Vitali v Foreman

Who wins? Foreman is ranked in most people's top 10 ATG heavyweight mainly off the back of his demolition of Frazier and Norton. Also winning the title back at age 45. A phenomenal puncher and a very intimidating fighter. But after watching many of his early fights, was he that good? Arguably Joe and Kenny were made for him.

But Vitali is an entirely different proposition. A good boxer with excellent skills coupled with a very good jab. Watching some of George's fights, he wings his punches in, in huge arcs. He pawed his jab and clubbed his opponents. Vitali would spear in a jab and keep out of Foreman's way. Plus he would be able to take some of George's punched when they did land. I can see Vitali winning a wide UD over 15 rounds with Vit weathering the early storm. I wouldn't write of a late KO either. Vitali is under-appreciated and perhaps Foreman over-rated.

Thoughts?

Hard to choose and would be a good fight

Foreman deserves to be ranked higher than vitali in all time lists without being a hole lot better. Vitali has height and reach advantages over George and the vitali that showed up vs Lewis could could give George fits

George liked to wing big hooks in and got a lot of leverage into those punches but he would have to take shots to get his own off

The question is can vitali takes George's power which was ferocious as Lewis caught him enough to suggest foreman could so can he withstand them

Its an intersting one to ponder, because you would wonder about Foremans vulnerability if Vitali was still in there around the halfway mark. Vitali has proven durability, but you would think if there was anyone capable of knocking him out it would probably be Foreman. It would be a real battle of strength up close with both guys being physically very strong.

I suppose the closest thing you could pick out would be maybe Sanders when he threw the kitchen sink at Vitali and gave him problems but was ultimately outlasted. I would probably agree with your assessment that the fight probably comes down to whether Foreman can wear down Vitali early or else run the risk of being beaten over the second half of the fight. It would be a very interesting physical battle as both guys could hurt each other and Foreman liked to push and shove whereas Vitali would have the size and strength to avoid be bullied as well as the durability to avoid being blasted out.

Very interesting match up, Az. Hats off.

Not sure I can quite make top and tail of it myself. I agree with the general idea that, if the fight goes past the mid way stage, you'd have to make Vitali the big favourite. Foreman remained a shockingly one-paced fighter right throughout his career, and I don't see Vitali being felled the way Moorer was.

I actually don't think that Vitali's height will pose any problems for George, insofar as it won't prevent him from getting his shots off. Vitali gets hit, always has, and while he owns an excellent set of whiskers I'm not sure he's faced anyone with fists as malevolent as Foreman's. This would be an extremely rare case in which he'd be facing someone who could match, perhaps even better, him in the strength department, too.

I think if they boxed a series of bouts long enough Vitali definitely picks up a couple of decision wins, but I'd say the percentage call, the one I'd go for maybe six times out of ten, would be for Foreman to do just enough early on. Rushes Vitali early, manages to push him back just enough and floors him a couple of times before forcing a stoppage in, say, the fifth.

Not an easy one to call, though. I've always maintained that, although he's perhaps a shade thin on his resumé in comparison, Vitali matches up pretty well with most Heavyweights gone before who we consider great, and could certainly beat a fair few of them.

I think it would great fight. Im not sure I see Vitali being able to keep Foreman off him just using the jab in a sort of box and move way. I think it would be a more blood and guts battle with exchanges in the trenches. Yo would have to think Foreman is going to get his own chin tested also and he could be a little ragged defensively himself and was probably the more vulnerable to punching himself out.

The more I think of it, the harder it is to imagine Foreman winning on points. And then equally its a tall order to try and go in and stop someone as big and durable as Vitali within say 6/7 rounds. But if anyone could it would be Foreman you would think. I think the opening exchanges would be pretty brutal give and take stuff. Either Vitali gets clubbed into submission in a Chuvalo-esque manner, possibly stopped after an unanswered barrage on the ropes, or else hes able to survive Foreman and beat him over the second half of the fight. Really wouldnt fancy Foreman if Vitali is still in there after 6 rounds so the first few rounds of action would crucial. Could be a classic collision and hard to call.

