RaboP12 (Round 6): Leinster (30) vs Munster (21) k/o - 18:30 Sat, 6 October 2012 (Lansdowne Road)

by thebandwagonsociety Tue Oct 02, 2012 2:08 am

First topic message reminder :

Leinster & Munster coming off away losses (Connacht & Ospreys respectively).
How much will Leinster rebound?
Is this the usual slow start, or a malaise within the squad?

Squad updates/Teams to follow

Leinster Squad Update: 1 Oct 14:30
Rob Kearney (back) and Gordon D’Arcy (rib) are major doubts for the province and they will continue to be assessed ahead of Friday’s lunchtime team announcement. South African second row Quinn Roux suffered a shoulder injury and he is expected to miss this weekend’s derby match.
Meanwhile, Shane Jennings is expected to shake off the ill effects of an ankle injury which he sustained on the hour mark in Connacht, though it is likely to curtail his on-field involvement in training this week. It is hoped that club captain Leo Cullen (arm) will also return to the panel either this week or next, while Isaac Boss (arm) is getting closer to a return to action.

The province are expected to be boosted by the return of the likes of Jamie Heaslip, Kevin McLaughlin, Brian O’Driscoll, Eoin Reddan, Jonathan Sexton and Richardt Strauss to the panel this week.

There are two significant imminent landmarks for the province with Cian Healy, who turns 25 on Sunday, in line to make his 100th provincial appearance, while Naas number eight Heaslip’s next appearance will be his 150th.

Munster Squad Update: 1 October
Good news from the Munster camp is that the injuries picked up in the game on Saturday at the Liberty Stadium are not causing great concern.

Conor Murray required stitches to a cut above his eye but shortly after he returned it was thought to be in his best interests to replace him with Peter Stringer.
Stringer finished the game but suffered a calf injury and his progress will be monitored though the expectation is that both will be fit for consideration. The same applies to Marcus Horan who sustained a facial cut playing for Shannon.

Paul O'Connell (back), Johne Murphy (knee) and Luke O'Dea (ankle) are all expected to take a full part in training this week while Ian Nagle (shoulder) did likewise last week but will be given a week or so before being made available for selection and Cathal Sheridan (hand) and Ivan Dineen (groin) are also looking at a return in the same timeframe.

Mickado wrote:LEINSTER:

15: Ian Madigan
14: Andrew Conway
13: Brian O'Driscoll
12: Fergus McFadden
11: Isa Nacewa
10: Jonathan Sexton
9: Eoin Reddan

1: Heinke van der Merwe
2: Richardt Strauss
3: Mike Ross
4: Damian Browne
5: Devin Toner
6: Kevin McLaughlin
7: Shane Jennings
8: Jamie Heaslip CAPTAIN

REPLACEMENTS:

16: Sean Cronin
17: Jack McGrath
18: Jamie Hagan
19: Tom Denton
20: Jordi Murphy
21: John Cooney
22: Noel Reid
23: Fionn Carr

red_stag wrote:01: Dave Kilcoyne
02: Mike Sherry
03: BJ Botha
04: Donncha O'Callaghan
05: Donnacha Ryan
06: Dave O'Callaghan
07: Sean Dougall
08: Peter O'Mahony
09: Conor Murray
10: Ronan O'Gara
11: Simon Zebo
12: Casey Laulala
13: Keith Earls
14: Doug Howlett
15: Denis Hurley

16: Damien Varley
17: Wian du Preez
18: Stephen Archer
19: Billy Holland
20: Paddy Butler
21: Duncan Williams
22: Ian Keatley
23: James Downey

Post match report (Indo)
Having saddled themselves with the unwanted tag of league leaders in tries conceded, Leinster for a while looked like they might make serious headway in the other direction at Lansdowne Road last night. In the end they managed one more than they conceded, 3-2, and were happy enough to win, never mind miss out on the bonus.

The bad news is that their list of injured has grown even longer. Four players had to leave early from what was an entertaining contest for the huge crowd of 46,280 who fetched up on a perfect night for rugby. Kevin McLaughlin, Isa Nacewa, Brian O'Driscoll and Andrew Conway all took knocks. Conway's exit was via a stretcher, with a stinger, while McLaughlin will need a scan on a hyper-extended elbow, Nacewa is in trouble with a haematoma, and O'Driscoll sprained his ankle.

It remains to be seen who is fit for the opening defence of their Heineken Cup title, against Exeter in the RDS on Saturday, but as far as last night was concerned they were stuck with a back three of replacement scrumhalf John Cooney, outhalf Ian Madigan (in fairness he was selected at fullback) and Fionn Carr, who surely would have started if he hadn't missed a bad tackle in the five-try defeat in Galway last weekend.

Smelling the weakness in their opponents, Munster -- who came through the game in much better shape physically -- chased the home team down like men possessed. On 53 minutes they looked like they would be beaten out the gate when an outstanding try from O'Driscoll, converted from the touchline by the excellent Jonny Sexton, put Leinster 30-14 ahead.

Going down the final straight, however, it was a mad scramble. Conor Murray spread a bit of panic in the home crowd when, from a couple of metres out, he took advantage of empty corridor to dot the ball down. Replacement Ian Keatley nailed the conversion with a great kick, and Munster were on the charge. A couple of minutes later they looked on the verge of making it a one-point game.

Keith Earls was held up inches short, and when the ball squirted up referee Leighton Hodges said it was forward and Leinster escaped. Earls made another great burst heading into overtime, but by then the chances of two scores were non-existent.

When the game wasn't stopped for injuries it moved along at a cracking pace, helped by the service of man of the match Eoin Reddan -- his contribution to O'Driscoll's try was first class -- and, in the subtext of showing form for Ireland, Richardt Strauss made a compelling case. He looked like the player who took Leinster by storm when he arrived here three years ago. He did well to finger-tip-score the opening try, after just four minutes, but way better again in keeping the ball alive for the second, for Madigan.

