Blues look to bolster scrum

CARDIFF Blues have moved to bolster their misfiring scrum by signing two Romanian props.

International Andrei Ursache, 28, and uncapped 21-year-old Petru Tamba have arrived at the Arms Park on a month's trial, money having been made available to director of rugby Phil Davies.

http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/Blues-look-bolster-scrum/story-17055174-detail/story.html

Also I've noticed Simon Gardiner who lasted around 3 weeks (ish?) at Rotherham Titans has signed for Cardiff RFC. It has been well documented on here about his poor attitude and professionalism. However he is a great scrummager, hopefully Phil Davies can get this guy back on track.

Where are the Blues fans who said losing Jenkins and Yapp wouldn't make too much difference.

Am surprised that Cardiff RFC have signed Gardiner - this must surely be last chance saloon for him. Hopefully he gets his head straight and just works hard, as he's got a lot of potential.

Am very surprised that the Blues have signed another 2 props (albeit on temp contracts), as they've selled out quite a lot on Borrust and Mafu, and Davies seems keen to play Andrews and Nevitt for some reason (even though they seem pants).

Borrust won't be costing too much an Mafu will be on peanuts having come from some random australian team so bringing in a few more front row options shouldn't do too much damage to our budget.

It's good to see Phil trying to sort out the problem he was given when he arrived, let's just hope one or both of these two guys are good enough. Seems like we've learned from past mistakes, though, by taking them on trial first.

gcBlues - Not being harsh but Phil had all summer to be working on fixing the problem. After all it is not an unknown thing for the Blues pack to be one of their weak areas. Phil Davies has really worried me at the Blues already, the way he sinks into his chair and seems to be facing away from the pitch (generally into his hands) whenever the camera swings around to him. It reminds me of his last season with the Scarlets when we went to poopie at a rate of knots.

Smirnoff - Gardener is still a kid, in terms of front rowers, and I did hear that leaving the Scarlets was a bit of a kick up the rump for him (not sure what happened with Rotherham), but if he has gone to Cardiff RFC, then I am in no doubt he will be feilded for the Blues at some point this season, and will most likely work his way to a Blues contract sooner rather than later. Especially given the Phil Davies, and Nigel Davies, managed Gavin Evans so differently (Under Phil he was one of the best centres in Wales, under Nige he was ditched for attitude issues).

So thats more non Welsh players in Wales.
People never will embrace the regions if they bring average players they don't know, if they don't use local lads and if they don't sign two huge names.

viewtothegym wrote:So thats more non Welsh players in Wales.
People never will embrace the regions if they bring average players they don't know, if they don't use local lads and if they don't sign two huge names.

.

Its a bit awkward with forwards, especially props, as they take time to develope and mature into decent players, so sometimes teams need to take stop-gap signings just to slot in until the youngsters are ready to start. I think most fans do understand that.

viewtothegym wrote:So thats more non Welsh players in Wales.
People never will embrace the regions if they bring average players they don't know, if they don't use local lads and if they don't sign two huge names.

You mean play average Welsh players in a small squad suseptible to injuries, rather than a larger squad, potentially better with a better platform allowing Warbs, Navidi, Tovey, Patchell, Roberts, Fish, Robinson, James, Cuthbert and Halfpenny to flourish.

I see what you mean - the 1st is def preferable - and signing 2 NWQ props on temp contract will def stop all the Welsh qualified talent listed above from playing - or stop the fans from being able to relate to the team...

:facepalm:

During the summer I did question who was making the decisions on recruitment? (Burnell,Barber, P Thomas or another rugby consultant?) Really didn't see what mafu, borrust, kyriacou or reed would add to the Blues pack other than adding numbers to the depleted squad. Maybe it was a decision based on money rather than quality? Especially didn't see the point of signing Ulsters 3rd choice hooker kyriacou when there were players like Gerwyn Price available. However these are the players that Phil Davies has inherited, and needs to work with. The fact that he is know addressing the problem is promising for Blues supporters. On the subject of Gardiner, it was only 2 seasons ago he out scrummed Castro of Leicester in a Heineken pool match - he does have the makings of a great TH. He is a risk worth taking in my opinion, and even he must now know that this is probably his last chance to securing a professional contract.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Its a bit awkward with forwards, especially props, as they take time to develope and mature into decent players.

