90' 00's fighters that would have pounded Wladimir

by **Seanusarrilius** Wed 24 Oct 2012, 1:45 pm

First topic message reminder :

Another HW defence this weekend for the King of the HW's

So here are some fighters that would have kebonked him

Mike Tyson: would have come inside with a bob and a weae and KO'd him hard
Evander Prime. Dirty enough to compete on inside, wear him down, late KO
Lennox Lewis. Far better skills. Would have been pensive at first but Lewis woulda KO'd him later
Prime Vitali. Just woulda ripped his heart out
Bowe, Prime Tua would have had a chance, too.

Anymore for anymore?

by TheMackemMawler Sun 28 Oct 2012, 6:26 pm

monty junior wrote:
TheMackemMawler wrote:I'd say Lewis punching power surpasses that of Wlad, especially his over hand right and uppercut.

I agree Wlad's footwork is better.

Lewis wins speed of punch, Wlad shades timing.

You kidding man? Wlad's speed of punch is amazing for a man his size. You can't really compare the over hand right and uppercut to Wlad's as he simply doesn't throw those punches, his left hook is vicious whereas Lewis didn't throw it as much so it's pointless to compare those to. Though Klitschko's had a lot more power.

Sorry, I wasn't comparing Lewis' overhand (or uppercut) to that of Wlad's? I was making the point that Lewis' overhand right contains more power than any punch that Wlad throws.

When it comes to hand speed, Wlad throws extremely heavy handed pitter-patter punches faster than Lewis.

Lewis throws single power punches with more speed and acceleration.

by Guest Sun 28 Oct 2012, 7:10 pm

monty junior wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:I base my opinions on what I see and from watching them both fight it is Lewis who appears to be the more destructive puncher. What happens in sparring isnt of any concern to me, when in a fight wlads apparently destructive power disappears.

It dissapears where? the guy has 51 KO's in 58 victories despite fighting pretty apprehensively, he also has the record (14) amount of stoppages over guys who haven't previously been stopped before. You keep saying about sparring but i gave you a clear example of Phil Jackson who fought both in a pro bout when Wlad actually threw power punches and he said he hit much harder.

Surely you're not going to take the opinion of a boxer that fought both over that of a somebody who posts on a boxing forum!

by TheMackemMawler Sun 28 Oct 2012, 7:22 pm

To be fair, I think Wlad probably spars heavy. In fights he deters people with his power. I think if he sparred light against a good fighter then the odds would stack up against him. Thus he spars hard.

Sparring, which is artificial, is not the place to judge raw power. People spar with varying intensity.

by monty junior Sun 28 Oct 2012, 7:27 pm

sohotnot wrote:
monty junior wrote:
Imperial Ghosty wrote:I base my opinions on what I see and from watching them both fight it is Lewis who appears to be the more destructive puncher. What happens in sparring isnt of any concern to me, when in a fight wlads apparently destructive power disappears.

It dissapears where? the guy has 51 KO's in 58 victories despite fighting pretty apprehensively, he also has the record (14) amount of stoppages over guys who haven't previously been stopped before. You keep saying about sparring but i gave you a clear example of Phil Jackson who fought both in a pro bout when Wlad actually threw power punches and he said he hit much harder.

Surely you're not going to take the opinion of a boxer that fought both over that of a somebody who posts on a boxing forum!

True mate don't know why i bother censored

by Guest Sun 28 Oct 2012, 7:45 pm

TheMackemMawler wrote:To be fair, I think Wlad probably spars heavy. In fights he deters people with his power. I think if he sparred light against a good fighter then the odds would stack up against him. Thus he spars hard.

How do you mean? I don't quite understand.

Sparring, which is artificial, is not the place to judge raw power. People spar with varying intensity.

Surely sparring with a guy that spars heavy would give an indication of a boxers strength & punching power? I know its different to an actual fight & you cant judge a fighters ability, but surely you get an idea of his power.

by TheMackemMawler Sun 28 Oct 2012, 10:44 pm

sohotnot wrote:
TheMackemMawler wrote:
Sparring, which is artificial, is not the place to judge raw power. People spar with varying intensity.

Surely sparring with a guy that spars heavy would give an indication of a boxers strength & punching power? I know its different to an actual fight & you cant judge a fighters ability, but surely you get an idea of his power.

I'll keep this simple...

# Tom spars with Dick and Harry

# Dick spars hard. Tom now knows Dick punches hard

# Harry spars light. Tom doesn't know how hard Harry punches

# Therefore Tom can't compare Dick and Harry's power.

by Imperial Ghosty Sun 28 Oct 2012, 10:56 pm

You put it better than I ever could Mackem.

by monty junior Sun 28 Oct 2012, 11:00 pm

I see your point but a guy who has fought both and their actual trainer who worked with both for year's and saw both their fight's first hand say without apprehension that one hit's harder than the other. Which is basically backed up by these sparring partners.

by Imperial Ghosty Sun 28 Oct 2012, 11:05 pm

I'll ask again but what do you expect Manny to say when he's training Wlad that in fact Lewis punches harder or is he going to say anything that helps the confidence of his fighter? Also with the testimony of boxers themselves you have to take it with a pinch of salt, Jorge Solis said that Gamboa punched harder than Pacquiao which in itself seems a silly statement.

by monty junior Sun 28 Oct 2012, 11:11 pm

Well then if he didn't punch as hard he simply wouldn't bring it up, Manny always brought it up by himself from the first time they started working together. Sure you can take things with a pinch of salt, some guys have their brains scrambled but when you have a fair chunk of evidence of guys saying the same things who have been in the ring with them then i'll take that over some hypothetical situation of Lewis not trying to punch hard in sparring.

by TheMackemMawler Sun 28 Oct 2012, 11:12 pm

TheMackemMawler wrote: To be fair, I think Wlad probably spars heavy. In fights he deters people with his power. I think if he sparred light against a good fighter then the odds would stack up against him. Thus he spars hard.

