Vitali v Foreman

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Who wins? Foreman is ranked in most people's top 10 ATG heavyweight mainly off the back of his demolition of Frazier and Norton. Also winning the title back at age 45. A phenomenal puncher and a very intimidating fighter. But after watching many of his early fights, was he that good? Arguably Joe and Kenny were made for him.

But Vitali is an entirely different proposition. A good boxer with excellent skills coupled with a very good jab. Watching some of George's fights, he wings his punches in, in huge arcs. He pawed his jab and clubbed his opponents. Vitali would spear in a jab and keep out of Foreman's way. Plus he would be able to take some of George's punched when they did land. I can see Vitali winning a wide UD over 15 rounds with Vit weathering the early storm. I wouldn't write of a late KO either. Vitali is under-appreciated and perhaps Foreman over-rated.

Thoughts?

Now, if we could combine the best of Foreman circa 72-74 with the best of his second boxing incarnation, then we may well have the greatest heavyweight who ever lived. Unfortunately, we can't and it's not quite fair to do so for these purposes.

The first Foreman lacked the ring smarts, stamina, chin and all-round durability of the second. The second Foreman wasn't able to cut off the ring as well and didn't have the killer instinct and aura of doom that the first brought to proceedings. Pick your George, by all means, but we can't really amalgamate the two in any meaningful sense, I don't think.

Love the left hand Corrie landed on Vitali end of the 1st round...Stunned and rocked Vitali badly.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Now, if we could combine the best of Foreman circa 72-74 with the best of his second boxing incarnation, then we may well have the greatest heavyweight who ever lived. Unfortunately, we can't and it's not quite fair to do so for these purposes.

The first Foreman lacked the ring smarts, stamina, chin and all-round durability of the second. The second Foreman wasn't able to cut off the ring as well and didn't have the killer instinct and aura of doom that the first brought to proceedings. Pick your George, by all means, but we can't really amalgamate the two in any meaningful sense, I don't think.

Absolutely right. But a chin is a chin. You've got it or you don't. Nobody lacks one at 25 then grows it 40lbs and 20 years later.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Now, if we could combine the best of Foreman circa 72-74 with the best of his second boxing incarnation, then we may well have the greatest heavyweight who ever lived. Unfortunately, we can't and it's not quite fair to do so for these purposes.

The first Foreman lacked the ring smarts, stamina, chin and all-round durability of the second. The second Foreman wasn't able to cut off the ring as well and didn't have the killer instinct and aura of doom that the first brought to proceedings. Pick your George, by all means, but we can't really amalgamate the two in any meaningful sense, I don't think.

Foreman lacked the chin ,he only got ko'd once in a 81fight career so how did he a lack a chin.

That's true. However, I will observe that brutes like Morrison landed their bombs on old George with no long-lasting effect, while Lyle had him all over the place when George was at his physical peak. Perhaps his chin didn't improve, but he knew a lot more about what to do when he was tagged.

John Bloody Wayne wrote:

manos de piedra wrote:Also with Foreman, my basic point is that I dont think hes capable of keeping up a ferocious pace for 12 or 15 rounds. He seldom had to do it for more than 8 and against Ali he was punched out after 6 rounds. So IF Vitali if still in the fight after 6 he could easily be left facing an exhausted Foreman who had punched himself out. Iwould also expect Vitali to be able match Foreman for physicality meaning I dont think the opening rounds are just going to be one way traffic. Foreman would have to eat his own share of punches and deal with a 250lb guy who can front up to him and is not easily shoved around.

I agree he can't keep up a ferocious pace for that long, however I don't think Vitali would have enough left - having been on the recieving end of that pace - to turn things around.

Against Ali he was facing a fighter who used a slicker, subtler and more reflex based defense than I've ever seen from Vitali. Ali used a unique combination of ring savvy and toughness along with a nasty killer instinct. I don't see any of these attributes in Vitali. Maybe toughness but his relfexes and defense are nothing to write home about, and he's hardly a speedy finisher. Against Ali he was exhausted because he'd shot his bolt having landed only a few clean shots. I believe against Vitali most of those shots would've landed flush.

Foreman showed in his second career he had the chin to take shots and keep on coming.

