Who is the Best Fly Half of All Time?

A fly-half is crucial to a team's game plan.

The fly-half is usually the one who calls set moves, or makes tactical decisions. Fly-halves need to be quick-thinking in a game, such is the speed at which a situation can deteriorate, and need to be able to communicate with all the backs and adapt them to the attacking or defending situation.

Who in your opinion was the complete fly half? And who are the obvious candidates that we have missed?

Thanks,
E

Dan Carter would have got my vote if he'd been there

I have added him in Davie and turned on vote cancelling if you want to change!

Voted Carter, never saw Bennett or John so couldn't vote for them. Most fly half's tend to be either a kicking fly half or a running fly half where as Carter is a master of both. His proformances in the 2005 Lions Series are about the best I've ever seen from a back.

Being too young to have seen most of the others play, fo me it's a choice between Wilkinson and Carter. I've gone for Wilinson (200-2003 version) who for me had the complete package (brilliant pass, could run or kick, best defensive 10 ever), as well as the ability to deliver the goods under pressure.(how often has he made the pressure kick or drop goal?) Also the way his presence inspired England at the last WC was something special.

OK, so I'm biased, so sue me

Out of the modern era generation, Carter certainly gets my pic.
But honorary mentions also for Hugo Porta, and Barry John for his team work with Gareth Edwards who together formed one of the most devastating half-back partnerships ever.

I requested Carter to be added and changed my vote for him when it became available. Those who mention St. Johnny's defensive qualities have a very good point though

I think that dan carter could certainly be the best fly half of all time, especially if NZ win the world cup this year.

had to go for Carter, although it was a close thing, the brilliant Phil Bennett would have been my 2nd choice!

One person missed off list Cliff Morgan played in a time when flankers were allowed to peel off scrums quickly and still he didnt get caught

While Carter is an exceptional player,did he really win tournaments and games by himself(excluding the 05 Lions series) I think you could argue that this NZ team would probably be close to their best without him.I would pick him though.

I can quite happily say that the answer to this one is impossible.

But... Tony Ward was behind Ollie Campbell for a lot of his career, so while I'm not voting in this, if and Irish out-half from that era is on the list, it's the wrong one.

Dan Carter is excellent but a product of the age and surrounded by the best team in the World. Jonathan Davies took a welsh team with a limited pack to within a whisker of a grand slam and to 3rd place in a WC. He also had his best years in league, where I consider he is the best player ever to pull on the GB shirt. Put Jiffy in the 1987 All Blacks and you would have seen some of the best rugby ever from a fly half. Genius.

Good call on Davies Glas, I still remember feeling so sorry for him when Wales toured NZ in 88 - so much talent, and so little support.

Barry John used to win games on his own, he was a demi god in Wales. He got the "King" nickname from the New Zealand press after the 1971 Lions series, he scored 30 out of the 48 Lions points scored during the 4 tests. with the Lions getting 3 wins and a draw. You only have to look at him on youtube to see how special he was.

I can see that, however he quit whilst he was ahead and had a good side around him. Jiffy had an indifferent side around him.

I am old enough to have seen all the nominees play, and fortunate to have seen most of them play n the flesh as opposed to on TV.

All had something very special in their game - one or two approach being the "complete" flyhalf with everything in the locker.

Jiffy would/could/SHOULD have become the perfect 10 had he not moved on to the pro game thanks to the disgraceful attitude of the WRU at the time and the huge amounts of money being thrown at a hugely promising YOUNG welsh side at the time...................but we are where we are, he went North and had a great career there.

I cant really judge who is the best on the list - so my vote goes to the player who quickened the pulse the most when he received the ball: Mark Ella

This list is a bloody joke. You have Grant Fox in and no sign of Carters mentor the brilliant ANDREW MEHRTENS!!!

I was a bit suprised not to see Neil Jenkins name in the list. He was a kicking machine. Ronan O'Gara is also up there i feel.

That said, no-one ever set a match alight like Mark Ella, he was electric and its a massive shame that alot of the younger generation got to see just how good he was.

Only an Irishman would say ROG should be on a list of all time great fly halfs.
Eric Elwood maybe...

Do you think that ROG is bad mckay? Not many 10's have his amount of caps and points. Not the best at defence but his kicking is some of the best i have ever seen. If you want a 10 that will keep a team in their 22 and build pressure then there are not too many better than ROG.

eirebilly wrote:.............. If you want a 10 that will keep a team in their 22 and build pressure .............