[color=black]How do you mean? I don't quite understand.

I can't see why this one needs explaining but.....

# One of Dick's strengths is his power.

# When Dick fights, he uses his power to scare his opponents into their shell, this gives him the advantage.

# If Dick doesn't use his power when sparring he loses one of his main strengths.

# For that reason, Dick spars heavy.

# If Dick spars light he loses one of his strengths. This is to Dicks disadvantage.

# When Dick is disadvantaged, say against Tom (who is good fighter), then Tom gains the advantage.

# So what Dick does, to maintain the upper hand, is too spar heavy handed.

# Tom soaks up the punishment

Conversely,

# Harry doesn't rely on power (even though he has it in super human quantities).

# Harry likes to rely on skill to maintain the upper hand when fighting, nothing more

# Whenever Tom spars with Harry he feels as though Harry is not a big puncher

# Tom can't understand how Harry knocks people out during fights

# I guess Tom doesn't realise Harry is sparring light.

by **88Chris05** Sun 28 Oct 2012, 11:15 pm

I don't think Steward would have felt any automatic obligation to overstate Wladimir's abilities in comparison to Lewis' just because he was his trainer at the time, to be honest. It seems that some people are stopping only just short of saying that we should disregard the opinions of trainers altogether as they're obviously making stuff up, which seems a bit odd to me. Surely we should just be taking things at face value to at least some degree?

Roach, for example, was asked if he felt Pacquiao could have ever beaten Duran. He replied with a flat out 'no'. Keeping in mind, also, that this was when Pacquiao was riding the crest of his career wave back in 2009. No automatic need to overplay his current fighter's abilities there. Likewise, when Mickey Duff was working with Honeyghan in the mid eighties when Honeyghan was the world's best 147 lb fighter, he responded sternly when asked if Honeyghan was the best fighter he'd worked with that he most definitely wasn't, and that he couldn't challenge Coteh for that honour.

I don't see why we should automatically assume that Steward was simply peeing up Wladimir's back when he said it. We can disagree, of course, but that's a different thing.

by Guest Sun 28 Oct 2012, 11:22 pm

TheMackemMawler wrote:
TheMackemMawler wrote: To be fair, I think Wlad probably spars heavy. In fights he deters people with his power. I think if he sparred light against a good fighter then the odds would stack up against him. Thus he spars hard.

[color=black]How do you mean? I don't quite understand.

I can't see why this one needs explaining but.....

# One of Dick's strengths is his power.

# When Dick fights, he uses his power to scare his opponents into their shell, this gives him the advantage.

# If Dick doesn't use his power when sparring he loses one of his main strengths.

# For that reason, Dick spars heavy.

# If Dick spars light he loses one of his strengths. This is to Dicks disadvantage.

# When Dick is disadvantaged, say against Tom (who is good fighter), then Tom gains the advantage.

# So what Dick does, to maintain the upper hand, is too spar heavy handed.

# Tom soaks up the punishment

Conversely,

# Harry doesn't rely on power (even though he has it in super human quantities).

# Harry likes to rely on skill to maintain the upper hand when fighting, nothing more

# Whenever Tom spars with Harry he feels as though Harry is not a big puncher

# Tom can't understand how Harry knocks people out during fights

# I guess Tom doesn't realise Harry is sparring light.

Thanks for your explanations I understand both you point & use of words, it was the 'odds would stack up against him' that confused me before.

Sometimes what we write is very clear to us but not always to those that are reading it.

by TheMackemMawler Sun 28 Oct 2012, 11:22 pm

Wlad may well punch harder than Lewis, I don't think so.

# Trainers are loyal to their current boxers.

# Trainers instill confidence in their boxers.

# Trainers compliment their boxers.

# Sparring is artificial

# People spar at different intensities

# Super-heavyweight monsters are not going to hit the pads of a 60-70 year old man at full force.

# You shouldn't believe what people say without first thinking about their motivations and/or the facts.

Good luck with this one Ghosty, I'm out.

by TheMackemMawler Sun 28 Oct 2012, 11:26 pm

sohotnot wrote: Thanks for your explanations I understand both you point & use of words, it was the 'odds would stack up against him' that confused me before (No probs mate)

Sometimes what we write is very clear to us but not always to those that are reading it (too true)

by azania Mon 29 Oct 2012, 12:15 am

hogey wrote:Lewis, Holyfied, Tyson, Bowe, Vitali, Ruddock, ibeabuchi would all ruin Wlad.
I would also give Morrison, Mercer, Tucker, Cooper a great chance of catching him and putting him away.
Just a look at the 3 people who have destroyed him in the past tell you anyone half decent would have a chance, unfortunately theres really no one around at the moment who is even half decent.

I'd give Bowe, Ike and many others a good chance of starching Lewis also. Just look at the two people who creamed him.Once was when he was at his absolute peak. Good as Lewis was, he has a Khanesque chin.

by JabMachineMK2 Mon 29 Oct 2012, 1:51 am

azania wrote:

I'd give Bowe, Ike and many others a good chance of starching Lewis also. Just look at the two people who creamed him.Once was when he was at his absolute peak. Good as Lewis was, he has a Khanesque chin.

