Half time, discussion.

http://www.pro12rugby.com/matchcentre/table.php

So we are now half way through the league season, so I thought it would be a good time to discuss the season so far, who has impressed so far who hasn't who finds themselves behind at half time and will come out in the second half of the season etc etc

So far this season the teams that have impressed me most are Ospreys and Connacht.
Ospreys I expected to be in the top 5 but I didn't expect them to be sitting on top, and being top for most of the year, Scrum V all predicted the top 4 would be Leinster, Ulster, Glasgow and Munster. Ospreys were predicted to not make the top 4, but currently sit top of the league.

Connacht - are in the top 6, 4 points behind Leinster and 4 points above their main rivals for a top 6 place the Scarlets , have a number of top players and are playing really well. Top 6 may have sounded ambitious at start of season but at the minute it looks a realistic target and will prob go down to the wire with Scarlets.

Been a little dissapointed with Leinster and Cardiff Blues,

Leinster - have not had a bad season, and I guess that its because of our high expections of them that 5th seams a little dissapointing, have had injuries and dispite being criticised for not playing free flowing rugby they are joint top try scorers.

Cardiff Blues - some predicted they would be play off contenders, that seamed optimistic, however I think most would have thought they would be higher than 9th, is top 7 place out of reach or a would a good second half of the season get them there?

Anyway whats the half time report for your team say, and how has impressed/not impressed you thus far this season?

I think other than the ospreys the rest of the teams have regressed. I don't think Glasgow are quite as good as last season albeit they are still in Europe. Ulster and Leinster are definitely not while Munster are inconsistent.

Scarlets maybe I think have improved and we may see a bit more of that in the 2nd half of the season and Connacht are grinding out wins. Overall I believe the quality of the league is worse than previous years probably due to the provinces not being as good

My team.. the Dragons. Well it's been hard to judge. Good pre-season wins were followed by close defeats when the Pro12 started and coincided with a horrendous injury list which has made it difficult to judge if we are actually progressing. With players slowly coming back we have now won 4 in a row however 3 of those wins were against lesser opposition (with respect to Zebre). If and that's a big if, we manage to beat the blues at home then grab a LBP at the liberty then we could start to get some confidence and cohesion.

However this is the Dragons and we could lose from now until the end of season forcing me to question whether I will ever buy a season ticket again, i'll hate rugby then around June I'll have forgot all that and enter the new season with blind optimism.

Connacht have surprised me. They are staring to become a very difficult team to beat even in away matches now. Also I agree the Ospreys are a surprise. I thought they would struggle this season but are by far the best of the Welsh.

Ospreys have improved as have Connacht

Glasgow and Munster holding steady

Leinster and Ulster regressing

Cardiff flatter to deceive and the rest simply not good enough

It's been disappointing in terms of attacking. The top team, Ospreys has 28 tries. In the English league 6 teams have a higher tally than that and Northampton have 42. 6 teams in the French league also have more tries than the PRO12's top team. Toulon have 47. Not good stats for a league that traditionally has more attractive attacking rugby.

Leinster are shockingly plodding and predictable. It's hard to watch actually. Ulster are even worse, because at least Leinster look they're trying hard, which is not always true of Ulster. I wouldn't have a huge amount of confidence in the coaches that have been employed in these two provinces. Munster started poorly but have gotten better. I'd say they're the Irish side with the best chance of winning the title. But I wouldn't put money on it. At least Connacht are playing well and winning more compared to their usual standards.

From an Irish point of view it's been mostly disappointing and frustrating really. There have been a lot of injuries though. And the quality of our foreign signings has nosedived due to the bigger money in France.

I think it'll be a barren year for the Irish but they'll bounce back next year. I think Ospreys will beat Glasgow in the final.

FecklessRogue wrote:It's been disappointing in terms of attacking. The top team, Ospreys has 28 tries. In the English league 6 teams have a higher tally than that and Northampton have 42. 6 teams in the French league also have more tries than the PRO12's top team. Toulon have 47. Not good stats for a league that traditionally has more attractive attacking rugby.