Agree completely with WHU that the quality of George's opposition entitles him to higher ranking than Vitali without making him necessarily the better man.

Like the rest of you, I find this one fascinating. I wonder whether there is a clue in the Lewis fight, where Vitali actually started off like a train, but was eventually reduced to something of a crawl, partly by Lennox's size and partly by those terrific uppercuts later on.

George was a big lad, and although shown to be somewhat lacking in stamina by Ali, could go the distance when required. I'm not totally sure that I row in with the idea that Vitali is a guaranteed points winner. The older incarnation of George gave plenty of aggravation to young, strong boxers of high repute. Holyfield, a more skilled operator than Klitschko, was all out to impose himself on George - what price Vitali doing so on prime Foreman?

If they fought on ten occasions, I'd go for Foreman to take the honours on seven or eight of them. Not by the early route, though. These are both durable men; other than the ridiculous Lyle fight, George wasn't often blasted off his feet when fresh; nor has Vitali ever been in such a position. I could see a late stoppage or a points decision for either man, but I would take Foreman as the percentage call, however the fight should finish.

Foreman always fought as the 'big man'. Against Vitali K he would be the small man. Unless 'big' George could develop some (never seen before) speed he would take a lot of punishment.

Old George was more durable and paced himself alot better for me. I think the younger one was alot more dangerous but I do think he was susceptible to running out of steam and guilty of failing to pace himself for a distance fight. He fought every round like he was trying to take the opponent out. If Vitali was still there after 6 and had managed to soak up Foremans early onslaught I could see him taking charge of the fight over the second half. I think the contest would be fought at such a pace over the first few rounds that it would favour Vitali in the second half of the fight if he had managed to survive. I think hes better equipped at range fighting and pacing himself for the second half of the fight where both fighters would be weary from the first few potentially explosive rounds.

It never fails to astound me how the Klistchko"s abilities are held in sich high esteem, based on their great victories over...

Anyway, the fight. Foreman's become underrated over time in my opinion. He had more than just a punch, but the punch he had could knock out anyone. His speed at closing off the ring was excellent in his earliest incarnation, along with good timing on his shots and a great chin. I wouldn't hesitate to pick him to topple Vitali and quick. Simple reason being that Vitali has always relied on his chin, and if any fighter relies on his chin against Foreman he's going down. I wouldn't pick anybody apart from maybe Liston to go to Foreman and survive.

The idea that if Vitali can somehow survive early he's a winner is a curious one. I don't think I've ever seen Vitali in a fight with the pace of the early rounds of a young Foreman fight, yet after 6 rounds against Lewis he was dead on his feet. The reason Vitali appears to have great stamina is because his opponents dance to his tune and fight at his pace, there's no way Foreman would do that. Vitali isn't mobile enough to avoid him and that's what you need.

This is an excellent example of how heavyweights have changed over the times. I watch some Foreman fights and I see signs that if he's not having things his own way, able to land with big overhands - he becomes somewhat slugger in terms of his style - his jab wasn't ever anything to write home about, and he was susceptible to being frustrated by boxers with a very good jab - Vitali has one of the best I've seen.

I think Foreman was too used to being the bigger harder man, I can't see Vitali being knocked out, as he wouldn't be hit with Foremans best, he's simply too big and too well rounded to get involved. He's also been hit with a train crash of an uppercut by Lewis and not gone down, and I see Foremans only way in would be on the inside.

So, if Foreman can get Vitali into a slugfest, I'd go for Foreman in 3/4. If Vitali stood tall and boxed behind his jab, I'd go for a Foreman burnout in 7/8 and a KO for Vitali in 9/10. If Vitali lets Foreman fight on the inside I can see it being a MD or SD either way.

I dont think anyone actually argues the Klitschkos ability based on their great win column. But it is actual possible to be a top fighter nonetheless or to have a lack of competition to undersell you. In a about of decade of boxing Vitali has only lost a handful of rounds so he is doing something right.