"Yeah I thought he was really good," Joe Schmidt said. "There was one pinball effort where he took a ball behind him and was hit by two guys -- [Casey] Laulala was one of them, who tends not to leave a lot behind when he hits -- and ricocheted away in the lead-up to scoring [Madigan's try]. I thought he was very good."

It remains to be seen if Declan Kidney thinks the same. The Ireland coach will have been pleased with the form of Earls, and Simon Zebo, but it was hard for Munster to get a secure platform given the damage Mike Ross was doing to their scrum. Dave Kilcoyne, his opposite number, is a willing and aggressive ball carrier, but as you would expect he spent more time learning than lecturing in the tight. The ref did him for two penalties in a row -- one hit and one miss for Sexton -- and you felt for him.

Early on Munster looked like they had plenty to offer, with Peter O'Mahony responding within a couple of minutes of Strauss's try. By half-time Leinster had slipped out to 20-14. Ronan O'Gara kept Munster in touch with three penalties but then hit the post with a handy one early in the new half.

Straight from there, Leinster got motoring and hit their opponents with 10 points in four minutes -- first Sexton goaled from the touchline, and then O'Driscoll finished brilliantly after Fergus McFadden laid the groundwork through the middle, riding O'Gara's tackle, before great hands from Reddan kept it all going.

Rob Penney will be delighted with the way his team stuck to the task, but they badly need to get all their big players fit if their game is going to work. Schmidt, while wondering why so much trauma has landed at his door, will be glad that his team can generate this sort of momentum with so many players missing.

Scorers -- Leinster: R Strauss, I Madigan, B O'Driscoll try each; J Sexton 3 pens, 3 cons; Munster: P O'Mahony, C Murray try each; R O'Gara 3 pens; I Keatley con.

Leinster: I Madigan; A Conway (J Cooney 65), B O'Driscoll (N Reid 64), F McFadden, I Nacewa (F Carr 55); J Sexton, E Reddan; H van der Merwe, R Strauss (S Cronin 57), M Ross (J Hagan 65), D Browne (T Denton 73), D Toner, K McLaughlin (J Murphy 12), J Heaslip (capt), S Jennings.

Munster: D Hurley; D Howlett (capt), K Earls, C Laulala, S Zebo (J Downey 65); R O'Gara (I Keatley 60),C Murray; D Kilcoyne (W du Preez 57), M Sherry (D Varley 51 yc 54-64), BJ Botha, Donncha O'Callaghan (B Holland 49), D Ryan, Dave O'Callaghan (P Butler 70), P O'Mahony, S Dougall.

Referee: L Hodges (Wales)

by Sin é Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:46 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I wouldn't consider Earls as one of our best young players.

I wouldn't consider Earls as the best young back 3 player or best young centre either.

I know you wouldn't Peter. But then, you thought that Denis Leamy had a lousy disciplinery record and wouldn't accept that he did not when it was shown to you how his record was so much better when compared to others in the backrow like Heislip & O'Brien (not as good as David Wallace though)..

So who deserves to be starting before Earls internationally and what have they done to prove they should?

by **rodders** Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:47 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I wouldn't consider Earls as one of our best young players.

I wouldn't consider Earls as the best young back 3 player or best young centre either.

+1

by SecretFly Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:52 am

Sin é wrote:

Your waffling now.

The reality is that Earls is one of our best young players at the moment who is as certain to start as Tommy Bowe or Rob Kearney is when fit, unlike McFadden, Trimble and all the rest of them who have shown some potential (like Zebo).

And of course you're doing your thing again...not listening.

Doesn't matter what the truth/reality is according to you as, once again, it wasn't the point of my comment. The reality - reality - as evidenced in this thread - is that people don't universally share your views.

Profitius said give Earls some credit. Who was the last person to give him some credit before Profitius spoke??? Who was it, Sin é? - Did you look back? - Yeah - me, that's who.

But even so, I don't shy away from the reality of the latest posts. I still pointed out to profitius that people are legitmately disagreeing about Earl's best position - the thread itself proves me right.

So rather than do your regular 'you're waffling' evasion just listen to and read what's being said. You won't get so needlesly offended that way.

by **Notch** Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:00 am

I would be starting Zebo ahead of Earls unless Earls starts getting some regular gametime on the wing. O'Driscoll will probably hold onto 13. Would be happy enough to see Earls on the wing to be fair but he's hardly indispensable.

by GunsGerms Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:15 am

Zebo isnt great. Shouldnt even be within a sniff of them first 15. I'd pick:

Earls
Trimble
Gilroy
Fitzgerald
Fionn Carr
Dave Kearney

ahead of him.

by **rodders** Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:20 am

Fionn Carr! Shocked

by LeinsterFan4life Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:21 am

Trimble!

by SecretFly Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:23 am

I'd slot Zebo into Fionn's slot on your list Guns. That's 2 Ulster, 2 Munster and 2 Leinster. Coincidently very neat - should keep the 'why one of yours and not one of ours?' controversy away................. Whistle

Oh no, looking above I see that it hasn't....

by GunsGerms Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:25 am

rodders wrote:Fionn Carr!

Granted Carr probably doesnt get enough games at Leinster to be considered or even to show consistent form. However, when he was at Connacht he was such a try scoring machine that he should be in the mix albeit he would probably need to move on from three time heineken cup winning champions Leinster.

by GunsGerms Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:27 am

Trimble for me is an outstanding player with a very keen eye for the line.

Trimble, Bowe and Earls are our best wingers in my opinion.

by **rodders** Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:32 am

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Trimble!

by GunsGerms Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:45 am

SecretFly wrote:I'd slot Zebo into Fionn's slot on your list Guns. That's 2 Ulster, 2 Munster and 2 Leinster. Coincidently very neat - should keep the 'why one of yours and not one of ours?' controversy away.................

