Ireland: Last night I watched....and......

First topic message reminder :

Hi guys,

Have a week off this week so eventually ran out of things to do and catch up on so I popped on to youtube to watch the entire HCup final again of this year and the guy who put it up I've learned has also put up a whole load of other full games. DELIGHTED.

So....last night I watched the game against Italy on St.Patricks Day 2007 in Rome. The championship was in the balance and we needed to win then put on a score to beat France on points difference after they had beaten us in Croke part thanks to Vincent (the devil Clerc) but had lost to England later.

So we went out and played the game, knowing we had to win by a fair amount, their 10 kept them in touch with a couple of drop goals but we were scoring some tries and got either 2 or 3 in the first half before the flood games opened and we won by a very large margin but did conceed two tries.

Either way France later on got a controversial score late in the game against Scotland and Bernard Laport or however you say his name went mad and there probably hasn't been a championship lost by so little since.

I remember sitting in the middle of the Harcourt Street stunned by the whole thing just as I had been on Hill16.

Life goes on.

The point of this entire article is I wanted to throw a bit of a then and now light on the whole thing, so with that in mind, there were a few things I noticed that I had forgotten about or rather knew but my opinion was reinforced.

1) Stringer was unreal. The guy's pass was (is??) so fast. He didn't make a break himself or kick at all but his service was lightening. In 2007 the new rules helping defences hadn't been introduced yet so quick ball was golden ball. I couldn't help but think how useful that pass could be to the present day Ireland although for obvious reasons was able to notice that between 2008 and 2010 he would have been a much less useful player.

2) ROG. While he had a very bad day kicking from the tee he was outstanding out of hand. His kicking pinned the Italians back a fair few times. Also it was great to see him varying the kicks, there were long spirals, hastily kicked punts, slick little grubbers, he had the whole array of tricks. Even then he stood far too deep but the outside backs were immense.

3) The outside backs were immense. Darcy in particular made 3 or 4 clean linebreaks. Was excellent at seeing the space around him and offloaded for the first try of the day out of the tackle, it was a beaut of a try too going through Darcy, Hickie, BOD and finally to Dempsey. The depth they ran at, the offloading, the invention and creativity was simply beautiful to behold, particularly when Italy got a bit tired after 30 minutes and again after 55 or 60.
Watch the tries from that game and you will see what I mean. This is in stark contrast to the Ireland of 2011 and 2012.

4) Hickie. We miss a guy who has that out and out speed and finishing ability as well as left boot. I believe Earls is one who could fill this role. Others have mentioned Conway, Zebo and Gilroy. We have outside backs who are dangerous but I haven't seen one who can do it the way or as regularly as Denis. I believe one or more of these guys could make it but it will take a lot of hard work. The thought of Gilroy and Bowe or Gilroy and Conway on the wings is a nice thought.

5) Easterby was a giant. He was our Ferris in that match. He just looked so much more powerful than everyone else, he and David Wallace were making mince meat out of players. I felt he deserved some recognition.

6) There was no Paul O'Connell and between Easterby, Mick O'Driscoll and Donnacha O'Callaghan the lineout went to sh1t. One of the few times you'd be able to say that of Ireland in 2007 but there was no POC, I have no idea where O'Kelly was because Hogan came on. This was a blip in my opinion normally our lineout was excellent in those days. What would you call the Irish lineout now? Not excellent anyways.

7) Horan was a mess. He was/is a very mobile player but he really didn't do well in the scrums, for someone who was so mobile he carried poorly and a lot of the time was seen on the wing. I've never really been a Horan fan if I am honest with you, but he had a poor game in this one.

8) BOD was heavy. There seems to be an awful lot of analysis that goes on with O'Driscoll's weight and speed, explosiveness and agility. In this game he was quick and agile but he was heavy. You could see it whenever the camera looked at him he was not a small guy. I thought this would be interesting in light of the 2011 admission that he went and lost some weight and the being that was the 2009 flanker/centre O'Driscoll who scored a bag full of tries in both the 6Nations and the HCup not to mention a very important one against Australia to get a draw.