I dont really agree Foreman has become underrated. In what sense? He almost always features highly in lists either on head to head or achievements. I dont see how Vitali has always relied on his chin either. His chin has held up when its had to but hes won the vast majority of his fights by being the better boxer. He has shown he can take big shots from hard hitting heavyweights when hes had to.

I think its exaggerating to say Vitali was dead on his feet after 6 against Lewis. He wanted to continue the fight. Forman though we have seen punch hmself out and lose over 12 rounds which has never happened to Vitali. I would agree that the pace of the fight early on would be crucial, but if, and its the big if, Vitali was still in there after 6 then I think its Foreman thats one in the more imminent danger of gassing out or being beaten over the second half of the fight. His style was to go in and end a fight early. If that didnt happen, we have examples where he has lost. Vitali set him up more for a 12 round battle and a wear em down, win the rounds, stop em late kind of style. I dont think he just appears to have good stamina, I think he did actually have good stamina at his prime. Hes been known to throw over 1000 punches a fight which is impressive for a heavyweight of his size.

It seems to be presumed they'd probably match up well against ATG's simply because of a long W collumn of nothing. Bute had a collumn of only wins before facing a top class fighter of his division when he was promptly taken apart. In an era where fans meticulously pick apart the record of any boxer, the K's get by on benefit of the doubt.

By underrated, I may mean Foreman has become misinterpreted as a fighter with only power, when he infact had other attributes trained to an elite level to compliment that power.

When I say he relies on his chin, I mean Vitali does take shots fairly regularly, and if he had the jaw of his brother he wouldn't be able to fight like that. Against the Charr's and Byrds of this world that's fine, but it got him floored against Sanders and Sanders is no Foreman.

Ok by round 6 with Lewis Vitali was knackered, gassing, holding at every opportunity and was in no position to turn a fight around as he'd have to against Foreman. That's the only time he was forced to set a pace even similar to the one he'd have to maintain against Foreman, and against a lesser puncher.

I'm not sold on Vitali's great jab, it's Wlad who has the fine jab but, then again, Bute's jab looked pretty good when he was fighting guys in boxing gloves.

Also, RE Vitali throwing a thousand per fight: I believe that was against Kevin Johnson, and although I don't blame anybody for not watching that dire fight, they weren't what you'd call quality punches. All quite pawing and slappy from memory and nothing was coming back, although it was hardly a memorable fight.

Well I cant speak for everyone, but in my experience the Klitschkos are not rated just because they have a long win column but also because they are talented boxers that hold a big size advantage over all but a handful of other heavyweights. You dont seem to rate them because they dont hold that elite level win which is fair enough but I think they are quite formidable for the reason above and would be a handful in any era. Vitali moreso for his greater durabiliy.

Foreman was good but in my view relied heavily on his power and had a pretty one track approach. He was a bundle of nervous energy that just went into a fight looking to end it asap. This style and method was generally successful but I think it left him in danger of punching himself and leaving him vulnerable in the second half of a fight if the job was not completed. Vitali I think is a proven operator in the later rounds of fights, has better stamina and paces himself better so I see him as holding the advantage over the second half of a fight if Foreman has not got rid of him early on.

Il have to disagree with you on Vitalis stamina. I think he has always displayed good stamina and saying its because boxers dance to his tune is a bit like saying Foremans opponents accomodated him by collapsing within 5 rounds. You have to have the ability to carry it out in the first place and Vitali has regularly displayed this along with a high punch output. Not just the Kevin Johnson fight alone.

Lennox Lewis was far better at pacing himself than young George Foreman so their respective merits over the second half of a fight differ greatly in my view. It unknown what would have happened if Vitali had not got cut or the fight with Lewis continued. I tend to actually think the Lewis fight presented a fair kind picture of Vitali which was that he might not beat every geat but that he would sure be a handful for anyone. I dont see Foreman taking him out easily. If he does it would be after a pretty brutal series of exchanges and in Vitali he would be facing someone with the kind of phsicality he had never really met before, just as Vitali would be meeting someone who could establish a tempo he had never experienced before. I dont see Vitali being able to control Foreman with his jab early, but I think if he lasts into the second half of the fight the jab would be effective over a weary Foreman and would be an effective weapon for Vitali to beat Foreman at a distance and win rounds as well as wearing him down. Tough fight to call I think, Foreman early or Vitali late for me. But then I seem to rate Vitali alot higher as a fighter than you do.