.

To be fair the Aviva sides do get to play London Welsh who give away 3 more tries a match than Trevisio who are bottom on the Pro12.

Having a joke side in your league helps everyone elses try tally

Glasgow have been steady. The biggest disappointment has been not getting over the line in one of the Toulouse fixtures. Progress in Europe was always going to be a focus. As it stands Glasgow should make the Pro12 play-offs but their fans will probably see that as par.

Edinburgh have been ever so slightly better this season but still underwhelming. Defence is probably a 6/10 rather than 4/10 but the attack has been largely stiffled in the process. Europe has been ok, but we're in the second tier and as far as I can tell, no-one actually cares. Fans are generally disappointed with what they are seeing, and the signings made by Solomons have largely not been a success.

geoff999rugby wrote:

FecklessRogue wrote:It's been disappointing in terms of attacking. The top team, Ospreys has 28 tries. In the English league 6 teams have a higher tally than that and Northampton have 42. 6 teams in the French league also have more tries than the PRO12's top team. Toulon have 47. Not good stats for a league that traditionally has more attractive attacking rugby.

.

To be fair the Aviva sides do get to play London Welsh who give away 3 more tries a match than Trevisio who are bottom on the Pro12.

Having a joke side in your league helps everyone elses try tally

Geoff,

Quite a fair point really the stats would be interesting if you took Treviso and LW out of the equation and see what looks like then. Is there a 'perceived' weaker team in the French league that other teams are racking points up against?

Actually now you mention Glasgow, I have been a little dissapointed with their European form, I can add Ospreys to that as well.

Both going great in the League but I hoped that Glasgow this season would put thier league form into European performances, so far its missing but iI hope they make it out of thier group, and maybe but a run in Europe.

Bearing in mind how many tries Saints put past Treviso in Europe, I would argue they are just as weak as LW.

Glasgow need to improve their front row to get to the next level.

Ditch one of their 3 wingers and maybe a bit of backrow cover and spend the money on a top TH

LondonTiger wrote:Bearing in mind how many tries Saints put past Treviso in Europe, I would argue they are just as weak as LW.

One game proves nothing - Treviso have drawn with Leinster, lost to Glasgow by 8 points and to Munster by 11 points

London Welsh have only once lost by less than 20 points and that to London Irish.
Treviso occasionally put in a performance, London Welsh never put in a performance - there is a big difference.

geoff999rugby wrote:Glasgow need to improve their front row to get to the next level.

Ditch one of their 3 wingers and maybe a bit of backrow cover and spend the money on a top TH

I think the return of Mike Cusack could be the solution on that front. He is a destructive tighthead of the highest order.

If anything it's at hooker where Glasgow suffer by comparison to the top sides. Hall is getting on a bit, MacArthur is lively but underpowered and Brown has potential but is pretty green. Cusack and Murray at TH and Reid and Grant at LH isn't a bad place to be, albeit not quite at the level of Toulon, Toulouse, Saints etc.

Standulstermen wrote:I think other than the ospreys the rest of the teams have regressed. I don't think Glasgow are quite as good as last season albeit they are still in Europe. Ulster and Leinster are definitely not while Munster are inconsistent.

Scarlets maybe I think have improved and we may see a bit more of that in the 2nd half of the season and Connacht are grinding out wins. Overall I believe the quality of the league is worse than previous years probably due to the provinces not being as good

So rather than sides improving, it is a case of the provinces being weaker, the Irish arrogance in our league holds no bounds.

Which sides do you feel have improved and in what areas would you say they are now better?

Do you believe the Leinster and Ulster are still as strong as they have been over the last few years,if so can you explain why you feel they are still as strong but aren't performing (imo) or getting the same results as they are used to in either the league or Europe.

