Regions at lowest point

First topic message reminder :

Surely I can't be the only fan of regional rugby to be feeling really down on the state we're all in. Before I know this wont go down well with Scarlets and O's fans, as they really are making the best of what they've got. My biggest worry is the standard of rugby on display. I attended the Dragons v Blues game and not only were they the weakest sides I've seen from these regions, the standard of play was appalling. Even Blues fans stood near me were commenting at how dire their side is, so what does that say about the Dragons?? I dont want to rubbish my region as I'm passionate about them, but the display on Friday was a complete embarrassment. Look at the Blues, getting thumped at home on consecutive weekends.
For me, I think that in Wales, we have several world class players, some very good players and below that, there is a big drop-off in standards. We have very little depth and it makes me wonder when people want a 5th region!! How poor would they be?
I watched the game on Friday and thought to myself that I hope Toby Faletau leaves the Dragons. If he stays at the Dragons he could well lose his welsh place. He's such a talent that he deserves so much better and I've no doubt that he and Lydiate will have no option other than to go go.
I take my hat off to the Scarlets. A few seasons ago they were the 4th placed region. They've turned that on it's head and how? Not by splashing cash, but by bringing through what seems like an endless amount of talent.
You know that by the end of the season, in the Rabies league, the 3 Irish provinces will be in the play-offs with 1 other from Wales or Scotland. The regions simply cannot compete in Europe. Not one will get into the quarters and yet Wales are grand slam winners!! Not that many players have gone abroad.
With the standard being so poor, attendances will surely decrease even further, yet Wales will sell-out for the autumn tests. I'd love to see the regions given more money to attract bigger names. That's the difference with the regions and the rest of Europe. I would like to see a limit on overseas players though to stop gross being brought in. But what would people rather, a successful national team or successful regions? Why can't we have both?
The national coaches must love seeing the youngsters blooded in the Rabies, but it doesn't bring success and only attracts die-hard followers. I watched the Gloucester v Bath Aviva game yesterday and was jealous. Jealous that there was a big derby, a packed house, two quality sides, high intensity and kicked off on a Saturday afternoon. What incentive was there for me to attend the Scarlets game on Friday? I couldn't possibly make a 7.05 KO on a Friday, but if I could, I'd have to be mad to go and watch that performance.
On a side-note. Just how bad is Sean Holley on Scrum V? Terrible!

Morgannwg wrote:Another question. Why do you support the Ospreys? Are they doing much for Merthyr? I wouldn't have thought so. The people up there should stop living in denial and just admit they are supporting the 'glamour region'. Makes the 'disenfranchised' arguement dissolve a bit though.

Morg, I do not support any region per say, I support Welsh rugby, I go to as many regional games I can afford or have the time to, the Blues are the easiest for me to watch and my old man always loved Cardiff RFC so as a result I watch them more than any other, but I will cherry pick what games I want to watch throughout the season, my only concern is watching Welsh players do well in a pro league representing their regions and supporters over four different countries.

I tend to agree with Bluesman. His example with Steffan Jones is correct. He went off to play for Cross Keys to give him a higher level to play at and gain experience.
I'm not sure I'm buying the increase in attendances at theBlues. Clearly they're up, but the 3,000 crowd against Edinburgh last year was the game that a lot of fans boycotted! Seriously, I'm glad they're up. I went to the CCS 3 times as a dragons fan and i'd have hated to have had to support my team in that arena. On the pitch though, I can't remember seeing a Cardiff or Blues team as poor as this. Even when they finished as the bottom region when the regions were introduced and had to be reinstated into the HC, they still had the Robinson brothers, Shanks, Rush etc. The Dragons v Blues derby the other week was an absolute shocker in terms of skill levels. I wish all 4 regions had enough cash to attract just a couple of top foreign stars and not the dross that ALL regions have signed in the past and some have signed this season. They don't really do a lot for our game. At the Dragons we have Nimmo and Tuilagi. Neither will be remembered for long after they move on.

bluesman:

I agree that is what I concluded:

An example is the Dragons V a limited combined Gwent side preseason with the Dragons playing at home. Again the Dragons could take the result as a positive in that they have strength in depth but results suggest they are both weak.[i]

All The Time Ref wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:The only reason there was a big fanfare surrounding the Blues training in the Rhondda was because it was the first time they'd done it.

The've done training sessions around the region before. Don't let the truth get in the way of your prejudice though.