JBW, it's fair enough to level Vitali's comparative absence of notable victims against him, but are we not thereby setting up someonelike Marciano for similar criticism?

Now, I accept that we're not debating Marciano-Foreman, but I'm not sure that we can use the fact that Vitali has been operating in a weak era as a pointer to what might happen if he were to meet Foreman. I agree that the Sanders fight ahould be a worry to anyone tipping Vitali to withstand George's power; to my eye, Vitali also looked rather as though he had shot his bolt against Lewis when the end came, despite his natural protests.

Nevertheless, George has his own questions to answer - gassing against Ali and Young and hugely vulnerable to Lyle's power, he would have to be spot on in both departments not to come a cropper against a top-form Vitali. I believe that in general, he would have had the answers, but I don't think it's entirely cut and dried.

captain carrantuohil wrote:JBW, it's fair enough to level Vitali's comparative absence of notable victims against him, but are we not thereby setting up someonelike Marciano for similar criticism?

Now, I accept that we're not debating Marciano-Foreman, but I'm not sure that we can use the fact that Vitali has been operating in a weak era as a pointer to what might happen if he were to meet Foreman. I agree that the Sanders fight ahould be a worry to anyone tipping Vitali to withstand George's power; to my eye, Vitali also looked rather as though he had shot his bolt against Lewis when the end came, despite his natural protests.

Nevertheless, George has his own questions to answer - gassing against Ali and Young and hugely vulnerable to Lyle's power, he would have to be spot on in both departments not to come a cropper against a top-form Vitali. I believe that in general, he would have had the answers, but I don't think it's entirely cut and dried.

Yes, thought that would make you happy, az. It does mean that you'll have to accept that the Rock is at least comparable with Vitali, mind you, and not something like the 40th best heavyweight of all time!

I gave a list of 50 fighters who would have beaten him. Very surprised that people got genuinely upset as if I'd insulted their mother. Perhaps its because I said Manny with weight stips would beat him. Dunno.

But regarding Foreman/Vitali. I believe Vitali's better boxing skills will win out. Foreman became very untidy as a fight wore on. Even when setting up the finisher, he looked untidy. Mind you, I'm basing a lot of it on the Lyle fight but also the Young fight. I see Vitali as a better athlete and boxer than Young.

Vitali's punch ouput is misleading as well 75% of the 1000 punches thrown were jabs!!!

Foreman is all wrong for Vitali too slow to get out the way of Foreman's power...Anyone that Foreman can find gets knocked out.

Even if Vitali somehow gets into the second half of the fight who is to say Vitali wont be gassed like the Lewis fight.

Also Vitali will have to take a lot of punishment which will take a lot out of him if it got past 6 rounds...Bank on Foreman getting rid of Vitali 8 times out of ten.

Perhaps its because I said Manny with weight stips would beat him.

I think it's the undeniable logic combined with the universality of the argument that unsettles everyone, AZ.

My 16 month old daughter could beat Manny with weight stips. He's have to be prepared to boil down to 35lbs though and I'd be demanding a same day weigh-in.

i dont think vitali has been in with anyone as big a puncher as foreman (very few have) but i really rate vitalli.

i just think he is one extremely tough man who isnt scared of anyone.

i couldnt call it but if i had to bet id say vit.

@Manos
It would appear we simply rate Vitali completely differently from each other, which is no surprise as I probably rate him lower than anyone else on the board.

The crucial area we disagree on being what would happen if Vitali were still around after 6. To me, he'd be on a stretcher by then, but if he were there then the evidence of how fresh he is after 6 hard fought rounds would point to his pain simply being extended.

