T20 World Cup: Live Matches Discussion

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Please feel free to discuss every ball of the 2012 T20 World Cup here.

Who do you think will win?

slinger. was always going to be too much for this selection.

Great effort Swanny, but it was just too much to ask.

All over bar the shouting now

Dernbach needs four straight sixes..

wow, you can always rely on Dernbache.

Too little too late in the end, but a fine effort from Swann.

So the Champions are out without making it to the semis

the former champions.

we know it wasn't close to a champion team. Hasn't been a top 5 batting side for over a year and has slowly fallen to pieces. Time to clear out and start again.

Sri Lanka and West Indies are through, and Australia very nearly there. Very dificult for SA, it has to be one of India and Pakistan.

wow, pretty shocking to see the players who live in those conditions doing so well in them

Barring a few notible exceptions, this really was a England 2nd XI. Made up of a bunch of bit players who are not international standard. Time to recall most of our test players (if they want to play). Bell, Prior, KP and maybe Cook. I'd always play Jimmy before Dernbach. Or we just turn it into a u21 team....

Getting Cook to open and no doubt captain the side won't be such a bad idea. I would certainly have not said this a year ago, but Cook has evolved a lot since as a limited overs player. England have lost early wickets throughout the tournament, Cook would give them some stability at the top. And with their best batsman, one of the very best in the world coming back, a lot of the issues at the top could be addressed.
They have to forget Dernbach, Bresnan, Anderson, anyone could be a better option.

Well, a few months ago when making early predictions for this tournament I had England as amongst the favourites, and even just before the tournament thought we stood a chance because of our bowling and the fact that our one-day cricket has been pretty good all year.

As it happens things have gone wrong and as the tournament went on it started to become clear to me that, whilst not impossible, winning would be very tough.

So, what to do going forward?

The team suffer from a lack of quality experienced players, pure and simple. In 2010 we had KP but we also had Collingwood who, although not being the best contributor, understands T20 cricket better than pretty much anyone in the world and provided some stability. Compared to our rivals our best players haven't adapted to T20 so well, although perhaps that is partly down to the selectors not backing them to do so.

I'd start with Prior. He isn't a perfect one-day player but most of his failures have been in ODIs rather than T20s and he's superb for Sussex. Bell maybe too, although it remains difficult to pick him when he plays so little T20 cricket. Hopefully KP will be back on board too. I wouldn't go with Cook - I think his games a bit technical for T20, and he doesn't quite have the range of strokeplay that the others I've mentioned do.

A top six of Bell, KP, Wright, Morgan, Prior, Buttler fits the bill for me. I wouldn't have a problem with keeping Hales instead of Bell, and Bairstow shouldn't be too far away either.

Samit Patel's bowling wasn't up to scratch in this tournament. I'd bring in Azeem Rafiq, who offers a more defensive type of off-spinner to Swann and also bats well.

In the seam department Dernbach has been found wanting - corporal's suggestion that he's very good 25%, good 25% of the time, poor 25% of the time and awful 25% of the time is probably correct, and at international level, where you might come across a rampant batsman even on your good day, that's not good enough. Broad needs to take responsibility at the death, and I'd recall Anderson (he wants to play and none of the other best Test seamers in the world have had much problem in T20). Chris Wood is a wildcard contender here - left-arm and bowls well at the death.

So, overall my XI for the matches in India would be Bell or Hales, KP, Wright, Morgan, Prior, Buttler, Broad, Swann, Rafiq, Finn, Anderson. Bell/ Hales, Bairstow, Bresnan, Wood and Briggs on the subs bench.

I like the suggestion of Raffiq. He's also a brilliant fielder.

I remain convinced until I see any other evidence that Cook simply doesn't have enough shots to succeed in today's T20 environment. Bell does, and maybe should have gone to the tournament instead of Lumb. England would have loved him instead of Bopara today.

Prior? Maybe worth another shot given Kieswetter's struggles and the lack of any other reasonable option, but his scoring areas are limited. If he plays it has to be at the top of the order, and frankly I'd back Bell and Hales to score more runs. Without even mentioning the other guy.

Chris Wood? I'm not sure he's international standard, he just seems like a poor man's Dernbach to me.

I think a lot of criticism of Patel has been a bit unfair. He's a useful T20 player. Unfortunately the better teams took a liking to his bowling.

Hales had a decent tournament, he got a decent start more often than not and was a bit unlucky today. More importantly he looks fairly compact and has a good range of strokes. He's still learning, and could do with more experience at the top of the order.

What to make of Wright? 2 good innings out of 5 is not a bad T20 return, and he probably deserves a decent run, but I'm still not sure he can play either pace bowling or quality spin.