I stand corrected!

What about Burns the Dragons hooker? wasn't he playing Prem rugby and not involved in the region at all, and then because of an injury crisis, or something, was brought in, flourished and within a season or less was playing for Wales.

So what are we saying now, that the Prem clubs can develop some players?

I don't see a huge gap between Welsh Prem and Rabo standards, particularly in terms of skills and pace. The full time pros are fitter and bulkier, but I see plenty of semi pro players who could make the transition if given a chance.

The gulf in standard is between Rabo and top HC/test level.

The Prem clubs are scoring tries I know that. You don't honestly think Pontypridd could go out and beat the Ospreys though do you?

Perhaps this puts to bed that the premiership players will struggle to make the step-up. I think a number of them could transition into their Regional squads.

A number of them do make the transition already Morg.

I agree with ur post though.

Casartelli wrote:I don't see a huge gap between Welsh Prem and Rabo standards, particularly in terms of skills and pace. The full time pros are fitter and bulkier, but I see plenty of semi pro players who could make the transition if given a chance.

The gulf in standard is between Rabo and top HC/test level.

I watch both the Prem and Pro12. I see players like Copeland being superstarts at WP level and tremendously average at Pro12 level.

It's clear, to me, that the gulf between the WP and Pro12 is bloody enormous.

Morgannwg wrote:The Prem clubs are scoring tries I know that. You don't honestly think Pontypridd could go out and beat the Ospreys though do you?

Perhaps this puts to bed that the premiership players will struggle to make the step-up. I think a number of them could transition into their Regional squads.

Like who?

Pontypridd could probably beat the Dragons and at a push Blues missing a few of their internationals

gowales wrote:Pontypridd could probably beat the Dragons and at a push Blues missing a few of their internationals

Look here w-ww.cardiffblues.com/rugby/match_centre.php?section=overview&fixid=157979

That's cloud cuckoo land stuff, gowales. Pontypridd couldn't handle the extra bulk, speed and professionalism of full time players.

Hi PhilBB, welcome to the forum mate

I think it's fair to say that a lot of players in the Prem wouldn't be able to make the step up to the regions, but then tehre's also a fair few like Adam Warren and Kieran Murphy that have done it with relative ease so there can't be that vast a difference now, wouldn't you say?

PhilBB wrote:

gowales wrote:Pontypridd could probably beat the Dragons and at a push Blues missing a few of their internationals

Look here w-ww.cardiffblues.com/rugby/match_centre.php?section=overview&fixid=157979

That's cloud cuckoo land stuff, gowales. Pontypridd couldn't handle the extra bulk, speed and professionalism of full time players.

How about the Dragons though? Some of their players shouldn't be professional

rugbydreamer wrote:Hi PhilBB, welcome to the forum mate

I think it's fair to say that a lot of players in the Prem wouldn't be able to make the step up to the regions, but then tehre's also a fair few like Adam Warren and Kieran Murphy that have done it with relative ease so there can't be that vast a difference now, wouldn't you say?

I'd say there's a huge difference and I say that from the experience of watching both. Younger players like Warren might break through but most at that age range will be Academy graduates. Warren being an example of this from his time with the u18s at Llanelli.

gowales wrote:How about the Dragons though? Some of their players shouldn't be professional

In an equal match, the NGD would easily win. That's just the benefit of full time players versus part timers. You're right, though, many in that NGD squad should only be playing WP rugby.

I'd say the Dragons have got lots of very good professional players - while the Prem teams have got a handful of players who could become professionals and make the step up. It's a big difference.

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Hi PhilBB, welcome to the forum mate

I think it's fair to say that a lot of players in the Prem wouldn't be able to make the step up to the regions, but then tehre's also a fair few like Adam Warren and Kieran Murphy that have done it with relative ease so there can't be that vast a difference now, wouldn't you say?

I'd say there's a huge difference and I say that from the experience of watching both. Younger players like Warren might break through but most at that age range will be Academy graduates. Warren being an example of this from his time with the u18s at Llanelli.

But surely fitness wise, and strength and conditioning etc, the Prem teams must be doing something right for these players to go up a level, sometimes two, within the space of one season?

I would say over the last few years, the standard of the Prem has definitely increased. I watch both myself and skills wise (certainly in the backs) the levels are quite equal. It's more as I say strength and conditioning is the difference, yet I can't see there being an 'enormous' gap as you've said, if there are players able to make the step up and to make it well.

