Heineken Cup Round 1 (Pool 1): Edinburgh Rugby v Saracens

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Saturday 13 October 2012
Murrayfield Stadium, Edinburgh
Kick off: 15:35
Referee: John Lacey (Ireland)

Teams:

Edinburgh:

15 Tom Brown,
14 Lee Jones,
13 Nick De Luca,
12 Matt Scott,
11 Tim Visser,

10 Greig Laidlaw (capt),
9 Richie Rees,

8 Stuart McInally,
7 Ross Rennie,
6 David Denton,
5 Sean Cox,
4 Grant Gilchrist,
3 Willem Nel,
2 Ross Ford,
1 John Yapp.

Replacements:
16 Andy Titterrell, 17 Allan Jacobsen, 18 Geoff Cross, 19 Robert McAlpine, 20 Netani Talei, 21 Chris Leck, 22 Harry Leonard, 23 Dougie Fife

Saracens:

15 Alex Goode,
14 Chris Ashton,
13 Joel Tomkins,
12 Brad Barritt,
11 David Strettle,

10 Charlie Hodgson,
9 Richard Wigglesworth,

8 Jackson Wray,
7 Will Fraser,
6 Kelly Brown,
5 Mouritz Botha,
4 Steve Borthwick (capt),
3 Matt Stevens,
2 Schalk Brits,
1 Mako Vunipola.

Replacements:
16 John Smit, 17 Rhys Gill, 18 Petrus du Plessis, 19 George Kruis, 20 Andy Saull, 21 Neil de Kock, 22 Owen Farrell, 23 Chris Wyles

Current form in domestic league:

Edinburgh:

9th Place - Played 6: W 2 D 0 L 4 - 12 points

Saracens:

4th Place - Played 6: W 4 D 1 L 1 - 20 points

Last year's Heineken Cup:

Edinburgh:

Semi-finalists (lost 22-19 to Ulster at the Aviva Stadium)

Saracens:

Quarter-finalists (lost 3-22 to ASM Clermont Auvergne at Vicarage Road)

Most definitely, I don't think Saracens have a great chance this year, they need more stings to their bow before they're capable of progressing deep into the knockout stages. But I do think they'll leave Edinburgh thinking they executed their gameplan perfectly and that Edinburgh looked bad because of Saracens rather than their own failings. They have a knack of making teams look terrible.

I'm not a Saracens supporter by the way.

Sarries should be pretty chuffed with the outcome of todays games. Gives them a great chance of progressing.

From an Edinburgh perspective there's nothing to say really. Utterly awful.

Rather fitting that I chose monkeys as the Edinburgh graphic when setting up this thread.

I'll pick the cartoon face vomiting or the facepalm next time.

Trying to think of things Bradley can do.

Play Neil Back is still the best I've come up with......

Hopefully that's the wake-up call Edinburgh have needed recently, getting absolutely trounced at home in such a fashion was embarrassing.

If they don't respond next week last season will be written off as a fluke, which would be unfair representation of their performances.

I had hoped getting comprehensively beaten by the dragons and pounded at home by treviso and munster would have been a wake-up call. Sadly the fact is that edinburgh have been urine poor this season. Forwards weak, selections odd, tactics non-existant and bakc play confused.

I'm in a dark place.

match fixing anyone ?

Agree with you about selections FES, they have been fairly erratic which I have put down to Bradley trying to get the right balance from his old and new players.

Firstly, I think a big mistake today was to not have Talaei starting. last season he was a key individual to Edinburgh's success in the HC and the sort of player who gets a team fired up. Obviously one player can't win a game but he should have been in the starting XV in my opinion.

Secondly, the tactics were very odd. I noticed the backline were lining up quite deep in the 1st half, much like Scotland when AR first arrived. I think this just gave Saracens more time to defend and rush up to put us under pressure, as was seen by some of the big hits and double tackles on De Luca, Yapp etc. Saracens tactics were calculated. Their Tactics in defence were very effective and I think we made it easy for them by having the backs so deep instead of flat with quick ball.

