Ward vs Calzaghe

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After tonight I truly think Ward beats Calzaghe at his peak.

What say you..

I would have to question Wards engine if he fought Calzaghe, there's fighting at a decent pace then there's fighting at a frentic pace which he would have to do, he was blowing in the last two rounds against Froch in what was a fairly slow paced fight. He would open up an early points lead but from the 6th onwards Calzaghe would up the tempo and get more and more joy pulling it back to win by a couple.

Ward can fight Froch in his garden, it doesn't matter he will still win. Those judges score cards were laughable it was pretty much a complete shutout.

Froch is also one of my favourite fighters...

The fight against Froch was overall very one sided but broken down into rounds I had it 115-113 to Ward, he was outworked for a few rounds and didn't do much. I always says it an anomaly of a fight as using the 10 point must system it appears closer than it actually was.

Im not slating Ward in any way at all. I have previously stated he is genuine world class and that has been proven. I just want to see him tested by going abroad for a fight. If he is willing to travel to the UK to fight a retired Calzaghe, then why wont he travel to fight Froch, Kessler, Bute??

Lets be honest here, who else can he fight in his home town??? He has had it all his own way, and if he can not be tested physically by anyone in the division, then lets see his mental composure out on the road.


Thats all i want to see.


For example, if he went to Bute in Canada and won a convincing UD, went to UK for fight with Calzaghe/Froch and won convincingly, then he should have 100% credit as being a top p4p fighter.

Until this is achieved through no fault of his own, then he will be 99%.

Its hard to call. I would say that Ward would win but because JC had such a good work rate and chin I think it would have been a good fight and he would have made Ward work very hard for it.

But with that being said we have not seen Ward really dragged through any trouble... so we do not really know how he and his game plan would react when put in the trenches. Even when he has lost rounds its more like he is taking a breather or working a guy out and it has never really been in deep water.

I agree he has had things all his way and almost seems a little spoiled, But you have to look at his technical ability. He does not bamboos people, or use the home crowed to boost his work rate and energy. He used technical class to completely take people apart and work their weaknesses and is second to none when working the inside.. and for me there is no real reason why he could not do this in any ring or town as its simply how he boxes.

This does not mean he should not be put through the test though.

I think JC would give him problems and have a good go and we dont know how Ward reacts to problems, so it is possible to me that JC could have cracked him. But I get the feeling that Ward has not been in the trenches because he is too good and hence would beat JC ... but there is always the chance that once Ward gets smacked a few times, his silk might not be so silky. If he does prove to have warrior skills and mentality, then I think we have our selves a VERY special fighter.

The genius of PBF wrote:Calzaghe went to Germany to fight a guy he already knocked out in 1 round and fought a shot over the hill Roy Jones.

It doesn't matter where you fight...Your delusional if you think that it matters.

Plus the States is where the money is at why should Ward travel when he is the number one fighter.

Are you serious....so there is no such thing as home advantage? Have you ever played any type of sport?

I think the home and away issue may have a bearing on Ward v Calzaghe. I'm not sure I see either man winning a decision away from home and I tihnk the clash of styles would allow the judges to call it how they see fit without too much controversy.

On neutral ground, Ward probably wins more often than not but it's not a fight I'd want to bet on as has "MD" written all over it. Ward's style does require some appreciation of the finer points of the game and Calzaghe's all action style does make it easy to score rounds for him. Ward took a few rounds off against Froch that he couldn't afford against Joe and it would be interesting to see him have to fight full pelt for 12 rounds.

As for Froch he'd have a much better chance in Nottingham. I think he was too easily discouraged in the first fight and seemed to decide very early on that he was only going to win if he found the big punch and he abandoned trying to box altogether. It made for a fairly comfortable night for Ward and he was able to build up a big lead. In Nottingham with the crowd behind him, I think Froch fights with a greater intensity and a greater sense of purpose. Ward is still heavy favourite but I could see Froch providing him with his most uncomfortable fight.

P.S. I don't think Ward bullies Calzaghe on the inside like he did Froch.

Ward takes it for me, but not without an almighty struggle. We've seen Hopkins handle Calzaghe until he ran out of steam and I would see the fight being similar to that one.

