Ireland: Last night I watched....and......

First topic message reminder :

Hi guys,

Have a week off this week so eventually ran out of things to do and catch up on so I popped on to youtube to watch the entire HCup final again of this year and the guy who put it up I've learned has also put up a whole load of other full games. DELIGHTED.

So....last night I watched the game against Italy on St.Patricks Day 2007 in Rome. The championship was in the balance and we needed to win then put on a score to beat France on points difference after they had beaten us in Croke part thanks to Vincent (the devil Clerc) but had lost to England later.

So we went out and played the game, knowing we had to win by a fair amount, their 10 kept them in touch with a couple of drop goals but we were scoring some tries and got either 2 or 3 in the first half before the flood games opened and we won by a very large margin but did conceed two tries.

Either way France later on got a controversial score late in the game against Scotland and Bernard Laport or however you say his name went mad and there probably hasn't been a championship lost by so little since.

I remember sitting in the middle of the Harcourt Street stunned by the whole thing just as I had been on Hill16.

Life goes on.

The point of this entire article is I wanted to throw a bit of a then and now light on the whole thing, so with that in mind, there were a few things I noticed that I had forgotten about or rather knew but my opinion was reinforced.

1) Stringer was unreal. The guy's pass was (is??) so fast. He didn't make a break himself or kick at all but his service was lightening. In 2007 the new rules helping defences hadn't been introduced yet so quick ball was golden ball. I couldn't help but think how useful that pass could be to the present day Ireland although for obvious reasons was able to notice that between 2008 and 2010 he would have been a much less useful player.

2) ROG. While he had a very bad day kicking from the tee he was outstanding out of hand. His kicking pinned the Italians back a fair few times. Also it was great to see him varying the kicks, there were long spirals, hastily kicked punts, slick little grubbers, he had the whole array of tricks. Even then he stood far too deep but the outside backs were immense.

3) The outside backs were immense. Darcy in particular made 3 or 4 clean linebreaks. Was excellent at seeing the space around him and offloaded for the first try of the day out of the tackle, it was a beaut of a try too going through Darcy, Hickie, BOD and finally to Dempsey. The depth they ran at, the offloading, the invention and creativity was simply beautiful to behold, particularly when Italy got a bit tired after 30 minutes and again after 55 or 60.
Watch the tries from that game and you will see what I mean. This is in stark contrast to the Ireland of 2011 and 2012.

4) Hickie. We miss a guy who has that out and out speed and finishing ability as well as left boot. I believe Earls is one who could fill this role. Others have mentioned Conway, Zebo and Gilroy. We have outside backs who are dangerous but I haven't seen one who can do it the way or as regularly as Denis. I believe one or more of these guys could make it but it will take a lot of hard work. The thought of Gilroy and Bowe or Gilroy and Conway on the wings is a nice thought.

5) Easterby was a giant. He was our Ferris in that match. He just looked so much more powerful than everyone else, he and David Wallace were making mince meat out of players. I felt he deserved some recognition.

6) There was no Paul O'Connell and between Easterby, Mick O'Driscoll and Donnacha O'Callaghan the lineout went to sh1t. One of the few times you'd be able to say that of Ireland in 2007 but there was no POC, I have no idea where O'Kelly was because Hogan came on. This was a blip in my opinion normally our lineout was excellent in those days. What would you call the Irish lineout now? Not excellent anyways.

7) Horan was a mess. He was/is a very mobile player but he really didn't do well in the scrums, for someone who was so mobile he carried poorly and a lot of the time was seen on the wing. I've never really been a Horan fan if I am honest with you, but he had a poor game in this one.

8) BOD was heavy. There seems to be an awful lot of analysis that goes on with O'Driscoll's weight and speed, explosiveness and agility. In this game he was quick and agile but he was heavy. You could see it whenever the camera looked at him he was not a small guy. I thought this would be interesting in light of the 2011 admission that he went and lost some weight and the being that was the 2009 flanker/centre O'Driscoll who scored a bag full of tries in both the 6Nations and the HCup not to mention a very important one against Australia to get a draw.

