Irelands plan for a future Coach

First topic message reminder :

I maybe miles away and I'm sure people will tell me so but here goes.

When Smit turned Leinster into a SH style team and it showed that Irish players could play as well as anyone at the running game the IRFU put a plan in place to prepare for the next world cup.

Step one
Give Kidney a two year deal so as to keep Ireland ticking over and getting results (nothing good and nothing bad) telling him to keep picking the usual people that could do the job.

Step two
They knew the coaching postions in Ulster and Munster were coming up so they found coaches like Smit who could get the younger players and some of the older players playing fast skilled rugby like Leinster. They gave them two years to get the players up to speed and due to Kidney picking older less skilled players the younger players would have more game time against better players.

Step three
When kidney is finished they bring in a new coach who has the players who are already playing fast skillful rugby and all of them playing a simillar style. This coach would then have an easier job to get the players ready for the world cup.

It is a bit tongue in cheek but it is also serious. By the end of Kidney's contract we will have three teams built on skill, speed and phyiscal in the breakdown. Stand up Mr Bradley who has also been sent away to show that he can play the same game even though he has scottish backs who are notorius for poor play.

Thoughts.

Fly, Joe Schmidt is treble jobbing with Leinster (Head, Defence & Backs). Gaffney was only a part-time coach anyway (like Feek is now - doubling up with Leinster & Ireland). Penney didn't hire a defence coach.

Even the new England Backs coach (Mike Catt - an after thought) is doubling up on coaching the Saxons.

Only the Welsh can afford such luxuries nowadays (and look at how their regions perform in the Heineken Cup )

So to summarise - maybe Ireland will get a new Backs coach (who will also do defence) when Les Kiss's contract is up!

Sin é wrote:Fly, Joe Schmidt is treble jobbing with Leinster (Head, Defence & Backs). Gaffney was only a part-time coach anyway (like Feek is now - doubling up with Leinster & Ireland). Penney didn't hire a defence coach.

Even the new England Backs coach (Mike Catt - an after thought) is doubling up on coaching the Saxons.

Only the Welsh can afford such luxuries nowadays (and look at how their regions perform in the Heineken Cup )

So to summarise - maybe Ireland will get a new Backs coach (who will also do defence) when Les Kiss's contract is up!

It is wrong, Sin é. O'Driscoll thinks it is wrong. Maybe O'Driscoll is suggesting the particular double-jobber we have isn't up to double-jobbing? This is International not Provincial...don't you tell me that all the time? The proverbial step-up that I can't compute? And here we have our International coach, Kidney, still alluding to how he did it at Munster as a comparison for now. Ireland isn't Munster. Don't pretend to me that you believe in everything that you somehow feel duty bound to defend here.

You too would be much happier with a full contingent of coaches (to face serious International competition of which the All Blacks last time was only one). If Kidney stubbornly said he only needs 14 players on a field would you go cover his back and invent reasons for him being right?

An International back, of some repute, says he'd feel more comfortable with dedicated coaches so that everyone knows which 'hat' to go talk to about issues. His boss says it's not a problem, he'll do things his way. Now even if you say 'Hey, Kidney is a coach of some repute himself', that wouldn't matter. Isn't his role to make his players feel comfortable and to give them the tools to feel that way? If O'Driscoll isn't comfortable, I think it's a fair bet the others feel even less so.
But there you go, there's your unity of purpose. And we wonder why the players look so at sea.

Fly, what is wrong - that perhaps the IRFU are counting the pennies?

Do the All Blacks have a Defence Coach?

PS - the players are going to find it difficult at international level if they don't take responsibility for themselves. BOD has also had a few digs at his team mates for not giving their all and disrespecting the Green Jersey.

Sin é wrote:Fly, what is wrong - that perhaps the IRFU are counting the pennies?

Do the All Blacks have a Defence Coach?

PS - the players are going to find it difficult at international level if they don't take responsibility for themselves. BOD has also had a few digs at his team mates for not giving their all and disrespecting the Green Jersey.

They have coaches that work....results. Ours don't. Double jobbers or not. If a double jobber isn't getting results then yes, it is an issue for him, for the players, for us as followers, and for the IRFU. Profits come from winning. Save the pennies somewhere, lose them somewhere else.

