Barry John talking about the Lions -' At this moment I would say England will be the nucleus of the squad'

The squad selected for 2013 will be the players in form, whatever nationality they are.

Warren won’t be affected by nationality and he will have a criteria that he will want from his players.

People talk about the last time the Lions were in Australia with Graham Henry and how he picked too many Welsh players.

There was confusion in selection but I think Warren is too shrewd to fall into that trap.

There could be a record number of Welsh players on the tour because there are more players selected for a tour. But that is only if they are performing at the time.

At this moment I would say England will be the nucleus of the squad and maybe even the spine of the team.

It will be the Six Nations when every match will become an unofficial Lions trial because every British and Irish player will want to go on that tour and get one over on their opposite number. The Lions auditions will start with the autumn internationals but this will be early days.

Wales will have a more pressing situation as they look to finish in the top four of the IRB world rankings at the end of the year in order to gain the best draw for the World Cup in 2015.

Rob Howley will be in charge for the opening couple of matches where they face Argentina first.

Wales will hope the Pumas are tired after the end of their first southern hemisphere Rugby Championship campaign.

But it could swing the other way because Argentina will have been together for a long time.

Samoa will be no mugs and if you just go back a year they perhaps could and should have beaten Wales and knocked them out of the World Cup if it had not been for a bit of magic from Leigh Halfpenny.

Wales have to start these two matches well before they face the two big southern hemisphere superpowers Australia and New Zealand and look for that elusive scalp when Gatland will be back in charge.

Home advantage will hopefully help and Wales are a competitive side now.

But they still have a tendency to give away silly penalties at crucial times and they lose concentration for five or 10 minutes and get punished.

New Zealand and Australia don’t drop their guard and you could see that on the summer tour where Wales lost three Tests to the Wallabies to the combined total of 11 points.

One key player who Wales were missing Down Under was Lions centre Jamie Roberts and it was great to see him back in action and scoring last weekend for the Blues.

Jamie has been in the headlines because his regional contract is up at the end of the season and he has been linked with a move to France.

As a player, Jamie has to go overseas and the regions can’t compare with their French rivals.

Jamie has no option because he is an intelligent young man and once he has all his medical certificates he can go over there for three or four years.

The life of a top rugby player is getting shorter with all the physical demands and the top stars need to maximise their potential.

I was approached by an Italian club when I was playing but back in those days the power base was Wales and any international ambitions you did have you had to be around here.

I would not criticise any player for going to France in fact I would applaud it because they have to have earned the right.

I would not be worried about Jamie. I would be more worried about players like George North and Alex Cuthbert going after him.

We are now a breeding ground for the French clubs because the regions can’t compete with the Euro because there is no money in the kitty.

We are still finding out the outcome of this review but I think it is a waste of time and money because there is nothing they can tell us that will change the situation and the pot of money won’t increase.

Welsh rugby supporters just have to accept that now.'


Some interesting comments there.

Clever wording. England will be the "Nucleus".



Does he mean "a small but indispensible group of men"...and is that a compliment?

Or does he mean that they will be constantly in reverse polarity to the rest of the team, with an overall contribution measured on a nano-scale?

Poor science AWOP
The nucleus is made up of protons and neutrons. Protons have a positive charge, neutrons have no charge and then the positive charge is balanced off by the negative charge of the electrons.

So that would suggest the English players will have a positive effect or no effect on the team but this positive effect will be negated by the non English electrons.

This model of atomic Lions rugby was first proved by New Zealander Sir Rutherford and will be confirmed by New Zealander Sir Gatland using the same gold foil/Wallaby jersey experiment.

I wonder who he is referring to? The thing i've noticed, is that when you see Lions threads on here and when pundits pick their own teams there is a serious lack of England players in the starting team. Maybe unfairly so but not many England starters seems to be the concencus. So like I said, I wonder.

Honestly what a lame article, there is nothing in it but facile opinion that anyone who knew a little about welsh rugby could express; the guy had had little to do with welsh rugby for 40 years and it shows, it lacks any analysis or reference to evidence to support his claims regarding england forming the nucleus/spine/testicles of the Lions squad let alone the team.

What a load of old bollicks.

.... and let the home nations mud slinging begin. This is why i get more & more disillusioned with the Lions.