So that is my relatively pointless article but thought it was a blast down memory lane and although we came up short and I will never in my life forget sitting in an empty Hill16 or sitting in the middle of Harcourt Street after the French had robbed us, it is nice looking back at some of those golden players, Easterby, Horgan, Hickie, Stringer, Wallace; looking at our tactics then as opposed to now and how we played the game.

One thing is for sure this game showed Ireland at their attacking best; the outside backs and the backrow in particular just went beserek, that doesn't really happen with Ireland anymore when we go beserek we normally do it in defensive situations. England vs Ireland 2011 was a good attacking display but were there any others in the Kidney era you can think of? A lot of set piece moves using O'Leary at the back of lineouts and scrums, these plays have long since been figured out and are less used due to the rule change.

Last day of the week off so will see what else I can find.

Fingers crossed for the Argies this evening. a sign that good things come to those who wait. How I will Pichot, Contempomi and now Hernandez could play in this one.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Right, your mad, you are all mad, to even suggest that Healy, Best and Ross are better scrummagers than Horan, Flannery and Hayes. You lot are using selective memories I always remember Ireland using their forwards to grind the opposition into the dust, I remember them doing it to Wales more often than not. It is no secret that Ireland are struggling in the forwards at the moment and you lot all think that you are better blessed now than you were back then ? Seriously Mike Ross is nowhere near John Hayes was and Healy is nowhere near where Horan was, I will give you the point on Flannery but Eddie O'Sullivan had Shane Byrne's best years as well. Your forwards from your "golden age" were miles better than the one's you have now, that is why they were called the "golden age".

Lord, Healy is easily a better scrummager than Horan. Horan kind of cheated his way out not losing a scrum rather than actually scrummage. He was very poor. Best is obviously a better scrummager than Flannery, I've never even heard the biggest Flannery fan contest that one. And Mike Ross is definitely a better scrummager than Hayes. Both hold up the scrum most of the time. Ross can be destructive on a good day whereas Hayes never was. Individually and collectively they are better in the scrum. Ireland have had no big problems at scrum time when those three are on the field, whereas in the past we often did with the older three. I'm actually amazed you think otherwise. I'm not sure you have a very deep knowledge of Irish rugby to be honest.

It's true that the Irish pack used to beat up the Welsh up front. That was our standard Welsh gameplan and it invariably worked nearly all the time. But the Welsh pack was very soft back then. Not the super fit, mobile and defensively brilliant pack they have now. It was the logical way to attack them. back then. It was a poor pack. We did not try this tactic against England, Scotland, Italy, France or any of the sh nations. I think you're understanding is coloured by the fact that we dominated your team up front regularly. When playing teams with bigger packs we relied heavily on our backline.

Also, we have the same front row as we had then, Gethin Jenkins, Matthew Rees, and Adam Jones we had a back three of Ryan Jones, Andy Powell and Martyn Williams, and a second row paring of Ian Gough and Luke Charteris/Robert Sidoli, so I don't think our pack was that much weaker.

Sorry Dowlias - you might be right about our all around pack being better in 2007 (I'm really not sure) but to say that Horan was better than Healy is pretty laughable. We never had a brilliant scrum in the days of Horan and Hayes, we considered it a job well done if those 2 got parity with the opposition. I think a front row of Healy, Best and Ross is better than Horan, Flannery and Hayes - bare in mind that when Ross gets injured or goes off our scrum gets pasted - as we saw against England in this years 6N.

Artful_Dodger wrote:Sorry Dowlias - you might be right about our all around pack being better in 2007 (I'm really not sure) but to say that Horan was better than Healy is pretty laughable. We never had a brilliant scrum in the days of Horan and Hayes, we considered it a job well done if those 2 got parity with the opposition. I think a front row of Healy, Best and Ross is better than Horan, Flannery and Hayes - bare in mind that when Ross gets injured or goes off our scrum gets pasted - as we saw against England in this years 6N.

So what you are saying in an around about way is that the Munster pack was just a myth ? I have seen countless Munster games in the HC glory days and Irish games with the same pack that tells me different, I cannot ever remember them getting beaten, in fact I remember them getting the better of their opposition more often than not.

In fairness, I always felt the Munster pack members who also played for Ireland played better for Munster, the Munster gameplan suited them and Munster have all this motivational stuff flying around so i guess that gets them fired up.