About O'Driscoll sideswipe at his teammates - good. I agree with it. I've been saying it on these pages and the old 606 pages since I started here. Province is all very nice and juicily tribal and we all make fun of each other with the ladyboy laughs and turnip laughs. Grand. And when all that is finsihed, there should be a ruthless attention to detail concerning the big one - International. All players wanting it more than anything else and provng it when they go on the field. I've had some big verbal battles with people who didn't feel this way, who felt that Provincial is more important to them and therefore they don't mind the idea that a player would feel the same.

No, he's right and anyone, including you, who says International should be where you bring your extreme A game, is right.

I personally think the players have their heart in the right place(all of them) but they lack confidence in the gameplan they're being asked to play. Many of them don't believe in it. That needs major work. The players have to believe in what they're coming in to play.

The players have to put their back into it. Kidney should be a lot tougher with them - they have it too easy! If Kidney castigated a few of them for missing tackles right left and centre (like EOS with Tommy Bowe & Geordan Murphy), they might get the finger out.

Kidney is far too soft on them.

Sin é wrote:The players have to put their back into it. Kidney should be a lot tougher with them - they have it too easy! If Kidney castigated a few of them for missing tackles right left and centre (like EOS with Tommy Bowe & Geordan Murphy), they might get the finger out.

Kidney is far too soft on them.

AHA! So Kidney does have a coaching weakness. Now there's a beginning. Toughen up, Declan! Stop being so 'understanding' If you don't want bloody Sexton or O'Gara to kick everything back at the attacking Huns, then make sure you bloody well tell them. If you don't want the butterfinger knock-ons and clumsy passing stuff then impose tough conditions in training and drill, drill, drill until you get it to your liking!

Don't go blaming the time of day, the conditions, the opposition, 'these things that happen at this level', the sour milk in the coffee if you're not doing your brutal work at the coal face.

I'd include that the international coaching staff need far more access to their players. Gatland gets the Welsh players for much longer. Simon Easterby was saying that some of his international players would be in international camps 2/3 days before they would be playing a Heineken Cup game. With Ireland & the Provinces, players see the 6Ns as a time to go and have needed operations and not even bother to tell Kidney what they are doing (Cullen last 6Ns).

Disgraceful behaviour.

Cullen - the man who can't get picked? He was telling Kidney that International windows were the best time to do repair work on himself as he's surplus to requirements. Bitter point probably... from a bitter man. You might say he might be one of the players who proves, in his bitterness, that he would have his heart in the right place at International.

Declan didn't know? Declan should have known, it's what a phone is for. He's not going to do a Trapp on these issues, is he, and say he talked with a player last year and felt things were ok this year?

But you're right in the general principle - the system needs tightening and strengthening so that International is the priority.... and done in a way that will serve both though. You don't have to rob one to pay for the other. Good management and communication will keep International coach happy - and the Provincial coaches, who have to do their own balancing act around the cottonwool players.

Fly, it was disgraceful from Cullen. He was captaining the Ireland team a couple of months previous to this happening at the world cup. He should have been asking Kidney was it ok (or at least Schmidt/Leinster team manager) should have got in touch to say he might not be available.

Is Leinster an independent republic now, or would they not even consider discussing this with the IRFU medical people. Probably afraid that the IRFU would pull the plug on bringing in Brad Thorn (supposedly for Leo's cover- I'm sure Brad enjoyed playing with Leo )

Edit: I wonder would Leo have made any difference to Ireland against England (POC injured)? He might have told Ross to man-up!

Sin é wrote:Fly, it was disgraceful from Cullen. He was captaining the Ireland team a couple of months previous to this happening at the world cup. He should have been asking Kidney was it ok (or at least Schmidt/Leinster team manager) should have got in touch to say he might not be available.

Is Leinster an independent republic now, or would they not even consider discussing this with the IRFU medical people. Probably afraid that the IRFU would pull the plug on bringing in Brad Thorn (supposedly for Leo's cover- I'm sure Brad enjoyed playing with Leo )

Edit: I wonder would Leo have made any difference to Ireland against England (POC injured)? He might have told Ross to man-up!

Not supporting Leo, Sin é... I think he takes himself a little too seriously for a young man. But Kidney should be doing his job if Leinster rugby and................ Schmidt (the number of times his name comes up in chats between us!) didn't. He waits for others to ring him?

The IRFU impose their rules and requirements throughout a season on provinces, even the Leinster Republic, and you're telling me they didn't know what was going on with Cullen? Don't buy it, Sin é.