As for the whole home and away argument, It does make a difference, and a big one at that. Why do you think home teams nearly always have better records than being away from home?

mobilemaster8 wrote:Im not slating Ward in any way at all. I have previously stated he is genuine world class and that has been proven. I just want to see him tested by going abroad for a fight. If he is willing to travel to the UK to fight a retired Calzaghe, then why wont he travel to fight Froch, Kessler, Bute??

Lets be honest here, who else can he fight in his home town??? He has had it all his own way, and if he can not be tested physically by anyone in the division, then lets see his mental composure out on the road.


Thats all i want to see.


For example, if he went to Bute in Canada and won a convincing UD, went to UK for fight with Calzaghe/Froch and won convincingly, then he should have 100% credit as being a top p4p fighter.

Until this is achieved through no fault of his own, then he will be 99%.

Mayweather's never fought outside the US. Doesn't stop him being considered the top P4P guy.

It's easy to forget that Calzaghe was past his best when he beat Hopkins. I see a very close fight between Ward and Calzaghe which could go either way.

The genius of PBF wrote:Ghosty

If you done your research you would know Berto has been cleared and if your a drugs cheat you dont take nandrolone!!!

Berto had low levels and was positive because of food contamination...With Conte knowledge do you really think he would give Berto nandrolone when he has knows VADA test for it and it stays in your system for 18 months.

Educate yourself on PEDS and Conte before debating with me.

Thoughts on Marquez working with steriod dealer for the Pacquiao fight?

I've googled this and can't find any evidence to support the statement. Cali commission has given him a licence but he's still banned by Nevada and hasn't, as far as I can see, been formally cleared of PED abuse. Just looks like money talks and Cali's finances are in worse shape than Nevada's. Seems more a case of 'excused' rather than 'cleared'.

Group Cpt Lionel Mandrake wrote:

mobilemaster8 wrote:Im not slating Ward in any way at all. I have previously stated he is genuine world class and that has been proven. I just want to see him tested by going abroad for a fight. If he is willing to travel to the UK to fight a retired Calzaghe, then why wont he travel to fight Froch, Kessler, Bute??

Lets be honest here, who else can he fight in his home town??? He has had it all his own way, and if he can not be tested physically by anyone in the division, then lets see his mental composure out on the road.


Thats all i want to see.


For example, if he went to Bute in Canada and won a convincing UD, went to UK for fight with Calzaghe/Froch and won convincingly, then he should have 100% credit as being a top p4p fighter.

Until this is achieved through no fault of his own, then he will be 99%.

Mayweather's never fought outside the US. Doesn't stop him being considered the top P4P guy.

Look at Hatton, Cotto, Mayweather, Froch, Calzaghe........Manchester, Madison Square Gardens, MGM, Nottingham, Wales.

They have home support and the largest fan base where they fought/fight.

Ward......Oakland.

Period.

Hatton/Mayweather may aswell have been a home match for Hatton if its based on support. Likewise Calzaghe/Hopkins.

Home advantage makes a difference.

Support was there for hatton against mayweather, but having to travel so far, bed down out of your comfort zone etc is against him.

I'd take Ward on points - by 2-4 rounds. I do thinks Calzaghe's work rate would help him to stay in touch, but Ward is too good.

I'd also rate Ward more highly in terms of legacy.

I dont think home avantage, in whatever way that is defined, is sufficient to overcome significant differences in talent or ability. In close fights, between two evenly matched fighters then for sure it can be a big advantage but not if one fighter shows he is a class above.

Usually I consider the stigma of a stay at home fighter to mean they dont take on the biggest fights available and are unwilling to travel to make them happen. But with Ward he has been taking on the best fights available and winning them quite easily. I have no real doubts about him. He supposedly hasnt lost since he was 14 and Im sure he did alot of travelling as an amateur. I think whats probably happening now is that hes already too good for the competition so having the fights at home just makes them even more harder for his opponents when they already up against it. For this reason Id prefer to see Ward travel more but I dont think it would have affected any of the outcomes of his fights so far.

My only criticism of Ward is the amount of big fights he manages to get staged in his hometown. I don't think fighting in the US is an issue, home country advantage isn't that big a deal in boxing. It can only be brought into question on the issue of judge corruption imo, that which Ward doesn't have to worry about seeing as he's been vastly superior against everyone he's fought so far. But staging his volume of super-fights practically in his local neighbourhood seems to me to be a little cheap. That's all I'll say against him.