Dowlias, Munster dominated club packs. EOS didn't believe they could do that to the larger test packs of the likes of England, France, South Africa etc. So he had a much more backs oriented approach. I've seen him explain this position in interviews.

I actually think some Munster players disagreed with him and wanted to bring the Munster approach to Ireland. But nonetheless EOS always maintained a backs oriented style against nearly all opposition.

So no, the Munster pack was not a myth. But the Munster approach wasn't adopted by EOS. Maybe he was wrong but I think he was right.

Kidney adopted the Munster style in 2009. In the totally risk averse ELV year of '09 this worked. Helped by an inspired O'Driscoll and no injuries. Since the tackle laws changed in 2010 this type of rugby is not as effective.

Anyway, I still think that Eddie O'Sullivan had the better team and achieved less.

LordDowlais wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Sorry Dowlias - you might be right about our all around pack being better in 2007 (I'm really not sure) but to say that Horan was better than Healy is pretty laughable. We never had a brilliant scrum in the days of Horan and Hayes, we considered it a job well done if those 2 got parity with the opposition. I think a front row of Healy, Best and Ross is better than Horan, Flannery and Hayes - bare in mind that when Ross gets injured or goes off our scrum gets pasted - as we saw against England in this years 6N.

So what you are saying in an around about way is that the Munster pack was just a myth ? I have seen countless Munster games in the HC glory days and Irish games with the same pack that tells me different, I cannot ever remember them getting beaten, in fact I remember them getting the better of their opposition more often than not.

Munster pack was so dominant around 2006-2008 cause their back 5 (second row and back row) were the best around. O'Gara kicked the corners like a master and O'Connell was imperious in the lineout. The backrow which included David Wallace in his prime and Axel Foley and Alan Quinlan was also the best around and beat everyone else at the breakdown. Even when they were winning Heineken Cups Munster's front row was considered their weakness. Go for as many lineouts as possible through O'Gara and avoid scrums. This was most evident when Leicester Tigers became the first team to beat Munster at Thomond Park in 2007 in a game in which they targetted Munster's scrum and did so very effectively. Bare in mind that was in between Munster's two HC victories. Ireland's front row has never been our strength and was always considered our achilles heel in the days of Hayes and particularly Horan.

Well i like the way EOS tried to implement an off loading highly skilled game but sometimes you just have get in a dog fight to win.

LordDowlais wrote:Right, your mad, you are all mad, to even suggest that Healy, Best and Ross are better scrummagers than Horan, Flannery and Hayes. You lot are using selective memories I always remember Ireland using their forwards to grind the opposition into the dust, I remember them doing it to Wales more often than not. It is no secret that Ireland are struggling in the forwards at the moment and you lot all think that you are better blessed now than you were back then ? Seriously Mike Ross is nowhere near John Hayes was and Healy is nowhere near where Horan was, I will give you the point on Flannery but Eddie O'Sullivan had Shane Byrne's best years as well. Your forwards from your "golden age" were miles better than the one's you have now, that is why they were called the "golden age".

A man in an alternative universe

Healy is a better scrummager than Horan
Best is a better scrummager than Flannery
Ross is a better scrummager than Hayes

The problems now are for different reasons
Less power in the 2nd row - unless POC and Ryan both play
Hayes had qualities elsewhere that Ross doesn't possess
Simon Best provided genuine cover for both props that Court cant (because he cant play TH - inspit of being selected to do so)

But purely as a scrummaging front row the current crop is easily superior

O.k I will concede, but can somebody please answer me this, when was the last time you saw an Ireland pack in trouble like against England ? And I do not want to here things like it only happened because of this and that because this is more or less the same pack that were getting mullered by the Ospreys in the Rabo final.

Healy was a very poor scrummager up to the world cup this year - in the 6Ns against Italy in 2011 he gave away 5 penalties.

One thing Horan & Hayes had going for them - they lasted the 80 mins every game. Ireland's attack is poorer now - under Eddie Ireland used the lineout to set up attacks. Its not good enough to do that now. Our scrum can still only get by even if the current front row are better scrummagers, its still only a marginal improvement. You'd never be happy to see a scrum and think Ireland are going to score here like you'd see when the lineout was at its best with Hayes lifting POC & Flannery's bullets.