3rd, we got sucked into a territorial kicking game at times which against someone like Hogdson and Goode was never going to work. This resulted in kicks out on the full and silly mistakes (Tom Brown had a shocker and we missed Tonks big time today)

My overall feeling is the tactics were wrong and nearly 50% of players had a very bad game. At half time there was still a good chance to get back into the game but after making no ground it felt as though half the players just threw in the towel with 20mins to go. Full credit to Saracens though, they played very well with minimal mistakes. Stupid mistakes have been one of the biggest issues for Edinburgh so far this season and MUST be addressed!

I was impressed with Denton despite a few errors. After lot of injury problems he is steadily getting back to form and I liked the fact he was angry with himself when he knocked ball on. Talaei was fresh legs but he was brilliant when he came on. Visser was doing well before he went off. Scrum was okay/good in first half but absolutely awful in the 2nd. Nel should have played a full 80 in my opinion with Yapp coming off. Nel is our best prop and should be playing 80 mins every game.

The squad rotation has really done my nut in this season. The front row and backrow especially have been pretty much one week on one week off - you don't get battle hardened match sharpness doing that!

Good summary bsando - Talei was one of the stars of the whole tournament last year and should have been starting. I suspect he'll come in for McInally next week.

Nel did OK too - scrum went downhill when Cross was on.

Really been struggling to work out what Edinburgh can do in a week to improve this? What's very clear to see is that these guys do not possess a massive amount of spirit and heart. There's a lot of anger on social media and understandably so - most of the comments that the fans have been let down and the players didn't even look bothered.



A few basic things to do though:

Work on the feckin lineout!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How could it be so bad? Do they not work on it all week? It looked like 8 blokes just got together and decide to do lineouts without discussing it first. The one early on on our own 5m when Ford limply threw it at Nel who knocked on was shocking.

Find some baws from somewhere - they are far too soft and need to get angry and show that they actually care

Learn how to pass to your teamate, as opposed to the touchline or the ground

Teach Tom Brown that it is OK to kick to touch sometimes

Get Tonks back fit! He was massively missed today - Tom brown directly leaked around 10 points and plenty possession by not kicking back the kicks. he can also kick to touch well for penalties.

Score some feckin points!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





It's worrying at least 7 of those guys are going to be playing NZ soon.

Was at work today and Sky+ crashed so not seeing the game any time soon. Were Edinburgh really that bad? I mean, being nilled and conceding 50 points at home is a joke.

Worst display I've seen in a very long time.

Yeah the line out was atrocious. I think Ford deserves the blame for that, he was throwing badly. He had a bad game in my opinion and seemed negative at times. Hopefully AR will address that before NZ or god help us.

Just goes to show how important basic aspects of the game can be. Edinburgh had several promising scenarios to put Saracens under pressure and in the end Saracens didn't have to do anything to force Edinburgh into making basic errors. Psychologically that must have made Saracens feel confident. You could hear them shouting in celebration congratulating each other when Edinburgh knocked on 5m from try line. My feeling is the team still need to gel and are in for a rough season unless they do so quickly.

7 of that motley shower playing the ABs huh - we will see ! As our esteemed leader (TBBE) has often said he will pick on form and then he goes and picks his wee pals. Has it taken so long to realise Ford is utter gash - who can forget that rugby colossus Ronan O'Gara running over him ay Murrayfield a few years ago. And Cross another total numpty who was taken apart by the Romanians at RWC11. WTF was Laidlaw doing and more to the point Brown ? Unbelievable that anyone thought he was an International standard FB.

Just hope the Warriors show some cojones tomorrow and at least give Northampton a game. Otherwise Murrayfield is going to be like next month for the AIs !!!

Jeebus awful result for Edinburgh. What went wrong or were Saracens just awesome?

Should be no excuses for needing time to gel - only 3 players in the starting team weren't involved last year!

Rodders - sarries were good at what sarries do best, and that was combined with us being truly awful!