One thing is for certain, with all the injuries that clubs endure during the season, it is highly unlikely to accurately depict what the squad makeup would be.

nganboy wrote:Poor science AWOP
The nucleus is made up of protons and neutrons. Protons have a positive charge, neutrons have no charge and then the positive charge is balanced off by the negative charge of the electrons.

So that would suggest the English players will have a positive effect or no effect on the team but this positive effect will be negated by the non English electrons.

This model of atomic Lions rugby was first proved by New Zealander Sir Rutherford and will be confirmed by New Zealander Sir Gatland using the same gold foil/Wallaby jersey experiment.

Oh c'mon someone do the splitting the atom joke...

anotherworldofpain wrote:

nganboy wrote:Poor science AWOP
The nucleus is made up of protons and neutrons. Protons have a positive charge, neutrons have no charge and then the positive charge is balanced off by the negative charge of the electrons.

So that would suggest the English players will have a positive effect or no effect on the team but this positive effect will be negated by the non English electrons.

This model of atomic Lions rugby was first proved by New Zealander Sir Rutherford and will be confirmed by New Zealander Sir Gatland using the same gold foil/Wallaby jersey experiment.

Oh c'mon someone do the splitting the atom joke...

KABOOM!

Yeah there seems to be a lack of evidence or insightful analysis in it. There could well be a lot of English players in the team - though I would have thought the 'spine' may be formed by other nations - maybe even Wales (though I wouldn't be surprised to see less Welsh than Ireland/England).

And I'd like to know where this article originated, but it sounds very much like a Western Mail article with little evidence or insightful opinion and even though a Lions article, it's heavily slanted to the Welsh. It also has it's (patented trademark) claim of Wales being a breeding ground for Welsh clubs - with again little evidence...

Whichever nation delivers in the Autumn and the 6 Nations will have the core group of players.

There have been more English than Welsh Irish or Scots for the last five or six tours.

RE the Spine, presume he means 2, 8, 9 , 10, 15 possibly correct. 9, 10, 15 England have very good candidates in Care, Flood and Foden.

True, but then so do Ireland - Best, Murray, Sexton, Kearney and even with Wales I think Halfpenny's got a decent shout at 15, Phillips at 9 and Owens at 2. 10 seems to be anyone's jersey at the moment so you could have Laidlaw, Sexton, Youngs, Priestland or any of the other contenders there.

"The nucleus is the very dense region consisting of protons and neutrons at the center of an atom.The term nucleus is from the Latin word nucleus, a diminutive of nux ("nut"), meaning the kernel (i.e., the "small nut") . "

Well this rules out Hartley at 2. Diminutive nut might be little Shane if he can make another comeback, or Stringer at 9.

I think nut describes Hartley quite well

Hartley insufficiently diminutive.

mowgli wrote:Honestly what a lame article, there is nothing in it but facile opinion that anyone who knew a little about welsh rugby could express; the guy had had little to do with welsh rugby for 40 years and it shows, it lacks any analysis or reference to evidence to support his claims regarding england forming the nucleus/spine/testicles of the Lions squad let alone the team.

What a load of old bollicks.

Harsh but 100% accurate. Nothing more than the generic waffling of a hopelessly out of touch old fella, bless him. You expect this sort of thing on 606v2, but goodness knows why the 'professional' media indulge him.

maestegmafia wrote:There have been more English than Welsh Irish or Scots for the last five or six tours.

RE the Spine, presume he means 2, 8, 9 , 10, 15 possibly correct. 9, 10, 15 England have very good candidates in Care, Flood and Foden.

I reckon he's getting in early so when the team are referred to as "Spineless" in the media later, he can pin it on the English...

Smirnoffpriest wrote:I think nut describes Hartley quite well

As long as it is not the same size as his brain.

An honest question not designed to inflame anything:

Why do so many Welsh posters and pundits prefix "Lions" to a player as a form of aggrandisement, whilst simultaneously holding the contradictory view that Lions selection is a political mess and unreflective of the "best" players from the British and Irish teams?

One key player who Wales were missing Down Under was Lions centre Jamie Roberts

Why not, "Wales were missing Jamie Roberts." ?

The last Lions tour was near 4 years ago now, there's been a world cup since, and frankly, the Lions lost all of the tours in living memory, so it's not something you really want to be claiming as some kind of pedigree.