Now now, lets not blow this out of proportion. A Change in wind could knock Khan out.

Lewis still needed a good dig to knock him off his feet.

by **superflyweight** Mon 29 Oct 2012, 9:12 am

I'd give Bowe, Ike and many others a good chance of starching Lewis also.

Given that you've named a couple of heavyweights that had more than a half decent dig about them, they'd have a good chance of "starching" all but a few freakishly strong chinned fighters if they caught them right, not just Lewis. I guess the point is whether or not Wlad, as well as other fighters, has the necessary skills to avoid being hit clean.

by coxy0001 Mon 29 Oct 2012, 9:17 am

azania wrote:
hogey wrote:Lewis, Holyfied, Tyson, Bowe, Vitali, Ruddock, ibeabuchi would all ruin Wlad.
I would also give Morrison, Mercer, Tucker, Cooper a great chance of catching him and putting him away.
Just a look at the 3 people who have destroyed him in the past tell you anyone half decent would have a chance, unfortunately theres really no one around at the moment who is even half decent.

I'd give Bowe, Ike and many others a good chance of starching Lewis also. Just look at the two people who creamed him.Once was when he was at his absolute peak. Good as Lewis was, he has a Khanesque chin.

That's harsh on Lewis. He got caught by two absolute humdingers of punches that would've laid many more supposedly iron jawed fighters out.

Khan got dropped by powder punching blown up super feathers. Lewis has been in there and taken massive shots off the likes of Vitali K and hasn't kissed the canvas anywhere near as many times as Khan (memory is slack this morning, but did he ever go down apart from those 2 shots?).

Didn't Khan get dropped by a career SFW who was also a school teacher who couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag?

by azania Mon 29 Oct 2012, 9:34 am

He got decked against Akinwande, wobbled by Holy who is no big puncher. I doubt Wlad at his prime would have lost to Rahman of McCall. He is too much of a pro to come in like Lewis and too skilled in the noble arts to allow a bum to KO him.

Yep, Khan is chinny. SO is Lewis. Khan and Wlad are true professionals. Lewis wasn't.

by coxy0001 Mon 29 Oct 2012, 9:51 am

azania wrote:He got decked against Akinwande, wobbled by Holy who is no big puncher. I doubt Wlad at his prime would have lost to Rahman of McCall. He is too much of a pro to come in like Lewis and too skilled in the noble arts to allow a bum to KO him.

Yep, Khan is chinny. SO is Lewis. Khan and Wlad are true professionals. Lewis wasn't.

Holy dropping someone like Bowe tends to go against your thinking. Not a concussive puncher like George Foreman, but could dig. More so than you give him credit for.

And Akinwande wasn't rulde a knockdown, he basically pushed him down and stop trying to bend facts Az.

Khan looked has been gobbing off and looked beyond Peterson AND Garcia and lost both fights. There's a big case for saying he took his eyes off the game and wasn't fully there in either fight. Should've spent more time preparing for those 2 guys rather than keep saying how's it's him vs FMJ next fight etc.

Lewis wasn't dropped by powder punching hitters. Khan was dropped - numerous times. You seem unable to grasp what 'chinny' is defined as and I haven't got the time to sit here explaining it to you. Lewis down twice from 2 monster punches against 2 big big hitters - Khan down god knows how many times and against powder puff punching pillow throwers. End of.

by JabMachineMK2 Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:12 am

Az is now telling us that Lewis, the last undisputed Heavyweight Champion, isn't a true professional. Not only that, you mention Khan in the same sentence.

Good god, you really do sink low to get a bite sometimes.

by TheMackemMawler Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:30 am

One of Lewis' main flaws was he often fought to the level of his opponent.

When he didn't take his challenger's seriously he'd get caught with punches he had no right to be caught with.

I feel this, rather than his chin, was his main weakness. I'm not saying he was Iron Chinned or Glass Jawed. In reality, he was somewhere in between and it was his lapses of concentration that cost him.

I'm not making excuses for Lewis, because, evidently, poor concentration is as detrimental to a fighter as it is to have a bad chin.

With Wlad, it was his inability to pace a fight/lack of conditioning that had the detrimental effect on his chin.

Wlad's chin is Grossly underrated.

Like Lewis he is not cast iron, but to say he is glass jawed is beyond ridiculous.

by monty junior Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:42 am

Completely agree on both points Mackem

by JabMachineMK2 Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:43 am

He's a heavyweight boxer - generally if most heavyweights have a free shot, they will knock you down - Rahman got his million dollar punch, and McCall cracked him with a humdinger that he left himself open to. Lewis has been hit by some titanic shots and stayed up so to say he's chinny on the same level as Khan is utter bull.

Need to stop biting....

by Boxtthis Mon 29 Oct 2012, 2:15 pm

Lennox Lewis wasn't professional..........nice one.

by azania Mon 29 Oct 2012, 2:20 pm

A true pro doesn't come into a world championship fight by training in his spare time whilst putting making a movie as his priority. That is amateurish. Boxing was his main job. Making Oceans 11 should have been in his spare time. If anyone can fault that then they are simply looking for an argument for no good reason.