Might have been true in the amateur days but I think this is very much a myth as professional rugby has pushed on.

red_stag wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Its a bit awkward with forwards, especially props, as they take time to develope and mature into decent players.

Might have been true in the amateur days but I think this is very much a myth as professional rugby has pushed on.

I comparision to wings and half backs how many international props (who are first choice) can you name under 23?

red_stag wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Its a bit awkward with forwards, especially props, as they take time to develope and mature into decent players.

Might have been true in the amateur days but I think this is very much a myth as professional rugby has pushed on.

You don't get many 1st choice, let alone international, props at 22 years old - where as all the backs of an international team could be around 22 years old.

Priest - I beat you to it, again

Times must be really really tight at the Blues

"money having been made available to director of rugby Phil Davies."

So he can afford to bring in two unknown props on a months trial!
Serously, if they made funds available it wasn't very much.

Ok so their arn't many options at this time of year as the best will be signed up, but loans may be an option?

And why were these funds not available in the summer when they could have been better used?

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

red_stag wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Its a bit awkward with forwards, especially props, as they take time to develope and mature into decent players.

Might have been true in the amateur days but I think this is very much a myth as professional rugby has pushed on.

You don't get many 1st choice, let alone international, props at 22 years old - where as all the backs of an international team could be around 22 years old.

I think that is more down to players not getting a chance due to that line of thinking. Certainly we have seen Owen Franks, Cian Healy, Alex Cobisiero, Dan Cole etc all come in at a very young age with no problems.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Priest - I beat you to it, again

I know, I'm slowing down at my age lol

(I imagine you must be younger than me as I'll be 29 in 2 weeks)

After the Glasgow game Davies was denying a problem in the scrum saying it was just a media thing? Maybe these two Romanian lone rangers are just media imagination too.

red_stag wrote:

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

red_stag wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Its a bit awkward with forwards, especially props, as they take time to develope and mature into decent players.

Might have been true in the amateur days but I think this is very much a myth as professional rugby has pushed on.

You don't get many 1st choice, let alone international, props at 22 years old - where as all the backs of an international team could be around 22 years old.

I think that is more down to players not getting a chance due to that line of thinking. Certainly we have seen Owen Franks, Cian Healy, Alex Cobisiero, Dan Cole etc all come in at a very young age with no problems.

Not sure how to argue with that, I mean you could argue that it's a myth that 5ft 6in locks can't compete in the professional international game - and it's more down to them not being given a chance, that they haven't competed yet.

Suppose agree to disagree.

I just feel that people have this idea that young props can't hack it and this means less young props are given a chance. And yet we see plenty of young props (22-24 years old) who firmly take hold of the starting position when given the chance.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Priest - I beat you to it, again

I know, I'm slowing down at my age lol

(I imagine you must be younger than me as I'll be 29 in 2 weeks)

Yeah i just turned 28, so that definately make you the old sod of us two.

red_stag wrote:Suppose agree to disagree.

I just feel that people have this idea that young props can't hack it and this means less young props are given a chance. And yet we see plenty of young props (22-24 years old) who firmly take hold of the starting position when given the chance.

I think that there are always a good few players who mture far faster than the majority. And there are also those who are that good that even when they are young and learning they shine through. However the average player hits the best of their form around when they are late 20s to early 30s, so with props (who are under a heap of pressure to be good) it tends to be that the ones around the 25-34 age are the better ones (but it is probably true with most positions too) due tothem being around their physical peak.

pioden gorllewin wrote:During the summer I did question who was making the decisions on recruitment? (Burnell,Barber, P Thomas or another rugby consultant?) Really didn't see what mafu, borrust, kyriacou or reed would add to the Blues pack other than adding numbers to the depleted squad. Maybe it was a decision based on money rather than quality? Especially didn't see the point of signing Ulsters 3rd choice hooker kyriacou when there were players like Gerwyn Price available. However these are the players that Phil Davies has inherited, and needs to work with. The fact that he is know addressing the problem is promising for Blues supporters. On the subject of Gardiner, it was only 2 seasons ago he out scrummed Castro of Leicester in a Heineken pool match - he does have the makings of a great TH. He is a risk worth taking in my opinion, and even he must now know that this is probably his last chance to securing a professional contract.