@Captain
I'm glad you mentioned Rocky, as he's a great example of modern fans picking apart any holes that do or don't exist in records, something the K's are spared from. Also, I'd rate Marciano's best wins as better, and his losses as, well, non existant. Rocky fought better fighters, never lost and had no reason not to fight the best. Yet it's Rocky's record that gets examined and cross examined and Vitali that's put on a pedastle.

As for Foreman's struggles against Ali, Young and Lyle:
Ali is Ali.
By the time he'd fought Young his style had been altered, he fought at a different pace which didn't suit him and didn't hunt for the kill so relentlessly from round one.
Against Lyle it was (I think) his first fight after Ali and his mind would not appear to have been in good nick. Also Lyle's toughness and power should not be underestimated, it takes something to survive a war against Lyle.

Presuming we're taking Foreman at his best I don't think the issues he faced against Lyle and Young would be in the way. As for the struggles against Ali, well Vitali is no Ali.

If we take Foreman at his best, though, JBW, I guess that we are looking almost exclusively at the Frazier and Norton fights, a fairly small sample. I think that we have to look at Young and Lyle as part of his prime, relatively poorly though he performed in those fights.

Let's look at Frazier and Norton in isolation, though. Norton was scared witless, I don't think that anyone would dispute that. To that extent, it's difficult to extrapolate too much from that fight. I'm as sure as I can be that Vitali at least wouldn't have been beaten before the first bell. As for Joe, he was always a slow starter, which was fatal for anyone against George, who duly caught Frazier cold. I can't help thinking that even if he had got warmed up, he was just all wrong for Foreman. That relentless chugging attack was made to measure for the bigger man, who never had to go looking for Frazier. Again, Vitali is a differently shaped beast, and I think that it would take George a good while longer for his punches to have the desired effect.

I think that it would have happened eventually, mind, but not without George shipping a few blows of his own en route.

JBW, Im curious as to who it is you you think puts Vitalis record on pedastal? Certainly I dont think the majority of people do. Whenever I see all time great lists I seldom see Vitali featuring in the top ten. What I think the distinction is that there are alot of people who rate Vitali as a pretty good fighter that matches up well on an actual fight basis with the other top heavyweights. But on record alone I just dont see a great number of people that champion Vitalis as being exceptional. Im also curious as to what it is in Vitalis record or performances that leaves you so underwhelmed? Granted, his lack of elite victories might be reason to rate Foreman as beating him but the impression I get from you is that any sort of half decent heavyweight would beat him and he would be cannon fodder in most other eras.

Marcianos record scrutinised more because he is held in a higher position I think. If it becomes the norm for Vitali to get featured in top ten and top five rankings then I would imagine he would come under alot more scrutiny but really for the most part people havent settled on ranking him while he is still active. I also think with Marciano the fact he is so small and the fact heavyweights have become so big leads to a naturally querying of how he would actually do against heavyweights that outsize him dramatically - something he never had to face in his own era. Realistically Marciano is a small cruiserweight in todays terms.

Also with Foreman, my basic point is that I dont think hes capable of keeping up a ferocious pace for 12 or 15 rounds. He seldom had to do it for more than 8 and against Ali he was punched out after 6 rounds. So IF Vitali if still in the fight after 6 he could easily be left facing an exhausted Foreman who had punched himself out. Iwould also expect Vitali to be able match Foreman for physicality meaning I dont think the opening rounds are just going to be one way traffic. Foreman would have to eat his own share of punches and deal with a 250lb guy who can front up to him and is not easily shoved around.

I don't really see Foremans stamina issues being a problem as Vitali wouldn't be left standing after 3/4 rounds, easy enough to hit and lacking in the power of Lyle or the nouse of Ali to keep himself in the fight. Up close there's only one winner and that's Foreman, Lewis someone not noted for his inside game was able to easily gain the upperhand there.

Foreman KO3

I give Wladimir a better chance against Foreman than Vitali...Harder to hit, better footwork to get out the way, quick speed of hand and foot.