If I am picking a "World's Greatest", then yes I do want that, but he must be able to stand flat too, to beat a man on an outside step, beat a man on the inside step, he must have wonderful acceleration, be able to pass off either hand with equal facility. He must also be exciting to watch, capable of the unexpected. I want superman! In short, NOT ROG or Jenks or others of their ilk (good players and wonderful servants to their respective sides though they were).

Sorry ML, i thought the question was "Who is the Best Fly Half of All Time?" which is why i felt that ROG and Neil Jenkins deserved a place there. They may not be, the most exciting players but they are incredibly efficient at what they did.

Wilkinson is there and i would'nt consider him the most attacking 10 ever. Incredibly solid defence and superb kicking has given him pride and place as one of the greatest 10's ever.

We will have to disagree on Wilkinson too then. I think he fits into the Jenks/ROG mould. A good player - possibly even great by National standards - but shouldnt be considered as top 10 EVER in the world game. His defence was brave and solid, his penalty kicking was good (not exceptional - the stats prove that), his kicking from hand under pressure has never been better than poor, his decision making too has let him down often.

He is a wonderful guy, honest and a good pro, but he played behind a very powerful England pack for most of his International career, something neither ROG nor Jenks enjoyed.

I am glad that such a nice guy gets so many plaudits AND the rewards of fame and fortune - but I sincerely believe that he has been over-rated in terms of his position on the World stage.

I would not call Wilkinson over-rated, even as an Irishman. He is not the most attacking player but that does not mean that he is over-rated. His all round game more than compensates for that. I would certainly rate him as one of the best ever 10's.

For me, i think that Ella was the best, only just edging out Mehrtens. Carter is 3r, Wilkinson 4th and Lynah 5th.

The most complete rugby player i have ever seen is John Eales followed closely by Richie McCaw.

I look at that list and laugh ,English of the top of my head Bev Risman,Richard Sharp,Stuart Barnes,all had better all Round games than Wilkinson.Wilkinson was a better Goal kick and possibly the best FH tackler of the bunch.Of course he played for that TEAM too.Wales without Phil Bennett or Cliff Morgan.Ireland without Mike Gibson,Ollie Campbell,Jackie Kyle.NZ without Merthens,Botica,or Carlos Spencer.NO french what about,Martine,Albaledejo,Lescaboura,Guy Camberbero,and son Lilian.NONE of those is the Worlds greatest,that can only be a matter of opinion.BUT if you are going to have a poll.At least include all the suspects.Incidentally I have seen ALL the above play bar Kyle and I could`nt say who was best.

eirebilly wrote:Sorry ML, i thought the question was "Who is the Best Fly Half of All Time?" which is why i felt that ROG and Neil Jenkins deserved a place there. They may not be, the most exciting players but they are incredibly efficient at what they did.

They're also indisputably not the best outhalf of all time. O'Gara could never have a claim on that. A good player- but not a complete player.

I also think including Wilkinson on the list is definitely a mistake. An efficient player, but not the best ever.

And where, oh where, is Stephen Larkham?

Never mind Larkham,where is Dan Carter's mentor the brilliant Andrew Mehrtens???

Mehrts is god wrote:Never mind Larkham,where is Dan Carter's mentor the brilliant Andrew Mehrtens???

That is the second time you have said that in just a handful of posts! Are you related to him?

Somebody said Mehrtens is playing lower league French rugby. Is that true? If do put him down in the legends column.

Andrew Merthens,asked the NZ selectors if he featured in there future plans BEFORE.Taking up a post with Harlequins then a second division side,he got them promoted.[Nick Evans replaced him].He then repeated the Process with Toulon getting them promoted.Johnnie Wilkinson replaced him].Went on to another French side and got them promoted.He was going to retire,but another French side asked him to sign with them for a year.Not sure whether it was this year or next his stint finishes.Arguably he was Worlds best circa 1995-2003 that includes Jonny Wilkinson.

Glas a du wrote:Somebody said Mehrtens is playing lower league French rugby. Is that true? If do put him down in the legends column.

He got Racing Metro promoted to Top 14 in 09/10 then they opted to let him go so he moved to Béziers in Federale 1 for this 10/11, not bad for a 38 yo.

I had a look at their website, they're looking good for promotion back to pro D2. And they have 2 kiwis, 2 Englishmen, 2 Georgians, a Saffa and a Samoan in their squad.