Oh no, looking above I see that it hasn't....

I doubt even kidney would pick Zebo ahead of Zebo.

by Sin é Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:02 am

rodders wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:Trimble!

I wouldn't consider Earls as the best young back 3 player or best young centre either.

Rods, since you agree with Pete who must have gone home for his dinner, do you want to amuse the rest of us with who you think should be there ahead of Earls and what they have done to be so deserving. Since no doubt you will tell me that they came in off their wing, perhaps you might mention a couple of outcomes of when they did this.

by **rodders** Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:25 am

Bowe, Zebo and Gilroy right now are the form wings.

Trimble hasn't hit top form but has been excellent in defence and is proven at the top level. Conway has been going well too. O'Hallaran at Connacht has been in good form.

I wouldn't be looking outside those guys for the AIs.

Earls has been playing center, at his own behest, and hasn't been doing a great job.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:40 am

I have only seen Munster three times this season, and missed the last few weeks when I couldn't bear to watch any rugby after Nevin Spence passed away. Away, my two cents here- I have never understood why Earls should play at centre. Can anyone highlight for me what attributes he has that would make him a stand out 13? The only one I can see is he has an eye for a gap and is excellent at beating someone on the outside shoulder. He defence is probably somewhere around the average marker. He positional play is below average at provincial level but is definitely improving the more games he gets. His distribution is much improved but still very average at an international level. I just don't think he has a 'footballing brain' the same way that Fitzgerald or Bowe has. I just cannot for the life of me understand why we would want to take Earls, who could be a genuinely outstanding winger, and make him a less effective player at 13? His deficiencies, much the same way that someone like Trimble has major deficiencies, can be hidden on the wing but are exposed at centre.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:13 am

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I have only seen Munster three times this season, and missed the last few weeks when I couldn't bear to watch any rugby after Nevin Spence passed away. Away, my two cents here- I have never understood why Earls should play at centre. Can anyone highlight for me what attributes he has that would make him a stand out 13? The only one I can see is he has an eye for a gap and is excellent at beating someone on the outside shoulder. He defence is probably somewhere around the average marker. He positional play is below average at provincial level but is definitely improving the more games he gets. His distribution is much improved but still very average at an international level. I just don't think he has a 'footballing brain' the same way that Fitzgerald or Bowe has. I just cannot for the life of me understand why we would want to take Earls, who could be a genuinely outstanding winger, and make him a less effective player at 13? His deficiencies, much the same way that someone like Trimble has major deficiencies, can be hidden on the wing but are exposed at centre.

+1

In order of choice of wing(not taking in to account injuries)

Bowe: Better overall winger even if not as quick but as the clip I posted earlier showed he was quick enough to be within 5 feet of Earls when Kieth made an excellent break against England. Bowe comes in off his wing and picks good running lines. Bowe's defensive positioning is very good and he is good in the air offensively and defensively. Vey good try scoring record against some of the best teams in the world. Makes space for others around him.

Gilroy: Again is known for coming off his wings and picking good lines and seems like he can score tries for fun as evidence in his first half season in the Pro12. Very strong (shrugged off Howlett with ease up in Ravenhill) and has blistering pace. Quite solid under the high ball and his defence is very good too.

Fitzgerald: Not very fast over 60metres as wingers go but over 25 he is electric. Great change of direction and support lines off players being tackled or players who are on the floor (see try vs Italy). Probably the best defensive back in Ireland along with Sexton, BOD and Cave. He gets the yips far too often but when on form as he was last time he was injury free he is a serious threat. Was the form player last Christmas.

Earls: Very fast player and has a good boot when he uses it. Very agile and good broken field runner. Not good at entering the line or running support lines. Not a great footballing brain or defensive positioning but has an outstanding try scoring record and knows how to get to the try line, if not necessarily get others there.

Zebo: Before the Leinster game Saturday I would have had K2 here but Zebo despite getting bad ball looked very lively and effecitve. Huge number of offloads and not stupid unproductive ones either. He scores a lot of tries and is improving hugely under the high ball. Massive boot. Not as quick as people make him out to be but still has some serious wheels. I am not convinced by his awareness (which was a HUGE problem for him last year) yet but it does seem to be improving.

In order of choice of outside centre (not taking in to account injuries)

BOD: Does not need discussion.

Cave: While not the out and out quickest he does have some pace over 20metres although not so explosive, see how he stepped through Leinster defence in HCup final and ploughed into Munster's in ravenhill. He picks some good lines and has good hands but his most impressive quality is his defensive positioning and fantastic tackling. He rarely takes the wrong option.

Fitzgerald: If he could come back to form the way he has done I think he could make a good 12/13. May not have the out and out pace for wing but would be a quick 13 and couple that with his speed over 20m and agility he'd do well. God support runs, excellent defence, looks for the offload. Doesn't have a kicking game but IMO would be excellent there.

Earls: Very fast and when the space is out wide he can make a 2 on 2 in to a 2 on 1 by hitting the gas. Positionally not great but is improving and has started taking the ball in to contact more effectively too. He has improved his tacking as well but doesn't in my mind have the rugby brain to play 13 when defences are well organised and up in his face cutting off space quickly.

A few notes on Earls:

Strengths:
1) Pace
2) Agility
3) Instincts when running
4) Try scoring ability

Weaknesses (at international level):
1) Awareness of space for others
2) Short passing game
3) Defensive positioning
4) Low work rate in some games

Now based on that is he more suited to be a centre or back 3 player????????

Going back a few steps, how is it a bad thing for a winger to come off his wing? Obviously he isn't going to do it if his team doesn't have the ball unless numbers are short on the inside (you always defend from the inside out) but when his team do have the ball it beats using hands until the ball eventually gets to him via the 10, two centres and fullback by which time the entire defence has crabbed across. What makes some wingers so good is knowing when to entre the line. Look at Habanna's last 3 tries in the Rugby Championship, look at some of Bowe's great Lions moments in particular when he set up Ugo Monye's try.

