Toulouse v Tigers

First topic message reminder :

What Leicester will need all available ooomph up front to confront the opposition.

And therein lies the problem with Croft, Parling, Salvi, Newby etc. all doing bit-parts in Casualty, you'd have to say the Tigers' chances are slim to say the least.

All that without the knowledge that Owens is the ref.

An LBP would be an outstanding performance.

Tigers are still in the competition, they did not concede a bonus point but did not gain one. All teams in this group are as expected, if the Ospreys beat Tigers it will almost certainly be over for them in this group.

glamorganalun wrote:Tigers are still in the competition, they did not concede a bonus point but did not gain one. All teams in this group are as expected, if the Ospreys beat Tigers it will almost certainly be over for them in this group.

Aye that is true. The first round has definitely gone as you would expect. Let's see what sunday brings.

I have a feeling that Treviso will have a say in who goes through, they are no longer the whipping boys, the Ospreys only just made the bonus point at home, the week before they hammered a strong Munster team (in good conditions). I suspect the Ospreys will not be looking forward to their final game in Italy trying to get a win and a bonus point.

Would there be any chance of tolouse getting complacent and sending a weak team to italy? Remember treviso beat a strong biarritz team at home last year. They can cause upsets.

It still surprises me a little why there are many who wouldnt consider Jordan Crane for the England 8 spot.

He's tough, quality...and a Leader. Is it just because he doesnt do all the razzmatazz stuff?

That was his worst performance since his return. He looks knackered. Hopefully Murphy and Deacon will be back next week so leadership won't be an issue and he can have a lighter week. He certainly needs a break. Considering his lay off there's no point thinking about him and England until the 6N at the very earliest.

Treviso could well be a banana skin but currently I fear we are the ones most likely to slip unless a good number of the missing/returning contingent make a difference. We are just struggling to gain possession far too much.

Gotta say that Tigers looked massively average tonight.

Youngs had a v poor game but then he's just back from injury.

What should be more of a worry is that from 10-15 they had exactly zero attacking spark. literally could not string together a single phase of attack and just kept shoveling crap offloads to the guys further out, or kicking rubbish ball to Toulouse.

Gotta say it looks like letting Twelvetrees go in favour of Allan staying was a massive mistake, Allan=average player who looks soooo limited Twelvetrees= brilliant talent that needs work.

Tigers pack were beaten on the deck and then by the 40 minute mark across the whole pitch.

Still it's away to Toulouse, only very special teams win there

TBH Toulouse did to us exactly what they did to Quins in the first match last season. Completely beat us up.

Youngs was indeed poor - though any scrum half would have really struggled in the tigers 9 shirt today. A number of times he was hindered by the delivery received from the pack - though at his best it would not have mattered. Of the 3 scrum halves in the EPS he is quite clearly down on form compared to Care and Dickson.

Yea to be fair my last comment was completely in jest.

Toulouse when they aren't being lazy buggers can demolish anyone!
No point getting upset about it. Just use it to hurt who ever you're playing next...

To be fair Youngs kicked really well, greasy conditions and the lack of an openside hindered his passing orientated game but he still looks short of form. I hope England leave him with Tigers during the AIs. He needs time to get back up to his best fitness and form.

I think it really is only a matter of time before we see Ford at 10 and Flood at 12. That would give us a lot more direction and creation. Not entirely sure Ford is ready for the likes of Tolouse away though, there was a lot of hits on Youngs and Flood and that level of pressure could be too much. Having said that he flourished at the end of last season and that combo should be trialled before Christmas.

Oh well at least the Welsh have something to cheer from this weekend.

At least the Tigers did not lose at home but losing the first game puts a lot of pressure on the team for the next game. Most of the games have gone with the home teams, no great shocks so far, next week may be different.

glamorganalun wrote:At least the Tigers did not lose at home but losing the first game puts a lot of pressure on the team for the next game. Most of the games have gone with the home teams, no great shocks so far, next week may be different.