LordDowlais wrote:O.k I will concede, but can somebody please answer me this, when was the last time you saw an Ireland pack in trouble like against England ? And I do not want to here things like it only happened because of this and that because this is more or less the same pack that were getting mullered by the Ospreys in the Rabo final.

There was never a time that an Ireland team was mullered in the scrum like against England but equally when did the pack under EoS dominate a scrum like against Scotland in the 6N or Oz at the WC?

Your second point is completely wrong the pack that were mullered by the O's had no Healy,Best,Ryan,DoC or Ferris playing and just like against England Mike Ross got injured very early on.

Sin é wrote:Healy was a very poor scrummager up to the world cup this year - in the 6Ns against Italy in 2011 he gave away 5 penalties.

One thing Horan & Hayes had going for them - they lasted the 80 mins every game. Ireland's attack is poorer now - under Eddie Ireland used the lineout to set up attacks. Its not good enough to do that now. Our scrum can still only get by even if the current front row are better scrummagers, its still only a marginal improvement. You'd never be happy to see a scrum and think Ireland are going to score here like you'd see when the lineout was at its best with Hayes lifting POC & Flannery's bullets.

I'd agree with this but I think that's more down to the way the game is played these days than anything else,there are very few teams that score off attacking scrums any more instead if a team gets dominance they keep pushing until the ref awards a penalty.I think eventually they'll have to remove full penalties for scrum infringements otherwise it will continue to be used as a way to milk penalties instead of a means of restarting play which was the original intention.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:O.k I will concede, but can somebody please answer me this, when was the last time you saw an Ireland pack in trouble like against England ? And I do not want to here things like it only happened because of this and that because this is more or less the same pack that were getting mullered by the Ospreys in the Rabo final.

There was never a time that an Ireland team was mullered in the scrum like against England but equally when did the pack under EoS dominate a scrum like against Scotland in the 6N or Oz at the WC?

Your second point is completely wrong the pack that were mullered by the O's had no Healy,Best,Ryan,DoC or Ferris playing and just like against England Mike Ross got injured very early on.

I am pretty sure most of them played some part in the final.

LordDowlais wrote:O.k I will concede, but can somebody please answer me this, when was the last time you saw an Ireland pack in trouble like against England ? And I do not want to here things like it only happened because of this and that because this is more or less the same pack that were getting mullered by the Ospreys in the Rabo final.

But the only reason that England destroyed Ireland was because Kidney insisted on playing a LH at TH.
Compounded by a 2nd row player (DOC) who didn't do his job.
It only happened because of poor selection.

The Leinster pack in the final is more of less the Irish pack - now you are really having a laugh.
The only player from the Irish front five who played in that game was Ross and he only played for 15 mins !
That has got to be one of the silliest point I have seen made in a long time

As has been alluded to elsewhere Flannery and Hayes brought qualities to the lineout that was better then.
However as a scrummaging front three they were inferior

LordDowlais wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:O.k I will concede, but can somebody please answer me this, when was the last time you saw an Ireland pack in trouble like against England ? And I do not want to here things like it only happened because of this and that because this is more or less the same pack that were getting mullered by the Ospreys in the Rabo final.

There was never a time that an Ireland team was mullered in the scrum like against England but equally when did the pack under EoS dominate a scrum like against Scotland in the 6N or Oz at the WC?

Your second point is completely wrong the pack that were mullered by the O's had no Healy,Best,Ryan,DoC or Ferris playing and just like against England Mike Ross got injured very early on.

I am pretty sure most of them played some part in the final.

Check it out for yourself and you'll see that you're wrong.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:O.k I will concede, but can somebody please answer me this, when was the last time you saw an Ireland pack in trouble like against England ? And I do not want to here things like it only happened because of this and that because this is more or less the same pack that were getting mullered by the Ospreys in the Rabo final.

There was never a time that an Ireland team was mullered in the scrum like against England but equally when did the pack under EoS dominate a scrum like against Scotland in the 6N or Oz at the WC?

Your second point is completely wrong the pack that were mullered by the O's had no Healy,Best,Ryan,DoC or Ferris playing and just like against England Mike Ross got injured very early on.

I am pretty sure most of them played some part in the final.