Could Kieth Earls have set up that try? No. Then again there are tries that Bowe couldn't have scored cos he doesn't have Earls' pace.

What part of him makes him a good centre though??? Please explain that to me. He is a back 3 player most likely the wing due to his positioning. Downey/LLL have struck fear in to a lot of defences with little or no time together this season, it didn't take them long to gel. Has LLL/Earls worked?

by valjester Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:17 am

I'm knowing I'm coming late to the discussion again, disadvantages of living 8hours of Irish time, but rodders, you keep bringing up things that just aren't true of his game anymore. Pete, in both the clips from the England game he has the ball in one hand making the initial break but switches to two hands when he looks for support. I remember there was a big argument after the game back in feb/march.

On his lack of work rate when he is a wing, I think that is being highly unfair, and it is a hard thing to judge when you're not at the ground. In the games I have seen, he makes an awful lot of runs, but tends to be ignored, especially when playing for Munster but with Ireland, we tend to opt for the tight forwards rather than our wings, even Tommy gets ignored more times than he actually gets the ball on his runs.

Edit; And I'm sorry pete but that list is pure s**t, Gilroy hasn't done anything to deserve to be ahead of Earls, he still has a huge weakness in defence, and you've left Trimble out entirely which is ridiculous. Fitz has been injured for ages now, and wasn't even in the best of form before that.

by **rodders** Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:27 am

Val I don't know what Gilroy you've been watching because he certainly does not have weaknesses in defence, in fact defence is one of the strongest aspects of his game now.

Fitzgerald was in the best form of his career, by miles, before he was injured last.

by valjester Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:36 am

rodders wrote:Val I don't know what Gilroy you've been watching because he certainly does not have weaknesses in defence, in fact defence is one of the strongest aspects of his game now.

Fitzgerald was in the best form of his career, by miles, before he was injured last.

Gilroy has a tendency to forget to tackle the opposition at times. Think of the Zebo try in the quarter final last year amongst others. It seems to be just a problem with his decision making but there has been more than one occasion where he has left it to late to put in the tackle.

Disagree on Fitz, he was still much to inconsistent and nowhere near the highs of 2008/09.

by LeinsterFan4life Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:42 am

what is robbie henshaw's favourite position? he is the next big thing!

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:45 am

Val, didn't realise you were thar saile where you based now?

1) Surely he should have the ball in two hands the whole time as if he is ahead of his support by that much he shouldn't be running at fulls speed or at least be buying time for one of them to swap to the other side so it turns in to a 3 on 2. Also in the first break from the English knock back he had the ball in one hand the entire run and actually drifted to touch line killing Bowe's space.

I have seen Earls play a hand full of times for both Munster and Ireland and haven't seen much to be impressed by in terms of coming off his wing. There are times when he is playing centre that he actually goes on to the wing, he scored a try in the RWC when he was playing centre and Trimble wing and it was actually the other way around for that try and a fair portion of the match.

Yes I did forget Trimble apologies he'd be between Fitz and Gilroy IMO.

I can't remember the last time Gilroy missed a tackle and I watch a fair bit of him. His defensive positioning on kicks and opposition runs is also very accurate, look at the Strauss try at the weekend and you will see Earls shot out of the line leaving the hole. Gilroy is deceptively strong and very quick. I'd love to see him start with Bowe for Ireland.

Fitz was playing great stuff, he scored 2 tries was it against Bath and had one disallowed that was at Christmas. Since his rejection from the RWC squad I thought he played great stuff myself. He was really good.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:50 am

valjester wrote:
rodders wrote:Val I don't know what Gilroy you've been watching because he certainly does not have weaknesses in defence, in fact defence is one of the strongest aspects of his game now.

Fitzgerald was in the best form of his career, by miles, before he was injured last.

Gilroy has a tendency to forget to tackle the opposition at times. Think of the Zebo try in the quarter final last year amongst others. It seems to be just a problem with his decision making but there has been more than one occasion where he has left it to late to put in the tackle.

The tackle was missed by Trimble and it was mainly due to the fact that iHUmph came out of the line and left a hole.

by valjester Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:51 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Val, didn't realise you were thar saile where you based now?

1) Surely he should have the ball in two hands the whole time as if he is ahead of his support by that much he shouldn't be running at fulls speed or at least be buying time for one of them to swap to the other side so it turns in to a 3 on 2. Also in the first break from the English knock back he had the ball in one hand the entire run and actually drifted to touch line killing Bowe's space.

I have seen Earls play a hand full of times for both Munster and Ireland and haven't seen much to be impressed by in terms of coming off his wing. There are times when he is playing centre that he actually goes on to the wing, he scored a try in the RWC when he was playing centre and Trimble wing and it was actually the other way around for that try and a fair portion of the match.

Yes I did forget Trimble apologies he'd be between Fitz and Gilroy IMO.

I can't remember the last time Gilroy missed a tackle and I watch a fair bit of him. His defensive positioning on kicks and opposition runs is also very accurate, look at the Strauss try at the weekend and you will see Earls shot out of the line leaving the hole. Gilroy is deceptively strong and very quick. I'd love to see him start with Bowe for Ireland.

Fitz was playing great stuff, he scored 2 tries was it against Bath and had one disallowed that was at Christmas. Since his rejection from the RWC squad I thought he played great stuff myself. He was really good.

I am in the US now. I disagree with you, but we've had this argument before, and we've disgreed over Kearney as well, so there is no point carrying on this debate.

by valjester Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:54 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
valjester wrote:
rodders wrote:Val I don't know what Gilroy you've been watching because he certainly does not have weaknesses in defence, in fact defence is one of the strongest aspects of his game now.

