The Corso Marauders Dew Drop Inn Virtual Rugby Pub, Amsterdam

First topic message reminder :

Hello and welcome to the Virtual Rugby Pub, a place where you can come in for a sly beverage and discuss whatever's on your mind, or just eavesdrop on the regulars if you fancy a break from all the rugby chat.

The Pub has made its way to Amsterdam in honour of original publican Gibson who is finally back in gainful employment. One small step for man ...

The only rule in this pub is one of mutual respect for everyone in it, oh and no tampering with the pictures of former Corso Marauder Lawrence Dallaglio or young ice hockey prize winner (thanks to the v2ers) Chris Boyd.



Old pub https://www.606v2.com/t34157p950-the-dew-drop-inn-virtual-rugby-pub-sea-of-tranquility-luna#1518392

Spoiler:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Bore da pawb / good morning all, it's weekend eve!

rugbydreamer wrote:

MrsP wrote:Evening all.

Dreamer, I remember my driving instructor stuck a wee piece of gaffer tape at the bottom of one of the rear passenger windows to help folk learn to reverse around corners. You just make the tape follow the kerb and round you go. Worked a treat!

There's a sticker on the back of the car window and special small round mirrors stuck on the side mirrors to help me but my mind goes blank. As soon as the car goes backwards I just don't know which way to turn the wheel!

Which is weird because reverse parallel parking I'm pretty okay.... clearly tis a mental thing

Dreamer, I was the same - until about a fortnight before my (third) test, when all of a sudden I was a whizz at reversing around a corner but hopeless at parallel parking. I was praying that the instructor wouldn't ask me to parallel park. She was going to, but it was had been really windy overnight and in the exact spot where she was going to get me to parallel park, a sapling had blown over. So she asked me to reverse into a bay back at the test centre, and that was that! I think the word is providence.

aha! I shall hope for something similar. The roads are so narrow in Lampeter that parralel parking and reverse around corners aren't always possible which would leave me my favourite the turn in the road....hmmm....

And I am quite jealous of you going away! When's your flight?

Mickado wrote:

Hoog wrote:I was thinking that as well mick and the only fair option is a two legged game. How workable that is though I'm not to sure. So at the moment I reckon what they have in place is the best option by making it luck of the draw.

I agree. It's not an ideal situation but at least it's not unfair. I mean, had Leinster got a better draw in 2010, they could have won 4 HCs on the trot. Now, wewouldn't have deserved it because our pack (scrum anyway) was pish that year, but we lost to Toulouse in Toulouse by 10 points, it's not beyond the realms of posibility to think we could have won that if it was at home, then Biarritz in the final? Sure even Munster could beat them.

Thats a very good point, and plus as unfair as it may be, law if averages says it'll even out over time anyway.
And plus I fricking love the draw, the nervous anticipation in knowing that your chances of winning the cup will either drastically rise or fall with the pull of a ball is wonderful to watch

PJHolybloke wrote:
The bun fight has started regarding the ERC, as the current ERC agreement finishes in 2014, so does the ERC's right to sell the TV rights.

Whether it's a good move or a bad move, the English clubs have made in terms of their "bargaining power", the way I was dragged up, it's just rude and ill-mannered; there's no way of hiding that fact.

Extremely elitist but understandable. The AP clubs have stated they are not happy and are obviously going to try to put mechanisms in place for any eventuality.
I would be surprised if there wasn't a clause in the negotiations regarding the European Competition depending on the outcome of the negotiations with ERC at the end of the season.

Hoog wrote:That's how I see it as well PJ. Thus latest move is the final nail in the coffin for me, what I say the ERC do now is court the French and come to an agreement with them and let the Jeff go away on its own.

Two seasons max before they come back, cap in hand begging to be allowed back in.

I think the English may have pre-empted this and you may find they have the French on board. Remember the French don't rely on Sky.

Hoog wrote:
But in the grand scheme of things I just can't see how either country would be better off in the long run by leaving the HC. It seems to me they they will chop of their nose just to spite their face. Surly to god its makes more economic sense to be in a Europe wide competition than to not be, even of the tv Money is not what you think it should be. They need to see how many people come to their games because of HC action, a dam sight more than would turn up for a Anglo French game is say

Thing is Hughie the TV money far outweighs the income from punters. Sponsors will be more happy to part with cash if there is a good TV deal in place. No matter what, armchair viewers will tune in to watch. That's the catchment.

red_stag wrote:Lads isn't the agreement for "any FUTURE European competitions".

i.e. If the Heineken Cup continues this will not apply. If the Anglo French sets up then BT will have the rights.