Check it out for yourself and you'll see that you're wrong.

+1. Credibility shot there Dowlais.

I could have swore that Healy played some part at least.

O.k I have done some digging and the only one's that were not playing apart from the non Leinster ones was Healy, here you are take a look:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18169721

LordDowlais wrote:O.k I have done some digging and the only one's that were not playing apart from the non Leinster ones was Healy, here you are take a look:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18169721

That's quite a spin you've put on it.

And SOB sorry.

To put it another way the only ones who played in both games were Ross and Heaslip,Ross went off after 10-15 minutes.

So we've gone from "more or less the same pack", to Heaslip.

I remember being quite bitter about 2007 for a number of reasons:

1. Steve Walsh doing everything he could to allow France beat us in Croke Park, and suceeding...........after telling the papers prior to the game he thought Ireland had gotten away with a lot in their opening game with Wales..........thanks Steve...............

2. Not playing the Irish & French games at the same time - thereby making a mockery of the championship................which seems to be still devalued to this day in favour of Grand Slams anyway. I've never understood why the Six Nations Championship, when it's won, is usually seen as "not worth winning" when a team has missed out on a grand slam................

3. The try wrongly given to France in the last minute against scotland - by an Irish TMO official

My mind will not be changed, Eddie O'Sullivan had the better side and achieved nothing, sod all, diddly squat, nowt.

John Cregan wrote:3. The try wrongly given to France in the last minute against scotland - by an Irish TMO official

What nonsense.

John Cregan wrote:I've never understood why the Six Nations Championship, when it's won, is usually seen as "not worth winning" when a team has missed out on a grand slam................

I agree. A good point.

LordDowlais wrote:My mind will not be changed, Eddie O'Sullivan had the better side and achieved nothing, sod all, diddly squat, nowt.

Well no point debating so,but it's safe to say that the majority of people disagree.

red_stag wrote:

John Cregan wrote:3. The try wrongly given to France in the last minute against scotland - by an Irish TMO official

What nonsense.

That's news to me?? And was also mentioned by the OP. ........i had thought it was universally accepted that the try was incorrectly awarded. Should that prove not to be the case, i will happily relieve myself of some of the bitterness i am still harbouring from that year!!

John Cregan wrote:

red_stag wrote:

John Cregan wrote:3. The try wrongly given to France in the last minute against scotland - by an Irish TMO official

What nonsense.

That's news to me?? And was also mentioned by the OP. ........i had thought it was universally accepted that the try was incorrectly awarded. Should that prove not to be the case, i will happily relieve myself of some of the bitterness i am still harbouring from that year!!

I though it was a try,I'd have to watch it again to be sure and can't cos I'm at work but I'm fairly sure it was close but you couldn't blame the TMO for giving it.

ASLS,

I think Dowlais is talking out his backside about the scrum but overall I think we had a better team in 2006-2007 than now.

I would actually say that apart from the scrum what is better?

Darcy and O'Driscoll were probably the best centres in Europe, the same with our locks, our backrow at the moment are all ball carriers - we had a better balance to it, I don't think I need to remind anyone how good our lineout was and I think that Denis Hickie and Shane Horgan were better than Tommy Bowe and Andrew Trimble. Stringer had a faster pass than Reddan, Murray, Boss or O'Leary and ROG was playing excellently in the prime of his late 20s.

John Cregan wrote:

red_stag wrote:

John Cregan wrote:3. The try wrongly given to France in the last minute against scotland - by an Irish TMO official

What nonsense.

That's news to me?? And was also mentioned by the OP. ........i had thought it was universally accepted that the try was incorrectly awarded. Should that prove not to be the case, i will happily relieve myself of some of the bitterness i am still harbouring from that year!!

Apologies for the blunt reply John.

The video footage was inconclusive but the referee said to the TMO "Im happy with the try but can you see if there's any reason I can't award the try".

So the TMO was not checking the grounding but rather if there was a knock or or if it was held up.

Had Joubert said "Can't see a blooming thing, is it a try" then Ireland would have won the 6 Nations.

red_stag wrote:ASLS,

I think Dowlais is talking out his backside about the scrum but overall I think we had a better team in 2006-2007 than now.

I would actually say that apart from the scrum what is better?