Fitzgerald was in the best form of his career, by miles, before he was injured last.

Gilroy has a tendency to forget to tackle the opposition at times. Think of the Zebo try in the quarter final last year amongst others. It seems to be just a problem with his decision making but there has been more than one occasion where he has left it to late to put in the tackle.

The tackle was missed by Trimble and it was mainly due to the fact that iHUmph came out of the line and left a hole.

Having watched that try you are right, I can't remember which try it was that I'm thinking about now, but in the middle of that try, Earls throws a beautiful pass, but like I said I'll leave the debate now.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:13 am

Cool Val, hope the US of A is treating you well mo chara Hug

by valjester Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:22 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Cool Val, hope the US of A is treating you well mo chara

Its good but the timezone is a bit of a killer for watching rugby, which is a bit of a shock to the system to go from covering games in Toulouse to having to try and watch them in the afternoon on a shi**y internet stream.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:36 am

I assume you have all your proxy's and all that sorted? I can remember being in Saigon at 3am looking for a webcafe to get on to one of those crappy streams to see some HCup rugby. It's entirely necessary but such a pain

by valjester Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:42 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I assume you have all your proxy's and all that sorted? I can remember being in Saigon at 3am looking for a webcafe to get on to one of those crappy streams to see some HCup rugby. It's entirely necessary but such a pain

My laptop broke, and I haven't got around to sorting them out on my new one. The Hec won't be too hard to find, its the rabo that's hardest, and the major problem is work, and with the Hec time. Afternoon game means I've to be up at 4 or 5. And for Ulster's Friday night games, it lunch time in work and I can only take half an hour break.

Ah well I'll have to manage.

by Thomond Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:43 am

Without sifting through 4 pages of tripe (wasn't on here yesterday or much of Sunday)

Can I take it that we all agree that ROG is done and should never start a meaningful game for Munster barring injury? I can bet Rory get pished off with Sin é who kind of moved onto a new point when cornered? Am I right?

Don't be ashamed by being nearly a year behind my ROG out bandwagon, my uncle was wanting him out in 2010 and having seen some old footage of him, I think he was right.

Pete, my streams crappy? I ask for an apology or you will end up like thr tree in this (would be putting it on like but sure it's not hard to imitate a hoody from Dubland)

Spoiler:

Val I sorted you before yeah? Can do so again if needs be. Requests in early, good chance I won't be around much for HC weekend.

by valjester Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:45 am

Thomond wrote:Without sifting through 4 pages of tripe (wasn't on here yesterday or much of Sunday)

Can I take it that we all agree that ROG is done and should never start a meaningful game for Munster barring injury? I can bet Rory get pished off with Sin é who kind of moved onto a new point when cornered? Am I right?

Don't be ashamed by being nearly a year behind my ROG out bandwagon, my uncle was wanting him out in 2010 and having seen some old footage of him, I think he was right.

Pete, my streams crappy? I ask for an apology or you will end up like thr tree in this (would be putting it on like but sure it's not hard to imitate a hoody from Dubland)

Spoiler:

Val I sorted you before yeah? Can do so again if needs be. Requests in early, good chance I won't be around much for HC weekend.

I'll actually be home this weekend, so I'm grand, and I've saved a lot of places, its just every now and again it goes to sh*t. Talking to one of my friends in the Irish press, and he is saying that Penney is under pressure from others to start Rog, so it doesn't matter if everyone is in agreement or not.

by Thomond Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:52 am

I'm half hoping Penney started ROG to kind of show he can't play in the big ones anymore. Probably wrong on that. He will be under pressure to play him from the IRFU but he shouldn't bow down to it for the good of the team. ROG has been trying to play like Sexton for the last 2 years when he hasn't been able for it. He stands way too deep, and he would be better off kicking it but still tries to sling it wide and we go no where.

It's grand saying he passes it and all that but when you don't get anywhere it's feicing pointless.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed Oct 10, 2012 6:59 am

Thomond wrote:Without sifting through 4 pages of tripe (wasn't on here yesterday or much of Sunday)

Can I take it that we all agree that ROG is done and should never start a meaningful game for Munster barring injury? I can bet Rory get pished off with Sin é who kind of moved onto a new point when cornered? Am I right?

Don't be ashamed by being nearly a year behind my ROG out bandwagon, my uncle was wanting him out in 2010 and having seen some old footage of him, I think he was right.

Pete, my streams crappy? I ask for an apology or you will end up like thr tree in this (would be putting it on like but sure it's not hard to imitate a hoody from Dubland)

Spoiler:

Val I sorted you before yeah? Can do so again if needs be. Requests in early, good chance I won't be around much for HC weekend.

Ah Thomond I was blaming the Saigon internet if I am honest they worked the ticket in Marrakech. You're a good man!

PS: Your first point hits the nail on the head.

The Munster backline is still doing what it did last year which is in rugby terms "shovel sh!t". You can put a fair bet down that Munster are gonna go to the backs and play it across the field, sometimes making a lot of yards (not too often) and rarely breaking the line.

Munster must stop relying on "hands" and "the screen". They need to use switches, loops have runners on the inside of the ball carrier as well as on the outside.

Howlett and Zebo/Earls need to be used as men coming in to the line and not as men already in the line

by valjester Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:00 am

Thomond wrote:I'm half hoping Penney started ROG to kind of show he can't play in the big ones anymore. Probably wrong on that. He will be under pressure to play him from the IRFU but he shouldn't bow down to it for the good of the team. ROG has been trying to play like Sexton for the last 2 years when he hasn't been able for it. He stands way too deep, and he would be better off kicking it but still tries to sling it wide and we go no where.

It's grand saying he passes it and all that but when you don't get anywhere it's feicing pointless.