Also has one punch knockout power to take out big George...Something Vitali lacks.

Foreman was only ever stopped once in an 81 fight career and even coming back well past his prime noone could take him out.

So the chin that served him so well throughout his career suddenly gives way against Vitali.

Apart from losing to a past it Lewis what other elite heavyweight has Vitali actually fought and beat.

Nico

How do you think Vitali would have fared against Young, Frazier and Norton? I reckon he would have dealt with them comfortably (Frazier would still be firing back after 12 but Vit wins that one).

Norton soils himself as soon as he sees Vit and loses quickly. Young on a good day could really mess Vitali around. A better version of Chris Byrd, in my opinion. Would still tip Vitali, but not in a chock-full of confidence sort of way.

Frazier-Vitali - now you're talking. Think Vitali has a horrible evening if he doesn't get rid of Joe nice and early. Easy to imagine Joe, in the middle rounds and now properly warmed up, firing in those leaping left hooks to the head and drumming a steady tattoo to the body. Fantastic fight that I'd have paid good money to see.

Not sure Vitali beats Frazier...Vitali would need to take out Frazier early otherwise he has a nightmare getting beat up on the inside.

Chisora fight convinced me Frazier beats Vitali more often than not...Frazier has the perfect style to beat a Klitschko.

Well Id back Frazier over a 41 year old Vitali for sure.

Manos coming to the Klitschko's rescue again.

Vitali is old now. I've said it a gazillion times. Haye beats Vitali now (and a year ago). But Vitali of 10 years ago would KO Haye and Chisora on the same night. Against Frazier I reckon Vitali would sweep the early rounds and one or 2 in the middle to get a points win.

In a 12 round or 15 round fight? I think Frazier chops down Vitali before the 12th round anyway.

Either distance.

Joe was just about the best conditioned heavyweight of all time. If Vitali failed to turn his lights off early and the fight is scheduled for 15, then Vitali is in for a world of pain, whether the fight goes the distance or not. I don't say that Klitschko couldn't win, but by God, he would need to want it badly.

Frazier was only ever beaten by 2 fighters Ali and Foreman,smokin Joe gives Vitali nightmares and Joe would most certainly connect with those hooks and Frazier could fight for 15rounds as we all know.
Frazier wins for me.

Norton could box, with his mind setright, but people tend to remember him for the Foreman loss rather than the great performances against Ali and Holmes, under-rated fighter for me 50/50 against Vitali but Norton quite capable of pulling a points win out of the bag.

Young could upset the odds against Vitali but would fancy Vitali to end this late on.

With respect, Nico, people remember Norton for quailing against Shavers and Cooney as well. If you're not a huge fellow with a punch to match, then Norton is one of your worst nightmares. If, on the other hand, you are, it's early night time. Ken needed to feel secure, and then he was formidable. Don't think Vitali would have allowed him that luxury.

Don't think Vitali does any better against Norton, Frazier, Lyle and Young as Foreman.

Norton- The three men who took him out early include the two biggest punchers of all time in Shavers and Foreman as well as the devastating power of Cooney when he was years removed from his best. Now I don't see the respectable but not devastating power of Vitali scaring him in the same way so wouldn't rule out a Norton points win.

Frazier- Smokin' smothers him with punches all night on the inside on the way to a comfortable points win.

Lyle and Young- much depends on what versions of them turn up but still a considerable step up from anyone Vitali has ever beaten.

I always thought Norton was overrated to be honest...Think Vitali does a number on him.

I would back Vitali against Young and Lyle but come up short against Frazier.

Not sure I can see Frazier stopping Vitali, I have to say. If he's beating the big Ukranian, he's going to have to do it over the distance I'd imagine, barring a halt due to cuts.

There's a distinct lack of knockouts on Joe's record which came against men scaling over fifteen stone or so at any meaningful level, and there's also a pattern showing that, in general, the best chins he faced (Ali, Bugner, Bonavena etc) were capable of lasting the full course with him.