Khan for all his chin issues (like Lewis) trains like a true pro. Doesn't cut corners and fully prepares for a fight (unlike Lewis).

by azania Mon 29 Oct 2012, 2:22 pm

coxy0001 wrote:
azania wrote:He got decked against Akinwande, wobbled by Holy who is no big puncher. I doubt Wlad at his prime would have lost to Rahman of McCall. He is too much of a pro to come in like Lewis and too skilled in the noble arts to allow a bum to KO him.

Yep, Khan is chinny. SO is Lewis. Khan and Wlad are true professionals. Lewis wasn't.

Holy dropping someone like Bowe tends to go against your thinking. Not a concussive puncher like George Foreman, but could dig. More so than you give him credit for.

And Akinwande wasn't rulde a knockdown, he basically pushed him down and stop trying to bend facts Az.

Khan looked has been gobbing off and looked beyond Peterson AND Garcia and lost both fights. There's a big case for saying he took his eyes off the game and wasn't fully there in either fight. Should've spent more time preparing for those 2 guys rather than keep saying how's it's him vs FMJ next fight etc.

Lewis wasn't dropped by powder punching hitters. Khan was dropped - numerous times. You seem unable to grasp what 'chinny' is defined as and I haven't got the time to sit here explaining it to you. Lewis down twice from 2 monster punches against 2 big big hitters - Khan down god knows how many times and against powder puff punching pillow throwers. End of.

Watch it again. It was a KD. The ref called it a slip and was wrong.

They weren't monster punches. Just good punches which stronger HW would have taken.

by coxy0001 Mon 29 Oct 2012, 3:08 pm

azania wrote:A true pro doesn't come into a world championship fight by training in his spare time whilst putting making a movie as his priority. That is amateurish. Boxing was his main job. Making Oceans 11 should have been in his spare time. If anyone can fault that then they are simply looking for an argument for no good reason.

Khan for all his chin issues (like Lewis) trains like a true pro. Doesn't cut corners and fully prepares for a fight (unlike Lewis).

Lets give it 10 years and see where Khan ranks on the ATG scale shall we?

Lewis could be forgiven for lapses and then putting things right, mainly by knocking Rahmans head off. Khan did the same and rebounded in a blaze of glory from the decision he dropped against LP when facing Garcia.... No wait, the "true pro" didn't learn from his lesson and decided to trade and got KTFO.

You're saying one is a true pro, but the other is one of the ATG heavies (and before you jump on that, most people will have him in at least their top 15 and possibly top 10... and that's in with some pretty tasty copany)... Bit weird that admission Az.

by azania Mon 29 Oct 2012, 4:12 pm

coxy0001 wrote:
azania wrote:A true pro doesn't come into a world championship fight by training in his spare time whilst putting making a movie as his priority. That is amateurish. Boxing was his main job. Making Oceans 11 should have been in his spare time. If anyone can fault that then they are simply looking for an argument for no good reason.

Khan for all his chin issues (like Lewis) trains like a true pro. Doesn't cut corners and fully prepares for a fight (unlike Lewis).

Lets give it 10 years and see where Khan ranks on the ATG scale shall we?

Lewis could be forgiven for lapses and then putting things right, mainly by knocking Rahmans head off. Khan did the same and rebounded in a blaze of glory from the decision he dropped against LP when facing Garcia.... No wait, the "true pro" didn't learn from his lesson and decided to trade and got KTFO.

You're saying one is a true pro, but the other is one of the ATG heavies (and before you jump on that, most people will have him in at least their top 15 and possibly top 10... and that's in with some pretty tasty copany)... Bit weird that admission Az.

Khan wont be ranked in the top 100 (being kind there) in whatever weight he ends up at. But that's a moot point. The fact is that he trains as a pro should and always enters the ring 100% ready. Has Lewis always done that? That's why only Brits rate Lewis in the top 10 ATG. No-one else does.

A top 10 HW doesn't get stretched twice by average fighters and once whilst at his absolute best.

But anyway, has Lewis always entered the ring in peak condition? Simple question fr you to answer coxy. I realise I have to ask you very simple questions to get a straight answer.

by **superflyweight** Mon 29 Oct 2012, 4:53 pm

But anyway, has Lewis always entered the ring in peak condition?

He'd be in pretty good company if he hasn't, Az.

Are you calling Duran, Sugar Ray Robinson and Ali (known to clown his way through training camps against certain opponents), as well as many other fighters, unprofessional?

Or did you use a sweeping statement to sum up his career on the basis of one (or two) fights?

by TopHat24/7 Mon 29 Oct 2012, 5:42 pm

azania wrote:
coxy0001 wrote:
azania wrote:A true pro doesn't come into a world championship fight by training in his spare time whilst putting making a movie as his priority. That is amateurish. Boxing was his main job. Making Oceans 11 should have been in his spare time. If anyone can fault that then they are simply looking for an argument for no good reason.

Khan for all his chin issues (like Lewis) trains like a true pro. Doesn't cut corners and fully prepares for a fight (unlike Lewis).

Lets give it 10 years and see where Khan ranks on the ATG scale shall we?

Lewis could be forgiven for lapses and then putting things right, mainly by knocking Rahmans head off. Khan did the same and rebounded in a blaze of glory from the decision he dropped against LP when facing Garcia.... No wait, the "true pro" didn't learn from his lesson and decided to trade and got KTFO.

You're saying one is a true pro, but the other is one of the ATG heavies (and before you jump on that, most people will have him in at least their top 15 and possibly top 10... and that's in with some pretty tasty copany)... Bit weird that admission Az.