Who made the decisions on recruitment? The same two blokes who have done for years: Manning and Thomas

Kingshu wrote:Times must be really really tight at the Blues

"money having been made available to director of rugby Phil Davies."

So he can afford to bring in two unknown props on a months trial!
Serously, if they made funds available it wasn't very much.

Ok so their arn't many options at this time of year as the best will be signed up, but loans may be an option?

And why were these funds not available in the summer when they could have been better used?

Salary Cap. That's why times are tight.

Why not in the summer? The answer may be the claimed retirement of Mustoe.

really, Mustoes retired? I didn't realise he was that badly injured. Surely you'll need more strength in depth in midfield then.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:really, Mustoes retired? I didn't realise he was that badly injured. Surely you'll need more strength in depth in midfield then.

Midfield? Mustoe was a winger, although I've seen nothing offical to confirm his retirement.

The club is packed with centres: Roberts, Hewitt, Evans, Allen, Williams, Pascoe and even Davies and Patchell were played there in pre-season. Come the AI period then the back three options are seriously bare, moreso if Harry Robinson isn't released.

Hi played centre as well at times though, i thought.

And while you've got lots of centres - I think Roberts is the only real quality, and Allen and Williams look very promising and Patchell/Davies are flyhalves

I think it is absolutely disgusting that the Blues are not looking for talent in their own region, but they have gone one better and they are not even looking for talent in their own country. What is wrong with any of these:-


Jack Dando - Hooker
Dafydd Davies - Lock
Chris Dicomidis - Hooker
Darren Harris - Hooker
Cory Hill - Lock
Keiron Jenkins - Hooker
Craig Locke - Lock
Pat Palmer - Prop
Chris Phillips - Prop
Scott Roberts - Prop

All these forwards play in the Blues region, they have all played age grade internationals and some have even been through the Blues academy, yet two player from an amateur league are deemed to have more potential, what is wrong with the Blues? Any more NWQ and the WRU should cut their funding.

PhilBB: Interesting that it's these two who make the decisions on recruitment. How qualified is Manning to make these decisions on recruiting? Guess his/their track record in the transfer market has been pretty patchy over the years. Some good signing in Rush, Tito, Blair etc……to some shockers in the form of Norton-Knight. Don't understand their thought process for this summers recruiting though, most seem ill thought out.

LordDowlais wrote:I think it is absolutely disgusting that the Blues are not looking for talent in their own region, but they have gone one better and they are not even looking for talent in their own country. What is wrong with any of these:-


Jack Dando - Hooker
Dafydd Davies - Lock
Chris Dicomidis - Hooker
Darren Harris - Hooker
Cory Hill - Lock
Keiron Jenkins - Hooker
Craig Locke - Lock
Pat Palmer - Prop
Chris Phillips - Prop
Scott Roberts - Prop

All these forwards play in the Blues region, they have all played age grade internationals and some have even been through the Blues academy, yet two player from an amateur league are deemed to have more potential, what is wrong with the Blues? Any more NWQ and the WRU should cut their funding.

Just for information here is a link to LDs previous posts on this subject, and the array of responses https://www.606v2.com/t35763p150-regions-at-lowest-point.

But LD again, I'm not sure why you include Cory Hill in the list when he's already in the Blues squad - or so many locks when the Blues need props. Also not sure how listing players demonstrates their qualities.

LordDowlais wrote:I think it is absolutely disgusting that the Blues are not looking for talent in their own region...