With the DC coming into act the regions will only get better, after the last few seasons losing players hand over fist the welsh regions are now getting a lot more stability, the Ospreys will have the likes of Paul James back next season, and with another season under the belt they will be even better off next season, Glasgow have been making steady progress for a few seasons now and are stil not quite there yet but they wil be even better next year, there is already talk of the likes of Jamie Roberts and Owain Williams coming back to Wales next season, all the Welsh regions have improved on last season, how you cannot see this is a mystery.

some further reading

http://www.thescore.ie/munster-half-term-report-2-1838189-Dec2014/

http://www.thescore.ie/connacht-half-term-report-1837834-Dec2014/

LordDowlais wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I think other than the ospreys the rest of the teams have regressed. I don't think Glasgow are quite as good as last season albeit they are still in Europe. Ulster and Leinster are definitely not while Munster are inconsistent.

Scarlets maybe I think have improved and we may see a bit more of that in the 2nd half of the season and Connacht are grinding out wins. Overall I believe the quality of the league is worse than previous years probably due to the provinces not being as good

So rather than sides improving, it is a case of the provinces being weaker, the Irish arrogance in our league holds no bounds.

Truth hurts Leinster and Ulster are both significantly weaker but they are still going to finish above Scarlets and Blues.
Ulster where in the range of 3rd - 6th best placed side in Europe last year. Right now they are in the mid teens at best.


Other than Ospreys and Connacht who has improved in your opinion?

Every Welsh region HAS improved on last season, what part of this do you not understand ?

The Ospreys are top of the league, and that is with a raft of injuries, all the other regions have recruited well, they are performing a lot better than last season, and now with a little bit of stability being brought back into the game in Wales the regions will get stronger, when the dual contracts get sorted and with players signing long contracts with their regions, not only will the Welsh regions match the Irish provinces, but in my belief they will start to emulate them as well, and that is the truth, and yes I suppose it does hurt, but not for me.

LordDowlais wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:I think other than the ospreys the rest of the teams have regressed. I don't think Glasgow are quite as good as last season albeit they are still in Europe. Ulster and Leinster are definitely not while Munster are inconsistent.

Scarlets maybe I think have improved and we may see a bit more of that in the 2nd half of the season and Connacht are grinding out wins. Overall I believe the quality of the league is worse than previous years probably due to the provinces not being as good

So rather than sides improving, it is a case of the provinces being weaker, the Irish arrogance in our league holds no bounds.

So commenting that we are weaker this year than last, even though we are still just 5 points of the leader, is arrogance? That chip on your shoulder just keeps getting bigger. As far as the Ulster team is concerned it's an obvious truth. We have had a bad season so far with injuries mounting up, and a head coach that seems out of his depth, but that still doesn't mean we won't make the top 6, we will, and we are still in with a shout of a top 4 place. Next year will be an improvement, but until then.......

LordDowlais wrote:Every Welsh region HAS improved on last season, what part of this do you not understand ?

So far they haven't when you compare results now and at the same point in last season. 3 have better squads and coaching staff but have been very poor, Blues and Scarlets in particular.

Munchkin, it is not me with the chip boi bach, I am not saying that the only reason why the league is the way it is, is because the Irish teams are not playing as well, both Glasgow and Ospreys are where they are because they are steadily improving, not because of the failures of the Irish teams.

The Saint wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Every Welsh region HAS improved on last season, what part of this do you not understand ?

So far they haven't when you compare results now and at the same point in last season. 3 have better squads and coaching staff but have been very poor, Blues and Scarlets in particular.

I am not just talking about performance, I am on about the whole package, players resigning, more squad depth, more stability and the rest.

The Saint wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Every Welsh region HAS improved on last season, what part of this do you not understand ?

So far they haven't when you compare results now and at the same point in last season. 3 have better squads and coaching staff but have been very poor, Blues and Scarlets in particular.

PRW is an improvement. Joining up with the other WP clubs is an improvement. Taking Dodger to the fecking cleaners is an improvement.