I think it's an endurance contest; Vitali will have to soak up some punishment (if Frazier can get to Ali, albeit a post-exile version, then he can certainly get to Vitali), and Frazier taking a shed load of shots was par for the course. Frazier was wide open to the uppercut, tailor-made for a tall man who had the punch in his arsenal. Sadly, Vitali doesn't (at least not in recent times), and as a result he may not have enough tools to contain Frazier as much as he'd like.

I think it's pretty much a pick 'em, with the fight almost always going the full twelve or fifteen. Frazier has speed, footwork and industry going for him, Vitali counters with a slight edge in power (I believe), a marginally better chin and the ability to box in reverse, which was an alient concept to Frazier.

Some seem to forget that Vitali at his peak was a formidable fighter. Just a shame he has little competition. Not taking anything away from Frazier who was exceptional, he would simply too small for Vitali. When Frazier gets inside, Vitali would lean on him, hold and spoil. He will keep it at a distance as much as possible, using the jab effectively. Frazier was not difficult to hit and hit him Vitali would and often. I see Vit taking the first 4 rounds when Frazier warms to the battle. A few close rounds would give Vit the edge and a decision win.

captain carrantuohil wrote:If we take Foreman at his best, though, JBW, I guess that we are looking almost exclusively at the Frazier and Norton fights, a fairly small sample. I think that we have to look at Young and Lyle as part of his prime, relatively poorly though he performed in those fights.

Let's look at Frazier and Norton in isolation, though. Norton was scared witless, I don't think that anyone would dispute that. To that extent, it's difficult to extrapolate too much from that fight. I'm as sure as I can be that Vitali at least wouldn't have been beaten before the first bell. As for Joe, he was always a slow starter, which was fatal for anyone against George, who duly caught Frazier cold. I can't help thinking that even if he had got warmed up, he was just all wrong for Foreman. That relentless chugging attack was made to measure for the bigger man, who never had to go looking for Frazier. Again, Vitali is a differently shaped beast, and I think that it would take George a good while longer for his punches to have the desired effect.

I think that it would have happened eventually, mind, but not without George shipping a few blows of his own en route.

I don't disagree with you on the Norton fight, Kenny's knees were always going to be wobbly whether he took a shot on the chin or not, although the way his 220lb body wasn sent flailing to the ground as though he were made of candy floss is still pretty amazing.

Now the Frazier demolish is, in my eyes, one of the standout performences in boxing history. Frazier wasn't that easy to tag, as he showed against Ali, and he had a pretty solid chin. Foreman used his aforementioned timing along with his horrific power to send Frazier all over the ring.

Vitali is a different shaped beast, but I'm not convinced he's a tougher fighter than Frazier. No disrespect to Vitali, but I feel it would be easier to discourage him than it would be to discourage Frazier, who'd be my pick for gutsiest fighter of all time.

Foreman may well take a few en route, but I think he'd take a lesser quantity and a lesser quality of shots from Vitali than he would return.

In what way do you define tough? Yes Vit quit when he injured his shoulder. But he proved his toughness against Lewis and every time he steps into the ring.

manos de piedra wrote:JBW, Im curious as to who it is you you think puts Vitalis record on pedastal? Certainly I dont think the majority of people do. Whenever I see all time great lists I seldom see Vitali featuring in the top ten. What I think the distinction is that there are alot of people who rate Vitali as a pretty good fighter that matches up well on an actual fight basis with the other top heavyweights. But on record alone I just dont see a great number of people that champion Vitalis as being exceptional. Im also curious as to what it is in Vitalis record or performances that leaves you so underwhelmed? Granted, his lack of elite victories might be reason to rate Foreman as beating him but the impression I get from you is that any sort of half decent heavyweight would beat him and he would be cannon fodder in most other eras.

Marcianos record scrutinised more because he is held in a higher position I think. If it becomes the norm for Vitali to get featured in top ten and top five rankings then I would imagine he would come under alot more scrutiny but really for the most part people havent settled on ranking him while he is still active. I also think with Marciano the fact he is so small and the fact heavyweights have become so big leads to a naturally querying of how he would actually do against heavyweights that outsize him dramatically - something he never had to face in his own era. Realistically Marciano is a small cruiserweight in todays terms.