As for Ward vs Calzaghe, I'm not one to comment on who I think would have won on the subject of past-v-present fantasy. But Ward has already the superior record of the two. Off-topic slightly but one of my main reasons for supporting Haye vs Chisora was due to the British Boxing Board's threat to suspend Warren's licence if he promoted it. I just want his influence in obstructing British fighters' development and exposure to be rubbed out.

I still feel Calzaghe would have won that superb 6 and still beat Ward in his prime. That's the key. Ward is in his prime and is certainly now an elite world level fighter and deserved of no.1 in his division. However, Calzaghe's relentless apparoach of fast hands and constantly working away at his opponent, not allowing them to settle would really trouble Ward I feel, and Calzaghe would win on points. Would be a very close fight however, maybe just 1/2 rounds in it.

Do we really think Ward is a clever enough fighter to contain Calzaghe the way Hopkins did? It had nothing to do with speed, power or finesse when Hopkins troubled him but pure experience and know how, for me Ward has a long way to go until he's near matching Hopkins for those attributes.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Do we really think Ward is a clever enough fighter to contain Calzaghe the way Hopkins did?

Yes, I do.

I'd say that the 2012 version of Ward is certainly a more formidable foe than the Hopkins of 2008. At the very least, he has more appreciable dimensions to his game than Hopkins, certainly the version of Hopkins who fought Calzaghe. Ward hasn't exactly been running out of ideas in his big fights, has he?

To me, there quite literally seems to be only one area where Calzaghe has a notable advantage, and that's work rate. I think Ward's too clever and canny an operator to just allow himself to be outhussled to a decision. He knows when to unleash, when to box going away (something Calzaghe was sorely lacking), has as good a defence as anyone in world boxing (again, certainly a lot better than Calzaghe's) etc. Against top opposition such as Kessler, Froch and Dawson, he's had an aura of dominance and virtuosity which Calzaghe never quite had against opponents of a similar ilk. As I've said before, I just can't imagine Froch boxing 33 rounds (including the stoppage round from the other night) against those three and dropping, at the most, half a dozen of those rounds in such high-class competition the way Ward has.

Calzaghe certainly not without his talents, but I'd confidently say that Ward just has that bit more class as a fighter than Joe did. With his demolition of Dawson (not so much the victory, but the manner of it) I'd say he already has a single height on his CV which Calzaghe never scaled.

Some great comments, I couldn't call it to be honest, I agree with Super that I don't think Ward can bully Calazghe on the inside, Joe was an extremely physically strong chap. At e minute if I had to pick one I'd tip Ward just and that's prob on the basis his great performance is so fresh in my memory.

Very close call, a genuine 50/50 match up

Cheers

Rodders

I can't see how beating the Dawson that turned up Saturday night is a better win than the Hopkins of 08'. Dawson was awful, probably weight drained and lazy. No way (in my opinion) does Ward destroy the Hopkins that Calzaghe fought, in that way.
Also, Calzaghe went to Light heavy and Dawson came down to Super Middle.

I do think the fantasy fight may have come down to hometown advantage as it's that close to call.

calzaghe and ward would have never fought. neither like to travel and joe was in no hurry to take on the best challenges. took him ten years to fight a decent opponent, and even then managed to miss out all the young hopefuls who fancied the job and instead went for an old roy jones as his last fight. there would have been plenty of stories of how ward priced himself out no doubt

Chris

I'm not disputing Wards talent in comparison to a 43yr old Hopkins although i'd still give BHOP the edge but it seems foolhardy to suggest he has anywhere the experience or know how that the old man possesses. In regards to ring generalship Hopkins has no equal from the past 15/20 years not even the great Mayweather or Whitaker come close to him. Now I look at Wards opposition and think yes he's clearly very good and a clear number one at 168lbs but I don't see anything to suggest he can deal with a classy southpaw volume puncher of exceptional talent.

Put him in with fighters like Benn or Collins and obviously there's a foundation to say he pitches a near shut out but what are people actually basing him beating Calzaghe on? Beating fighters not at his level and with zero similarities to him? On the flip side there's a clear comparison between Hopkins and Ward, I have said for a long time that combine the 46yr old Hopkins with the 28yr old Hopkins and you have the near perfect fighter.