Rog's problem is that teams now know how to deal with him, and Munster don't have a monster pack to bail him out. The work Wallace used to do on the pitch really was monumental. But now that Rog has lost distance on his kicking, his passing is nowhere near as good means that teams find it very easy to shut him down. It was really noticeable that Leinster were copying what the Ospreys, and Wales, do when defending Rog, they spread out when he gets the ball and shoot up on the centres and wide runners, forcing Rog back into the centre where he gets smashed by the pack. The difference when Earls or LLL turned up at first receiver was that they had to stay close and couldn't fan out.

For Penney its a tough decision, because the media, for the most part, are all behind ROG still, and stuck in 2006. If Penney plays Keatley and Munster lose, the press will turn on him and give out about not starting Rog, and most Munster fans are still behind Rog.

by Thomond Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:06 am

We're most effective with Keats there Pete, he offers a runnign threat. Downey too, we have seen some creative play at times with the Downey Laulala axis and Keatley there. Earls has his uses possibly at full back. He does not deserve to start at 13. Probably not wing, Zebo is going great guns.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:10 am

It's a nasty spot to be in but he has to do what he believes is right I guess cheesy and all as that sounds. Who could be telling him not to who is high enough for him not to be ignored.

by valjester Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:12 am

Thomond wrote:We're most effective with Keats there Pete, he offers a runnign threat. Downey too, we have seen some creative play at times with the Downey Laulala axis and Keatley there. Earls has his uses possibly at full back. He does not deserve to start at 13. Probably not wing, Zebo is going great guns.

Earls at 15 makes most sense in terms of getting your best players on the pitch, the try against Ulster came from him running through a line that a 13 would take, which he could do consistently from 15. I think he is a better 13 than LLL but I would say I'm in the minority, and besides Earls at 15 is miles better than Hurley at 15 and you have to put out your strongest players.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:24 am

Thomond wrote:We're most effective with Keats there Pete, he offers a runnign threat. Downey too, we have seen some creative play at times with the Downey Laulala axis and Keatley there. Earls has his uses possibly at full back. He does not deserve to start at 13. Probably not wing, Zebo is going great guns.

+1

You guys looked so dangerous in the opening rounds.
If there are guys telling Penny to start ROG, it must be so hard on Keatly

by valjester Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:31 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Thomond wrote:We're most effective with Keats there Pete, he offers a runnign threat. Downey too, we have seen some creative play at times with the Downey Laulala axis and Keatley there. Earls has his uses possibly at full back. He does not deserve to start at 13. Probably not wing, Zebo is going great guns.

+1

You guys looked so dangerous in the opening rounds.
If there are guys telling Penny to start ROG, it must be so hard on Keatly

If its Kidney it is really ridiculous on so many levels, especially as it means that he believes Rog to still be 2nd choice for Ireland, despite realistically Jackson, Keatley, and Madigan could all be arguably ahead of him.

by valjester Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:31 am

Double post.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:31 am

Christ Val, I didn't think of that, that worries me deeply

The Keatly-Downey-LLL partnership was tearing teams to shreds, you guys should hold on to that and with Zebo-Earls-Howlett you have a scary back 3.

by valjester Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:33 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Christ Val, I didn't think of that, that worries me deeply

The Keatly-Downey-LLL partnership was tearing teams to shreds, you guys should hold on to that and with Zebo-Earls-Howlett you have a scary back 3.

It doesn't bother me so much, as I support Ulster, but it p**ses me off so much as an Irish rugby fan.

by Sin é Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:35 am

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I have only seen Munster three times this season, and missed the last few weeks when I couldn't bear to watch any rugby after Nevin Spence passed away. Away, my two cents here- I have never understood why Earls should play at centre. Can anyone highlight for me what attributes he has that would make him a stand out 13? The only one I can see is he has an eye for a gap and is excellent at beating someone on the outside shoulder. He defence is probably somewhere around the average marker. He positional play is below average at provincial level but is definitely improving the more games he gets. His distribution is much improved but still very average at an international level. I just don't think he has a 'footballing brain' the same way that Fitzgerald or Bowe has. I just cannot for the life of me understand why we would want to take Earls, who could be a genuinely outstanding winger, and make him a less effective player at 13? His deficiencies, much the same way that someone like Trimble has major deficiencies, can be hidden on the wing but are exposed at centre.

Earls first game of the season was against Ulster (the day before the Spence Tragedy). I suggest you watch his try here where he started the move with a great pass (and drawing two Ulster defenders - Cave was one of them), and successfully offloading, he then was involved in the move where he offloaded to Lauala, who passed to Denis Hurley who passed back to Earls for him to score.

His defending is top class, and in a chaseback already this season at the other side of the pitch (can't remember who it was now who got an intercept, he successfully made the tackle and stopped a definite try).

Starts at about 2.35

https://youtu.be/MksmLOI7jig?t=2m35s

by Sin é Wed Oct 10, 2012 7:44 am

valjester wrote:

I'll actually be home this weekend, so I'm grand, and I've saved a lot of places, its just every now and again it goes to sh*t. Talking to one of my friends in the Irish press, and he is saying that Penney is under pressure from others to start Rog, so it doesn't matter if everyone is in agreement or not.

Did your friend in the press ask why Penney was under pressure to start ROG (or did you even ask him/her)?

It just doesn't make sense as Ian Keatley is Ireland qualified.

On Off the Ball last night, Victor Costelloe (ex-Leinster player) went for ROG and Shane Byrne (ex-Leinster player) also went for him last Saturday. Costelloe said it was up to Keatley (and Sexton & anyone else) to make sure that they were selected.