Just to clarify, my point was more that the Blues and Dragons are so poor nowadays rather than the Premiership being strong. I agree that the Premiership isn't strong enough at the moment.

rugbydreamer wrote:But surely fitness wise, and strength and conditioning etc, the Prem teams must be doing something right for these players to go up a level, sometimes two, within the space of one season?

I would say over the last few years, the standard of the Prem has definitely increased. I watch both myself and skills wise (certainly in the backs) the levels are quite equal. It's more as I say strength and conditioning is the difference, yet I can't see there being an 'enormous' gap as you've said, if there are players able to make the step up and to make it well.

The defensive play in the WP is next to awful, so I'm not sure how you can equate the levels "skills wise". A player like Gareth Davies makes a mockery of WP defensese yet struggles at even low Pro12 level to make an impact. That in itself is a measure in the gap in standards.

I can't think of one player who has gone up a level within the space of one season. Who are you thinking of?

Adam Warren and George North are two that have gone up to regional level and also been capped at international level in the space of one season. (although, I concede, Georgie is truly just exceptional)

Suppose I could chuck Rhodri Jones in there too.

I know a lot of their development has come through at age grade level, but the fact remains they were playing week in, week out in the Prem, and if the gulf in class between the Prem and regions were so vast, there's just no possible way they'd have been able to make the steps up that they have done so quickly.

rugbydreamer wrote:Adam Warren and George North are two that have gone up to regional level and also been capped at international level in the space of one season. (although, I concede, Georgie is truly just exceptional)

Suppose I could chuck Rhodri Jones in there too.

I know a lot of their development has come through at age grade level, but the fact remains they were playing week in, week out in the Prem, and if the gulf in class between the Prem and regions were so vast, there's just no possible way they'd have been able to make the steps up that they have done so quickly.

Those guys are Academy graduates, not WP players. They were full time players, training with professionals, during their playing time in the WP.

WP players are brickies, sparkies, bus drivers and butchers, training two nights a week and playing on a Saturday. Not the full time players you mention.

Yes but where were they playing week in, week out? Where were tehy training week in week out? It was with the Prem clubs, not the regions.

How do you think some of the older players get academy conracts anyway? Often it's by playing well for their Prem side.

Don't think anyone is denying there's a step up, but I certainly don't think it's as massive as it used to be, and most definitely not an enormous one

With more regional input into the feeder clubs, in terms of coaching feedback and fitness etc, that is happening now, the Prem is only going to keep improving quality wise.

Well there's Lloyd Burns - wasn't he a brickie or an electrition?

I'm confused as to who is a Welsh Prem player and who is an 'Academy Graduate' now!

Without looking at their individual CVs, just from watching games, a lot of players in the Prem have similar straight line speed to their Rabo counterparts, the kicking out of hand (and off the tee) is just as good, and the passing is often better, maybe because they do more of it, rather than pick & drive/kick & chase.

rugbydreamer wrote:Yes but where were they playing week in, week out? Where were tehy training week in week out? It was with the Prem clubs, not the regions.

How do you think some of the older players get academy conracts anyway? Often it's by playing well for their Prem side.

Don't think anyone is denying there's a step up, but I certainly don't think it's as massive as it used to be, and most definitely not an enormous one

With more regional input into the feeder clubs, in terms of coaching feedback and fitness etc, that is happening now, the Prem is only going to keep improving quality wise.

They train every day with the regions. That is who their employer is. That is where they get their rugby education. 40 hours a week with their employers versus 6 hours a week in the WP.

Older players don't get Academy contracts. The Academy stops at 20, then they move on to development contracts.

Smirnoffpriest wrote:Well there's Lloyd Burns - wasn't he a brickie or an electrition?

He's one. Selected ahead of better players, mind you, but that's the Gatland way.

aha a fellow pedant.

The development contracts then, they are still being handed out, you are still seeing players that have slipped through age grade nets being picked up, are you not?

And I've given you names, Prem players are making the step up, yet you still maintain the gulf between the Prem and regions is 'enormous'?

gowales wrote:Just to clarify, my point was more that the Blues and Dragons are so poor nowadays rather than the Premiership being strong.

You needn't have bothered, the implication was obvious enough.

rugbydreamer wrote:aha a fellow pedant.