Anyone who knows anything about rugby would realise that Jamie Roberts was a loss to Wales because frankly he's the best center they have. So what does Lions Center, add to the point?

Just a question.

anotherworldofpain wrote:An honest question not designed to inflame anything:

Why do so many Welsh posters and pundits prefix "Lions" to a player as a form of aggrandisement, whilst simultaneously holding the contradictory view that Lions selection is a political mess and unreflective of the "best" players from the British and Irish teams?

One key player who Wales were missing Down Under was Lions centre Jamie Roberts

Why not, "Wales were missing Jamie Roberts." ?

The last Lions tour was near 4 years ago now, there's been a world cup since, and frankly, the Lions lost all of the tours in living memory, so it's not something you really want to be claiming as some kind of pedigree.

Anyone who knows anything about rugby would realise that Jamie Roberts was a loss to Wales because frankly he's the best center they have. So what does Lions Center, add to the point?

Just a question.

I don't think it is necessarily aggrandisement, it is merely a reference, such as you would have, World cup winning fullback Frans Steyn has been injured. It is merely a reference.

Jamie 'Lions Centre/Medical Student/Trainee Doctor/Glenn Quagmire' Roberts.

Poor boy is never referred to as just 'Jamie Roberts'.

Casartelli wrote:Jamie 'Lions Centre/Medical Student/Trainee Doctor/Glenn Quagmire' Roberts.

Poor boy is never referred to as just 'Jamie Roberts'.

giggedy!

Biltong wrote:

anotherworldofpain wrote:An honest question not designed to inflame anything:

Why do so many Welsh posters and pundits prefix "Lions" to a player as a form of aggrandisement, whilst simultaneously holding the contradictory view that Lions selection is a political mess and unreflective of the "best" players from the British and Irish teams?

One key player who Wales were missing Down Under was Lions centre Jamie Roberts

Why not, "Wales were missing Jamie Roberts." ?

The last Lions tour was near 4 years ago now, there's been a world cup since, and frankly, the Lions lost all of the tours in living memory, so it's not something you really want to be claiming as some kind of pedigree.

Anyone who knows anything about rugby would realise that Jamie Roberts was a loss to Wales because frankly he's the best center they have. So what does Lions Center, add to the point?

Just a question.

I don't think it is necessarily aggrandisement, it is merely a reference, such as you would have, World cup winning fullback Frans Steyn has been injured. It is merely a reference.

"World cup winning fullback Frans Steyn" is "just a reference"? and not a term of aggrandisement?

C'mon now. Are you saying that with a straight face?

Not a grin on my face.

AWOP it adds drama, it is like when Commentators say the World champions when referring to the All Blacks, or Tri Nation champions when referring to the Wallabies, or the Thugs when referring to the Springboks.

There is exactly the problem with the rugby championship.

Are the All Blacks now "Rugby Championship champions New Zealand"? or "Rugby Champions New Zealand"?

I feel the first has two many champions in it to be taken seriously, and the second is ambiguous.

In the name of brevity, I ask that Lions Center Jamie Roberts is just "Jamie Roberts", World and Rugby Championship champions New Zealand are just "New Zeland", Rugby World Cup Runners Up France just become "France" and South Africa are just referred to as "The Thugs".

I suppose the all Blacks should be referred to as the Mighty Champion team to the 2nd degree and currently the world number one heavy weight champion of the world.

We are fine with just being the thugs. In fact I prefer Neanderthals, at least that sounds Primal.

I suppose the Wallabies can be the "Casualty Ward"

mowgli wrote:Honestly what a lame article, there is nothing in it but facile opinion that anyone who knew a little about welsh rugby could express; the guy had had little to do with welsh rugby for 40 years and it shows, it lacks any analysis or reference to evidence to support his claims regarding england forming the nucleus/spine/testicles of the Lions squad let alone the team.

What a load of old bollicks.

I think in summary Barry John is saying that right now there are a group of England players that are ahead of others on form. However, the serious time for selection comes in the AIs & 6Ns. I think he is entitled to his opinion & for a great Welsh rugby player saying that about English players I take as a compliment.