All these forwards play in the Blues region, they have all played age grade internationals and some have even been through the Blues academy

So the Blues are looking for talent in their own region.

LordDowlais wrote:I think it is absolutely disgusting that the Blues are not looking for talent in their own region, but they have gone one better and they are not even looking for talent in their own country. What is wrong with any of these:-


Jack Dando - Hooker
Dafydd Davies - Lock
Chris Dicomidis - Hooker
Darren Harris - Hooker
Cory Hill - Lock
Keiron Jenkins - Hooker
Craig Locke - Lock
Pat Palmer - Prop
Chris Phillips - Prop
Scott Roberts - Prop

All these forwards play in the Blues region, they have all played age grade internationals and some have even been through the Blues academy, yet two player from an amateur league are deemed to have more potential, what is wrong with the Blues? Any more NWQ and the WRU should cut their funding.

Dicomidis isn't a hooker.

The players mentioned have already failed as professionals.

There is no mechanism for funding to be cut, not that there is any funding in the first place.

pioden gorllewin wrote:PhilBB: Interesting that it's these two who make the decisions on recruitment. How qualified is Manning to make these decisions on recruiting? Guess his/their track record in the transfer market has been pretty patchy over the years. Some good signing in Rush, Tito, Blair etc……to some shockers in the form of Norton-Knight. Don't understand their thought process for this summers recruiting though, most seem ill thought out.

Manning rated SNK, so that gives you my opinion of his qualities.

Rush, Tito and Blair were suggested / brokered by Graham Henry.

This summer's recruitment is simple: who is available and cheap.

Ok so you all think it is ok for us to develop players for other countries ?

LordDowlais wrote:Ok so you all think it is ok for us to develop players for other countries ?

At this point, should we thank Scotland for developing Yapp and Rees, England for developing Robinson, Gill, Powell, Peel, Thomas (and so many others) and France for developing Charteris, Brew, Phillips and co?

For me, what is not acceptable is for our four to play poor players regardless of their nationality. Their self imposed spending limit is seeing them do exactly that, but the list of players you provided are simply not good enough for professional rugby.

LordDowlais wrote:Ok so you all think it is ok for us to develop players for other countries ?

I've never suggested that - I've pointed out on many occassions the number of homegrown/home region players in the Blues squad, and how they are increasing that number.

However I am against throwing in semi poor players who aren't up to professional level - if they are up to Rabo level and have proved it in the training camps the regions hold, they are then taken up on the development route and given their shot in the region - such as Cory Hill has.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Ok so you all think it is ok for us to develop players for other countries ?

At this point, should we thank Scotland for developing Yapp and Rees, England for developing Robinson, Gill, Powell, Peel, Thomas (and so many others) and France for developing Charteris, Brew, Phillips and co?

For me, what is not acceptable is for our four to play poor players regardless of their nationality. Their self imposed spending limit is seeing them do exactly that, but the list of players you provided are simply not good enough for professional rugby.

I am not worried about what the other unions are doing, only ours.

LordDowlais wrote:What is wrong with any of these:-

Chris Dicomidis - Hooker

Well he is a back row forward

Smirnoffpriest wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Ok so you all think it is ok for us to develop players for other countries ?

I've never suggested that - I've pointed out on many occassions the number of homegrown/home region players in the Blues squad, and how they are increasing that number.

However I am against throwing in semi poor players who aren't up to professional level - if they are up to Rabo level and have proved it in the training camps the regions hold, they are then taken up on the development route and given their shot in the region - such as Cory Hill has.

So you think, that these two Romanians, who play in an amateur league are better prepared than players who are playimg semi pro ?

LordDowlais wrote:So you think, that these two Romanians, who play in an amatuer league are better prepared than players who are playimg semi pro ?