The development contracts then, they are still being handed out, you are still seeing players that have slipped through age grade nets being picked up, are you not?

And I've given you names, Prem players are making the step up, yet you still maintain the gulf between the Prem and regions is 'enormous'?

You didn't give me names of Prem players. You gave me the names of full time professionals playing in the WP.

I'm not sure of any successful player who has slipped through the age net, bar Burns. Certainly none spring to mind. Which are you thinking of?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

gowales wrote:Just to clarify, my point was more that the Blues and Dragons are so poor nowadays rather than the Premiership being strong.

You needn't have bothered, the implication was obvious enough.

The Ospreys and Scarlets aren't that much better to be honest, but they are.

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:aha a fellow pedant.

The development contracts then, they are still being handed out, you are still seeing players that have slipped through age grade nets being picked up, are you not?

And I've given you names, Prem players are making the step up, yet you still maintain the gulf between the Prem and regions is 'enormous'?

You didn't give me names of Prem players. You gave me the names of full time professionals playing in the WP.

I'm not sure of any successful player who has slipped through the age net, bar Burns. Certainly none spring to mind. Which are you thinking of?

Pete Edwards?

Andy Fenby? He certainly hasn't come through age grade.

rugbydreamer wrote:
Pete Edwards?

Andy Fenby? He certainly hasn't come through age grade.

Fenby came from Newcastle.

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:
Pete Edwards?

Andy Fenby? He certainly hasn't come through age grade.

Fenby came from Newcastle.

Bugger, I was going to say Alex Cuthbert, but he's from Gloucester originally. What are the rules here?

He cam from Newcastle Uni, played his rugby in North Wales before that. Then was brought on a development contract to prove himself in the Prem (funny that?).

What I want to know is if you think the standard of the Prem is so poor in comparison, what would you do to imrpove it? How would you like to see things changed for more players to make the move up?

Rugby is changing and academy and development palyers of the region are fed to the, wait for it, feeder clus, to get game time and develop so then they are more able to make the step up to regional rugby. The regions wouldn't be sending their players to the prem clubs if the standard wasn't good enough. Again, funny that

Casartelli wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:
Pete Edwards?

Andy Fenby? He certainly hasn't come through age grade.

Fenby came from Newcastle.

Bugger, I was going to say Alex Cuthbert, but he's from Gloucester originally. What are the rules here?

Cuthbert came through the Cardiff Academy

Actualyl you know what, Liam Williams is another. Was working as a scaffolder when Gareth Jenkins spotted him and he was offered a development contract with the Scarlets. Had to prove himself in the Prem first.

Where else can the regions send their players for an affordable price, without loaning them out?

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:aha a fellow pedant.

The development contracts then, they are still being handed out, you are still seeing players that have slipped through age grade nets being picked up, are you not?

And I've given you names, Prem players are making the step up, yet you still maintain the gulf between the Prem and regions is 'enormous'?

You didn't give me names of Prem players. You gave me the names of full time professionals playing in the WP.

I'm not sure of any successful player who has slipped through the age net, bar Burns. Certainly none spring to mind. Which are you thinking of?

Prem players, but not full time pros who play in the Prem...

...this is giving me a migraine now, but I'm going to drill into this, do some web based research. Get some names.

rugbydreamer wrote:He cam from Newcastle Uni, played his rugby in North Wales before that. Then was brought on a development contract to prove himself in the Prem (funny that?).

What I want to know is if you think the standard of the Prem is so poor in comparison, what would you do to imrpove it? How would you like to see things changed for more players to make the move up?

Rugby is changing and academy and development palyers of the region are fed to the, wait for it, feeder clus, to get game time and develop so then they are more able to make the step up to regional rugby. The regions wouldn't be sending their players to the prem clubs if the standard wasn't good enough. Again, funny that

If the standard was good enough then the likes of Hobbs and Andrews wouldn't be needing Romanian back up. I've seen my club win the WP and I've seen how it's done. I've seen the good youngsters shine at that level and I've seen very average professionals do exactly the same. That's why I know the gulf is massive. Look at the Rags results this season and the correlation is clear - when the team has professionals in it then it wins. Funny that.

How would I make the Prem better? I'd get rid of the daft Participation Agreement and I'd make it a 10 team league with four teams ringfenced - the Academy teams of the four professional clubs. I'd get rid of Newport, Cardiff, Llanelli and Swansea from that set up entirely and I'd allow the other four complete independence over who they signed.