So that is my relatively pointless article but thought it was a blast down memory lane and although we came up short and I will never in my life forget sitting in an empty Hill16 or sitting in the middle of Harcourt Street after the French had robbed us, it is nice looking back at some of those golden players, Easterby, Horgan, Hickie, Stringer, Wallace; looking at our tactics then as opposed to now and how we played the game.

One thing is for sure this game showed Ireland at their attacking best; the outside backs and the backrow in particular just went beserek, that doesn't really happen with Ireland anymore when we go beserek we normally do it in defensive situations. England vs Ireland 2011 was a good attacking display but were there any others in the Kidney era you can think of? A lot of set piece moves using O'Leary at the back of lineouts and scrums, these plays have long since been figured out and are less used due to the rule change.

Last day of the week off so will see what else I can find.

Fingers crossed for the Argies this evening. a sign that good things come to those who wait. How I will Pichot, Contempomi and now Hernandez could play in this one.

Dont worry about flying off the handle, people usually assume its a wum when they see something they don't agree with.

First of all I have to ask. Are you really saying that it is "PC" of me to "insult a great team". How is that sitting on the fence.

Anyway, of course Ireland may have gone on to win. However they may equally have gone on to lose. What I would bet my house on though is that had we beaten France that those exact scorelines would not have happened.

We may have won or lost. As you say "we will never know". All we know is that like so many times before we failed to achieve something that was very much within our capabilities.

My gut feeling tells me that had it not been against France it would have been against somebody else.

Look at how the provinces go about their rugby in a clinical business like way. There's a match against Agen or Glasgow or Exeter - they won't get in a flap about it. They just go and win.

By the same token I wasn't at all surprised to see Ireland beat Australia and lose to Wales in the RWC. They sadly just don't seem able at international level to just go out and do what they know how to. Thats going write back to the late 1990s.

"My gut feeling tells me that had it not been against France it would have been against somebody else."

Fair enough. It's a very sad (I hope that wasn't too insulting or angry, Sir) state of affairs when one has such little faith in ones team.

It appears to are too harsh on the team to appease "fans" from other countries. I've seen it happen over a number of years now...(dating back to the BBC)..

But that's OK. No harm, no foul and sorry again. But I still think your opinion is misguided at best.

Duigers, I think its more that as a teenager I got used to how Munster simply did their business - in a ruthless fashion. It was unacceptable to even contemplate losing in Thomond Park and as for travelling out to England, South of France into the Welsh Valleys you expected to win every match fans and players alike.

Ireland have never set themselves those same high standards mentally. Sorry if you don't agree. Its not about appeasing anyone. We are capable of more internationally and the players and fans deserve more.

I refuse to accept that our inability to beat France and New Zealand, our constant failure at the Rugby World Cup and our almost constant "bad luck" is all just a coincidence.

stag, Munster losing so many finals/semi finals could also be considered to be bottling it. It took Munster a long time to win a final.

The way that I look at it is that most of our players have to play above themselves to achieve exceptional results. I don't think they are bottling it.

You also need a bit of luck sometimes.

drsambo1928 wrote:Mind you, if O'Connell or (Useless) O'Callaghan got lifted for the kick off by France a grand slam could have been on the cards, if it wasnt for that, EOS would be viewed in a much more positive light. Saying this is highly disrespectful to England, Scotland and Italy because well any one of them could have beaten ireland, and a grand slam wouldnt have automatically happened with a win over france.

The tone of this post doesn't help (no need for the Useless O'Callaghan comment).

It rather interesting to see lots of Munster fans saying how great to have DOC back at the weekend.

I don't know how the image of O'Sullivan would have changed - I for one thought that if we were not missing BOD & Peter Stringer, we might have had a better result that day (no disrespect to Shane Horgan or Boss intended).

Sin é wrote:stag, Munster losing so many finals/semi finals could also be considered to be bottling it. It took Munster a long time to win a final.

The way that I look at it is that most of our players have to play above themselves to achieve exceptional results. I don't think they are bottling it.

You also need a bit of luck sometimes.

I'd agree with you there Sin but the problem we have at the moment is the players aren't even achieving average results,our play goes from sublime one game to ridiculous for the next 7 there doesn't seem to be a middle ground.