Bairstow is a worry. He's clearly got a few issues to work on. He did to get back into the test side so I'm sure he will, but right now?

Buttler looked a lot more at ease than Bairstow, but got himself out occasionally in silly ways. He looks a quality player in the making to me, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him involved in the longer formats in the future either.

Morgan is Morgan, he is one of the few players in world cricket who can play the kind of innings he did against the West Indies. His form and timing were in general out during the tournament, and his dismissal today was really the end.

Broad, Swann and Finn all bowled well. No issues there.

Dernbach has been incredibly up and down, good performances against South Africa but awful against India and now here. I certainly don't think he should bowl more than 1 over spells. I'm not willing to write him off just yet, but he shouldn't have played today.

Briggs has a future, but msp is right in that let's not pretend he did fantastically well either. Tough for the guy to come in for a do or die match.

I was confused at times by England's tactics. Not only the muddled selections and drastic upheaval of the batting order, and Dernbach being used all the time at the death, but also why the insistence on chasing? Field settings weren't always spot on either.

Overall it's been a dreadful 12 months for England. It clearly goes beyond picking or dropping one player. There'll have to be some analysis and review. I think it would be a shame for Flower to go now after all he's done, but he needs to take responsibility and come up with a plan to take things forward. Other individual coaches as well.

More importantly the players need to take a long look at themselves, they clearly haven't become poor players overnight so why aren't they performing? Why are they making basic errors be it in the field, with the bat or with the ball? Why was Dernbach's thinking so muddled in that last over against India, why was he bowling full and wide when the conditions were crying out for cutters dragged into the pitch?

There has clearly been as Shelsey said a lack of senior players. No one has put their hand up be it with the bat, or in the field when things were tough. For that reason I think Anderson will help. Broad and Swann need to take more responsibility. And either Bell or ... will add much needed substance to the batting.

It's not a time of doom and gloom or knee-jerk reactions. But honest reflexion and a change in direction is needed.

wow MSP someone else has come to my way of thinking about cook..

Totally agree

Mike Selig wrote:

I was confused at times by England's tactics. Not only the muddled selections and drastic upheaval of the batting order, and Dernbach being used all the time at the death, but also why the insistence on chasing? Field settings weren't always spot on either.

Overall it's been a dreadful 12 months for England. It clearly goes beyond picking or dropping one player. There'll have to be some analysis and review. I think it would be a shame for Flower to go now after all he's done, but he needs to take responsibility and come up with a plan to take things forward. Other individual coaches as well.

More importantly the players need to take a long look at themselves, they clearly haven't become poor players overnight so why aren't they performing? Why are they making basic errors be it in the field, with the bat or with the ball? Why was Dernbach's thinking so muddled in that last over against India, why was he bowling full and wide when the conditions were crying out for cutters dragged into the pitch?

There has clearly been as Shelsey said a lack of senior players. No one has put their hand up be it with the bat, or in the field when things were tough. For that reason I think Anderson will help. Broad and Swann need to take more responsibility. And either Bell or ... will add much needed substance to the batting.

It's not a time of doom and gloom or knee-jerk reactions. But honest reflexion and a change in direction is needed.

I refer to the part of Mike's post above and others - in particular, Shelsey's comment about the team suffering 'from a lack of quality experienced players'. I do wonder how much a part captaincy plays here.

I'm not so much having a dig at Broad but making the point that his lack of captaincy experience (and that of the other England players) is pretty inevitable and probably unhelpful. With the advent of central contracts, England cricketers now play very little cricket apart from when they are on international duty. No longer do they have the time and opportunity to hone captaincy skills when playing for their county. This may be considered a small price to pay for all the advantages to England of the central contract system. Perhaps that is so. However, I don't consider it helpful for him or England that Broad is effectively having to learn on the job in a World Cup Final tournament.

I was gobsmacked when Cook was appointed ODI captain last year following the retirement of Strauss and tended to agree with Michael Atherton. Even when Cook played a couple of fine hands against Sri Lanka I wasn't really convinced. But then he was able to bring about that refreshing attitude and ability to make quick runs against India both home and away and against Pakistan in UAE as well. Even when he didn't get many big scores in ODIs last summer he did alright and never really got bogged down that much.
Bell on the other hand, to be honest I am not entirely convinced about him as ODI opener. Sure he scored aton against the WI and did it quickly enough and got a couple of flying starts against SA. But most of those quick starts were never converted, and when he played a big innings whether it was the 75 against Australia or the 88 against South Africa he really took quite a lot of balls I think the 75 came of 113 balls. Bell's range of shots is richer than that of Cook, but in terms of limited overs temprament, I would rate the latter higher.
I had a look at their T-20 record, Cook's average and strike rate are in fact better than those of Bell. He strikes at 128, and even if he could manage around 120 with the kind of consistency that he has been able to show, I think that could be a job well done. Cook playing would mean that extra bit of experience, and there won't be any split captaincy issues.