I'd do the above if my real preference, joining the Aviva A league (to make that a full, season long competition) was impossible.

Surely any promising youngster should be picked up by the regional/prem development system at an early age, otherwise the systems not working. If these promising/good players are playing in the Prem then they are improving that team and thus the league - they are also increasing competition, skills and standards and improving the players around them (as they are training with the other Llandovery/Llanelli/Quins ect players).
The Prem is further improved by players dropping down from the regional squads to get gametime at the prem clubs - like Snyman was going to do, and Rhodri Williams, Emyr Phillips, Aled Thomas, Barrie Davies ect.

rugbydreamer wrote:Actualyl you know what, Liam Williams is another. Was working as a scaffolder when Gareth Jenkins spotted him and he was offered a development contract with the Scarlets. Had to prove himself in the Prem first.

Williams played for Llanelli whilst 18, didn't he?

rugbydreamer wrote:He cam from Newcastle Uni, played his rugby in North Wales before that. Then was brought on a development contract to prove himself in the Prem (funny that?).

What I want to know is if you think the standard of the Prem is so poor in comparison, what would you do to imrpove it? How would you like to see things changed for more players to make the move up?

Rugby is changing and academy and development palyers of the region are fed to the, wait for it, feeder clus, to get game time and develop so then they are more able to make the step up to regional rugby. The regions wouldn't be sending their players to the prem clubs if the standard wasn't good enough. Again, funny that

Probably more because that's the most affordable way of giving players game time.

I don't think they are sending them there because it's such a high standard

gowales wrote:Where else can the regions send their players for an affordable price, without loaning them out?

Some of them are loaned out as the WP team pays for their services.

Exactly right Priest. That is how the Prem is supposed to and is working, or at least it is for those feeder clubs that are fully participating with their region.

THe quality is increased when those that get game time move back down to their Premiership team.

Phil - you are right in saying that a lot of the academy players train with the regional team, however you are ignoring where it is they are playing week in, week out. THey are playing in the premiership. If the premiership was so poor, then they would not be catching the eye of the regional coaches now would they?

Also, the regions came in 10 years ago. any young and up and coming player moving through the ranks in Welsh rugby, gets picked up at a v young age. These days the guys you are on about, who would have missed out on that system, are going to be circa 28 years old now. The regions wont' be focusing on them, they'll be looking at the younger players (Like Phillips, Murphy, Warren etc) and they are all being picked up.

They get training experience with their region but they get the game time experience in the Prem.

I've seen my Prem side win the title too and know what that takes. Squad rotation and development, and good links with your region to gain player exeperience. It works

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Actualyl you know what, Liam Williams is another. Was working as a scaffolder when Gareth Jenkins spotted him and he was offered a development contract with the Scarlets. Had to prove himself in the Prem first.

Williams played for Llanelli whilst 18, didn't he?

Don't think so, think he came to us at 19/20.

He's from the O's region and they didn't pick up on him during school ages (which would include 18 I do believe)

rugbydreamer wrote:Actualyl you know what, Liam Williams is another. Was working as a scaffolder when Gareth Jenkins spotted him and he was offered a development contract with the Scarlets. Had to prove himself in the Prem first.

What could Liam Williams have been doing on the scaffolding that even gave the slightest hint that he'd be good at rugby?

Casartelli wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Actualyl you know what, Liam Williams is another. Was working as a scaffolder when Gareth Jenkins spotted him and he was offered a development contract with the Scarlets. Had to prove himself in the Prem first.

What could Liam Williams have been doing on the scaffolding that even gave the slightest hint that he'd be good at rugby?

Gypo is just that good as a talent spotter Cas

Sanjay would have been playing for us local side I'd assume, got spotted, and got offered a contract. Doesn't change the fact he was working as a scaffolder at the time though

rugbydreamer wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

rugbydreamer wrote:Actualyl you know what, Liam Williams is another. Was working as a scaffolder when Gareth Jenkins spotted him and he was offered a development contract with the Scarlets. Had to prove himself in the Prem first.

Williams played for Llanelli whilst 18, didn't he?

Don't think so, think he came to us at 19/20.

He's from the O's region and they didn't pick up on him during school ages (which would include 18 I do believe)

w=ww.scarlets.co.uk/eng/5069.php

In 2009 he was 18.