Duigers wrote:"My gut feeling tells me that had it not been against France it would have been against somebody else."

Fair enough. It's a very sad (I hope that wasn't too insulting or angry, Sir) state of affairs when one has such little faith in ones team.

It appears to are too harsh on the team to appease "fans" from other countries. I've seen it happen over a number of years now...(dating back to the BBC)..

But that's OK. No harm, no foul and sorry again. But I still think your opinion is misguided at best.

Compared to your 160 posts of whinging/crap that nobody wants to read? Stag is one of the better posters on here.

They can't play above themselves every week. And a Paul O'Connell or Stephen Ferris playing above themselves is a different kettle of fish to a Mick O'Driscoll or Peter O'Mahony.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Duigers wrote:"My gut feeling tells me that had it not been against France it would have been against somebody else."

Fair enough. It's a very sad (I hope that wasn't too insulting or angry, Sir) state of affairs when one has such little faith in ones team.

It appears to are too harsh on the team to appease "fans" from other countries. I've seen it happen over a number of years now...(dating back to the BBC)..

But that's OK. No harm, no foul and sorry again. But I still think your opinion is misguided at best.

Compared to your 160 posts of whinging/crap that nobody wants to read? Stag is one of the better posters on here.

Bad day at the office rors?

Nope, pretty good day today Sin, thanks.

Sin é wrote:Munster losing so many finals/semi finals could also be considered to be bottling it. It took Munster a long time to win a final.

The way that I look at it is that most of our players have to play above themselves to achieve exceptional results. I don't think they are bottling it.

You also need a bit of luck sometimes.

Thats actually a really interesting take on it that I certainly hadn't considered. I'll stick to my gun attack on the "Golden Generation" but thats a good post Sin É

Stag, Munster didn't bottle the 'hand of back' game by all accounts, yet Ireland apparently bottled the games Mike Phillips scored the illegal try/Ferris got yellow carded.

I think Leicester were simply a better side than us in that match. We learned from it and the next time we met them (the quarter finals away against them) we repaid the favour.

Ireland have now lost to Wales three times on the trot and have massive problems winning against France and New Zealand.

They didn't deserve to win any of those games Sin and weren't the better side.

I'm not saying that they were better - but Munster were never called bottlers - they were just not good enough. Same with Ireland now, they are not bottlers - they are just not good enough to beat Wales or New Zealand.

Edit: with regard to France - I think we are nearly there. Just one bad decision was the issue (Sexton taking a (difficult) kick at goal rather than going down the line). I wonder if BOD was there would he have let Sexton attempt the kick?

NZyes but no disrespect to Wales I think we have the potential to be a superior team to them.

Thomond wrote:NZyes but no disrespect to Wales I think we have the potential to be a superior team to them.

We're close enough to Wales. Just they have had a bit of luck in the last couple of games (not the world cup one - they deserved that).

Sin é wrote:

Thomond wrote:NZyes but no disrespect to Wales I think we have the potential to be a superior team to them.

We're close enough to Wales. Just they have had a bit of luck in the last couple of games (not the world cup one - they deserved that).

Luck in Cardiff certainly, although it's worth remembering that Phillips' illegal try wasn't scored at the death and Ireland had plenty of time to hit back without managing to do so. I expect you to slate a certain Mr Paddy Wallace in response

Luck in NZ no, as you say that one was firmly deserved/better side won.

Luck in Dublin well yes a bit, Bradley Davies should've seen red and Ferris' tackle shouldn't have even been a penalty let alone a yellow. But at the rate Wales were physically battering Ireland there's nothing to say we wouldn't have pushed on to secure the win even without those favours the officials did us. North's try was scored when we were still at 14 and Wales were already in the process of making big inroads into the Irish half when Ferris' misjudged (by the ref) tackle occurred. For all we know Ireland might've legitimately infringed and given 1/2p the chance to win it anyway had play been allowed to continue.

In short three wins on the trot very rarely occur on luck alone and without the element of the winners being the better side. I do not believe this to be one of those rare instances, out of the three the Cardiff game alone pended decisively on luck.

