England EPS Squad Changes

With a number of injuries and retirements from the EPS Lancaster, as we know is going to have to call up some extra players to the EPS. As soon as the official announcement is made tomorrow i'll update the thread but until then I thought i'd sketch out who needs to be covered for and who's in pole position to get the call up.

At present retired or injured from the latest EPS are:

6. Tom Croft

2. Rob Webber

3. Matt Stevens [RET]

11 (15). B Foden

1. Alex Corbisiero

We have already had one replacement in the EPS for the retired Matt Stevens. Davy Wilson was brought into the EPS a two weeks ago to assume the TH spot on the bench. Wilson had been performing very well for Bath, and in the absence of a young pretender this was a sound call in my opinion.

The other replacements I don't feel are as straightforward. The rumours are that Tom Youngs will be brought in for Rob Webber instead of Quins' Joe Gray. Youngs offers the sort of carrying that I feel is required in the pack and is a similar replacement for Webber. Likewise it is rumoured that Mako Vunipola will be brought in, having only just been promoted to the Saxons squad in order to cover for Corbisiero. Again he's a heavy-weight LH with some superb park skills, but his scrummaging hasn't been tested enough at the highest level. A very similar like-for-like replacement for Corbs (bar scrummaging).

As far as Croft and Foden's replacements go the choices are less clear. Will Lancs bring in another winger, possible Monye or Wade, or will he use Sharples and instead go for another back such as Freddie Burns at FH? Joseph and Tuilagi would cover the other wing spot. Likewise with Croft, will he opt to bring in another flanker such as Carl Fearns or call up the outstanding Joe Launchburry at lock?

The more I think on it the more I feel that there is an opportunity here firstly to look at Freddie Burns as potential back-up to Flood, for the less than convincing attacking talents of Owen Farell; and also give Launchbury the chance he otherwise would've got on the SA tour. Bearing in mind he also covers 6.

Here's my tips for the call ups:

Rob Webber - Tom Youngs, A Corbisiero - M Vunipola (although I think Mullan deserves some recognition), T Croft - J Launchbury, B Foden - F Burns.

What's the thoughts on this?

THE CALL UPS;

Mako Vunipola, Tom Youngs, Ugo Monye, James Haskell

Sky Sports largely agrees:

http://www1.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12504/8190618/Five-players-pushing-hard-for-a-place-in-Stuart-Lancaster-s-England-squad-for-the-QBE-Autumn-Internationals

Has Youngs' lineout throwing improved? It was the only glaring weakness to his game as I remember.

Can he drop other players from the EPS now or is it only retirement/injury cover he can bring in?

His lineout throwing has definitely improved mawhis. It seemed to improve while he was touring in SA, and I think the England coaches had recognised that it needed improvement and spent extra time with him.

Besides, learning from Cockers at Tigers is pretty decent too!

Armchairexpert wrote:Can he drop other players from the EPS now or is it only retirement/injury cover he can bring in?

Ten changes in addition to Injury cover (I think!)

Armchairexpert wrote:Can he drop other players from the EPS now or is it only retirement/injury cover he can bring in?

No the EPS has been set since Lancaster selected it in July. He can only call up injury cover for this squad as far as i'm aware. Come January he can make up to six non-injury related changes.

Youngs' line-out has improved immeasurably so far this season. He's had two not straights when i've watched him across three or four games I think. Which is frankly on a par with most other hookers.

How he'll fair when under international pressure is another matter, but I don't think he had a problem when playing in SA from memory.

Chjw131 wrote:

Armchairexpert wrote:Can he drop other players from the EPS now or is it only retirement/injury cover he can bring in?

No the EPS has been set since Lancaster selected it in July. He can only call up injury cover for this squad as far as i'm aware. Come January he can make up to six non-injury related changes.

That's similar to what I recalled - personally I would like to see the coach able to make up to 6 changes before the AI, 6N and Summer tours to keep players on their toes and an in-form squad but that's a different debate really! Also Lancaster is a huge fan of continuity as we know.

Personally I agree with much of what the original article has said.

Launchberry and Burns are in too good form to leave out and whilst replacing Croft and Foden with players who don't usually play in their respective positions isn't ideal we need to get them in. With Tom Wood returning and Johnson/Brown playing well we should be able to cover for them though.

Our depth at LH is a problem at the moment as without Corbs - Marler,Vunipola and Mullan are all very talented but unconvincing all round players. Though Marlers scrummaging has come on massively in recent times!

At hooker Youngs will probably be the man they stick with as he was selected for the SA tour and is looking a very good player since moving to hooker.

king_carlos wrote:
Our depth at LH is a problem at the moment as without Corbs - Marler,Vunipola and Mullan are all very talented but unconvincing all round players. Though Marlers scrummaging has come on massively in recent times!

What's unconvincing about Marler's game then? He's been on a par with Ayerza as the best loosehead in the league since the start of 2012 (around the same time that Rowntree got his hands on him, although Johnston's sudden improvement at tighthead helped as well). Scrummaging, carrying, tackling and breakdown work are all great.

Marler's strongest attribute in SA was his scrummaging where he was equal to the task it was elsewhere that he seemed less confident and we'll see how that differs now he's had some experience and is in a home series

thomh wrote:

king_carlos wrote:
Our depth at LH is a problem at the moment as without Corbs - Marler,Vunipola and Mullan are all very talented but unconvincing all round players. Though Marlers scrummaging has come on massively in recent times!

What's unconvincing about Marler's game then? He's been on a par with Ayerza as the best loosehead in the league since the start of 2012 (around the same time that Rowntree got his hands on him, although Johnston's sudden improvement at tighthead helped as well). Scrummaging, carrying, tackling and breakdown work are all great.

