power and set piece to do this.

If we choose to get into an arm wrestle in the autumn internationals against Arg and SA we will struggle massively. 2 defeats and Kidney is toast.

Ireland regularly gave New Zealand scares under O'Sullivan. Ireland had a higher win rate under O'Sullivan.

The Grand Slam was achieved in the ELV era playing a style of rugby that has become obsolete and Kidney hasn't changed. Kidney also had some slices of luck which O'Sullivan never enjoyed. For example Stephen Jones missed that kick in in the last minute in 2009. Whereas the ball happened to bounce and land in Vincent Clerc's hands in the last minute in 2007.

So the Grand Slam was great. And fully deserved. 2009 was Ireland best ever year in their history. But it's not that relevant to now. We need to return to the type of game we played under O'Sullivan. With the players we have, we're better equipped to keep the ball in hand and use our backs more I think. Plus this overly defensive approach is horrible to watch. I'd rather lose in style than lose playing anti-rugby.

That said, I'm saying O'Sullivan was brilliant. He was flawed. We're just getting nostalgic about a time when the opposition feared our attacking threat.

i would not dine out on getting to the quarter final of a world cup. It was a great win v a weakened Australian team and a good achievement to top the group but did not take advantage of it. We were mugged off in the quarters (Gatland out thought Kidney big time)

i expected us to get to the quarters and get knocked out we just took a slightly different route.

We performed more consistently and were entertaining under Eddie with a far weaker pack and scrum. He was a stubborn git in terms of selection, a bit of a b0lll0x but a very innovative backs coach. The world cup was a disaster and things just ran their course and his reign had an ugly end.

Kidney must get credit for picking up the pieces and getting us over the line to win a slam after a few near misses BUT since then we have gone backwards

O.k lads, I am not going to get into a peeing match over this so I will give you the 2007 World cup squad and the 2011 world cup squad, now you tell me which one you think is the best and who has achieved most with the weakest squad:-

2007 squad
Simon Best Prop
John Hayes Prop
Marcus Horan Prop
Bryan Young Prop
Rory Best Hooker
Jerry Flannery Hooker
Frankie Sheahan Hooker
Donncha O'Callaghan Lock
Paul O'Connell Lock
Malcolm O'Kelly Lock
Neil Best Flanker
Simon Easterby Flanker
Stephen Ferris Flanker
Alan Quinlan Flanker
David Wallace Flanker
Denis Leamy Number 8
Isaac Boss Scrum-half
Eoin Reddan Scrum-half
Peter Stringer Scrum-half
Ronan O'Gara Fly-half
Paddy Wallace Fly-half
Gordon D'Arcy Centre
Gavin Duffy Centre
Brian O'Driscoll (c) Centre
Brian Carney Wing
Denis Hickie Wing
Shane Horgan Wing
Andrew Trimble Wing
Girvan Dempsey Fullback
Geordan Murphy Fullback

2011 Squad
Tony Buckley, prop
Tom Court, prop
Cian Healy, prop
Mike Ross, prop
Rory Best, hooker
Sean Cronin, hooker
Jerry Flannery, hooker
Leo Cullen, second-round
Donncha O'Callaghan, second-row
Paul O'Connell, second-row
Donnacha Ryan, second-row
Stephen Ferris, flanker
Shane Jennings, flanker
Sean O'Brien, flanker
Jamie Heaslip, No8
Denis Leamy, No8
Isaac Boss, scrum-half
Conor Murray, scrum-half
Eoin Reddan, scrum-half
Ronan O'Gara, fly-half
Jonathan Sexton, fly-half
Gordon D'Arcy, centre
Brian O'Driscoll (c), centre
Paddy Wallace, centre
Fergus McFadden, centre
Tommy Bowe, wing
Keith Earls, wing
Andrew Trimble, wing
Rob Kearney, full-back
Geordan Murphy, full-back

I know what side I'd rather have, the 2007 vintage forwards were immense, also you had players in their prime. The truth is that Eddie O'Sullivan massivley under achieved when you compare what Declan Kidney has had to work with, and take a thought of the players that have retired from the 2011 vintage as well, it seems that Declan has a lot of work on his hands.

i think kidney has a stronger hand to play by some distance in terms of personnel particularly in the pack. mal o kelly would be an asset perhaps. Wallace was a class act but he has been replaced with another class act in SOB

Eddie was a better backs coach but to be fair he had the benefit of a younger faster drico and darcy not to mention the fast pass of Stringer and the distribution of Rog.

Having said that Ireland have enough decent backs to make a reasonable back line at international level. We just a) do not have the coaching expertise to fashion a potent back line or b) do not really want to use the backs at all save one man carries up the middle.

We will learn which in the Autumn internationals.