(Alan Quinlan & Woody were also involved in the discussion).

by Sin é Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:11 am

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:I have only seen Munster three times this season, and missed the last few weeks when I couldn't bear to watch any rugby after Nevin Spence passed away. Away, my two cents here- I have never understood why Earls should play at centre. Can anyone highlight for me what attributes he has that would make him a stand out 13? The only one I can see is he has an eye for a gap and is excellent at beating someone on the outside shoulder. He defence is probably somewhere around the average marker. He positional play is below average at provincial level but is definitely improving the more games he gets. His distribution is much improved but still very average at an international level. I just don't think he has a 'footballing brain' the same way that Fitzgerald or Bowe has. I just cannot for the life of me understand why we would want to take Earls, who could be a genuinely outstanding winger, and make him a less effective player at 13? His deficiencies, much the same way that someone like Trimble has major deficiencies, can be hidden on the wing but are exposed at centre.

+1

In order of choice of wing(not taking in to account injuries)

Bowe: Better overall winger even if not as quick but as the clip I posted earlier showed he was quick enough to be within 5 feet of Earls when Kieth made an excellent break against England. Bowe comes in off his wing and picks good running lines. Bowe's defensive positioning is very good and he is good in the air offensively and defensively. Vey good try scoring record against some of the best teams in the world. Makes space for others around him.

A different kind of winger to Earls (big, & strong and good in the air - likes ROG putting the ball on a plate for him as he gets a headstart in a footrace. Defence not great and despite all the tries in the last 6Ns, was below par, which may have been down to his illness/injury. Main point is though, he is a different kind of winger (I'd put Horgan & Trimble in the same category).

Gilroy: Again is known for coming off his wings and picking good lines and seems like he can score tries for fun as evidence in his first half season in the Pro12. Very strong (shrugged off Howlett with ease up in Ravenhill) and has blistering pace. Quite solid under the high ball and his defence is very good too.

Had a great first season scoring tries. They seem to dry up last season. I don't think his defence is that good - Ulster leaked tries for fun last season. May have improved this year - it will be interesting to see who starts between himself & Trimble at the weekend. If its Trimble its because his deence isn't up to it.

Fitzgerald: Not very fast over 60metres as wingers go but over 25 he is electric. Great change of direction and support lines off players being tackled or players who are on the floor (see try vs Italy). Probably the best defensive back in Ireland along with Sexton, BOD and Cave. He gets the yips far too often but when on form as he was last time he was injury free he is a serious threat. Was the form player last Christmas.

Hasn't really played enough to know how he is. Hope he comes back well as I think he is a classy player who has been troubled with injuries. I don't think he is a winger - I think he could make a good 12.

Earls: Very fast player and has a good boot when he uses it. Very agile and good broken field runner. Not good at entering the line or running support lines. Not a great footballing brain or defensive positioning but has an outstanding try scoring record and knows how to get to the try line, if not necessarily get others there.

Zebo: Before the Leinster game Saturday I would have had K2 here but Zebo despite getting bad ball looked very lively and effecitve. Huge number of offloads and not stupid unproductive ones either. He scores a lot of tries and is improving hugely under the high ball. Massive boot. Not as quick as people make him out to be but still has some serious wheels. I am not convinced by his awareness (which was a HUGE problem for him last year) yet but it does seem to be improving.

In order of choice of outside centre (not taking in to account injuries)

BOD: Does not need discussion.

Cave: While not the out and out quickest he does have some pace over 20metres although not so explosive, see how he stepped through Leinster defence in HCup final and ploughed into Munster's in ravenhill. He picks some good lines and has good hands but his most impressive quality is his defensive positioning and fantastic tackling. He rarely takes the wrong option.

See how Earls destroyed Cave in Ravenhill (without ploughing into him) and was back in the line to pass to Lauala

Fitzgerald: If he could come back to form the way he has done I think he could make a good 12/13. May not have the out and out pace for wing but would be a quick 13 and couple that with his speed over 20m and agility he'd do well. God support runs, excellent defence, looks for the offload. Doesn't have a kicking game but IMO would be excellent there.

Earls: Very fast and when the space is out wide he can make a 2 on 2 in to a 2 on 1 by hitting the gas. Positionally not great but is improving and has started taking the ball in to contact more effectively too. He has improved his tacking as well but doesn't in my mind have the rugby brain to play 13 when defences are well organised and up in his face cutting off space quickly.

Watch his try against Ulster - he pulls Cave all over the shop and then a great offload, back in the line again to pass to Lauala and then there to finish the try. That was in his first 10 minutes of rugby this year against the League Leaders.

A few notes on Earls:

Strengths:
1) Pace
2) Agility
3) Instincts when running
4) Try scoring ability

Weaknesses (at international level):
1) Awareness of space for others
2) Short passing game - NOT TRUE
3) Defensive positioning - NOT TRUE
4) Low work rate in some games ????? really

Now based on that is he more suited to be a centre or back 3 player????????

Going back a few steps, how is it a bad thing for a winger to come off his wing? Obviously he isn't going to do it if his team doesn't have the ball unless numbers are short on the inside (you always defend from the inside out) but when his team do have the ball it beats using hands until the ball eventually gets to him via the 10, two centres and fullback by which time the entire defence has crabbed across. What makes some wingers so good is knowing when to entre the line. Look at Habanna's last 3 tries in the Rugby Championship, look at some of Bowe's great Lions moments in particular when he set up Ugo Monye's try.

Could Kieth Earls have set up that try? No. Then again there are tries that Bowe couldn't have scored cos he doesn't have Earls' pace.

What part of him makes him a good centre though??? Please explain that to me. He is a back 3 player most likely the wing due to his positioning. Downey/LLL have struck fear in to a lot of defences with little or no time together this season, it didn't take them long to gel. Has LLL/Earls worked?

Earls makes space for others because he draws defenders. If he was such a poor centre, Simon Zebo wouldn't have scored so many.

He makes lots of linebreaks (so defences have to watch him all the time). He was the 2nd best line breaker in the last 6Ns - and he missed the Welsh game.

It should also be noted that Ireland were the top try scorers in the last 6Ns with Earls at centre - even Trimble scored a try.