Edinburgh are my second team and that unbelievable result pretty much rules out my HC interest this season....
I don't understand how a team with so many current internationals can get it so wrong in both attitude and application. Strange.

Hells bells that's a disaster... can't think of anything positive to say really except to say for fiec sake give a better account of yourselves in the return leg

I think a sports psychologist would make millions if he could solve the problem of the psyche of Scottish rugby players....

I'll get my misses on the case, she's an educational psychologist who has done sports psychology too, some of the chat from the players on social media is pretty child like so the two could go hand in hand!

Rodders - it was a bewildering day if you're an Edinburgh fan.

The English press will doubtless crow about Sarries overall dominance, but in actual fact nobody on their side played out of their minds. The team played to its standard league form only. Sadly, that was more than enough against a side that (a) was clearly nervous as hell, not that this is an excuse for professionals and internationals (b) played without any cohesion given that the nucleas of the team has been together for 18 months and (c) seemed not to have studied their opponents at all.

The latter is, I'm sorry, Bradley's fault. Sarries run a blitz defence as standard and it should not have been beyond the wit of the Edinburgh coaching staff to tell them that standing so far behind the gainline to combat it invariably puts more pressure on a team territorially.

Similarly, when Hodgson was listed, it was obvious that the Sarries route 1 kicking game was on the cards. Why then, would you remove your best punt returner in Tonks (who wasn't injured) from the starting XV? Brown clearly is far from being the complete package at 15 - those people watching endless highlight reels of his fast feet will now realise that his tactical kicking game leaves a lot to be desired. Hogg is much more advanced.

But the greatest crime to any Scotland fan will always be a lack of commitment and in the last half hour they looked like they didn't give a feic. Looked awfully like a side crushed under the weight of expectation.

Well at least Visser showed how one dimensional Ashton is, all he does is score tries. Visser on the other hand can miss tackles, look frustrated , and get hurt.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Well at least Visser showed how one dimensional Ashton is, all he does is score tries. Visser on the other hand can miss tackles, look frustrated , and get hurt.

All about pressure.

Lots of talk from Edinburgh side about how poor their side were. It's true they were. On the other hand Saracens never allowed Edinburgh to settle and build any sort of momentum. Saracens made very few errors and the defense was brutal. Saracens have proven time and again to be one of the toughest sides to score against. Saracens made Edinburgh look a worse side than they are because it's part of the gameplan. Saracens also showed they can attack too when they've got the buffer to cut loose.

IMO it was a horrible mismatch for Edinburgh in regards to styles. Edinburgh were not allowed the freedom to carry out their own game plan. They danced to the Saracen's tune.

I have no doubt there will be far tougher encounters than this but the performance and result was pleasing.

This result tells you that Saracens can score tries.

Would not take anything away from Saracens as that was an impressive display. It was the lack of fight (and a plan B) from Edinburgh that was surprising. Total lack of committment from them. Very, very poor. Was Robinson there to see his pals throw in the towel ???

It'll be interesting to see if Saracens play in the same style for the next match. Def seems to work.

Congrats Saracens, now all we need is Leicester and Saints to hold up their end of the deal today and stuff the French/Scots and the English clubs will be off to a good start.

Good work Saracens. Just had the chance to watch the replay, and although people are saying Edinburgh played bad, which is undeniable, it was Sarries playing good disciplined Rugby. For once they opened up enough to give Ashton & Goode some ball .. and look what happens!

Edinburgh were destroyed by the aggressive defence that Saracen's employ. It is a stunningly good defence and turned the Edinburgh players into startled rabbits. Their ability to attack ball in had was wrested from them - every time they tried to throw the ball wide they lost ground, significant amounts of ground. They had nowhere else to go after that.

After that the Saracens players managed to pass the ball and catch it - something they have struggled with this season.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I see Will Carling is still a arrogant numpty.