Probably why I got 12/12 on SB As teams get closer in ability you have to feel that home team will win - unless there is a very good reason to go for the away side.

The real problem with this group is that with 3 strong sides and the weak one not being a guaranteed 5 pointer home and away its hard to see anyone getting through as a second best if they arent picking up unexpected points away from home. I really think Tigers will have to win both Os games to get into the knockouts, and really they need to improve on where they are at this far in to do that.

This is a general comment really, but I think that what this weekend has shown is that none of the Italian or Scottish sides, and to quite an extent the Welsh Regions, are of a standard that would justify automatic HC qualification.

Its no wonder the French and English clubs are threatening to break away.

Too early, way too early, to begin to make any judgements of that sweeping nature Jimpy.
Indeed we need to wait until at least the back end of the back-to-backs to begin too judge.

Today is the 25th anniversary of the Great storms of '87.
Preceded by Michael Fish's pronouncement that there's no need for worry https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqs1YXfdtGE

I disagree to a point. Apart from Edinburgh's suprise appearance (it was if Saturday's result was anything to go by anyway) in the 1/4's last season, the Scottish and Italian clubs have consistently been below par at HC level.

Tigers really need Salvi back fit, don't you guys have a pretty good acadmy 7 as well who could play? Waldrom and Crane on the pitch at the same time is fine for lower league Prem games but just soooo average against European teams.

Why bring off Cole but then bring on Ayerza?! I was expecting the Argentine to come on and partner Cole to really take it to Toulouse but Castro came on and he's been oddly quiet recently.

Bowden in at 12, Allan is far too average and alongside Manu just too one dimensional. Manu had a very quiet game too apart from 20 mins in the second half where he decided to show that 18 year old it's not all roses!

Lastly you guys should be optimistic, get back a few strike players in the back three like Geordan/Tait/Thompson and get Bowden, Micky Young and Salvi back and you'll be a completely different prospect. Will any of those players be back soon?

Jimpy wrote:This is a general comment really, but I think that what this weekend has shown is that none of the Italian or Scottish sides, and to quite an extent the Welsh Regions, are of a standard that would justify automatic HC qualification.

Its no wonder the French and English clubs are threatening to break away.

So an English team gets hammered again. But its the Scots teams that are not worthy of a place in the HC Now lets see - what scots team beat Toulouse last year? the same Toulouse that has now smashed one of ( if not the) best teams in England?

I rather think its also shown how poor the English teams are - not able to beat an also ran French team :-)

TJ wrote:

Jimpy wrote:This is a general comment really, but I think that what this weekend has shown is that none of the Italian or Scottish sides, and to quite an extent the Welsh Regions, are of a standard that would justify automatic HC qualification.

Its no wonder the French and English clubs are threatening to break away.

So an English team gets hammered again. But its the Scots teams that are not worthy of a place in the HC Now lets see - what scots team beat Toulouse last year? the same Toulouse that has now smashed one of ( if not the) best teams in England?

I rather think its also shown how poor the English teams are - not able to beat an also ran French team :-)

Oh TJ lets not over-exaggerate....

To be fair to Leicester they didn't get hammered. They lost fairly convincingly but that's not the same.

Toulouse away is a very tough encounter. Most sides would lose to Toulouse.

Edinburgh did well to beat Toulouse last season but that was last season.

Toulouse are French champions. They are not also rans. They would have been disappointed by last season's HC performances but they are a very good side.

TJ wrote:

Jimpy wrote:This is a general comment really, but I think that what this weekend has shown is that none of the Italian or Scottish sides, and to quite an extent the Welsh Regions, are of a standard that would justify automatic HC qualification.

Its no wonder the French and English clubs are threatening to break away.

So an English team gets hammered again. But its the Scots teams that are not worthy of a place in the HC Now lets see - what scots team beat Toulouse last year? the same Toulouse that has now smashed one of ( if not the) best teams in England?