Recent Ulster game
https://youtu.be/MksmLOI7jig?t=2m35s

Other game
https://youtu.be/DTeK17yVaps?t=1m39s

by valjester Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:11 am

Sin é wrote:
valjester wrote:

I'll actually be home this weekend, so I'm grand, and I've saved a lot of places, its just every now and again it goes to sh*t. Talking to one of my friends in the Irish press, and he is saying that Penney is under pressure from others to start Rog, so it doesn't matter if everyone is in agreement or not.

Did your friend in the press ask why Penney was under pressure to start ROG (or did you even ask him/her)?

It just doesn't make sense as Ian Keatley is Ireland qualified.

On Off the Ball last night, Victor Costelloe (ex-Leinster player) went for ROG and Shane Byrne (ex-Leinster player) also went for him last Saturday. Costelloe said it was up to Keatley (and Sexton & anyone else) to make sure that they were selected.

(Alan Quinlan & Woody were also involved in the discussion).

They said it was coming from the IRFU, and you are never going to hear any of those players come out and go against Rog. They played with him, are friends with him, they won't stick the boot it. I'm not sure what more Keatley could do be selected except change his name to Ronan O'Gara.

Quinne was suggesting that Munster should revert to a forward orientated game which is ridiculous when you consider their strength is in the backs.

by Sin é Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:26 am

valjester wrote:
Sin é wrote:
valjester wrote:

I'll actually be home this weekend, so I'm grand, and I've saved a lot of places, its just every now and again it goes to sh*t. Talking to one of my friends in the Irish press, and he is saying that Penney is under pressure from others to start Rog, so it doesn't matter if everyone is in agreement or not.

Did your friend in the press ask why Penney was under pressure to start ROG (or did you even ask him/her)?

It just doesn't make sense as Ian Keatley is Ireland qualified.

On Off the Ball last night, Victor Costelloe (ex-Leinster player) went for ROG and Shane Byrne (ex-Leinster player) also went for him last Saturday. Costelloe said it was up to Keatley (and Sexton & anyone else) to make sure that they were selected.

(Alan Quinlan & Woody were also involved in the discussion).

They said it was coming from the IRFU, and you are never going to hear any of those players come out and go against Rog. They played with him, are friends with him, they won't stick the boot it. I'm not sure what more Keatley could do be selected except change his name to Ronan O'Gara.

Quinne was suggesting that Munster should revert to a forward orientated game which is ridiculous when you consider their strength is in the backs.

Look, the IRFU let Leinster start Contepomi in HCup games while Kidney selected Sexton (who was playing AIL for Marys) to play for the Wolfhounds. There is absolutely no reason why Penney should not select Keatley as Keatley is Ireland qualified.

Quinlan didn't say Munster should revert to a forwards game - he said they should mix it up a bit more and not be so predictable. He was also critical of Conor Murray for taking a step.

I think we will see more variety against Racing.

By the way - this is CJ Stander in action (borrowed from munsterfans).
http://www.munsterfans.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4138&d=1349793206

by valjester Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:31 am

Sin é wrote:

Look, the IRFU let Leinster start Contepomi in HCup games while Kidney selected Sexton (who was playing AIL for Marys) to play for the Wolfhounds. There is absolutely no reason why Penney should not select Keatley as Keatley is Ireland qualified.

Quinlan didn't say Munster should revert to a forwards game - he said they should mix it up a bit more and not be so predictable. He was also critical of Conor Murray for taking a step.

I think we will see more variety against Racing.

By the way - this is CJ Stander in action (borrowed from munsterfans).
http://www.munsterfans.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4138&d=1349793206

And that is a completely different situation to Keatley v Rog. Sexton was not clearly better than Contepomi in every facet of the game. At this minute in time there is nothing that Rog is better at. Quinnie was using Murray taking a step as an excuse for Rog, he was refusing to lay any of the blame at Rog's feet.

by **rodders** Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:35 am

Of course the IRFU are going to insist ROG plays, they are paying his (and Penney's) wages. Its the same with all the central contract players. It was the same last year with D'arcy v McFadden at Leinster.

guinness

for Thomond! notworthy

by valjester Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:42 am

rodders wrote:Of course the IRFU are going to insist ROG plays, they are paying his (and Penney's) wages. Its the same with all the central contract players. It was the same last year with D'arcy v McFadden at Leinster.

for Thomond!

Yeah, cheers for the links Thomond.

Yep, Rog will be at 10 this week, and I can't think of one part of his game that is ahead of Keatleys. Although McFadden isn't actually that good a player.

by Sin é Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:43 am

valjester wrote:
Sin é wrote:

Look, the IRFU let Leinster start Contepomi in HCup games while Kidney selected Sexton (who was playing AIL for Marys) to play for the Wolfhounds. There is absolutely no reason why Penney should not select Keatley as Keatley is Ireland qualified.

Quinlan didn't say Munster should revert to a forwards game - he said they should mix it up a bit more and not be so predictable. He was also critical of Conor Murray for taking a step.

I think we will see more variety against Racing.

By the way - this is CJ Stander in action (borrowed from munsterfans).
http://www.munsterfans.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=4138&d=1349793206

And that is a completely different situation to Keatley v Rog. Sexton was not clearly better than Contepomi in every facet of the game. At this minute in time there is nothing that Rog is better at. Quinnie was using Murray taking a step as an excuse for Rog, he was refusing to lay any of the blame at Rog's feet.

He was explaining that ROG could do with quicker ball (you may have noticed that Leinster fans blame Murray & O'Leary for all of Sexton's woes).

We had no idea how good Sexton was because he was playing AIL and not getting much of a chance with Leinster. Sexton started the last game in Lansdowne in 2006 (The Last Stand) against Ulster and we hardly saw him again until the Heineken Cup Semi.

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