Looks like the English clubs are preparing for all scenarios.

The HC beyond this season is a "future" competition therefore open to negotiation. It's interesting that AP clubs are countering ERC allegations of what was agreed in June. Some one of the two parties is publicly "lying".

Someone pointed out on another thread that the Top14 have also sold rights to BT. If so sounds like the French are on board and they and the AP clubs are already sowing the seeds for an Anglo-French competition.

I'd say for sure this is the end of the Heino.

Feic it Stevie Ferris says the Interpros are more intense than the HEC anyways....

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:"Looks like the English clubs are preparing for all scenarios."

That's my reading of it too. BT Vision may well go to court if the AP clubs stay in the HC and ERC's new deal with Sky from 2014* trumps BT's deal.

* The new ERC/Sky deal was a massive knee jerk reaction from Sky after the AP/BT deal wa announced.

Et bon jour mes amis.

Hound . from reading the Torygraph commentary this morning, it sounds the other way round - SKY/ERC deal agreed back in June, AP/BT deal announced to ERC last Wed

It's about 5ish on Sunday afternoon, Dreamer. Cannae wait.

Ah you'll have an absolutely fabulous time out there Lucky!

Rodders - why do you think it's the end of the Heino?

A French-Anglo competition won't last. The joy of the Heino is that there are so many different clubs in it each year it doesn't get stale or boring. French-Anglo will be same clubs year in year out = borefest. Marketing wise etc it doesn't hold a patch on the Heino which tv and sponsorship deals should have the nouse to see.

Well dreamer it looks like the AP clubs have made up their minds to leave the comp, no doubt the French Top14 clubs are in cahoots.

I honestly think the HEC is over as we know it from the end of next season.

I'm with rodders on this one I have to say, I'm very fearful that we are going to lose the hc as we know it. If they push ahead with their plan we will 100% lose the hc for at least two seasons, and if it does come back after that it'll be a revamped completely changed format that will be no where near as good as it is now.


Were all doomed I tell ya, DOOOOOOMMMMMMEEEDDD

Dreamer. There is a market for everything. The business model doesn't necessarily align itself exactly with the product. This is because the funders (in this case BT Vision) are looking at:
1. Number of potential viewers
2. Amount of advertising income available.
3. An increase in the number of people subscribing.

You say a French-Anglo competition won't last. If it is for a three year period then it probably will. That will satisfy both parties as they will have got what they both negotiated. If it doesn't work it wont be repeated. If it does you can bet they will and the Celtic Nation clubs and Italians will be only to glad to get involved.

I'm not so sure they have tho Rodders. Might just be the way I'm reading things, but it seems more to me that they are just trying to negotiate a better deal for themselves, that they don't really want to leave it but are putting things in place incase they are forced to (i.e they aren't given what they want).

You'd hope they'd see sense soon like, but I honestly can't see the HEC changing. (admittedly this does rely on people in charge using common sense and intelligence so then again.....who knows! )

Have faith, lads, I'm still hoping that this is simply all ('unseemly' - loving that word, will be using it a lot today) posturing - when they get around the negotiating table soon, a compromise that keeps everyone involved will be found

"Logical Friday, Logical Friday" - I'll be watching THIS tomorrow

Rava wrote:Dreamer. There is a market for everything. The business model doesn't necessarily align itself exactly with the product. This is because the funders (in this case BT Vision) are looking at:
1. Number of potential viewers
2. Amount of advertising income available.
3. An increase in the number of people subscribing.

You say a French-Anglo competition won't last. If it is for a three year period then it probably will. That will satisfy both parties as they will have got what they both negotiated. If it doesn't work it wont be repeated. If it does you can bet they will and the Celtic Nation clubs and Italians will be only to glad to get involved.

So it'll be just like the Heineken Cup again just that the French and English will have thrown a temper tantrum for 3 years?

Maybe I am completely wrong about this but I just can't see it changing all that much if at all.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Have faith, lads, I'm still hoping that this is simply all ('unseemly' - loving that word, will be using it a lot today) posturing - when they get around the negotiating table soon, a compromise that keeps everyone involved will be found

+1

rugbydreamer wrote:

Rava wrote:Dreamer. There is a market for everything. The business model doesn't necessarily align itself exactly with the product. This is because the funders (in this case BT Vision) are looking at:
1. Number of potential viewers
2. Amount of advertising income available.
3. An increase in the number of people subscribing.