Well I wouldnt use the Ali fight to describe how Vitali would fare, but just to show that Foreman could punch himself out. I dont neccessarily disagree that Vitali might crumble under the initial onslaught. But I see it as the percentage call, rather than a closer to a certainty. And I would still feel that Foreman of the two is the more vulnerable to gassing and worse equipped if the fight goes late. I would make Foreman favourite for the fight but I think Vitali is a very tough order for him that is capable of winning himself and likely to provide a stern test.

In Foremans second career I think he was alot more durable largely because he was bulkier, more relaxed and paced himself alot better. In his earlier career I think he was prone to punching himself out and once in that exhausted condition then a fighter becomes very vunerable even if they have a great chin.

Relatively speaking, Nico. I don't remember George going down at all in his second coming, so to speak, whereas Ali KO'd him, Lyle had him all over the place and Young sealed his win over George by decking him in the final round of their fight.

Please note that I said that George in his prime lacked the chin of the second George, not "had no chin". That's just a statistical observation. It is arguable that, apart from Lyle, George never met a harder one-punch hitter than Morrison. After 12 rounds, George seemed pretty much OK against Tommy, apart from being a bit out of puff.

It was being relaxed in the ring and also smarter that allowed him to take shots better. Holyfield had him all over the place and he's not a puncher of Lyle's caliber. Cooney couldn't really make a dent and he could punch if nothing else.

There's nothing I actually think is wrong about your opinion Manos, I'd just have the percentages stacked more in Foreman's favour. I don't think Vitali's some stiff in the right era, he's a very good fighter but as I said, Foreman at his best was exceptional.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Now, if we could combine the best of Foreman circa 72-74 with the best of his second boxing incarnation, then we may well have the greatest heavyweight who ever lived. Unfortunately, we can't and it's not quite fair to do so for these purposes.

The first Foreman lacked the ring smarts, stamina, chin and all-round durability of the second. The second Foreman wasn't able to cut off the ring as well and didn't have the killer instinct and aura of doom that the first brought to proceedings. Pick your George, by all means, but we can't really amalgamate the two in any meaningful sense, I don't think.

Serious? Lyle was not exactly a powder puff puncher and George got up and did the bizz. You may as well say Frazier had a dodgy chin also. Goerge had several flaws, but his chin was the least of them.

captain carrantuohil wrote:Relatively speaking, Nico. I don't remember George going down at all in his second coming, so to speak, whereas Ali KO'd him, Lyle had him all over the place and Young sealed his win over George by decking him in the final round of their fight.

Please note that I said that George in his prime lacked the chin of the second George, not "had no chin". That's just a statistical observation. It is arguable that, apart from Lyle, George never met a harder one-punch hitter than Morrison. After 12 rounds, George seemed pretty much OK against Tommy, apart from being a bit out of puff.

These are big guys you're talking about. Ali got decked by Cooper and others. Holmes got KO by Tyson and decked by Snipes and wobbled by Bonecrusher, 'Spoon, Bey and others. A big guy hits you with intent and you will wobble at least. Even Rocky got decked by an old light heavy.

I would have to favour VK in this one. I think he has the better boxing skills, particularly the jab, which while it may not deter Foreman on its own, it will certainly slow him down, and if the fight was to go 8 rounds+, it could naturally lead to swelling/cuts which could impair Foreman's vision etc.

I think Foreman could stagger VK, even knock him down, but I don't see him knocking him out. On the other hand, I think provided VK can surived the likely early onslaught, he could stop Foreman. I would say Foreman has an edge in power, while VK has the better footwork, boxing skill, chin (just) and stamina. Obviously he also has a height and reach advantage.
I would favour VK something in the order of 60/40. I wouldn't totally rule out Foreman landing a complete nuke on VK, but I just don't see VK being stopped.

NathanDB10 wrote:I would have to favour VK in this one. I think he has the better boxing skills, particularly the jab, which while it may not deter Foreman on its own, it will certainly slow him down, and if the fight was to go 8 rounds+, it could naturally lead to swelling/cuts which could impair Foreman's vision etc.

I think Foreman could stagger VK, even knock him down, but I don't see him knocking him out. On the other hand, I think provided VK can surived the likely early onslaught, he could stop Foreman. I would say Foreman has an edge in power, while VK has the better footwork, boxing skill, chin (just) and stamina. Obviously he also has a height and reach advantage.
I would favour VK something in the order of 60/40. I wouldn't totally rule out Foreman landing a complete nuke on VK, but I just don't see VK being stopped.