Seriously, you think you have a better front row now than what you had in 2007 ?

i do mate honestly.

our scrum for the last few years has been solid given the notable exception of when ross went off injured v england this year. We got absolutely mangled beyond belief no issues. however that was one game and has not been common place at all. it was used as a smokescreen by some to deflect from far greater issues in terms of an impotent back line and a one dimensional game plan

Horan was not a great scrummager but he was wily beyond belief. Hayes was simply a rock, again not a great destructive scrummager but he could survive against all but the top echelon of international props. He also never got injured. If he did we would have been even worse off than the current ireland minus mike ross. Simon Best and Bryan Young were not international class at all.

We had the ability under Eddie during his good days to win games with limited ball due to the potency of our backline and some devastating set piece moves so it was not such an issue.

I would take a front row of Healy, Best and Ross over Horan, Flannery and Hayes.

Healy is so good for his age, his scrummaging has come on leaps and bounds and he is immense in the loose. I've always thought Best and Flannery was a coin toss, but I think I'd have Best because he's been one of our consistent performers over the last few years. Hayes could hold his own in the scrum against average opposition but fell short against the elite. We all know that he added a lot to our lineout, but primarily his job is to stop the scrum from going backward. I'm no fan of Ross but he keeps the scrum up and we have been even able to use it as a weapon. He can be lazy around the field though and he doesn't carry much.

I've fond memories of all those players and they done us all proud, but I still think we have a stronger front row now than in 2007.

lord are you one of the army of welsh folks who do not rate cian healy?

I was not sure until the last few seasons Still prone to a brainfart but he is a serious player and still very young in prop years.

Our current pack is far better than the 2007 one, no question Dowlias. In terms of depth and the starting 8. Only the 2nd row could be considered weaker but not by that much.

At half back in both era's we had a brilliantly functioning provincial half back partnership. It's just that Kidney won't pick the Leinster duo together, whereas O'Sullivan slotted the Stringer/ROG partnership straight into the Ireland team.

In the backs we had better individuals in 2007. But O'Sullivan again, tended to slot the Leinster 5 directly into the Irish team and had them playing a similar brand of attacking rugby that they played week in week out. Kidney has not gotten anything like that out of the extremely potent Leinster backline he has at his disposal. In fact he doesn't seem to use any set plays whatsoever and doesn't really allow them to run from deep. Kicking the ball away is the default choice when they get the ball for Ireland. Then defend defend defend. It's not working. It hasn't for years. But we're still doing it.

Feckless Rogue wrote:Our current pack is far better than the 2007 one, no question Dowlias. In terms of depth and the starting 8. Only the 2nd row could be considered weaker but not by that much.

Im not sure I agree with that.

I think that except for maybe Healy and Stephen Ferris the rest were better in 2006-2007.

The only players I see getting into the 2007 pack are Heaslip an SOB, and lets face it Easterby and Leamy were no mugs, seriously I do not know why you think your pack is better now, I never, never ever saw the 2007 vintage get schooled like the recent one, also it's not that I do not rate Cain Healy it's just that I don't think he is as good as all you lot think he is.

Stag, Healy, Best, Ross are certainly better scrummagers than Horan, Flannery, Hayes. In open play we've lost Flannery's ball carrying but gained Healy's.

Ryan/POC are fairly even with the old DOC/POC.

Ferris, Heaslip, O'Brien are a better trio overall than Easterby, Leamy, Wallace.

Wallace and POC were world class. Maybe Flannery. The rest of the Irish pack were not. We still have POC. Wallace was replaced by another class player, SOB. Best is better than Flannery in the scrum and in defence but a weaker lineout thrower and ball carrier. It's quite even between those two. The current Irish pack is definitely stronger in my opinion.

But neither pack were juggernaut's that could crush opposition test teams. The main difference between the two era's is what the Irish team are doing when they have the ball. The mid 00's team had the ambition and confidence to attack and turn even limited ball into points. The current Irish team are completely devoid of confidence or ambition or idea's when they have the ball.

Anyway they were just far more of a joy to watch back then is all I was originally intending to say at the start of this thread. Didn't mean to get into the player by player comparison's argument.

red_stag wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Our current pack is far better than the 2007 one, no question Dowlias. In terms of depth and the starting 8. Only the 2nd row could be considered weaker but not by that much.

Im not sure I agree with that.

I think that except for maybe Healy and Stephen Ferris the rest were better in 2006-2007.