Yup true I understand Big Trev - but you must admit for it to be taken as a serious article he'd need to say which England players are playing better, and why/how they form the nucleus of the team ie is it because they play in essential positions fly half/hooker/prop ect or because they are the more senior/respected players who have been there done that and as a result the squad will be molded around these leadership figures.

I'm not saying he's wrong or right, I can't say anything without him having justified his claims.

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

mowgli wrote:Honestly what a lame article, there is nothing in it but facile opinion that anyone who knew a little about welsh rugby could express; the guy had had little to do with welsh rugby for 40 years and it shows, it lacks any analysis or reference to evidence to support his claims regarding england forming the nucleus/spine/testicles of the Lions squad let alone the team.

What a load of old bollicks.

I think in summary Barry John is saying that right now there are a group of England players that are ahead of others on form. However, the serious time for selection comes in the AIs & 6Ns. I think he is entitled to his opinion & for a great Welsh rugby player saying that about English players I take as a compliment.

But if you think he's saying that then surely you have in mind a number of players who are ahead of their Welsh, Irish and Scottish counterparts on form?

Considering that the majority of the spine of any successful team wear numbers between one and nine and eleven and fifteen on their backs. I would not judge Mr John on his opinion.

He has never been quoted and regarded with esteemed knowledge on anything other than fluid and wiley flyhalf play. Something he was the King of.

Ahh, clever King John playing at reverse psychology. He spots that his compatriots need a bit of a public kick up the rrrss to gee them gee'd up up a little to achieve even greater performances. What better way to motivate than to suggest the English cousins may be stealing their B&IL lunch ? haha good one YRH King John.

gregortree wrote:Ahh, clever King John playing at reverse psychology. He spots that his compatriots need a bit of a public kick up the rrrss to gee them gee'd up up a little to achieve even greater performances. What better way to motivate than to suggest the English cousins may be stealing their B&IL lunch ? haha good one YRH King John.

The appropriate response is:

Yes, you are right. England will make up 95% of the team. Ireland offer nothing unless you want to lose 60-0. Scotland have their own victory over a SH nation for the next decade and Wales had three shots and weren't good enough. England all the way.

So he (Barry John) thinks that England will be tha bulk of the Lions does he?

I would like to remind Barry John that Warren Gatland is in charge of the Lions next year. Now although i would like to think that WG will be Neutral when it comes to selecting the squad for the Lions....But i cannot help but think he will favour Wales a little more than any other Nation.

However for Myself i do not care wich country provides the Bulk of the squad. Just as long as the players that are chosen, ARE THE BEST PLAYERS IN THEIR POSITION.

I have said it before their is a lot of rugby still to play between now and when the Lions squad gets picked....So lets wait and see witch country will have the most inform players sell we.

majesticimperialman wrote:So he (Barry John) thinks that England will be tha bulk of the Lions does he?

I would like to remind Barry John that Warren Gatland is in charge of the Lions next year. Now although i would like to think that WG will be Neutral when it comes to selecting the squad for the Lions....But i cannot help but think he will favour Wales a little more than any other Nation.

However for Myself i do not care wich country provides the Bulk of the squad. Just as long as the players that are chosen, ARE THE BEST PLAYERS IN THEIR POSITION.

I have said it before their is a lot of rugby still to play between now and when the Lions squad gets picked....So lets wait and see witch country will have the most inform players sell we.

I think that is what he was saying wasn't it?

Morgannwg wrote:

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:

mowgli wrote:Honestly what a lame article, there is nothing in it but facile opinion that anyone who knew a little about welsh rugby could express; the guy had had little to do with welsh rugby for 40 years and it shows, it lacks any analysis or reference to evidence to support his claims regarding england forming the nucleus/spine/testicles of the Lions squad let alone the team.

What a load of old bollicks.

I think in summary Barry John is saying that right now there are a group of England players that are ahead of others on form. However, the serious time for selection comes in the AIs & 6Ns. I think he is entitled to his opinion & for a great Welsh rugby player saying that about English players I take as a compliment.

But if you think he's saying that then surely you have in mind a number of players who are ahead of their Welsh, Irish and Scottish counterparts on form?

Marler,Hartley,Cole,Robshaw,Care,Flood, & Brown I would put in that category off the top of my head.

A lot of equivalent 'Celtic big name' players have either been inconsistent, injured or not playing because their Union won't let them.