I rather think its also shown how poor the English teams are - not able to beat an also ran French team :-)

Oh dry your eyes son, Leicester will be back. Its not my fault Scottish teams are generally of a standard that makes a mockery of the word 'qualification'.

yappysnap wrote:Tigers really need Salvi back fit, don't you guys have a pretty good acadmy 7 as well who could play? Waldrom and Crane on the pitch at the same time is fine for lower league Prem games but just soooo average against European teams.

Why bring off Cole but then bring on Ayerza?! I was expecting the Argentine to come on and partner Cole to really take it to Toulouse but Castro came on and he's been oddly quiet recently.

Mulipola did really well with Census but tired. I reckon Ayerza should have some on earlier than hed did. Castro has been struggling - I understand he has developed a wheat allergy, not good for someone who loves his pasta and bread.

Bowden in at 12, Allan is far too average and alongside Manu just too one dimensional. Manu had a very quiet game too apart from 20 mins in the second half where he decided to show that 18 year old it's not all roses!

It's funny when people were lauding allen last season I kept saying he was one-dimensional. Bowden looked so much better against Exter till he went off injured. Hopefully he will be in contention this weekend.

Lastly you guys should be optimistic, get back a few strike players in the back three like Geordan/Tait/Thompson and get Bowden, Micky Young and Salvi back and you'll be a completely different prospect. Will any of those players be back soon?

We need Salvi - sadly I thought he was out for a few weeks. Murphy will probably feature on sunday though. Tait needs more match time - which he will get through the AIs.

It's funny when people were lauding allen last season I kept saying he was one-dimensional. Bowden looked so much better against Exter till he went off injured. Hopefully he will be in contention this weekend.

That's odd because I remember all the Tigers fans saying that Allan was the best player in the backs and Twelvetrees was nothing compared to him etc etc... And when we did point out Twelvetrees abilities they were happily ignored in favour of one missed kick. Very strange.

You do need Salvi, but I'd say you need Bowden just as much. Or to try out the Ford/Flood combo perhaps.

Allen played well last year, in fact very well. He is however one dimensional. at the business end of last season he was in better form than 36. I guess that is why a lot of non-tigers wanted him in the England team.

As he still had time on his contract, it was not an either or choice at the end of the season. Tigers wanted 36 to stay. He agreed a new contract and was, we thought staying - sadly for us Glaws then came in with a much bigger offer (one we could not afford and stay within the cap) and the "guarantee" of a starting place.

Cockers gets mocked for it - but he selects people based on how they perform. To take someone's place you need to outperform them during training.

I don't know, but it all seems very frustrating to me. We just don't seem to have the quality, either up front or in the backs, to perform at the level we did when we were genuinely competing in Europe. Lots of very good, lots of solid, but nothing amazing. We haven't got any backs in the league of say Healey and the young Murphy, nor forwards in the league of well, erm, the entire pack of yesteryear. I think that if we are lucky we could get out of the group, but I don't really like relying on luck.

I know that Cockerill and others at Leicester have bemoaned the salary cap, and sure we don't seem to be able to sign players of the standard of Howard, Gibson, Kafer, etc these days to fill the gaps. But equally a lot of the players were homegrown then and these days the academy isn't churning out players of the standard of the ABC club, Johnson, Back, Healey, Murphy, etc - and for me that is a lot more concerning. I don't really know what to say except that it's very disappointing.

Big wrote:I don't know, but it all seems very frustrating to me. We just don't seem to have the quality, either up front or in the backs, to perform at the level we did when we were genuinely competing in Europe. Lots of very good, lots of solid, but nothing amazing. We haven't got any backs in the league of say Healey and the young Murphy, nor forwards in the league of well, erm, the entire pack of yesteryear. I think that if we are lucky we could get out of the group, but I don't really like relying on luck.