Darcy and O'Driscoll were probably the best centres in Europe, the same with our locks, our backrow at the moment are all ball carriers - we had a better balance to it, I don't think I need to remind anyone how good our lineout was and I think that Denis Hickie and Shane Horgan were better than Tommy Bowe and Andrew Trimble. Stringer had a faster pass than Reddan, Murray, Boss or O'Leary and ROG was playing excellently in the prime of his late 20s.

Imo our players are far better and that will be seen when Kidney leaves and if we replace him with a coach that uses their strengths properly.Man for man I would only pick PoC,Wallace (and that's close),Stringer (again close,I think Murray has the potential to be better once he's used properly),BoD,D'Arcy and Hickie as better players than the current team.
We also now have a bench that can bring meaningful impact to a game,EoS never had that (and never tried to develop it in fairness)

I obviously have no evidence other than my own beliefs about the talent currently available but I honestly think we will see a massive turnaround in form if a new coach comes in.

Cheers Red Stag,
I never even saw the "try" at the time.............i remember i was playing golf that day and and was getting score updates on both games by a playing partner!! Never watched the highlights i was so sick...................

LordDowlais wrote:O.k I have done some digging and the only one's that were not playing apart from the non Leinster ones was Healy, here you are take a look:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/18169721

So if we ignore Best, Healy, the 2nd row and Ferris and we also take into account Ross only played 15 mins the Leinster pack against Osprey's was equatable with the Irish pack. Especially bearing in mind the discussion concerns scrummaging

Thanks for the laugh anyway

The first rule when digging yourself into a hole is to stop digging

Artful_Dodger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:Sorry Dowlias - you might be right about our all around pack being better in 2007 (I'm really not sure) but to say that Horan was better than Healy is pretty laughable. We never had a brilliant scrum in the days of Horan and Hayes, we considered it a job well done if those 2 got parity with the opposition. I think a front row of Healy, Best and Ross is better than Horan, Flannery and Hayes - bare in mind that when Ross gets injured or goes off our scrum gets pasted - as we saw against England in this years 6N.

So what you are saying in an around about way is that the Munster pack was just a myth ? I have seen countless Munster games in the HC glory days and Irish games with the same pack that tells me different, I cannot ever remember them getting beaten, in fact I remember them getting the better of their opposition more often than not.

Munster pack was so dominant around 2006-2008 cause their back 5 (second row and back row) were the best around. O'Gara kicked the corners like a master and O'Connell was imperious in the lineout. The backrow which included David Wallace in his prime and Axel Foley and Alan Quinlan was also the best around and beat everyone else at the breakdown. Even when they were winning Heineken Cups Munster's front row was considered their weakness. Go for as many lineouts as possible through O'Gara and avoid scrums. This was most evident when Leicester Tigers became the first team to beat Munster at Thomond Park in 2007 in a game in which they targetted Munster's scrum and did so very effectively. Bare in mind that was in between Munster's two HC victories. Ireland's front row has never been our strength and was always considered our achilles heel in the days of Hayes and particularly Horan.

You make it soudn like Munster were completely about kicking to the corners which is bull. Were they reliant on them and use them a lot yes (when you have one of the better packs in tournament history it would be stupid not to) but they did develop some cohesive backline play, more so in 2008 but they did score some great tries through their backs. Not all about the forwards.


We are better at scrum time now but Flannery was beter overall than Best. We miss Hayes massively in the lineout so I wonder is there much difference between him and Ross? Both had weaknesses in their games. We utilised our talent better before is the main difference between Ireland then and now.

We utilised our talent better before is the main difference between Ireland then and now.


100% spot on

dublin_dave wrote:We utilised our talent better before is the main difference between Ireland then and now.


100% spot on

Never a truer word ...........................

Mind you, if O'Connell or (Useless) O'Callaghan got lifted for the kick off by France a grand slam could have been on the cards, if it wasnt for that, EOS would be viewed in a much more positive light. Saying this is highly disrespectful to England, Scotland and Italy because well any one of them could have beaten ireland, and a grand slam wouldnt have automatically happened with a win over france.

drsambo1928 wrote:Mind you, if O'Connell or (Useless) O'Callaghan got lifted for the kick off by France a grand slam could have been on the cards, if it wasnt for that, EOS would be viewed in a much more positive light. Saying this is highly disrespectful to England, Scotland and Italy because well any one of them could have beaten ireland, and a grand slam wouldnt have automatically happened with a win over france.