If you don't buy it then, why was Cullen in the squad that was announced. Isn't the Ireland team manager (Kearney) great buds with Mick Dawson (who probably didn't know that Cullen 'needed an operation'.

No wonder the younger players couldn't be bothered when they are set this example by Cullen.

237 days and 5 hours. Beep. I cant wait.

If I buy it, it tells me IRFU, and Kidney, aren't doing their job. If you name a player then I think it reasonable to assume someone talked to someone about the players that were available to be named, based on the medical information that would be required to make such a squad list certain.

If there is lack of communication maybe we could ask Cullen and then Kidney and then IRFU what went on and who said what to who in the lead up to Cullen's decision.

All I know is that it seems to be an EOS/Murphy relationship that has developed between Kidney and Cullen..and we all now know how chilled that relationship was behind the cameras.

I don't recall EOS making Geordan team captain at any stage. Cullen was captaining Ireland 2 months previously.

And now that you mention Geordan - he said before Christmas that he would only make himself available for selection if Ireland were stuck, so its not as if Cullen didn't see someone demonstrating some manners.

Who said what to who, and when, privately during the period, Sin é?

You have it all wrapped up in your head...but research that one and get back to me if and when you truly know.

Gibson wrote:237 days and 5 hours. Beep. I cant wait.

Amen Gibbo, Amen.

You don't get it Fly (as seemingly a quite a few of the Ireland players don't) - Cullen was disrespecting his country.

PS - even if there was some sort of a disagreement between Kidney & Cullen, its highly unlikely that Kidney would have selected him in the first place.

Can someone clear up what this Cullen business is about?

Sin é wrote:You don't get it Fly (as seemingly a quite a few of the Ireland players don't) - Cullen was disrespecting his country.

PS - [b]even if there was some sort of a disagreement between Kidney & Cullen, its highly unlikely that Kidney would have selected him in the first place.

What does that highlighted bit actually mean?

And back to the topic. Tell me what the details are, Sin é. What did IRFU say to Leinster? What did they say to Cullen? What did kidney say to anyone? What did Cullen say? If there is disagreement, and it doesn't take a great deal of thinking to work out that there is, then that means things get said (harsh words) or don't get said (sulking). Did Kidney know Cullen's intentions and still drop his name onto a squad list? What do you know and what do you think you know? You're guessing.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Can someone clear up what this Cullen business is about?

Well Rory from what I can gather it sounds like he let his country down by having an operation he needed, without informing Deccie that he was having it, which then led to a disagreement with Deccie, who subsequently didn't pick Cullen, who he had no intention of picking anyway and even if he did he couldn't because he (Cullen) needed an operation.......

..Just another Sin E argument then basically?

One could be forgiven for coming to that conclusion I suppose.....

No lads, - Cullen chose to need an operation when his country needed him and therefore he let down his country, even though Sin é and Kidney know that he was never going to be picked anyway.

Cullen knew the same, and probably had the hint of that thrown past one of his sizeable ears, but he should have still pretended not to have heard the hint and he should have turned up for duty even though he needed an operation and would not have been picked.

The chose bit is the important bit..that's the treachery.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Can someone clear up what this Cullen business is about?

There you go - its an expansion on BOD saying that some player's prioritise province over country

I'd include that the international coaching staff need far more access to their players. Gatland gets the Welsh players for much longer. Simon Easterby was saying that some of his international players would be in international camps 2/3 days before they would be playing a Heineken Cup game. With Ireland & the Provinces, players see the 6Ns as a time to go and have needed operations and not even bother to tell Kidney what they are doing (Cullen last 6Ns).

Disgraceful behaviour.

Fly got all sensitive about Cullen and starting defending him

Was Kidney considering selecting Cullen during the 6 Nations?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Was Kidney considering selecting Cullen during the 6 Nations?

It doesn't matter whether or not Kidney was selecting him. Lots of guys turn up to help out in training even though there isn't the remotest chance of them being selected (i.e., Rickard Straus). I'm sure Nigel Brady turns up for training every day even though he knows that Rory Best will be selected ahead of him.

As it was, Ireland could have done with him when POC got injured, particularly against England.

No Rory, he was thinking of bringing de Bull & Horan back in to give it an aul lash, remember?
See I can make stories up as well. This is great craic.

Fly asked you to put your money where your mouth was and you didn't. The record is up there for folks to read, Sin é.