LordDowlais wrote:Munchkin, it is not me with the chip boi bach, I am not saying that the only reason why the league is the way it is, is because the Irish teams are not playing as well, both Glasgow and Ospreys are where they are because they are steadily improving, not because of the failures of the Irish teams.

It's true that Glasgow have been steadily improving, but I wouldn't claim the same for Ospreys. This season the Ospreys have certainly improved, but that improvement wasn't anticipated based on last seasons results. It was a nice surprise

I'm not following your logic though. In what way does Glasgow/Ospreys improving help prove that the Provinces haven't regressed? Especially Ulster, and Leinster? Both teams obviously have this season for various reasons.

funnyExiledScot wrote:As it stands Glasgow should make the Pro12 play-offs but their fans will probably see that as par.

Well... I can't help thinking that if we win the league this year, I'll be generally satisfied. Not 'over the moon', but satisfied.

For me, Glasgow have to be aspiring to do better in the league than merely winning it. We have to compile a list of long-term goals that we can achieve at the same time as winning the league:
- Bring back flared trousers and lapels as a reasonable fashion statement;
- Prevent Tess Daly from hosting anything on television, and find and break any radio that she tries to broadcast to;
- Produce a film portraying the comedic assassination of the head of Sony Pictures, then have it banned in North Korea;
- Develop a workable design for a cold fusion reactor, then test it in Leith;
- Direct, produce and stage a musical version of 'All The President's Men', with Gregor Townsend playing every role except Deep Throat (this role being reserved for Andries Strauss, the elusive, oft-unseen centre);
- Write a white paper outlining a workable plan for federalised government in the UK; and
- Chair talks with the aim of establishing a two-state solution to the situation in Palestine.

Bearing in mind that Rob Harley is likely injured for a wee bit, he should have half of these done by Thursday lunchtime.

I was laughing until you described Strauss as "elusive". Sadly he doesn't elude the Edinburgh line up any more than opposition defenders, who pick him up with unerring accuracy, typically some distance behind the advantage line!

As Leinster lost away and nearly (and arguably would have 9 times out of 10) lost at home to a Quins side which though getting some form back slowly are still 8th in the Jeff, with no complaints that we don't deserve to be there right now, tells me that the Provinces are DEFINITELY weaker. I don't even see how anyone can contest it

Yes they are (with the exception of Connacht), they have clearly put more emphasis on the national team and with the RWC on the horizon i can see why though.

IanBru wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:As it stands Glasgow should make the Pro12 play-offs but their fans will probably see that as par.

Well... I can't help thinking that if we win the league this year, I'll be generally satisfied. Not 'over the moon', but satisfied.

For me, Glasgow have to be aspiring to do better in the league than merely winning it.

They have to do better in the league than winning it???????

Edinburgh

A very mixed bag. Injuries have really hurt us but we have both had good wins and poor looses. Looks like Solomons is not making a huge difference. Weak leadership and tactics still curse Edinburgh.

A european cup place next year looks pretty well out of reach but a decent run in the minnows cup looks possible as a target for this year

Dorothy_Mantooth wrote:

IanBru wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:As it stands Glasgow should make the Pro12 play-offs but their fans will probably see that as par.

Well... I can't help thinking that if we win the league this year, I'll be generally satisfied. Not 'over the moon', but satisfied.

For me, Glasgow have to be aspiring to do better in the league than merely winning it.

They have to do better in the league than winning it???????

Makes sense to me. A World Class side like Glasgow doesn't just need to win the league, but win it well. Records must be broken. Al Kellock should be knighted, statues carved of Josh Strauss in every City in the land and animals slaughtered on the pyre of Glaswegian humanity, fairness and great humour - the only people to have all three in legendary abundance.

Man I wish I lived in Glasgow.