Khan wont be ranked in the top 100 (being kind there) in whatever weight he ends up at. But that's a moot point.

Yep, because we're all MASSIVE racists determined to undervalue anything and everything about poor Khan....

by azania Mon 29 Oct 2012, 9:00 pm

Good grief tophat. You sometimes come out with some gems to try and goad me. But this is a seriously poor attempt.

Must try harder. Now run along and think of some new ones. There's a good boy.

by Gordy Mon 29 Oct 2012, 9:22 pm

The nineties was a much stronger period of heavyweights than now. This is the worst era of heavyweights in history. Nearly all of the good heavyweights from the nineties would have no trouble being world champion against this competition. In the nineties there were great heavyweights like Lewis and Tyson but you also had fighters like Holyfield and Foreman when he made his comeback plus good fighters like McCall, Bruno, Golota, Moorer and even Bowe who would beat the heavyweights around today. The standard was far higher back then and has been in decline since Lewis retired.

by coxy0001 Mon 29 Oct 2012, 9:41 pm

azania wrote:
coxy0001 wrote:
azania wrote:A true pro doesn't come into a world championship fight by training in his spare time whilst putting making a movie as his priority. That is amateurish. Boxing was his main job. Making Oceans 11 should have been in his spare time. If anyone can fault that then they are simply looking for an argument for no good reason.

Khan for all his chin issues (like Lewis) trains like a true pro. Doesn't cut corners and fully prepares for a fight (unlike Lewis).

Lets give it 10 years and see where Khan ranks on the ATG scale shall we?

Lewis could be forgiven for lapses and then putting things right, mainly by knocking Rahmans head off. Khan did the same and rebounded in a blaze of glory from the decision he dropped against LP when facing Garcia.... No wait, the "true pro" didn't learn from his lesson and decided to trade and got KTFO.

You're saying one is a true pro, but the other is one of the ATG heavies (and before you jump on that, most people will have him in at least their top 15 and possibly top 10... and that's in with some pretty tasty copany)... Bit weird that admission Az.

Khan wont be ranked in the top 100 (being kind there) in whatever weight he ends up at. But that's a moot point. The fact is that he trains as a pro should and always enters the ring 100% ready. Has Lewis always done that? That's why only Brits rate Lewis in the top 10 ATG. No-one else does.

A top 10 HW doesn't get stretched twice by average fighters and once whilst at his absolute best.

But anyway, has Lewis always entered the ring in peak condition? Simple question fr you to answer coxy. I realise I have to ask you very simple questions to get a straight answer.

Yup, Lewis came in undercooked a few times in his career. But as Superfly says - you going to say the likes of Ali, Bowe etc and co are all poor pros as they had a few fights when they weren't exactly in tip top shape both physically and mentally?

Khan is actually a pretty poor pro to be honest. He gobs off but has little to back it up with, claiming he's gonna be taking on the likes of Pac/FMJ etc when all he was in truth was an alphabet belt holder was both offensive to his upcoming opponents (both LP and Garcia) and showed a slightly deluded self appraisal of where he was at in the grander schemes of being a marquee name.

Lewis may have 2 blips and then put them right. Fact is you can say "oh but what a poor pro" as much as you want - End of Lewis has the CV that craps all over Khan's. Not bad for a poor pro eh. Guess we should slate Ali for how he spent more time not focusing on guys and just fooling around in camp yeah?

by coxy0001 Mon 29 Oct 2012, 9:42 pm

And lets just leave Az to it lads, guy is a bit (and the rest) of a clown.

First we have Wlad > Marciano and now this. Just an attention seeker, is almost as bad as Truss who at least knows his stuff.

by Rowley Mon 29 Oct 2012, 9:50 pm

Il Gialloblu wrote:
Gordy wrote:
88Chris05 wrote:I don't think Calzaghe could make a dent in to any of the world-ranked Heavyweights, to be honest. I won't even go in to the Klitschkos, as any sensible observer would surely agree that he'd do well to last two or three rounds with either, but seriously, do people really think Calzaghe could compete with Haye? Price? Povetkin? Fury? Mitchell? Helenius? I have my doubts to say the least.

Without wishing to sounds dismissive of Calzaghe, he simply wasn't as good as Jones. No shame at all in that - very few in history have been.

Ruiz was a good style match up for Roy in any case, whereas Calzaghe's style doesn't lend itself anywhere near as well to going up against the 220 lb + men. Calzaghe may have had some success against the blown up Adameks or this world, but that's it.

I have pointed out to you before your mistake with Jones. He was massively overrated and not a patch on Calzaghe. Since when does getting outclassed by Calzaghe make Jones better than him?? You are way off if you think Calzaghe would not last 3 rounds with a heavyweight. Calzaghe was never knocked out and had a great chin. He was also lightning fast. Far to fast for the current slow and useless heavyweights that are around now. His only weakness would be his power but his speed and ability would more than make up for that. Against top heavyweights like Lewis or Tyson then yes, you would be right but please dont say the ones around now are even in the same planet as those guys!

Gordy, I had a look at some of your early threads on here. The rhetoric is very familiar but you did admit, twice, to not really following the sport.