You say a French-Anglo competition won't last. If it is for a three year period then it probably will. That will satisfy both parties as they will have got what they both negotiated. If it doesn't work it wont be repeated. If it does you can bet they will and the Celtic Nation clubs and Italians will be only to glad to get involved.

So it'll be just like the Heineken Cup again just that the French and English will have thrown a temper tantrum for 3 years?

Maybe I am completely wrong about this but I just can't see it changing all that much if at all.

No Dreamer, the English and French will get what they ultimately want and that is a reduction in the number of clubs from the RABO.
If they can negotiate that at the end of this season (As Asbos says, a compromise) then it will have been worth the posturing. No?

what I ding understand though is the blatant disregard of the real fans in this situation. You ask every season ticket holder of the teams involved if they would prefer hc rugby or some made up plastic competition with no history.


And as for the armchair viwer Rav, the people who bt will make their money from, yeah I can really see them getting settled in to Worchester v Brive..........



Aaaahhhh Ballix to the lot of them, hope the whole idea crashes and burns in a pile of redundant misery

Rava wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

Rava wrote:Dreamer. There is a market for everything. The business model doesn't necessarily align itself exactly with the product. This is because the funders (in this case BT Vision) are looking at:
1. Number of potential viewers
2. Amount of advertising income available.
3. An increase in the number of people subscribing.

You say a French-Anglo competition won't last. If it is for a three year period then it probably will. That will satisfy both parties as they will have got what they both negotiated. If it doesn't work it wont be repeated. If it does you can bet they will and the Celtic Nation clubs and Italians will be only to glad to get involved.

So it'll be just like the Heineken Cup again just that the French and English will have thrown a temper tantrum for 3 years?

Maybe I am completely wrong about this but I just can't see it changing all that much if at all.

No Dreamer, the English and French will get what they ultimately want and that is a reduction in the number of clubs from the RABO.
If they can negotiate that at the end of this season (As Asbos says, a compromise) then it will have been worth the posturing. No?

Hmmmm. Dunno. Just don't see it happening. Certainly not the Celtic or Italian nations agreeing to it and I honestly don't see the French really going through with it either. And like I said sponsorship wise even tv figures as you are quoting BT looking at, and Anglo-French competition just doesn't have a big enough sway to beat a competition format as it is right now.

I just can't see the folks in charge letting it happen to be honest (or I would sincerely hope not anyways)

So is this purely a money thing?

Hoog wrote:You ask every season ticket holder of the teams involved if they would prefer hc rugby or some made up plastic competition with no history.

Ironically Hughie, the French and English seem to value their domestic competitions which have a history over a made up European competition.

BTW thanks to Pete for his great editing.

Podcast is out - https://www.606v2.com/t34862-the-breakdown-the-v2-rugby-podcast

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So is this purely a money thing?

I'm not really sure Lucky.

Seems to me it's all posturing and egos more than anything along with the money. All seems a bit of a mess when logically and sensibly if you are to look at it, keeping the Heineken format as it is makes the most sense.
(or it does to me anyways)

Dreamer if contracts have been signed then it has gone beyond the posturing stage.

The reality is that the AP and Top14 clubs don't actually need either the HEC or an Anglo-French cup for revenue. The HEC is only 20% of the AP clubs revenue.

I'd say that this will wrangle on but unless the ERC, and specifically the Rabo countries, are prepared to bend over backwards to acommodate the AP clubs then thats it for the HEC, if it isn't already.

By signing this deal they are effectively pulling out of the HEC and leaving the door open for a new competition on BT which the Rabo countries can join if they wish.

Sky still have the HEC deal but if the English AP teams, and probably the French, aren't involved then will they continue to show it?

I'd say we'll end up with two seperate comps for a while before a new revamped comp is set up some time down the line.

rugbydreamer wrote:

Rava wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

Rava wrote:Dreamer. There is a market for everything. The business model doesn't necessarily align itself exactly with the product. This is because the funders (in this case BT Vision) are looking at:
1. Number of potential viewers
2. Amount of advertising income available.
3. An increase in the number of people subscribing.