SCARLETS

Coaching -: Easterby has gone, and Pivac has come in, theoretical gain. Although Easters was a young inexperienced coach learning the job as he went, he did getting results. Pivac has come in with a far better C.V., and has had a great unbeaten run at home. However he is unable to get any kind of performance out of the side away from home. On top of that we have Danny Wilson as our forwards coach, Pivac was meant to be his replacement, but due to Easters leaving the forwards coaching has more or less fell upon Phil John's shoulders. So personally I would say that this is a backwards step.

Players -: We lost Foxy and Gareth Maule in the centre, to players who have never let us down. And we replaced them with Regan King, and eventually, Hadleigh Parkes. That is most certainly a net loss. We signed Harry Robinson, and seem to almost be unable to drop him, and as a result we have not seen Jordan Williams, so again a net loss.

In the pack it is not so bad, we lost Turnbull, and brought in Pitman and Hala'ufia (ha ha ha). Pitman has been really good so far, he needs to work on being able to catch and hold onto the ball, but other than that he is a good buy. And Turnbull's loss has been softened by the rise of Cubby in the backrow.

Results -: Pffft, in the league we have been pretty average (hence middle of the table I guess). No real attacking flair at all, we seem to have made a few defensive lapses in our first two/four games, and the coaches have taken it upon themselves to ban us from playing attacking rugby until we are water tight behind.

In Europe we are performing far better than expected, with two wins out of four games and in a pool where we were expected to be the cannon fodder, that is pretty pleasing.


Overall -: Unbeaten at home, no wins away. Only can be described as average. Depending on how you look at things it could be argued that we have either improved greatly, or dramatically fallen behind. As a school report would say, must try harder.

Going up

Ospreys
Connacht
Zebre

Going Down

Leinster
Ulster
Treviso

As you were

everyone else

Spot on Rodders.

How it can be claimed the Welsh Regions (Ospreys apart) are improving when the results have not improved and two of the three top Irish provinces are declining is beyond me.

If Scarlets were improving they would be challenging Ulster and Leinster they are not.
If Blues and Dragons were improving they would not be behind Edinburgh - they are

geoff999rugby wrote:Spot on Rodders.

How it can be claimed the Welsh Regions (Ospreys apart) are improving when the results have not improved and two of the three top Irish provinces are declining is beyond me.

If Scarlets were improving they would be challenging Ulster and Leinster they are not.
If Blues and Dragons were improving they would not be behind Edinburgh - they are

+1, argument could well be that the Scarlets and Blues are falling behind where they should/could be.

I think that the abilities of the teams from the Pro12 are a lot closer this season. It's made a win harder, I have enjoyed the games more.

Almost all the teams are not settled sides and there is an element of wait and see about the league. The second half of the season could be very interesting.

It's close and there is a lot of games to play.

I don't buy this theory that the Irish are concentrating more on the international team as an explanation for the weaker performances of the provinces. I think a combination of injuries and new coaches have set them back. It wasn't somehow planned.

Getting O'Brien and Healy back in the new year will make a big difference to Leinster. However we'd have to win every remaining game to equal last seasons finish, which isn't gonna happen.

Leinster were bound to suffer with BOD retiring, Sexton leaving and Healy and SOB being out injured. Losing Schmidt to Ireland was also a blow. You wouldn't expect that combination of events not to shake the HC winning side.

FecklessRogue wrote:I don't buy this theory that the Irish are concentrating more on the international team as an explanation for the weaker performances of the provinces. I think a combination of injuries and new coaches have set them back. It wasn't somehow planned.

.

Spot on
Leinster have lost BOD, Nacewa, Sexton, Cullen in the last 2 years and have long term injuries to SOB and Healy. They have also replaced Schmidt with MOC as coach
Ulster have lost Mueller, Afoa, Ferris, Wannenberg in the last two years and have long term injuries to Henry and Henderson. They have no head coach
It is not rocket science to see why both have declined

BOD and Cullen weren't big losses. They were past their sell by dates. Nacewa is missed. Losing Healy and SOB is huge. If you can't get over the gain line it limits your game in so many ways. And these were our gain line smashing masters. We saw how limited Ireland's attacking play is without them too. I also think losing Jonno Gibbes as forwards coach is a massive loss and a massive gain for Clermont. Gibbes packs tend never to be bullied like Leinster were against Munster last week.