It's more the presumption that he'd be a handful for any fighter in history that gets me. He was a handfull for Lewis, yes, as was Mercer. Other than that what has done to achieve that presumption of being able to compete in any era?

His competition leaves me underwhelmed. Simple. But no, I think it takes at least a very good fighter to beat him. Foreman happened to be an absolutely exceptional fighter.

Fair explanation on the Marciano point.

In some ways I would see Foreman as more vunerable to Vitali than Frazier. Frazier has a proven engine and can fight at a high pace for 15 rounds. Foreman Im pretty skeptical of if he doesnt manage to blast a fighter out. I think Frazier v Vitali would be a points match with probably not a great many rounds deciding the winner. I could see a back and forth fight that is decided by just a few rounds either side.

manos de piedra wrote:Also with Foreman, my basic point is that I dont think hes capable of keeping up a ferocious pace for 12 or 15 rounds. He seldom had to do it for more than 8 and against Ali he was punched out after 6 rounds. So IF Vitali if still in the fight after 6 he could easily be left facing an exhausted Foreman who had punched himself out. Iwould also expect Vitali to be able match Foreman for physicality meaning I dont think the opening rounds are just going to be one way traffic. Foreman would have to eat his own share of punches and deal with a 250lb guy who can front up to him and is not easily shoved around.

I agree he can't keep up a ferocious pace for that long, however I don't think Vitali would have enough left - having been on the recieving end of that pace - to turn things around.

Against Ali he was facing a fighter who used a slicker, subtler and more reflex based defense than I've ever seen from Vitali. Ali used a unique combination of ring savvy and toughness along with a nasty killer instinct. I don't see any of these attributes in Vitali. Maybe toughness but his relfexes and defense are nothing to write home about, and he's hardly a speedy finisher. Against Ali he was exhausted because he'd shot his bolt having landed only a few clean shots. I believe against Vitali most of those shots would've landed flush.

Foreman showed in his second career he had the chin to take shots and keep on coming.

Just seen the highlights of the Sanders/Vitali fight. Forgot what a war that that was. RIP Corrie.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:JBW, Im curious as to who it is you you think puts Vitalis record on pedastal? Certainly I dont think the majority of people do. Whenever I see all time great lists I seldom see Vitali featuring in the top ten. What I think the distinction is that there are alot of people who rate Vitali as a pretty good fighter that matches up well on an actual fight basis with the other top heavyweights. But on record alone I just dont see a great number of people that champion Vitalis as being exceptional. Im also curious as to what it is in Vitalis record or performances that leaves you so underwhelmed? Granted, his lack of elite victories might be reason to rate Foreman as beating him but the impression I get from you is that any sort of half decent heavyweight would beat him and he would be cannon fodder in most other eras.

Marcianos record scrutinised more because he is held in a higher position I think. If it becomes the norm for Vitali to get featured in top ten and top five rankings then I would imagine he would come under alot more scrutiny but really for the most part people havent settled on ranking him while he is still active. I also think with Marciano the fact he is so small and the fact heavyweights have become so big leads to a naturally querying of how he would actually do against heavyweights that outsize him dramatically - something he never had to face in his own era. Realistically Marciano is a small cruiserweight in todays terms.

It's more the presumption that he'd be a handful for any fighter in history that gets me. He was a handfull for Lewis, yes, as was Mercer. Other than that what has done to achieve that presumption of being able to compete in any era?

His competition leaves me underwhelmed. Simple. But no, I think it takes at least a very good fighter to beat him. Foreman happened to be an absolutely exceptional fighter.

Fair explanation on the Marciano point.

Well other than 70s, in which I feel Vitali would be at least competitve, I cant think of any other era where he would not be a top contender at heavyweight. The competition for alot of other top heavyweights was pretty underwhelming also. I see Vitali as being a handful for pretty much any heavyweight in history.