I strongly recommend they don't though - in the interests of their own health

Strauss was always going to be considered when he became IQ. Of course he would be at training.

"Hi Declan, sorry I am just letting you know that I am about to get surgery and therefore will be unavailable for the training sessions I wouldn't even be expected to attend. I know I was never actually on your radar and therefore telling you this is a pretty big waste of time but I thought you should know, just in case. I am the captain of Leinster, did you know?"

I don't know Sin, this sounds like another non-event. What was Kidney's response when he found out Cullen was getting surgery and didn't tell him about it? Shouldn't he have already known anyway?

Rory, Cullen was announced in the initial training squad for the 6Ns. You surely don't expect Kidney to know that he is having an operation if he playing for his club and no one has mentioned that he is injured.

You wouldn't be impressed if Stephen Ferris chose to have an operation in the middle of a HCup campaign so that he could be fit to go to tour in NZ even though the IRFU pay Ferris as a centrally contracted player.

This is just an example of what Brian O'Driscoll was complaining about - some players putting their province above their country which Brian things is wrong.

PS - Straus has less chance of getting selected for Ireland than Cullen ever had considering the options Ireland have at hooker.

You are using pretty poor examples here. Ferris is a definite starter for both province and country. Cullen is the captain for his province, but he has no hope of nailing a starting place for his country. And yes to be honest I would expect Kidney to have an idea about what is going on with his players and the provinces.

Strauss will likely be third choice hooker (if not second choice) so I don't really understand that.

Would you be disappointed that a centrally contracted player wasn't in constant contact with medical and coaching staff at Ireland inc (IRFU) for the purposes of closely monitoring his yearly requirements and fitness levels? Who keeps tabs on the players?

Do they tweet in to base when it suits them? "Hey lads, just to let yis know, I'll be on the pizz tonight. How many can I have?"

I think it is a very good example. No player (whether they are a certain starter or a tacklebag holder) should think he is bigger than the team.

Listen to BOD here about what is important.
http://media.newstalk.ie/podcast/67471/?uniqueID=149250

Also discussion tonight with Keith Wood & Gerry Thornley discussing it.

SecretFly wrote:Would you be disappointed that a centrally contracted player wasn't in constant contact with medical and coaching staff at Ireland inc (IRFU) for the purposes of closely monitoring his yearly requirements and fitness levels? Who keeps tabs on the players?

Do they tweet in to base when it suits them? "Hey lads, just to let yis know, I'll be on the pizz tonight. How many can I have?"

I'm sure they are all checked out medically when they come into camp - thats if they do come in.

Or do you expect Kidney to phone them all individually and ask them if they are thinking of having an op during the 6Ns?

Edit: I bet Paul McNaughton (retired Team Manager for both Ireland & Leinster) would have gone through him for a short-cut though. Ireland had a new team manager (Kearney).

Don't mention Gerry Blasted Crystalball Thornley!!!!!!



................................ please.

Sin é wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Was Kidney considering selecting Cullen during the 6 Nations?

It doesn't matter whether or not Kidney was selecting him. Lots of guys turn up to help out in training even though there isn't the remotest chance of them being selected (i.e., Rickard Straus). I'm sure Nigel Brady turns up for training every day even though he knows that Rory Best will be selected ahead of him.

As it was, Ireland could have done with him when POC got injured, particularly against England.

In my opinion too many fans choose their province over their country. I'll never understand this. My guess is Sin you fit into this category? Provincial rivalry is a recent phenomenon that is a product mainly of sweaty journalists clamouring for stories or exaggerating misinformed tripe to create hype and sell papers.

I worry that attendances for Ireland games will suffer, they already have I spose. Drico is dead right to say what he said.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Would you be disappointed that a centrally contracted player wasn't in constant contact with medical and coaching staff at Ireland inc (IRFU) for the purposes of closely monitoring his yearly requirements and fitness levels? Who keeps tabs on the players?

Do they tweet in to base when it suits them? "Hey lads, just to let yis know, I'll be on the pizz tonight. How many can I have?"

I'm sure they are all checked out medically when they come into camp - thats if they do come in.

Or do you expect Kidney to phone them all individually and ask them if they are thinking of having an op during the 6Ns?