I think with BOD and Cullen it was more their character and aura around the squad that would go missing. A bit like Dallaglio towards the end of his Wasps career, it was more his leadership and drive that was important to Wasps, rather than his dwindling abilities as a player.

The dressing room without those guys would be a different place, particularly without those experienced old heads. Both BOD and Cullen were particularly canny operators as well, knowing all the onfield short cuts.

funnyExiledScot wrote:I think with BOD and Cullen it was more their character and aura around the squad that would go missing. A bit like Dallaglio towards the end of his Wasps career, it was more his leadership and drive that was important to Wasps, rather than his dwindling abilities as a player.

The dressing room without those guys would be a different place, particularly without those experienced old heads. Both BOD and Cullen were particularly canny operators as well, knowing all the onfield short cuts.

fES

Spot on, players like you mentioned plus the likes of a Quinnell or a Gibbs will always be a loss initially due to their presence with the squad and dressing room.

Yeah probably true. The addition of Sexton next season will help with the leadership and drive, as well his rugby skills.

Exactly my thinking BOD and Cullen had a aura about them as did Mueller, big time, at Ulster

FecklessRogue wrote:Yeah probably true. The addition of Sexton next season will help with the leadership and drive, as well his rugby skills.

Sexton will make a massive difference, and some of the impressive young guns in the squad, Martin Moore, Jack McGrath, Madigan etc. will have an extra season under their belts (plus in some cases a RWC).

Develop the young lads this season and you'll be in really good shape the season after.

The more I think about it the more I think our next game at Leinster could be season defining. We've already lost slightly unluckily to Munster away and we were comprehensively beaten by Ospreys away. We need to start getting wins on the road and if we can't beat the other top four teams away we have almost no chance whatsoever of getting to at least 3rd place or higher. If we lose this one its hard to see us doing any more than scraping 4th or lower, we'll be 5th with 10 games to go and the teams above us look consistent or at least as consistent as us. If we can't beat any of them away in the league, hard to see us winning two away games in the playoffs.

Unfortunately we simply do not have the players in the back row to replace the opens that are missing, Pienaar probably won't be fit to start and Humphreys and Jackson are both off form. We look weak from 6-10, the spine of the team is very weak right now.

Also of concern for Ulster is the air of acceptance of not getting all five points against the Dragons or Connacht. We aren't capitalising on our opportunities for try bonus points, we are performing well enough to get wins at home but we need to be more dominant at home then those five pointers will come. So we need to be less content with that. The standards are being set a bit too low as there is a lack of senior, experienced players available to us.

So hopefully the team realises the importance of the Leinster game and throws everything at it. We need almost every player to have a seasons best performance.

How's Stuart Olding getting on this season? Any prospect of him making the Ireland 6 Nations squad?

Yeah, he looks good but he's been in and out of the team due to injury and the fact we have lots of other options. The one area we have genuine strength in depth in is the centre. Thats maybe stopped him hitting top gear.

He will be in the squad but I don't think he will win many caps. He might be on the bench covering fullback, he is quite outstanding attacking from 15 but not as good defensively as other fullbacks- he would make a good impact player though, but I expect Schmidt will not use him in the match day squad for most games.

funnyExiledScot wrote:How's Stuart Olding getting on this season? Any prospect of him making the Ireland 6 Nations squad?

He's looked one of our best attacking threats so I'm sure Schmidt will bring him into the training squad at least. He's bulked up a bit this year but did struggle to defend Basterau in the RCC so Schmidt may feel he's not quite ready to step up... however I wouldn't be surprised if he and Henshaw line up in the centre at some point soon. If he can hold down the 12 spot at Ulster that will help his cause because think Madigan has the utility/bench spot nailed down. I think he has a good chance of making the RWC squad if he stays fit.