+1

No, no, az, like Nico, you misunderstand me. I don't mean that George the First was chinny, and I've obviously not expressed myself very well. Just that the second incarnation was better at taking shots, whether through experience, ringcraft, extra bulk or anything else. Cooney (admittedly shot) and Morrison punched not a lot less hard than Lyle and infinitely harder than Young, and yet the old man remained triumphantly upright against them.

I'm only comparing George with George, no-one else. For the record, I think he had a damn good chin overall, and I still make him 5 or so amongst all heavyweights, so I wouldn't want anyone to think that I was selling him short.

Vitali is champion in the worst ever heavyweight era ever IMO.thats not Vitali's fault but I fail to see how comparisions can be made with Foreman given the opposition Vitali has faced.Much is made of Vitali's chin but apart from Lewis I can't think of a decent fighter or ferocious puncher whose actually hit it unless someone wants to enlighten me.

captain carrantuohil wrote:No, no, az, like Nico, you misunderstand me. I don't mean that George the First was chinny, and I've obviously not expressed myself very well. Just that the second incarnation was better at taking shots, whether through experience, ringcraft, extra bulk or anything else. Cooney (admittedly shot) and Morrison punched not a lot less hard than Lyle and infinitely harder than Young, and yet the old man remained triumphantly upright against them.

I'm only comparing George with George, no-one else. For the record, I think he had a damn good chin overall, and I still make him 5 or so amongst all heavyweights, so I wouldn't want anyone to think that I was selling him short.

If you watch those fights, Cooney hardly landed his left. Tommy didn't plant his feet as he decided to box on the back foot. They hardly landed a big blow. Lyle planted his feet and let loose on George.

Nico the gman wrote:Vitali is champion in the worst ever heavyweight era ever IMO.thats not Vitali's fault but I fail to see how comparisions can be made with Foreman given the opposition Vitali has faced.Much is made of Vitali's chin but apart from Lewis I can't think of a decent fighter or ferocious puncher whose actually hit it unless someone wants to enlighten me.

Nope. That honour belongs to Rocky. He hardly fought and beat a single HW during his reign. At least Vitali fought and beat genuine HWs.

I think even an aging Joe Louis or Jersey Joe would put paid to this heavyweight division,Vitali has beaten genuine 3rd rate heavyweights.

Nico the gman wrote:I think even an aging Joe Louis or Jersey Joe would put paid to this heavyweight division,Vitali has beaten genuine 3rd rate heavyweights.

That's for another thread, but needless to say I disagree.

I do think a bit too much is made of Vitalis chin, it is far less proven than that of a Holyfield, Chuvalo or McCall so wouldn't be confident in saying he stands up to the best Foreman could throw. I must have fallen asleep for a few years if he's being labelled as a skillful boxer, he's a durable guy with decent fundamentals but when the only good fighter you face beats you it doesn't say much for your skillset.

I think he proved it in the Lewis and Sanders fight. Has he ever been decked at all? Serious question.

Time to wake up Ghosty.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I do think a bit too much is made of Vitalis chin, it is far less proven than that of a Holyfield, Chuvalo or McCall so wouldn't be confident in saying he stands up to the best Foreman could throw. I must have fallen asleep for a few years if he's being labelled as a skillful boxer, he's a durable guy with decent fundamentals but when the only good fighter you face beats you it doesn't say much for your skillset.

Totally agree a bit of realism at last.

Which version of Foreman are we talking about here? They were vastly different,in his first reign he was a mobile wrecking ball intent on getting the job done as quickly as possible. Ten years later he was prepared to take his time,using his effective jab to set his opponents up for a finishing right. I think the first version would stop Vitali in the first five rounds ,however in his second reign I think Vitali would win by a wide U.D.

Foreman on 1972-74. The best Foreman.

What about a matchup between George in both his forms?

ShahenshahG wrote:What about a matchup between George in both his forms?

George wins.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I must have fallen asleep for a few years if he's being labelled as a skillful boxer, he's a durable guy with decent fundamentals but when the only good fighter you face beats you it doesn't say much for your skillset.

Hardly a lack of skill which cost him that fight, was it? I'd question how any fighter lacking in skill can land as freely on Lewis as Vitali did that night, regardless of whether Lewis was at his best or not.