I'd say that is what the month's trial will answer.

who knows, that's why they're on trial

So what we are saying is then, the Blues have exhausted every option in Wales and the only other option is to look at Romania ? I find this either very spurious or very worrying. If there are no options in Wales then something is wrong somewhere, but it is probably more likely that the Blues think that the eastern block is a breading ground for big hard men so we will have a look there, it's not as if these guys are ready made to come straight in, these guys will need to be nurtured and fine tuned before they can make it at a pro level, so why can't they do that with some Welsh beef
?

LordDowlais wrote:

So what we are saying is then, the Blues have exhausted every option in Wales and the only other option is to look at Romania ? I find this either very spurious or very worrying. If there are no options in Wales then something is wrong somewhere, but it is probably more likely that the Blues think that the eastern block is a breading ground for big hard men so we will have a look there, it's not as if these guys are ready made to come straight in, these guys will need to be nurtured and fine tuned before they can make it at a pro level, so why can't they do that with some Welsh beef
?

Name me better Welsh qualified options who are available and within the budget. There aren't any.

All these guys have to be is better than Trevett and Harford, after all.

LordDowlais wrote: So you think, that these two Romanians, who play in an amateur league are better prepared than players who are playimg semi pro ?

I don't think that as I don't know much about the Welsh prem players in the Blues region, and now much less about some Romanian props - but considering the Blues coaches have coached and watched the Welsh prem players quite a lot and have evaluated them during training sessions, and have scouted the Romanians and will be evaluating them during a trail - I accept their opinion that these Romanians could be the best option, they may not be anywhere near the standard, but they are on trial so nothing lost.

It's not a big risk and not really a big issue either way. It's certainly not ridiculous to assume that there isn't any Welsh prem players as good as Trevitt, otherwise they would have been picked up in the summer.

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

So what we are saying is then, the Blues have exhausted every option in Wales and the only other option is to look at Romania ? I find this either very spurious or very worrying. If there are no options in Wales then something is wrong somewhere, but it is probably more likely that the Blues think that the eastern block is a breading ground for big hard men so we will have a look there, it's not as if these guys are ready made to come straight in, these guys will need to be nurtured and fine tuned before they can make it at a pro level, so why can't they do that with some Welsh beef
?

Name me better Welsh qualified options who are available and within the budget. There aren't any.

All these guys have to be is better than Trevett and Harford, after all.

The Dragons don't seem to be giving Gerwyn Price the chance, why not him ? I have hered the Blues have signed Gardiner from Rotherham Titans, why not him ?

LordDowlais wrote:
The Dragons don't seem to be giving Gerwyn Price the chance, why not him ? I have hered the Blues have signed Gardiner from Rotherham Titans, why not him ?

Price is a hooker.

Gardiner is struggling in the Rags.

They've only just signed gardiner and that's to Cardiff RFC, you expect him to just walk in the side? They're taking a look at him and if PD thinks he can have a go, he'll let him.

And Gerwyn Price is a Hooker, are you seriously just throwing out names of prem players you've heard of? The blues needs Props.

Phil

PhilBB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:
The Dragons don't seem to be giving Gerwyn Price the chance, why not him ? I have hered the Blues have signed Gardiner from Rotherham Titans, why not him ?

Price is a hooker.

Gardiner is struggling in the Rags.

Well give Gardiner a trial, just like the Romanians, like I have been told, what is there to lose, it is only a trial, also the Blues are screaming out for decent front rows, give Gerwyn Price a trial, again what could they lose.

LordDowlais wrote:The Dragons don't seem to be giving Gerwyn Price the chance, why not him ?

Dowlais, you were told yesterday on another thread that Gerwyn Price has been given the chance by the Dragons. I'll give you the quotation if it means you'll stop banging on about it:

'I really wanted him to be given a shot after last season, but you can't say he hasn't been. He was invited to train with the Dragons. Plus Crosskeys aren't exactly helping his chances by playing him at 7.'

Some teams are blessed with players coming through at prop who turn out to be class operators, some don't. Adam Jones didn't turn in to a quality tightead until 2007/8 which is a hell of a long time after he turned professional. With today's market and financial incentives, you can't wait that long for a player in a key position, like prop, to come in to his own. At that position, it's sink or swim