I think the current crop are much better and are more of a "pack" in terms of how they work together

Right, your mad, you are all mad, to even suggest that Healy, Best and Ross are better scrummagers than Horan, Flannery and Hayes. You lot are using selective memories I always remember Ireland using their forwards to grind the opposition into the dust, I remember them doing it to Wales more often than not. It is no secret that Ireland are struggling in the forwards at the moment and you lot all think that you are better blessed now than you were back then ? Seriously Mike Ross is nowhere near John Hayes was and Healy is nowhere near where Horan was, I will give you the point on Flannery but Eddie O'Sullivan had Shane Byrne's best years as well. Your forwards from your "golden age" were miles better than the one's you have now, that is why they were called the "golden age".

With the Irish underperforming and the Welsh overperforming it'll be interesting when they meet in the middle.

Who said anything about the Welsh over performing and the Irish under performing ?

LordDowlais wrote:Who said anything about the Welsh over performing and the Irish under performing ?

Er, I think I just did. In the post above your one.

Yes, but relevance does it have to this thread?

LordDowlais wrote:Right, your mad, you are all mad, to even suggest that Healy, Best and Ross are better scrummagers than Horan, Flannery and Hayes. You lot are using selective memories I always remember Ireland using their forwards to grind the opposition into the dust, I remember them doing it to Wales more often than not. It is no secret that Ireland are struggling in the forwards at the moment and you lot all think that you are better blessed now than you were back then ? Seriously Mike Ross is nowhere near John Hayes was and Healy is nowhere near where Horan was, I will give you the point on Flannery but Eddie O'Sullivan had Shane Byrne's best years as well. Your forwards from your "golden age" were miles better than the one's you have now, that is why they were called the "golden age".

Lord, Healy is easily a better scrummager than Horan. Horan kind of cheated his way out not losing a scrum rather than actually scrummage. He was very poor. Best is obviously a better scrummager than Flannery, I've never even heard the biggest Flannery fan contest that one. And Mike Ross is definitely a better scrummager than Hayes. Both hold up the scrum most of the time. Ross can be destructive on a good day whereas Hayes never was. Individually and collectively they are better in the scrum. Ireland have had no big problems at scrum time when those three are on the field, whereas in the past we often did with the older three. I'm actually amazed you think otherwise. I'm not sure you have a very deep knowledge of Irish rugby to be honest.

It's true that the Irish pack used to beat up the Welsh up front. That was our standard Welsh gameplan and it invariably worked nearly all the time. But the Welsh pack was very soft back then. Not the super fit, mobile and defensively brilliant pack they have now. It was the logical way to attack them. back then. It was a poor pack. We did not try this tactic against England, Scotland, Italy, France or any of the sh nations. I think you're understanding is coloured by the fact that we dominated your team up front regularly. When playing teams with bigger packs we relied heavily on our backline.

Feckless, I remember the Irish front three being a nasty bunch of bleeders though, they were rough and tough and knew what to do when needed, surely I am not imagining this, come on, it was even Munster’s trademark throughout the HC glory years, their pack was feared around Europe and the Thommond raw when the pack got going was something to behold. Seriously, if you ask anyone outside Irish rugby I would swear they would say the same.

I don't want to get into an argument feckless Rogue, I am Irish but you have to admit the one big problem at scrum time they had was at twickenham I know Court had a shocker but Ross wasnt doing great either. But thats not to take away from them, id have them anyday over the old front row, Hayes was just a lump who did little, Horan, im not even gonna say anything about him, although Rory best is the better player, Flannery was a very good thrower, but this front row IS better then the old one, it is hard to see otherwise.

drsambo1928 wrote:I don't want to get into an argument feckless Rogue, I am Irish but you have to admit the one big problem at scrum time they had was at twickenham I know Court had a shocker but Ross wasnt doing great either. But thats not to take away from them, id have them anyday over the old front row, Hayes was just a lump who did little, Horan, im not even gonna say anything about him, although Rory best is the better player, Flannery was a very good thrower, but this front row IS better then the old one, it is hard to see otherwise.

Ross was carrying an injury after the very first scrum. Thats why our scrum was bad when he was there

Also didn't Eddie O'Sullivan have the best years out of Paddy Wallace ?

LordDowlais wrote:Right, your mad, you are all mad, to even suggest that Healy, Best and Ross are better scrummagers than Horan, Flannery and Hayes. You lot are using selective memories I always remember Ireland using their forwards to grind the opposition into the dust, I remember them doing it to Wales more often than not. It is no secret that Ireland are struggling in the forwards at the moment and you lot all think that you are better blessed now than you were back then ? Seriously Mike Ross is nowhere near John Hayes was and Healy is nowhere near where Horan was, I will give you the point on Flannery but Eddie O'Sullivan had Shane Byrne's best years as well. Your forwards from your "golden age" were miles better than the one's you have now, that is why they were called the "golden age".

horan better than healy? Always nice to have abit of humour on the threads

Even in the first scrum he didnt do that well.