I'm well aware of the merits of Cook's T20 record as opposed to Bell's. I'm not very interested in them. Having watched Cook make runs in (domestic) T20s he does it by scoring in his areas (mainly off his pads and through point or cover off wide deliveries) because the bowling at county standard is in the main average and often loose. As the game has moved on, and bowlers have figured out that just back of a length aimed at middle-and-off is probably your best stock ball, I think Cook would struggle to score at anything much over 100 in internationals.

Cook has essentially 4 main scoring shots: cut, cover drive, flick and pull. This is not a criticism, Graham Thorpe was a wonderful player and he had essentially 3 shots. Cook can also play the pick-up accross the line but we have seen in this tournament that it is low percentage. Bell on the other hand can moreover play the late cut (so 3rd man inside the circle becomes a risky option), backfoot drive, or come down the pitch and hit over the top pretty much anywhere from cover to square leg.

From memory Bell was a reasonable T20I opener. I think he can score 40 off 30 balls fairly regularly, batting just a bit more aggressively than he does in ODIs. Cook on the other hand is I think more a 50 off 50 kind of player, he's more likely to bat for longer, but I don't think he can score at the rate Bell can, unless he develops his game further (e.g. by using his feet to the medium-pacers).

guildfordbat wrote:

I refer to the part of Mike's post above and others - in particular, Shelsey's comment about the team suffering 'from a lack of quality experienced players'. I do wonder how much a part captaincy plays here.

I'm not so much having a dig at Broad but making the point that his lack of captaincy experience (and that of the other England players) is pretty inevitable and probably unhelpful. With the advent of central contracts, England cricketers now play very little cricket apart from when they are on international duty. No longer do they have the time and opportunity to hone captaincy skills when playing for their county. This may be considered a small price to pay for all the advantages to England of the central contract system. Perhaps that is so. However, I don't consider it helpful for him or England that Broad is effectively having to learn on the job in a World Cup Final tournament.

It's an interesting one. There are to me two issues: tactics and leadership, both on and I would guess off the field. The tactics stem from the coach and captain (pre-game) and are then adapted by the captain as the game progresses, possibly helped by input from senior players. By leadership I mean someone who puts a consoling arm around a bowler who's just seen a perfectly good ball smashed over the ropes, on the contrary who has a go at one who's not thinking straight, who gees the side up in the field, puts his hand up with the bat. Off-field, the leader takes control in the team meeting, points out the hard truths, etc...

Your captain is usually a leader, but it's important to have more leaders than just the captain. For example England's ashes winning test team down under had Strauss (who was a leader long before he was captain), Collingwood, Prior, Swann and Anderson. All natural leaders. This T20 team: Broad (ish - Broad doesn't strike me as a natural leader), Swann, erm... I wonder whether a few of Broad's more obvious tactical errors stemmed not only from lack of experience as a captain but also from being under pressure, and trying too much to be a leader rather than a captain (the two of course are linked - a more experienced captain would have balanced the two roles better). Particularly for a young captain, and particularly in T20 where the game moves so fast it is a tough trade.

Vaughan for example was not a great leader, but had guys like Flintoff, Hussain (until Strauss), Strauss (after Hussain), Hoggard, even Giles who were good leaders to help out. He was also a natural tactician. I am not sure Broad is.

Mike Cook and Bell both would have faced the average county bowling, and still there is a significant enough difference in their respective records. The way Cook's game evolved as an ODI batsman suggests that he could really be up to a challenge. England's top order hasn't been giving any consistent starts, so if Cook could bat a bit long and put a score on the board, guys like Pietersen and Morgan can take things over from there on, and they could also use hitters like Buttler down the order.
Bell's limited over temprament is still suspect to me.

So much to debate... it makes me dizzy.

All very valid points Mike. Every great team needs a standout in every position - no weak spots, cunning leadership, a bit of luck here and there and a happy, confident dressing room. It kind of ebbs and flows between all countries though. One team will have a tough trott, turmoil, go from high to low, etc whilst another will see blue skies and improving results. It's like an international tag-team thing.

It will sort itself out over time. Good old England has taken a bit of a battering of late. I expect them to bounce back in 2013 and be there or thereabouts near the top of the heap. Some of your younger guys have now already had this international exposure at the highest level and it will benefit the team in the years to come.

What are your thoughts about today's match?