Vitali is skillful. Unless only the supreme virtuosoes are worthy of that compliment now. I'm actually amazed that anyone could suggest that a man could win world titles, never be decked in a forty-odd fight career, hardly lose more than a couple of rounds in any of those fights, win over eighty percent of them inside the distance and still be turning in solid performances the wrong side of forty without having a good skill set.

Can we be reasonable, please.

I always like a witty man, I wonder if theres one here

Still asking the question who are the quality heavyweights Vitali has beat good fighter in a very very poor heavyweight era.

88Chris05 wrote:

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I must have fallen asleep for a few years if he's being labelled as a skillful boxer, he's a durable guy with decent fundamentals but when the only good fighter you face beats you it doesn't say much for your skillset.

Hardly a lack of skill which cost him that fight, was it? I'd question how any fighter lacking in skill can land as freely on Lewis as Vitali did that night, regardless of whether Lewis was at his best or not.

Vitali is skillful. Unless only the supreme virtuosoes are worthy of that compliment now. I'm actually amazed that anyone could suggest that a man could win world titles, never be decked in a forty-odd fight career, hardly lose more than a couple of rounds in any of those fights, win over eighty percent of them inside the distance and still be turning in solid performances the wrong side of forty without having a good skill set.

Can we be reasonable, please.

Incredible. Its well documented that I am not a fan of either of K2. Yet to deny their skills is ridiculous. There is a stupid amount of nostalgia going on which re-writes history. A peak Foreman lost to a very average and forgettable Jimmy Young FFS getting decked in the process. And now some numpty is belittling a guy who lost to Lennox Lewis. Isn't Lewis a nailed on top 10 (in most eyes not mine) and the best HW of his generation. And now losing to him is used as a stick to beat him with. How stupid is that?

Nico the gman wrote:Still asking the question who are the quality heavyweights Vitali has beat good fighter in a very very poor heavyweight era.

Its not going to be fought on paper records or respective era's though. Nobody is arguing that Vitalis record is worse and the competition he has beat is inferior. It doesnt automatically mean he cant beat a better calibre of fighter though does it? The fact he hasnt (meaningfully) lost to and handled his inferior competition pretty comfortably makes it open to interpretation.

ShahenshahG wrote:I always like a witty man, I wonder if theres one here

Nico the gman wrote:Still asking the question who are the quality heavyweights Vitali has beat good fighter in a very very poor heavyweight era.

This is not a ATG ranking debate but a Head 2 Head fight.

While I agree that Foreman was more than just a crude slugger, I struggle to see how/why people favour him in a fight against VK. Surley most people would agree that at the very least VK is the suprior technician, even if only slightly. This allied to his physical characteristics (chin, reach, height, stamina) must make him the favourite in my opinion.

Foreman was a wrecking ball, with massive power, but as the rumble in the jungle shown, he could be out-thought and out-manouvered. I would suggest VK is the type of fighter and personality to do this. He would know he has to weather the early storm, and plan accordingly. This allied to his natural grit would make him odds on to win the fight. When you apply VK's normal boxing plan (i.e. wear down and stop late) it is essentially already the perfect plan to beat a bull like Foreman.

I don't see him as the superior technician in any way. Using the rumble as a stick to beat Foreman with is useless, we're talking about him losing to ALI not a fighter levels below that.

Young, on the other hand, WAS a superior technician to George, outboxed him and decked him, to boot, Ghosty. He also lacked Vitali's obvious physical gifts. As I say, George beats Vitali for me more often than not, but unless he lands the pay-off punch immediately, he's in for a pretty bruising experience.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I don't see him as the superior technician in any way. Using the rumble as a stick to beat Foreman with is useless, we're talking about him losing to ALI not a fighter levels below that.

Jimmy Young?

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I don't see him as the superior technician in any way. Using the rumble as a stick to beat Foreman with is useless, we're talking about him losing to ALI not a fighter levels below that.

I was referring to the fact that he could be out-thought in terms of the approach to the (or any) fight. He was so confident in his own ability and power, that in my opinion he rarely took into account other people's strenghts, and that against a thinking fighter like VK, that could be his undoing. See Jimmy Young (I know that may not be considered "peak" Foreman, but the principle still stands).

I think VK could adapt better than Foreman. He could (in theory at least) stand off and box him, he could slug with him etc etc.

I wasn't bringing Ali into the equation per se.