Gordy wrote:Hi all,

First post here. To start just want to say Im not a big boxing follower so apologies in advance if this question is silly. My question is basically is David Haye the worst ever heavyeight champion?

https://www.606v2.com/t18186-quick-question

Gordy wrote:Hi all,

Is it just me or are British fighters getting completely overhyped these days by Sky Sports and the like? I only follow boxing irregularly but saw the repeat of yet another British fighter - Carl Froch - getting whipped by his American counterpart.

https://www.606v2.com/t20630-british-fighters-hype-on-sky

I'd just like to know how you became such an authority on all things boxing in under a year. It's a serious question. I know very little about boxing myself and just wanted some tips on how to quickly elevate myself to a level where I can spar with 88Chris on here.

Please don't disappoint me Gordy. I couldn't take it if you were just a hype job.

by **88Chris05** Mon 29 Oct 2012, 9:56 pm

coxy0001 wrote:Khan is actually a pretty poor pro to be honest. He gobs off but has little to back it up with, claiming he's gonna be taking on the likes of Pac/FMJ etc when all he was in truth was an alphabet belt holder was both offensive to his upcoming opponents (both LP and Garcia) and showed a slightly deluded self appraisal of where he was at in the grander schemes of being a marquee name.

Ah, by 'gobs off', are you referring to the fact that Khan had the sheer nerve and temerity to believe in himself and want to fight the best his weight divisions could offer, Coxy? When there was talk of a Khan-Mayweather fight this time last year (and it wasn't only Khan who was at it, either), Khan had every right to try and put himself in the window for such a fight. Did Ortiz have a better claim when he signed to fight Floyd? Clottey when he took on Pacquiao?

Moreover, it bugs the bleedin' Christ out of me that Khan's naysayers continue to leave out the fact that his so-called 'gobbing off' usually comes as a result of being asked a direct question. He has every right to feel hard done by regarding the Peterson loss; even with the two points being taken off, there's just no way Peterson did enough to win that fight outright surely, with a draw being the most he deserved, and he's fully acknowledged his shortcomings in the Garcia fight and vowed to work as hard as he can to put them right, just as he did after the Prescott disaster.

You can certainly throw valid criticisms at Khan's ring IQ or his personal choices away from boxing, but not his professionalism. The bloke is a fantastic professional, and this is coming from someone who has never classed himself as a major fan of his.

by manos de piedra Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:02 pm

hogey wrote:Lewis, Holyfied, Tyson, Bowe, Vitali, Ruddock, ibeabuchi would all ruin Wlad.
I would also give Morrison, Mercer, Tucker, Cooper a great chance of catching him and putting him away.
Just a look at the 3 people who have destroyed him in the past tell you anyone half decent would have a chance, unfortunately theres really no one around at the moment who is even half decent.

Bert Cooper? Probably quicker to go through the heavyweights that dont have a chance of beating Wlad if Cooper makes the list.

by azania Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:12 pm

coxy0001 wrote:
azania wrote:
coxy0001 wrote:
azania wrote:A true pro doesn't come into a world championship fight by training in his spare time whilst putting making a movie as his priority. That is amateurish. Boxing was his main job. Making Oceans 11 should have been in his spare time. If anyone can fault that then they are simply looking for an argument for no good reason.

Khan for all his chin issues (like Lewis) trains like a true pro. Doesn't cut corners and fully prepares for a fight (unlike Lewis).

Lets give it 10 years and see where Khan ranks on the ATG scale shall we?

Lewis could be forgiven for lapses and then putting things right, mainly by knocking Rahmans head off. Khan did the same and rebounded in a blaze of glory from the decision he dropped against LP when facing Garcia.... No wait, the "true pro" didn't learn from his lesson and decided to trade and got KTFO.

You're saying one is a true pro, but the other is one of the ATG heavies (and before you jump on that, most people will have him in at least their top 15 and possibly top 10... and that's in with some pretty tasty copany)... Bit weird that admission Az.

Khan wont be ranked in the top 100 (being kind there) in whatever weight he ends up at. But that's a moot point. The fact is that he trains as a pro should and always enters the ring 100% ready. Has Lewis always done that? That's why only Brits rate Lewis in the top 10 ATG. No-one else does.

A top 10 HW doesn't get stretched twice by average fighters and once whilst at his absolute best.

But anyway, has Lewis always entered the ring in peak condition? Simple question fr you to answer coxy. I realise I have to ask you very simple questions to get a straight answer.

Yup, Lewis came in undercooked a few times in his career. But as Superfly says - you going to say the likes of Ali, Bowe etc and co are all poor pros as they had a few fights when they weren't exactly in tip top shape both physically and mentally?

Khan is actually a pretty poor pro to be honest. He gobs off but has little to back it up with, claiming he's gonna be taking on the likes of Pac/FMJ etc when all he was in truth was an alphabet belt holder was both offensive to his upcoming opponents (both LP and Garcia) and showed a slightly deluded self appraisal of where he was at in the grander schemes of being a marquee name.

Lewis may have 2 blips and then put them right. Fact is you can say "oh but what a poor pro" as much as you want - End of Lewis has the CV that craps all over Khan's. Not bad for a poor pro eh. Guess we should slate Ali for how he spent more time not focusing on guys and just fooling around in camp yeah?

Khan is a top pro but not the best fighter. You mentioned other boxers. They didn't get starched when they came in under-prepared.

Lewis is a better boxer than Khan. I don't know what you are trying to prove by running down Khan. The point is, which seems to escape you, is that Khan comes into a fight in his best physical shape he could possibly be in. es he loses. He will lose some more in future. But you cannot doubt his work ethic and professionalism. Lewis on the other hand comes in under-cooked and gets starched. That he comes in unprepared is testimony to an unprofessional attitude.