I know that Cockerill and others at Leicester have bemoaned the salary cap, and sure we don't seem to be able to sign players of the standard of Howard, Gibson, Kafer, etc these days to fill the gaps. But equally a lot of the players were homegrown then and these days the academy isn't churning out players of the standard of the ABC club, Johnson, Back, Healey, Murphy, etc - and for me that is a lot more concerning. I don't really know what to say except that it's very disappointing.

Bloody hell mate, if you think your recruitment policy and academy graduates are poor, what does that say for the rest of us!

Recent recruits, Salvi, Mafi, Kitchener, Mullipola, Goneva, Benjamin, Bowden all look top quality and would start for most Prem teams

Academy graduates Tuilagi, Youngs, Youngs, Cole, Croft all make the EPS, Harrison, Ford to come through.

Imagine how it is for the rest of us mate, come on, cheer up!

Bathite is spot on and yes, it was very disappointing but I don't expect them to be as inept again. There's enough talent there to be competitive and I am certain they will be. Youngs is still struggling to regain his past form, trying stuff that was v effective before but at the wrong timesm Trying too hard maybe?

Just been discussing squad quality. In some ways you could argue we have too big a squad - so the quality is spread thin. The most obvious areas of weakness are in the back 3 and at Open side.

The recruitment in to the academy has struggled a little in recent years - perhaps since Dusty Hare left - with Saints picking up some of the youngsters we would have liked. We need to have a much bigger recruitment net than a team like Harleguins who have so many kids on their doostep.

the other thing is that we have been at the top of the English game for a long time - this means that at times we have concentrated on recruiting ready made players to fill the gaps. The pressure on the coaches is so high that at times they are scared to put in players who are not good enough - but could develop over time.

going back over the decades though, Leicester have tended to be a club that likes more mature players, and has rarely had mega stars. Very few of our "home grown" players actually came through a Leicester junior system. In so many ways Leicester was rather a focal point for the areas clubs.

18 players featured in the 2001 final against Stade. Of these a maximum of 6 came through the Leicesershire youth system (Lloyd, goode, hamilton, Rowntree, Martin & will Johnson). Geordan arrived at us as a student, while the likes of Stimpson, Geldrbloom, Howard, Stanley, West, Garforth, Kay, Corry, Back and Gustard all played adult rugby elsewhere before joining Tigers.

Does seem to be a bit of averageness in the Tigers team now I must say, players like Morris, Hamilton, Genova are all pretty boring. But then look at the names that are out injured.

Why do Tigers have so many injured? It's not normal.

Other than Hawkins the injuries have happened during matches.

Croft fracured a vertebra trying to tackle Easter, Salvi fractured bones in his hand when it was stamped on, Bowden had his ribs damaged by an iffy tackle, Micky Young had an ankle trodden on, Murphy got hurt in a tackle. Benjamin got hurt playing for the A team, again in the tackle. Maybe we need to improve the tackling technique?

Goneva started the season with a real flourish and is a pretty exciting runner as many Fijians are but is very lightweight despite his size. Morris is quick but dull. Hamilton is steady. There is very little real flair which puts the onus on Youngs and Flood to create and take risks.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:The real problem with this group is that with 3 strong sides and the weak one not being a guaranteed 5 pointer home and away its hard to see anyone getting through as a second best if they arent picking up unexpected points away from home. I really think Tigers will have to win both Os games to get into the knockouts, and really they need to improve on where they are at this far in to do that.

The Ospreys v Tigers coming up is a big game, the tigers need to stop the Ospreys winning a BP as it is possible the three big teams win all their home games and the Treviso away game. I think the tigers at home will be open to losing and not getting a bonus point with their current injury list. Such a tough group who knows!

Morris is quick but dull. Hamilton is steady. There is very little real flair which puts the onus on Youngs and Flood to create and take risks.

Yet Lewington is scoring in the A league and has a better kicking game than Morris. He is prone to trying the audacious chip and chase but surely his step and creation should put him in front of one of the two wingers! Geordan should be fit for the weekend and Taut is playing again for the A team tonight (as is Louis Deacon).