Calzaghe was no inside fighter. I dont think it would even be a case of Calzaghe being bullied there, although I think Ward wins that battle certainly. But it shuts down Calzaghes workrate effectively. Ward is brilliant at going from outside of range to right up on the isie in your face very quickly. Its a style that makes it very difficult to rely on volume punching becuase War is either out of range, or he is right on top of you. Calzaghe had many strengths but was never comfortable at inside fighting.

Dawson for instance had a huge reach advantage on Ward and has quite a good jab yet he failed to establish any kind of range control and was outjabbed badly by the much smaller Ward. This particular element could not be put down to weight drain in my view. He just could get into the fight. Ward was either outside his jab or was beating him to the punch and then shutting him down. If people want to say his punch resistance was lower or his stamina affected as weight drain issues then thats one thing but it doesnt explain being totally outthought or outboxed. Dawson is always slow paced as a fighter in any case so that reason alone would not convinve me of weight problems.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that aspect then Ghosty, because I think this version of Ward would have a field day with a forty-three year old Hopkins. I'd also disagree mildly with your comment on Hopkins' ring generalship, particularly with regards to the Calzaghe fight. He let a sub-par Calzaghe back in to the fight when he had the beating of him from a technical point of view. His only means of containing Calzaghe after the middle rounds were feigning low blows and spoiling.

I appreciate that Ward hasn't met anyone, as of yet, who shares a striking resemblance to Calzaghe's style, but it's not as if there's a carbon copy of Ward on Calzaghe's ledger, either. As I said above, there seems to be an aura around Ward now of dominance that Calzaghe just never had.

I don't think that Ward's lacking in ring IQ or know how just because he's yet to hit thirty fights, either. He's already developing an edge whereby it looks as if he can beat the man in front of him in any way he chooses to, a sign of a great fighter and not a luxury that many can ever call upon. If you picked both Froch and Dawson to beat him, and he's then gone on to beat the pair of them with plenty to spare, surely it must suggest that he's a lot smarter and more mature in the ring IQ stakes than you first thought?

I agree Manos, I think actual physical strength could be a major factor of the outcome of this fight. Calzaghe is a big strong kid with a proven great chin and always found a way to win, if he could back Ward up he has a great chance, however I'm not so sure he does, Ward among other talents is extremely strong as well. It's a horrible fight to call, could be extremely scrappy and a battle of nutrition.

Cheers

Rodders

I don't see it myself, I picked froch based on nationalistic pride and didn't realise how average Dawson was, he seems to be getting massive credit for beating boxers who are all very similar. With the exception of a drained Dawson there's no variation on his record. For someone of his perceived ability he gets away with murder with the headbutts, he should have been dqd against Kessler.

I'd lean toward Ward.......more cultured!!

However you'd have to figure in the southpaw style of Calzaghe and his power!!!

Couldn't be sure but I think Ward by decision.....

I mean I had Reid beating Calzaghe.......

mobilemaster8 wrote:I think ward would lose to froch in nottingham. Anybody who thinks it does not make a difference where you fight is beyond me. If your fighting againt a hostile ground thousands ofmiles from home, i dont care who you are, it makes a diffeeence in how you fight. If your the best it wont have an effect. I have yet to see Ward do this. Until he does, iim undecided on how "great" he is.

People talk about Miranda, who was smashed in 3 rounds by Bute. Bute in turn got smashed by Froch. Fighters are different if its not all their way.

I like Froch, I think he is a good fighter, tough, underrated, and will be a nights work for any of the top guys. But he would not beat Ward in Nottingham. Yes it does make a difference, but it wont make you technically better, and thats where Ward beat Froch, he used technique to work Froch out and beat him, while Froch would probably be more of a handful in Nottingham and maybe nick a round or two more, there was not enough from Froch in the first fight to show that he would beat Ward even at home.

Froch was made to look slow, he was out muscled and rarely landed clean and when he did he was made to work so hard for it there was no power.. while he has a great chin, I think he was also surprised at Wards power and knew pretty quick that he was not going to mow him down like he may have hopped. But taking nothing away from Froch, he went in the guys back yard took 2 or 3 rounds and bounced back with a great win against Bute. but he is Second best in the division at the most, home or away.

Not sure how a guy who got his butt handed to him...

Suddenly beats a superior fighter in Nottingham....

Wouldn't be surprised If froch was stopped should they meet again...

Ward is improving all the time....

Froch has peaked!!

i hope we see ward direll. direll is faster than ward im certain. would be interesting to see how ward copes with that