Bowe was never a consumate pro. A good pro will not have a fridge in his bloomin bedroom and be forced to train.Ali cut corners sometimes yet he won. A big difference. You claim Lewis is an ATG top 10 (barf) . Top 10 ATGs do not get starched in the same manner and especially when at their absolute peak.

by azania Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:17 pm

coxy0001 wrote:And lets just leave Az to it lads, guy is a bit (and the rest) of a clown.

First we have Wlad > Marciano and now this. Just an attention seeker, is almost as bad as Truss who at least knows his stuff.

Go forth and multiply little man. o way on this green earth does Rocky beat Wlad and no way should Rocky be ranked ahead of Wlad. Based on achievement, longevity, skill, talent, ability, ring IQ, everything you can think of. Wlad is miles better than Rocky. Roy Jones would beat Rocky with relative ease also. Now this is not about Rocky, but go ahead and rant away mummy's boy.

by coxy0001 Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:21 pm

Chris, I can point to exhibit A his Twitter account with regards to said gobbing off.

And the guys you mentioned didn't get the fights with FMJ/Pac because of their mouth, was a combination of putting in a big performance against a highly rated opponent on mainstream PPV (Ortiz) or simply being the only WW with some slightly (I use that word loosely) worthy ranking in the Top Rank Welterweight division. But Ortiz beating Berto had far, far more weight in helping jump the pecking order than Khan's ever had. Sadly a shot Judah and Euro level McCloskey doesn't quite carry the same weight as someone who was rated (from memory) #3 in the WW rankings, does it?

by monty junior Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:24 pm

manos de piedra wrote:
hogey wrote:Lewis, Holyfied, Tyson, Bowe, Vitali, Ruddock, ibeabuchi would all ruin Wlad.
I would also give Morrison, Mercer, Tucker, Cooper a great chance of catching him and putting him away.
Just a look at the 3 people who have destroyed him in the past tell you anyone half decent would have a chance, unfortunately theres really no one around at the moment who is even half decent.

Bert Cooper? Probably quicker to go through the heavyweights that dont have a chance of beating Wlad if Cooper makes the list.

Bizarre, Cooper was a well known journeymen who could dig but only if you stood in front of him. If you boxed him he had no chance at all, also he was ko'd like 15 times. Erm

by azania Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:27 pm

mummy's boy wrote:Chris, I can point to exhibit A his Twitter account with regards to said gobbing off.

And the guys you mentioned didn't get the fights with FMJ/Pac because of their mouth, was a combination of putting in a big performance against a highly rated opponent on mainstream PPV (Ortiz) or simply being the only WW with some slightly (I use that word loosely) worthy ranking in the Top Rank Welterweight division. But Ortiz beating Berto had far, far more weight in helping jump the pecking order than Khan's ever had. Sadly a shot Judah and Euro level McCloskey doesn't quite carry the same weight as someone who was rated (from memory) #3 in the WW rankings, does it?

I don't think you understand the term "professionalism".

by coxy0001 Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:28 pm

azania wrote:
coxy0001 wrote:And lets just leave Az to it lads, guy is a bit (and the rest) of a clown.

First we have Wlad > Marciano and now this. Just an attention seeker, is almost as bad as Truss who at least knows his stuff.

Go forth and multiply little man. o way on this green earth does Rocky beat Wlad and no way should Rocky be ranked ahead of Wlad. Based on achievement, longevity, skill, talent, ability, ring IQ, everything you can think of. Wlad is miles better than Rocky. Roy Jones would beat Rocky with relative ease also. Now this is not about Rocky, but go ahead and rant away mummy's boy.

Did I say Rocky beats Wlad? Are you that much of a complete idiot to assume that?

Achievement: Rocky has multiple HoFs on his CV, not of all which hold huge value but there are some big notable wins. Wlad has zero.

Longevity: Erm, undefeated anyone?

Skill: Erm, must've been that poorer fighter that a much more skilled Moore/Charles/Walcott found an easy way to win.

Talent: One went undefeated. One got spanked and had to be taught how to box in a stupidly negative style. Talent is natural.

Agility: Cripes, should probably slate Chavez for being a pretty cumbersome fighter compared to someone like Whitaker then.

Ring IQ: One went undefeated. One got embarrassed 3 times over and has sat on his arse more times than I can remember.

Just stay quiet little man.

by **88Chris05** Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:30 pm

coxy0001 wrote:Chris, I can point to exhibit A his Twitter account with regards to said gobbing off.

And the guys you mentioned didn't get the fights with FMJ/Pac because of their mouth, was a combination of putting in a big performance against a highly rated opponent on mainstream PPV (Ortiz) or simply being the only WW with some slightly (I use that word loosely) worthy ranking in the Top Rank Welterweight division. But Ortiz beating Berto had far, far more weight in helping jump the pecking order than Khan's ever had. Sadly a shot Judah and Euro level McCloskey doesn't quite carry the same weight as someone who was rated (from memory) #3 in the WW rankings, does it?

Point out his Twitter account all you like, and I (and many others) will happily point you towards a boat load of other fights who have done the same but, for whatever reason, won't be subjected to the same constant hostility and sarcasm you direct towards Khan each and every chance you get.

Khan wouldn't have been getting a shot simply due to his mouth either, which is the point I'm trying to get across. And yes, I'd happily take Khan's wins so far in his career over the ones which Ortiz has had. Khan had unified two belts at 140 lb - looking damn good in doing so - and had done everything possible to make the Bradley fight happen.