70's - Phil Bennett
80's - Jonathan Davies
90's - Michael Lynagh
00's - Dan Carter

Carter by a country mile in the modern era,

Honestly tho I think Cliff Morgan was the best I have seen would rate him over Jiffy and Barry.

For those saying Wilkinson doesn't deserve to be on the list, remove your bias for a moment. He redefined the role of fly half for the professional era and has only really been out-performed on that score by Carter (who has everything Wilkinson had in his prime plus a better running game).

Of the amateur era players, I'm too young to have seen Morgan or John (other than a few clips) but my Dad always reckoned Morgan was one of the two best players he saw as a kid (Mike Gibson being the other), and that Bennett was a better all-round 10 that Barry John was (i.e. better tactical player and team man, while with similar individual skills).

Only saw Jiffy in the flesh playing RL for Great Britain v Australia (Wembley, 94-95) where we won an epic match after Shaun Edwards was sent off in the first half, and Jiffy scored our only try of the game at the far corner of the pitch from where I was.

dummy_half wrote:For those saying Wilkinson doesn't deserve to be on the list, remove your bias for a moment. He redefined the role of fly half for the professional era and has only really been out-performed on that score by Carter (who has everything Wilkinson had in his prime plus a better running game).
..............

Sorry - I am one of those saying Wilkinson doesnt deserve to be on the list, and not because of Bias ( I am Welsh, yet my vote went to an Australian - Mark Ella), he simply isnt a good enough all round fly half to be considered one of the greats of the game. And PLEASE, stop with the "he redefined his position" hyperbole. How did he do that? What was so "new" about his game?

VERYfew people "redefine" the way the game is played. Of the flyhalves I have seen in following the game avidly since 1971, of only one could it possibly be argued that he changed the way the game is played................Mark Ella.

As I have said there is NO one player it is just a matter of opinion,Johnny Wilkinson was a points scorer,and a devastating tackler.his tactical kicking and distribution nothing special.Merths.in his last All Blacks game,came off the benchstone cold.on less than a minute. A searing break,a crosskick rockococo was pushed out at the corner.Quade Cooper had done that,the media circus would have called it genius .Bog standard Fh play going back to the ark.

Fill in:

The best is pretty straightforward - Carter. Picking the second best is more of a challenge - possibly Sexton at the moment following that HC final performance.

I'd have Sexton 3rd behind Cooper. He's been freakish at times this season. And he's even made some tackles

How come this replaced my original poll? I thought 606v2 was supposed to have more relaxed moderators?

Anyway why has Ronan O'Gara been missed off this list?













































































Joking.

He's awful!!!

ruggerbyplayer wrote:How come this replaced my original poll? I thought 606v2 was supposed to have more relaxed moderators?

Alright, chill! I didnt notice it was current - genuine mistake. If you want to set up a new one, i will leave it alone (although the result will be the same as this one!)

No need to go about moderation - we were trying to help!

Barry John, Phil Bennett, Mark Ella and Jonathan Davies were all great attacking outside halves, but I didn't feel I could vote for any of them as I've never seen them play over eighty minutes. Of all the tens I've seen playing full rugby matches, the best is Dan Carter. It's true that he's benefitted from playing in not-half-bad New Zealand sides, but his game management and decision-making are superb and he has that magic ability possessed only by the truly great players - the ability to make the game seem ridiculously easy.

Clearly it's Din Cirter.

I had to go for John Rutherford, as you missed Gregor Townsend off your list.

I had the pleasure of watching Phil Bennett in his pomp, I was at the Llanelli 9:3 NZ game and the Barbarians victory in Cardiff the same year. Benny was something else, he kicked goals, had a great tactical awareness and a devastating break. He made the players around him look good!
He didn't tackle a lot though, he tended to defend in a deep position to return kicks (like Dan Parks does for Scotland). He frequently played 80mins, turned in a MOM performance scoring and creating trys for fun and didn't have an opponent lay a hand on him all game!
He was a tough little guy but I am not sure whether he would have made a modern 10 with the physical demands of the position now. Perhaps he would be a Shane Williams type wing as his pace was electric.
A little suprised with some of the names on the list and no room for 100 cap Stephen Jones, his contribution is ofter underestimated. You don't get 6 Lions test caps without being a pretty special player. I suspect he may not get the appreciation he deserves until he hangs up his boots. He will be missed without doubt.

Enforcer wrote:
Who in your opinion was the complete fly half? And who are the obvious candidates that we have missed?

Morgan the Magnificent, please allow me to vote for him.

Thanks