Yes how arrogant of him to think Edinburgh had a chance of taking a point from this

Sadly for Edi, I think the difference was Saracens were simply better at each position 1-15 across the pitch. Sometimes by a lot, mostly a little better. That gulf in talent started to tell the longer the match went on. Given that, a one sided match became inevitable.

The question now is whether this gulf in talent speaks more about Saracens or Edinburgh. And the impact on the rest of the Pool, which is a difficult one.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:I see Will Carling is still a arrogant numpty.

Yes how arrogant of him to think Edinburgh had a chance of taking a point from this

PSW - I have oft wondered whether your inestimable self and Bumface have ever been seen in the same room.

AlastairW wrote:Good work Saracens. Just had the chance to watch the replay, and although people are saying Edinburgh played bad, which is undeniable, it was Sarries playing good disciplined Rugby. For once they opened up enough to give Ashton & Goode some ball .. and look what happens!

Totally agree with you, I said just that in my rather lengthy post above. I was very impressed with Sarries yesterday and they deserve credit for their win 100%.

I don't think Sarries were that much better individually. Edinburgh played well well below thier potential. Why? Dunno but Bradley needs to have a good look at himself.

Glad to see a lot of the edinburgh players are taking the defeat hard......NOT!! various members of yesterdays team on twitter boasting buying 52inch tvs, new mercedes etc!

Not entirely true, Bomber is pleased by his new Tele. Denton tweeted

Big thank you to all the supporters today for sitting through that disgraceful performance. Not good enough alot to improve and fix

think you'll actually find "bomber" has put big buy today, much needed pick me up after yesterday.
I'm all for players needing their down time but the amount of the edinburgh players that are constantly on twitter and facebook is maybe needing looked at by management especially after embarrassing defeats like yesterday!

Agreed Majestic, was just trying to,add some balance to your first post.

Yeah it just annoys me that some not all the players don't seem to take these defeats seriously and to heart. Apparently some of them were seen in a few of George streets establishments last night as well.
The fans who were there yesterday paid a lot of money to get in and it doesn't give a great image when players have been so poor and then showing off about expensive buys and heading off on nights out etc, especially when there are just as good players not being given a chance at pro level.

so why were Edinburgh so poor? The main part of the team were the QF from last year and who beat.

I must confess to turning off the TV after 45 mins so didn't see most of the secondhalf but from what I saw:

Poor decision making - OK running the ball and moving it wide was the way to go but as Sarries really started to use the blitz where was the chip over the top' the short runs off inside passes? Was this Laidlaws Fault?

The early part Edinburgh got plenty of quick ball and did make some yards but too many mistakes led to them playing from duff field position and ultimately going behind. Did they panic?

Early in the Second half ( after which the TV went off) with Sarries a forward short Edinburgh were pushed backwards and conceded a penalty in a scrum WTF? Who carries the can for that?

Sarries compete well at lineouts - but this was entirely predictable. Edinburgh should have been able to counter this.

The frustrating thing about the lineout was that Sarries didn't have to do much to win some of them - there was a complete breakdown in communication on several occasions and the ball just went to no one.

LondonTiger wrote:There are some fascinating matches this weekend. This one right up near the top of the list.

Were Edinburgh flattered by their HC run last season?

Do Sarries have the potential to be as good as I think they have, or are their current performances an indication of where they are?


The backline has not clicked for Sarries yet this season - but it will, and it may do this weekend.

I guess the jury is still out on both questions.

This result though does lend credence to the suggestion that Edinburgh are not as good as the HC run last year may have suggested. Pressure still on both teams - Edinburgh have to produce a performance at thomond while Saracens will not want to ruin the perfect start when they host RM in Brussells.

Edinburgh Rugby are a bunch of namby-pamby cowards as was evident yesterday !

Chances of winning in thomond - zero.

Scotland in horrible shape for these AIs. The edinburgh players should all be sweating their places.

PSW .... thanks for digging up my comment from Friday. That really added to the discussion and is a fantastic contribution to this forum

I have never seen Edinburgh play that badly. They were utterly rubbish. Out of the whole team only Denton and DeLuca looked interested. I am one of Visser's biggest fans but why does he foul himself when it comes to making tackles. He pussed out of a lot of contact in that 1st half.