You say a French-Anglo competition won't last. If it is for a three year period then it probably will. That will satisfy both parties as they will have got what they both negotiated. If it doesn't work it wont be repeated. If it does you can bet they will and the Celtic Nation clubs and Italians will be only to glad to get involved.

So it'll be just like the Heineken Cup again just that the French and English will have thrown a temper tantrum for 3 years?

Maybe I am completely wrong about this but I just can't see it changing all that much if at all.

No Dreamer, the English and French will get what they ultimately want and that is a reduction in the number of clubs from the RABO.
If they can negotiate that at the end of this season (As Asbos says, a compromise) then it will have been worth the posturing. No?

Hmmmm. Dunno. Just don't see it happening. Certainly not the Celtic or Italian nations agreeing to it and I honestly don't see the French really going through with it either. And like I said sponsorship wise even tv figures as you are quoting BT looking at, and Anglo-French competition just doesn't have a big enough sway to beat a competition format as it is right now.

I just can't see the folks in charge letting it happen to be honest (or I would sincerely hope not anyways)

How many people thought that Rabo taking over the Celtic League would be the death of it. Now look at the marketing that has gone on. You yourself have been a benefactor of this. BT is a bigger organisation again therefore I would expect they wouldn't just sit back and let the games begin.

You say you can't see the Celtic or Italian nations agreeing to it. That is the very reason the AP and the French are doing this. There will be compromise I'm sure but don't for one minute think the Rabo nations hold the Ace cards. If the Celtic league was attractive don't you think Sky/ESPN would have come knocking on the door before now?

I do agree with you on your last statement by the way.

It will all depend on the French then rodders. If they don't go with the English then a HEC of the French and Rabo teams wouldn't be so bad (although obvs not ideal)

Tis ludicrous the English are going this way though (if indeed it gets that far)

Just still don't see it happening (mainly because all points of logic point to it being incredibly stupid but I do understand certain people in charge seem not to have the capability of looking at it that way)

I shall continue to hope that some sort of compromise (even if it's just down to how Rabo teams qualify) is reached. Don't see the point in getting all upset about it before we even really know what's happening.

Rava - I don't think I recall anyone saying Rabo taking over it would be the death of it??

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So is this purely a money thing?

Of course it's a money thing. Rugby is completely secondary. All the arguments about the English clubs being at a disadvantage because of no relegation in the Rabo and Irish provinces resting International players has little to do with it. AP Clubs want a bigger share of the pot. This is a business driven decision.

I think Rava has hit nail on head.

It is business driven Rava but I'm not sure this situation would have come about if the French and English clubs were dominating.

More money to the AP and French teams won't resolve this, they are clearly not happy with the current format and are prepared to walk away.

Dreamer I think the fact that the French teams also have a deal with BT suggests, if you read between the lines, that they are on board with the AP teams.

rugbydreamer wrote:Rava - I don't think I recall anyone saying Rabo taking over it would be the death of it??

yeah Rava . I think you dreamt that one bud.

It absolutely disgusts me. (if you havnt figured it out by now)


What really pi$$es me off about the "compromise" they offer is that it basically equates to kicking the Italians out of the tournament. How on earth is that fair???



I say Ireland Wales Scotland and Italy get together at the negotiation table and "right lads you want to run with this, no worries, go ahead, just know if you push us to far we leave the six nations for a couple of years"


See who has the biggest mickey then. All this is is a dick measuring competition and its bloody terrible for the fans

But Hoog that would be really stupid of us to do.

As Rava has said the English hold the cards. Who will lose out if we leave the 6 Nations. We will.

If we are keen on holding our ground our only option is for the RaboDirect to emulate the Heineken Cups.

rodders wrote:It is business driven Rava but I'm not sure this situation would have come about if the French and English clubs were dominating.

More money to the AP and French teams won't resolve this, they are clearly not happy with the current format and are prepared to walk away.

Dreamer I think the fact that the French teams also have a deal with BT suggests, if you read between the lines, that they are on board with the AP teams.

That's only to show the games in the UK though isn't it? nothing to do with showing the games in France. I wouldn't read too much into that.

Plus there's a bit of hooha on an article on the Beeb now that the PRL have breached some sort of regulation. This is going to get quite messy I think.

Hoog - that's just really childish and would make us as bad as them.

Hoog wrote: All this is is a dick measuring competition and its bloody terrible for the fans

No this is all about cash. England and France see an opportunity to play their ace cards and earn more money at the expense of the Celtic nations.