If the Young fight is not considered "peak" foreman, is the Douglas fight considered "peak" Tyson? Or are the rules blurred?

azania wrote:If the Young fight is not considered "peak" foreman, is the Douglas fight considered "peak" Tyson? Or are the rules blurred?

If we're doing that, I don't consider either to be peak. Ironically enough, both for mental reasons.

I was illustrating the point, again, that Foreman could be out-thought in the ring, and in doing so, be unable to adapt or change his approach. What would Foreman do if VK tried to stick and move? What would Foreman do if VK tried to out-slug him? He would do exactly the same thing IMO. No change.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

If this post is still going in the morning I'll look forward to adding to it.

Its interesting to note the opinions of ex fighters like Tyson, Lewis and Foreman himself on the Klitschkos also. They all rate them pretty highly. Foreman and Lewis maybe you have to take with a pinch of salt but Tyson is a keen student of boxing and believes the Klitschkos would be formidable opponents in any era.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:I do think a bit too much is made of Vitalis chin, it is far less proven than that of a Holyfield, Chuvalo or McCall so wouldn't be confident in saying he stands up to the best Foreman could throw. I must have fallen asleep for a few years if he's being labelled as a skillful boxer, he's a durable guy with decent fundamentals but when the only good fighter you face beats you it doesn't say much for your skillset.

Agree with you on the chin issue...A past it Lewis stopped Vitali in 6...Then you get the likes of Chris predicting Vitali goes the distance with the prime version.

Let's not forget Sanders had him badly rocked as well...His chin is good but not great like some on here like to make out.

Lewis threw everything at him but couldn't deck him.

The genius of PBF wrote:Agree with you on the chin issue...A past it Lewis stopped Vitali in 6....

On a cut. In a fight where Vitali had come in at just two weeks notice. Hardly a slight against his chin, is it?

Lewis was on the verge of knocking him out...The doctor saved Vitali from the aura of his chin.

He had more than one cut...Vitali was supposed to be fighting on the undercard so was in shape and ready.

A past it Lewis stops him in 6...yet you think he goes the distance with the prime version.

Foreman wouldn't need a plan B to finish Vitali off early, he's too open to being hit to last more than a couple of rounds, we're not talking about an Ali level tactician we're talking about a fighter who couldn't change tact against Lewis. He may be a smart man outside of the ring but his in ring intelligence is blown out of all proportion. A 47 year old version of Foreman was robbed against a recent Vitali opponent some 15 odd years prior ago.

The genius of PBF wrote:He had more than one cut...Vitali was supposed to be fighting on the undercard so was in shape and ready.

A past it Lewis stops him in 6...yet you think he goes the distance with the prime version.

On the undercard of a LEWIS fight. So Lewis was also in shape. Interesting that the crowd booed Lewis and cheered Vitali. They knew who was winning. I don't buy this theory spread by Lewis himself that he was going to KO Vitali. Naturally Vitali says the opposite. Who do you believe.Neither. I believe my eyes and saw a very competitive fight unfortunately stopped by a very nasty cut.

Imperial Ghosty wrote:Foreman wouldn't need a plan B to finish Vitali off early, he's too open to being hit to last more than a couple of rounds, we're not talking about an Ali level tactician we're talking about a fighter who couldn't change tact against Lewis. He may be a smart man outside of the ring but his in ring intelligence is blown out of all proportion. A 47 year old version of Foreman was robbed against a recent Vitali opponent some 15 odd years prior ago.

Yes and Foreman got gifted a decision against Schultz.

Well Lewis was not liked in America of course they were going to boo him...Me and many others think Vitali was going to get knocked out.

Just look at the 6th round...Vitali looked out on his feet with nothing left.

I wonder why Wladimir doesn't get mentioned in these fantasy fights...Very underrated.

azania wrote:I think he proved it in the Lewis and Sanders fight. Has he ever been decked at all? Serious question.

Time to wake up Ghosty.

No, he has never been decked amateur or pro as far as I know. There was a disputed claim that Pele Reid dropped him in kickboxing, but no evidence of it. The left hand he walked onto against Sanders would have dropped just about any other HW IMO. Big George in his second stint never got dropped because he never left himself open. He just stood in the middle of the ring with his chin down, he never walked onto anything because he barely moved, and never led with anything fancy that could get countered, he was like a human pill-box.