Furthermore what was going on in the scrums? From where I was standing the Sarries front row were constantly standing up and being awarded penalites?

As for the Lineout, what a shambles. It's not even as if the Sarries had to work to disrupt our line out, we practicaly gift wrapped the ball for them.

For pro players that performance was simply not good enough. Sarries were not outstanding, they did the basics well and made very few mistakes. Edinburgh on the otherhand were in complete disarray.

You can't win rugby matches making that many mistakes. A lot to work on but nowhere near enough time. If we can't get something from Thormond, pull the plug on the ERC and focus on the pro12.

Why is such little credit being given to how Saracens played?

So many posts before the game belittled their chances, whilst after the game it is all about how bad Edinburgh were. It was the Sarries rush defence that created the panic in the Edinburgh team, and it was the sarries new found precision that saw them get the TBP.

I know that Sarries are hard to like - but the disrespect being shown to them is rather epic.

LondonTiger

Absolutely agree. Some of the hits were brutal.

Saracens didn't make many errors at all. I think they nailed every lineout. Their kicking was excellent,even Ashton. Don't remember the ball being dropped much. Much more clinical in attack than usual.

Would be interesting to see the stats.

Saracens yielded Edinburgh nothing bar an interception where Richie Rees got overhauled by Fraser and Brits. Even with the consequent sin bin and scrum on the Saracens line, Saracens didn't yield.

Edinburgh were given no respite or allowed to gain a foothold in the game.

Saracens are such an irritating side for opposition to play. They slow your ball down, try and destroy your lineout and smash you whenever you try and attack. They aren't unbeatable but they have the ability to make the opposition look bad.

Hopefully I have not been disrespectful of Sarries - if I have I apologise.

I just think their performance has to be put into perspective with how bad we were. Yes their defence and aggression caused a lot of that, but there were numerous things that we did that were directly our own doing and Sarries had to do nothing to get.

For example the lineouts - Sarries stole a few cleanly which is fair enough, but there were several lineouts where there was a compelte breakdown in communication from Edinburgh and the ball went to no one.

Similarly the passes to deck or touch - some of those were from Sarries blitz, but a lot of them were when the players were not under pressure. The one where Gilchrist had a 2 on 1 with Denton and passed it to the touch line is a case in point.

Yes Sarries did well in a lot of aspects of play to make Edinburgh poor, but it has to be put into perspective with how poor Edinburgh were by their own making.

I'd also like to add to that stupid penalties, especially in the first half - Yapp coming in from the side, players off side etc. Poor decision making.

You mis understand my post Tiger. Being a Scottish supporter I'm used to having good results being belittled by everyone else.

I'm not saying Sarries weren't good, they were. The score line demonstrates it was one way traffic more or less from start to finish.

What I'm saying is Sarries did enough to win the game, no more. I'm grateful that they kicked for the posts as often as they did in the 1st half or the result might have been much worse for Edinbutgh.

Their defence was water tight, they kicked very well for possesion and their line out worked well. I can't really say much about their scrums since from my point of view they looked to be struggling but got a lot of help from the referee in that department. Their line out also received no less than half a dozen gift wrapped line out throws from Ross Ford who had a howler.

Sarries were not outstanding. They were good but not great. Had they seen in the 1st half that Edinburgh were shaken and decided to kick for the corner with even 2 of hodgesons penalties it would have been a rout before half time.

Your right though Sarries are not an endearing team to watch play. It was like drowning in wallpaper paste for long periods of the game.

If they play like that for the rest of the tournament I think Sarries are in with a great chance of wining the HC this year.

LondonTiger wrote: ... but the disrespect being shown to them is rather epic.

+1

Sarries out played Edinburgh, there's nothing more to it. Edinburgh need to look to where they went wrong and see what they can do from here on out. Congrats Sarries.