It is not a dick measuring contest. Its about cash.

DRAEMER - you have PM (and I've not added a T )

Sometimes it takes lowering yourself to someone's level if you want to beat them

red_stag wrote:

Hoog wrote: All this is is a dick measuring competition and its bloody terrible for the fans

No this is all about cash. England and France see an opportunity to play their ace cards and earn more money at the expense of the Celtic nations.

It is not a dick measuring contest. Its about cash.

What's the difference?? in the end you still want to have the biggest bit.

Hoog wrote:
I say Ireland Wales Scotland and Italy get together at the negotiation table and "right lads you want to run with this, no worries, go ahead, just know if you push us to far we leave the six nations for a couple of years"

Yeah but this is the AP, not the RFU doing this. The AP don't give a shoite about the 6N, in fact they'd love to see it canned probably.

The reality is that the Rabo teams have very little leverage here. If the genuine desire is there with the big AP teams to keep the HEC going then it can be done, otherwise it's dead.

The main revenue driver for the Irish teams is the 6N via the IRFU, not the HEC, but could the Welsh teams manage with just the Rabo?

I'd imagine the Irish provinces wouldn't be so attractive to the top NIEs without the carrot of HEC rugby though.

Hoog that wouldnt beat them. Thats just cutting off your nose to spite your face.

I'm not offering it as a genuine option lads, just something to show the combined strength of the four nations

PenfroPete wrote:DRAEMER - you have PM (and I've not added a T )

responded (and I shall ignore the bracket bit, tis most mean to say that when a girl's in serious pain and on drugs because of her tooth! )


What I don't get is why people are assuming future competitions to be the HEC. We don't know, all this knicker twisting could be for nowt.

Also, if people really wanted to start panicking I could easily (ha!) see the Welsh throwing in their lot with the English.

A lot of people are of the school of thought taht the Rabo just isn't attractive enough and we'll only get the bigger crowds if we play the English more regularly so who knows.......

Hoog wrote:I'm not offering it as a genuine option lads, just something to show the combined strength of the four nations

charming!

Hoog wrote:I'm not offering it as a genuine option lads, just something to show the combined strength of the four nations

Concentrating completely on the Rabo and turning it into a top class international competition is our only option if we want to stand up to the Premiership and Top 14 clubs.

We have no bargaining power when it comes to 6 Nations, Lions or European Cup. If these fell apart we would be the ones to suffer.

It is now a choice to see which is less of a pinch to us both on the rugby field and financially. Do we reach a compromise with them in order to sustain a European competition. Or do we just concentrate on the Rabo?

PenfroPete wrote:DRAEMER - you have PM (and I've not added a T )

That was seriously naughty Penfro.

rugbydreamer wrote:

Hoog wrote:I'm not offering it as a genuine option lads, just something to show the combined strength of the four nations

charming!

Deny it all you want shovey bit you are one of the lads

Oooh , I'm such a little aren't I

DREAMER - you have a reply. See you Sunday

Hoog wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:

Hoog wrote:I'm not offering it as a genuine option lads, just something to show the combined strength of the four nations

charming!

Deny it all you want shovey bit you are one of the lads

Yet also, not one.

Penfro - aces! see you then

rugbydreamer wrote:
Also, if people really wanted to start panicking I could easily (ha!) see the Welsh throwing in their lot with the English.

A lot of people are of the school of thought taht the Rabo just isn't attractive enough and we'll only get the bigger crowds if we play the English more regularly so who knows.......

I agree dreamer and was suggesting that above.

Don't know why people are talking about the 6N. The AP are completely seperate from the RFU...in fact they don't even get on with the RFU.

The Rabo teams have no cards here. Once the current contractual obligations expire the AP teams can do what they want.

If people are meeting in de diff for lunch sunday then I may be about, hungover but about!!

Prop - shall text you when I'm headed into town on the Sun then

rugbydreamer wrote:

Also, if people really wanted to start panicking I could easily (ha!) see the Welsh throwing in their lot with the English.

A lot of people are of the school of thought taht the Rabo just isn't attractive enough and we'll only get the bigger crowds if we play the English more regularly so who knows.......

That could be an option worth looking at, from a Welsh point of view, though it would take massive league restructuring to achieve it. They could start by sending the best players off to London Welsh to help keep them in the Premiership this season and guarantee them a place on the Anglo-French Cup next season.