I would give you Marler, Hartley and even care....but Cole over Jones?
Robshaw over Warbs?
Brown over Halfpenny?!

To think B John gets paid for writing such rubbish, If I was the editor of the WOS I would sack him before they lose more readers.

I actually think that there will be a reasonable number of Englishmen in the Lions squad and I expect England to do much better come the 6N. However, I have to say I have never read anything John has written and agreed with him. For one of the all time greats he seems to have nothing relevant to say about the modern game.

Most, or probably all of those names will travel Trev, but as pointed out not all will be starting, not on the current form anyway. I guess we'll have to wait a good few months.

mowgli wrote:I would give you Marler, Hartley and even care....but Cole over Jones?
Robshaw over Warbs?
Brown over Halfpenny?!

Warbs is second best openside in Wales on current form (according to many) Robshaw is consistently outstanding.

Adam Jones has played half a game this season again Cole has been outstanding in the scrum & loose.

Halfpenny hasn't played much in a poor Blues side this season so far. Brown consistently good since start of season.

The point is form not reputation & if you aren't playing or playing inconsistently then you aren't going to get the nod.

The point is form not reputation & if you aren't playing or playing inconsistently then you aren't going to get the nod.
BigTrevsbigmac


Posts: 1021
Join date: 2011-05-15


I totaly agree 100%

Fair play and i agree that wales have players with huge reps who aren't firing at the moment however form is temporary and class is permanent...Jones is arguably the best tighthead in the world and I think that Gats demonstrated his belief in this principle by taking Gethin to RWC 2011; he will pick halfpenny if fit because he knows the guy and knows he is uttterly dependable and, a la Neil Jenkins, a game changer for his kicking
As a Lions fan I put national rivalry aside and am not interested in international rivalry, if the side is dominated by players from any nation i am not that bothered as long as they win! I suppose after RWC 2011 and the slam this year we expected wales to kick on which they have quite clearly failed to do. I expect we will have a much better idea in about 2 months

I agree picking the best player regardless of nationality.

But I don't agree picking a player on reputation (class if you prefer) otherwise we would be picking the same players unless injured wouldn't we?

Young players develop into great players & some players are late developers. Get the best players in regardless of so called class or reputation.
The trick is combining that with units that work together & leaders with mental toughness.

Sadly debates on this site about this topic will always have some form of national bias...unless the positions are absolutely clear cut.

For example...if its no.6 I would have an in form Ferris any day of the week, because on his day, he's the best 6 by a country mile.

But if its down to Adam Jones v Dan Cole, i will most likely pick Cole as he's English and i think hes the best TH, whereas a Welsh Fan might be inclined to pick Jones.

Form is vital of course and there is always room for Lions bolters, and too true, class has not worked for the Lions as was the case in 2005 when SCW went with his RWC cadre.

But class/rep has to be a factor because it brings the seasoned experienced veteran into the mix.

Would anyone NOT pick Jamie Roberts right now?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sadly debates on this site about this topic will always have some form of national bias...unless the positions are absolutely clear cut.

For example...if its no.6 I would have an in form Ferris any day of the week, because on his day, he's the best 6 by a country mile.

But if its down to Adam Jones v Dan Cole, i will most likely pick Cole as he's English and i think hes the best TH, whereas a Welsh Fan might be inclined to pick Jones.

Surely by needing to use all those qualifiers its not clear cut.
Clear cut is "even though Richie is carrying an injury and is old and tired, NZ don't have anyone close so he might as well turn up"

mowgli wrote: I suppose after RWC 2011 and the slam this year we expected wales to kick on which they have quite clearly failed to do. I expect we will have a much better idea in about 2 months

Huh? I'm guessing you picked them to beat Australia. I think they have kicked on. I think they were better than at the world cup. They are now seen by many teams and punters as a genuine threat. The 3 losses in australia were up there with their best ever away results against the sh giants. It's consistent competitive performances against a top table team away from home. I'm not sure if Wales would have ever been able to do that before, even in the golden eras (Australia weren't a top table team until the 80's).

I'm interested to see if they can continue the improvement. This means being competitive in the autumn and 6 nations. They have to hold the standard and improve it if possible. Ultimately they will be a better team if they can be consistently competitive rather than winning the occasional game. I think they took a significant step in June.