I wouldn't have called Ireland bottlers stag. I don't agree with that. They were often favourites against Scotland, Italy and Wales and routinely went out and did a job on them. They also kept beating England no matter which side was favourites. It was just that France kept beating us. And in the event that they went on to lose one game too, they always had a better points differential. Maybe France were just a better team. And for whatever reason, EOS and the Irish side just couldn't formulate a game plan to counteract the enormous damage they could inflict on us, usually in the first half. It doesn't mean they were bottlers. In fact they did what was expected of them in nearly every 6 Nations game.

For the high win rate Ireland have had in the 6 Nations, it's actually incredible that it was only translated into one solitary championship win. It's a bit of an anomaly. Teams that have won less games have won more championships. The one we really deserved to win was 2007. And I think we were genuinely a bit unlucky that year.

Feckless Rogue wrote:For the high win rate Ireland have had in the 6 Nations, it's actually incredible that it was only translated into one solitary championship win. It's a bit of an anomaly. Teams that have won less games have won more championships. The one we really deserved to win was 2007. And I think we were genuinely a bit unlucky that year.

I'd agree with this, but the assertion / assumption that we would have probably lost anyway is misguided at best. It's just giving your team a kick in the nakers they don't deserve.

Feckless Rogue wrote:For the high win rate Ireland have had in the 6 Nations, it's actually incredible that it was only translated into one solitary championship win. It's a bit of an anomaly. Teams that have won less games have won more championships. The one we really deserved to win was 2007. And I think we were genuinely a bit unlucky that year.

Very true. Ireland for many of the recent years were 2nd (sometimes 3rd). Unfortunately, England/Wales/France would swing from no loss seasons to 2 loss seasons and seesaw around us for the top place all too often. But at the same time, only the decade before it was a case that Ireland were fighting off the wooden spoon on an annual basis. When we were in that place, we would have bitten peoples hands off to finish 2nd. And it took that last generation of players a long time to break through that psychological ceiling that we deserved to be thinking about winning a competition rather than being happy to just be part of the competition. Remember when Keith Wood was coming out with statements akin to Roy Keane. Remember when it was controversial of ROG to effectively say that Irish players could be better than English players.

I wouldn't be overly harsh on what EOS and that generation of players managed to do over that period of time. While it didn't win silverware, they brought us as a nation kicking and screaming into a position where we could start to genuinely consider ourselves to be challengers. Kidney, for all his detractors, gave the final push to the next level. But at the elite level, the bar is always rising, and competitors are always improving. And Ireland haven't kept pace with change, possibly relying too much on what was in place get the grand slam and maybe not taking the positive steps to look beyond and take the Irish mindset well and truly to the next level.

Jesus what comotion I caused with the Ireland France lost grand slam comment, thanks for sticking up for me Red Stag. And Duigers, its just a thread, relax will you, theres no need to get so angry, there are plenty of other things to get angry about in this world, saying that Irelands matches against the remaining teams would not have been formalities is not a thing to get angry over.

Glad to see this created a load of discussion. What do people think on the other points in the OP?

Stringer has and always will have the best pass in Europe as long as he plays, probably not far from the world's best. Biggest difference between him and others. He is pass step, others are step,pass. ROG was a major componnent of that backline's success he stood deep yes but he was a major attcking force in it Think Zebo and Gilroy have the Hickie gene in them. Gilroy is probably more like him at the moment, Zebo has a way to go yet, but are making some errors but both are young. Gilroy in his 3rd season now. Zebo's 2nd.


If you'll excuse me I'm off to Lansdowne Road now!

I would have said Conway is most like Hickie. He certainly is the closest when it comes to the speed Denis had anyway.

Possibly, Zebo and Gilroy have the kind of magic touch with the ball and while I think Conway does have similar talents he still has to show it regularly.

LordDowlais wrote:Also didn't Eddie O'Sullivan have the best years out of Paddy Wallace ?

Now I know yer takin de pish.

Thomond wrote:Possibly, Zebo and Gilroy have the kind of magic touch with the ball and while I think Conway does have similar talents he still has to show it regularly.

I think those two are better ball players, well Zebo certainly, but Conway is the quickest of the three and that was Hickie's main strength, not his ball playing ability.