I had to read that twice, it's such shoite.

They did play each other and England got tonked and Scotland and Italy were beaten. Not sure what the France game has anything to do with it, but as I type this I realize you are on a trolling mission, so carry on old bean...

Duigers how is he trolling?

He is just saying that what happened was we lost to France and went onto win against England, Scotland and Italy.

He is also saying (quite correctly) that had we beaten France why assume we would have definitely beaten Scotland, Italy and England.

Circumstances would have changed and the same results would not be guaranteed.

red_stag wrote:Duigers how is he trolling?

He is just saying that what happened was we lost to France and went onto win against England, Scotland and Italy.

He is also saying (quite correctly) that had we beaten France why assume we would have definitely beaten Scotland, Italy and England.

Circumstances would have changed and the same results would not be guaranteed.

Again, Stag true to form. I understand you. Because if we would have beaten France, England Italy and the rest would have gained extra "powers" to beat us because of that? They would have found the "extra 10%"? Maybe England would have beaten us by 35 odd points instead of the other way around? Sorry, dude, full of poopie. But go ahead an appease such blatant tosh to show that you are a "balanced" poster... true to form...

Sound Duigers, Im not being balanced. Ive picked a side and it aint your one buddy.

Ireland don't play well as favourites and I have no doubt that England and Scotland would have been much more difficult to win if they were out to stop a Grand Slam.

You can pick your nose for all I care, buddy.

Let me get this right. You are saying that, in some weird way, Ireland's opponents would have tried harder to beat to beat Ireland if Ireland had won against France?

Tosh.

We lost the GS that year (still lost it) by the narrowest of margins. Try in the last minute.

It's quite easy to see you have probably never touched a rugby ball in your life. Have you? Seriously?

You are reading too many papers / books about the game to have a true view.

When rugby players play as any kind of a serious level, they give 100%. We played Italy on the last day and put 55 on them. Are you saying they would have pulled out all the stops to stop us getting a GS???

Wales couldnt in 2009. Why not? Werent they arsed?

Tosh.

And do you honestly think England would have been capable of stopping Ireland that day in Croke Park?

Or are you suggesting that Ireland would have been beaten by Scotland cause "Ireland dont play well as favourites?"

I'd expect this from certain wums, but you have stolen the biscuit today in your attempt to appear balanced and fair.

Sometimes too much PC....

Duigers, my apologies.

We would have won the games by the exact same scoreline. Nothing whatsoever would have changed.

Its not like when England came to Dublin in 2001 or 2011 looking for a Grand Slam we weren't motivated to beat them more.

As for playing it I never played for Munster or Ireland no but I been playing away and am still happily enjoying the grass roots game, thanks very much

Duigers wrote:Or are you suggesting that Ireland would have been beaten by Scotland cause "Ireland dont play well as favourites?"

I'd suggest that Ireland MIGHT have lost to Scotland because we don't play well as favourites. In fact don't you remember 2001 when we beat Italy, France, hammered Wales and beat England but lost to Scotland - the match that cost us the Grand Slam.

For a long time we were chokers pal. Still are in many ways not helped by Deccie continually using the old "play up the opposition" trick. We need to not be afraid of winning.

Look Stag, sorry to fly off the handle but what you are suggesting is quite insulting to a great team who were very unlucky not to pick up a grand slam- perhaps the unluckiest ever.

Question: Is is beyond the realms of possibility that we would have beaten Scotland by more than 1 if we were looking for a GS?

Would England have been beaten by 60 or 70 that day instead of 30??

Would Italy have stopped us with their 1st competitive win against us in, forever??

We will never know, but jaysus man, to basically suggest we would have CHOKED is going a little down the PC route.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Duigers - the rest of the posters here are managing to debate without getting angry and resorting to petty names and unfounded accusations. Please do the same.

Dear Moderator,

I am not angry at all. Neither have I called anyone petty names (please point out where I have). If you are moderating people's mood or states of mind I would be worried. I have said nothing insulting to the chap whatsoever.