But that's all by the by. The bottom line is, that in 2011 before his recent setbacks, Khan was just as worthy (if not more) an opponent for the Mayweathers and Pacquiaos of this world than the likes of Ortiz, Clottey, Margarito etc were, and you damn well know this, I'm sure. Whether or not you'll ever concede this is another matter.

by azania Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:33 pm

Once again, fighting and beating ancient HoFs doesn't qualify anyone as an ATG other wise Trevor Berbick would also qualify.

Yes, Wlad got spanked. So did Lewis yet some fools rate him top 5. Moore/Charles/Walcott = old men.

Now calm down mummy's boy and quit your temper tantrums.

Chavez was never a cumbersome fighter. Do you actually know anything about boxing boy? Do you watch fights?

by monty junior Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:46 pm

coxy0001 wrote:
azania wrote:
coxy0001 wrote:And lets just leave Az to it lads, guy is a bit (and the rest) of a clown.

First we have Wlad > Marciano and now this. Just an attention seeker, is almost as bad as Truss who at least knows his stuff.

Go forth and multiply little man. o way on this green earth does Rocky beat Wlad and no way should Rocky be ranked ahead of Wlad. Based on achievement, longevity, skill, talent, ability, ring IQ, everything you can think of. Wlad is miles better than Rocky. Roy Jones would beat Rocky with relative ease also. Now this is not about Rocky, but go ahead and rant away mummy's boy.

Did I say Rocky beats Wlad? Are you that much of a complete idiot to assume that?

Achievement: Rocky has multiple HoFs on his CV, not of all which hold huge value but there are some big notable wins. Wlad has zero.

Longevity: Erm, undefeated anyone?

Skill: Erm, must've been that poorer fighter that a much more skilled Moore/Charles/Walcott found an easy way to win.

Talent: One went undefeated. One got spanked and had to be taught how to box in a stupidly negative style. Talent is natural.

Agility: Cripes, should probably slate Chavez for being a pretty cumbersome fighter compared to someone like Whitaker then.

Ring IQ: One went undefeated. One got embarrassed 3 times over and has sat on his arse more times than I can remember.

Just stay quiet little man.

Sorry but what's the point in comparing two fighters if you just keep using one went undefeated and the other lost 3 times? what has that possibly got to do with talent,agility or ring IQ. Shocked

by coxy0001 Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:50 pm

azania wrote:Once again, fighting and beating ancient HoFs doesn't qualify anyone as an ATG other wise Trevor Berbick would also qualify.

Yes, Wlad got spanked. So did Lewis yet some fools rate him top 5. Moore/Charles/Walcott = old men.

Now calm down mummy's boy and quit your temper tantrums.

Chavez was never a cumbersome fighter. Do you actually know anything about boxing boy? Do you watch fights?

I said Chavez was cumbersome in comparison to someone like Whitaker. Learn to read, take it in then reply before making yourself look a bigger buffoon than usual. Judah had it all in terms of agility, but I know who I'd back between him and the relatively cumbersome Chavez.

"Once again, fighting and beating ancient HoFs doesn't qualify anyone as an ATG "

Erm, but beating the likes of Chambers, Mormeck, Austin and Brock do. Here's a question, which one of his victims would you actually rate as a proper noteworthy victory when trying to say how great Wlad is? Common Az, am dying to hear your reasoning on this one.

by coxy0001 Mon 29 Oct 2012, 10:55 pm

monty junior wrote:
coxy0001 wrote:
azania wrote:
coxy0001 wrote:And lets just leave Az to it lads, guy is a bit (and the rest) of a clown.

First we have Wlad > Marciano and now this. Just an attention seeker, is almost as bad as Truss who at least knows his stuff.

Go forth and multiply little man. o way on this green earth does Rocky beat Wlad and no way should Rocky be ranked ahead of Wlad. Based on achievement, longevity, skill, talent, ability, ring IQ, everything you can think of. Wlad is miles better than Rocky. Roy Jones would beat Rocky with relative ease also. Now this is not about Rocky, but go ahead and rant away mummy's boy.

Did I say Rocky beats Wlad? Are you that much of a complete idiot to assume that?

Achievement: Rocky has multiple HoFs on his CV, not of all which hold huge value but there are some big notable wins. Wlad has zero.

Longevity: Erm, undefeated anyone?

Skill: Erm, must've been that poorer fighter that a much more skilled Moore/Charles/Walcott found an easy way to win.

Talent: One went undefeated. One got spanked and had to be taught how to box in a stupidly negative style. Talent is natural.

Agility: Cripes, should probably slate Chavez for being a pretty cumbersome fighter compared to someone like Whitaker then.

Ring IQ: One went undefeated. One got embarrassed 3 times over and has sat on his arse more times than I can remember.

Just stay quiet little man.

Sorry but what's the point in comparing two fighters if you just keep using one went undefeated and the other lost 3 times? what has that possibly got to do with talent,agility or ring IQ.

Excuse me, but I did spell it out for you.... Talent can't be taught, Wlad had to be taught how to basically run and stay at arms length from a guy.

And Ring IQ? Jeez, a fighter to go without losing (yes, I will keep saying it even if you're not smart enough to see the point at hand) shows a level of ring smart against a guy who got knocked out 3 times and then put slap bang on his arse a fair few more. You don't go 49-0 without having your wits about you and end up generally pulverising guys in to submission.

by Sponsored content