So they just turn up like schoolkids ready for the yearly tour, with their packed lunches and their civies on. "Now, let's see - roll call! Healy? - O'Gara? Good lad, up at the top of the bus too, good man - that lad with the lowest centre of gravity in world rugby? Come on, you know who you are, even if I don't! - yeah, you Mc Ferrson. Don't give cheek. Cullen? Cullen? ........... Where's that big eegit? Anyone see him?"
"His mammy told me to tell you that he's pretending to be sick, sir coz he doesn't like Museums and things and doesn't want to be blushing with all them girls and things that he doesn't want to meet, sir"

Sin - what do you think Kidney's job is when Ireland aren't playing games?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - what do you think Kidney's job is when Ireland aren't playing games?

Going to meetings with IRFU, writing reports, looking at videos attending games, going to funerals (he was at the Spence family one last week) etc. etc. I don't really know - I do know that he travels a lot and bearing in mind he is away from home for a few months every year, he probably gets some time to spend with his family.

I would guess that a week or so before a camp are particularly hectic.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Sin - what do you think Kidney's job is when Ireland aren't playing games?

He's into window cleaning with Warren..although that's been put on hold now of course.

Actually, I do feel sorry for poor Warren... needed another patch up operation on his ankles. I jest but I don't jest at the truth of his injury. Hope he's back fully ready to kick player's asses come Lions time.

Rory I'm still trying to work out what Kidneys job is when Ireland are playing games.....

Also Sin I think it is a bit ridiculous to mention "attending funerals" as part of Kidney's job description.. the Spence tragedy was a freak accident.

rodders wrote:Rory I'm still trying to work out what Kidneys job is when Ireland are playing games.....

He probably does the same kind of things as Graham Henry and Conor O'Shea do

Edit: Kidney doesn't usually do tv analysis the night before Ireland are playing though (unlike Conor O'Shea with 'quins).

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Also Sin I think it is a bit ridiculous to mention "attending funerals" as part of Kidney's job description.. the Spence tragedy was a freak accident.

I only mentioned it because he was at it representing the IRFU last week and while the Spence tragedy was very high profile, there would be lots of people passing on who have been involved in rugby which would require that the IRFU would send a representive.

GunsGerms wrote:Provincial rivalry is a recent phenomenon that is a product mainly of sweaty journalists clamouring for stories or exaggerating misinformed tripe to create hype and sell papers.

No it is a recent phenomenon that is a product of the Heineken Cup. It continued to grow and grow. By the time Munster won it in 2006 it was a huge big deal. Leinster were sad they werent winning as they felt they had a team as good as Munster and then the clamours came from Leinster to toughen up and get forwards to match their backs. We then saw Leinsters dominance and Munster get sad they werent winning anymore. And Ulster begin to feel left out.

The Heineken Cup caused provincial rivalry. Not "sweaty jounalists".

haha love this quote


"After quite a number of fruitless attempts to park her car correctly, Annie Hall (Diane Keaton) is reassured by Woody Allen, "Don't worry we can walk to the kerb from here." How far has Declan Kidney parked his team away from its designated place?"

Good auld Franno.


Have the games or dates been announced for the american tour yet or is it way too early? Hopefully be in the states during the summer and would be class to go to a game out there.

I don't think its a product of the Heineken Cup. Ulster filled Lansdowne Rd in '99 and Munster had 6,000 supporters down in Toulouse in 2000.

Leinster (south Dublin) were never really bothered about the Heineken Cup - their team was Ireland which suited the IRFU because they all went to Ireland games. The 06' semi final had a seismic affect on Leinster supporters - they felt humiliated by being outnumbered by Munster supporters in their home venue. After that they got organised and discovered that they got the same product they got with Ireland and for half the price. The IRFU's big competition is Leinster. They were never that dependent on either Ulster or Munster to sell Ireland tickets.

This is hurting the IRFU/rugby in Ireland because the IRFU were dependent on those south dublin rugby supporters to fill the coffers.

Stag

Yes obviously the Heineken and its universal appeal provides a platform for rivalry to exist. However, the reason rivalries, in particular the Leinster Munster rivalry is so potent is mostly based on complete nonsense written by Jonny come lately pseudo rugby pundits that don't know the first thing about the game. Not the watered down Thornleyesque version that you seem to believe.

Surely Leinster would choose Toulouse as their main rival if replicating success was the motivating factor? The problem with the ridiculous prov rivalries is fans seem to identify with their province more and Ireland less.