I feel confident if we can dominate again and get on top early. This team hasn't really surprised me but they seem to have clicked at the right time. Pakistan probably has the wood on us bust most contests are usually pretty tight. Whoever executes the plan best and takes advantage of the opportunities given will prevail. Best of luck to both teams. I've tipped India to defeat SA in the next match.

Gonna be supporting australia and my fav player(non english) WATSON..

You have a player that is gonna be a legend of the game I feel- maybe one day will be up there with kallis!

Nice to have you on board, mysti. Just remember... no sledging!

I hope they know what they are doing. I would have rather seen us bat and try and post a big score.
Maybe they're more confident of chasing a score than I am though.

nothing wrong with a bit of sledging

great start for the Aussies, Starc trapping Hafeez plumb LBW with one that swung back. 5-1 after 7 balls.

should have been 2 though, Maxwell dropping a relatively straightforward slip catch.

Come on AUSTRALIA!!!!!

Last 3 overs... is 150 gettable? 123/4 after 17.

Australia struggling bigtime to chase 150 here. 58-4 after 12. The top heavy batting had to have its share of trouble at some point, and seems like today is the day. Only Hussey remains, but 92 of 48 would be very very dificult from now on.

I don't really support Australia most of the times, but today an Australian win would have done a bit of good to India. Yeah anyways, Pakistan very much in control in this game, I hope Australia bat out their 20 overs and put up something decent on the board, so that India would be taking the field with some hope in tact for the last match of the super 8. Have a feeling that this may not be India's day though.

I think Aus were guilty of being caught in two minds and half thinking about just getting to that 112 to get them into the semis.

Maxwell they said could hit the long ball, but he too has failed. How much of a knocking would it take for Australia to come down below India and Pak in terms of Net Run Rate

like I said, 112 guarantees them a SF berth (which I assume means they're still ahead of Pakistan).

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I think Aus were guilty of being caught in two minds and half thinking about just getting to that 112 to get them into the semis.

Another couple of wickets and Aus will really struggle to get 112 ....

Aussies making England look quite good at the moment....

112 now looks more straightforward. An Aussie win still a long way off ....

Aussie win now impossible, but barring a disaster they will get to 112. Then it's all down to India vs SA. SA are out by the way...

and there it is, Hussey cuts for four, fifty and qualification for the semis.

Safe to say from the way Australia have played these last 3 overs only one thing on Hussey's mind.

We knew Australia were top heavy and would struggle on the slow turners. The question is whether Warner, Watson and Hussey can fire in the last two matches.

great effort from Pakistan it must be said: they've given themselves a decent chance at qualifying for the semis here. India need to win, and win well to qualify.

what Mike said,

Calculator time.
As I said though I don't have a great deal of hope for India here. Winning against SA won't be easy, particularly as South Africa have absolutely nothing to lose. Their pace bowling unit will be dificult to handle for the Indians. Winning with a huge margin could only be possible if the Indian spinners can do something like what they did to England.

We need to win by 31 runs or with 4 overs to spare. Impossible/

ShankyCricket wrote:If Pak beat Aus, which is quite likely(Watson is due a bad game) then our match vs SA becomes a dead rubber for them as they'd be out and thats when they'd be at their most dangerous. I'd rather see us face SA when they have a good chance of qualification as that increases the likelihood of a "choke". Amla is due for some runs. And he loves our bowlers. I am a bit worried.

Useful call by ShankyCricket, the poster formerly called shankythebiggestengfan and now one of the biggest India fans.

question to shanky: now that it seems likely that Voldemort will make a return to the England side, will you be switching allegiances again?

surely the winning margin depends on the first innings score anyway? but if it's roughly 31 runs or 4 overs then that's a huge ask, can't see India managing that unless SA have a bad day.

Shanky's right, SA has nothing to choke on. Either the Indian spinners have to have a fabulous game or Virender Sehwag wil have to bat 15 overs. Highly unlikely.

An unchanged India are batting after losing the toss. SA have brought back Albie Morkel for Wayne Parnell and Richard Levi goes out for Faf du Plessis to come in.
Now that India are batting both the unlikely situations have to come through. Even more dificult.

Steyn and Morkel are giving absolutely nothing away. 22 without loss after 3 overs India.

anyone think theres a chance India go too hard here?
obviously very hard agaisnt Steyn and Morkel, but after surely they have to swing.
Have to think 160 minimum needed (maybe more with their bowling attack)

With Gambhir gone early, there is greater pressure on Kohli and the rest.

big wicket that

Sehwag gone to a pretty awful swipe, and though it's early days I fear that India's hopes go with him. 160 an absolute minimum here for India (and even then SA would only need 128 to knock them out).

Hmmm, that fat lady is warming up her vocal cords even earlier today than yesterday