I merely feel that compared to Corbisiero he is a less complete player. His temperament is still up for question in my book and his scrummaging whilst much improved isn't completely up to scratch as of yet.

I more than hope to be proven wrong in the AI's as a complete Marler fulfilling his potential as back-up or competition to Corbs could give us a great combo at LH for years to come!

Anyone know what time the squad announcement is?

I think to go to South Africa and match them in the scrum department is safe to say the guy can scrummage. And even since then im sure hes improving. AS mentioned on another thread...Rowntree seems to have the knack of getting the England props to go back to their basics and improve them extensively.

Now those complaining about his lack of carrying etc in SA are being a little harsh also.
Imagine going to a place as tough as that on your debut....in a team that really didnt produce much forward carrying at all as they were under the cosh for the majority of the games.

Lets see how he goes against the teams this Autumn...hopefully the pack will give a little more momentum for Marler to get in those positions where his carrying can be used.

On this topic...my pet hate is hearing about this new trend of props who are awesome in the loose...but cant scrummage for toffee...
Sorry i couldnt care a dot how good they are in the loose....i want two props who can scrummage like demented rhinos!! and its nice to see that Marler is vastly improving that area of his game.....

Hopefully Rowntree can help Vunipola with his scrummaging.

Didn't work with Stevens but we'll see if he can with the younger man.

EPS

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/20068633

Forwards: Mouritz Botha (Saracens), Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers), James Haskell (London Wasps), Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs), Courtney Lawes. (Northampton Saints), Joe Marler (Harlequins), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Tom Palmer (London Wasps), Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers), Chris Robshaw (Harlequins), Mako Vunipola (Saracens), Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers), David Wilson (Bath Rugby), Tom Wood (Northampton Saints), Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs: Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Chris Ashton (Saracens), Brad Barritt (Saracens), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Danny Care (Harlequins), Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints), Owen Farrell (Saracens), Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers), Alex Goode (Saracens), Jonathan Joseph (London Irish), Ugo Monye (Harlequins), Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby), Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers), Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Looks like a good squad, should do well. Nice to see a few youngsters propping up the team.

I have to be honest I'm disappointed.

No Twelvetrees, Burns, Biggs, Ford, Wade, Eastmond, Armitage x2

Every time there's an EPS announcement the press has exactly the correct squad 2-3 days in advance. I'm starting to wonder whether its just leaked every time, or whether Lancaster just selects whoever the pundits tell him to.

Real shame not to see Burns there, suggesting Farrell is the backup FH to Flood (I hope not the other way round).

SHarples or Monye for the other wing spot then.

mawhis wrote:Every time there's an EPS announcement the press has exactly the correct squad 2-3 days in advance. I'm starting to wonder whether its just leaked every time, or whether Lancaster just selects whoever the pundits tell him to.

A lot of papers had Launchbury, Kvesic, Wade and others making their debuts, so not all correctly guess!

bluestonevedder wrote:

mawhis wrote:Every time there's an EPS announcement the press has exactly the correct squad 2-3 days in advance. I'm starting to wonder whether its just leaked every time, or whether Lancaster just selects whoever the pundits tell him to.

A lot of papers had Launchbury, Kvesic, Wade and others making their debuts, so not all correctly guess!

there's no point letting facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory!

I more convinced that Lancaster is out of his depth.

Nice to see Daddy selected Owen again.

mawhis wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:

mawhis wrote:Every time there's an EPS announcement the press has exactly the correct squad 2-3 days in advance. I'm starting to wonder whether its just leaked every time, or whether Lancaster just selects whoever the pundits tell him to.

A lot of papers had Launchbury, Kvesic, Wade and others making their debuts, so not all correctly guess!

there's no point letting facts get in the way of a good conspiracy theory!

You're right, I apologise! Maybe they're very selective as to who the squad is leaked to? hmmmmm...

I am assuming that the matchday squads can be picked from the saxons as well? Please say so....

To be honest things are not too bad except for the back up to Flood and the chance to move things on in the 2nd row.

HERSH wrote:I more convinced that Lancaster is out of his depth.

Nice to see Daddy selected Owen again.

Sadly Hersh, i have to say im a little dissapointed by this selection.

Botha?? Wheres Launchbury?
Dowson???
Farrell???
Sharples??

If we have a poor AI's now i fear the knives will be out.

I've been a defender of Farrell Jnr. for a little while but he's had a rubbish season, and frankly based on form only, he shouldn't be in. Same with Anthony Allen.

Burns and 36 should be in there instead. Wade is a firecracker, but not up there at all for defence and Monye is simply the better choice. All in all i think that is a very very good EPS, looking at the team i'd say SL is going for physicality in contact with the potential for good breaks on the front foot.

An interesting selection. Haskell for his experience, although I would've preferred to see Launchbury or Fearns. Monye has been playing well this season and it would be my bet he'll start ahead of Sharples as a 'power winger'.

A mixed bag I feel.

Very poor news on the FH front as well. Considering Farrell has only played two games for Sarries at FH and I don't think they scored a single try in those games, it seems we're left with him as the 2nd FH.

A missed opportunity to get Burns involved at this stage and perhaps prepare him for some appearances come the 6N. Wade has also missed out and it would've been good to see him at least training with the squad.

My other questions are these: 1. Out of the call-ups are any of these likely to be Lions? No would be my answer.

2. Given Monye and Haskell are selected, do we take it to mean Lancs is really pinning a lot on not dropping out of the Top 4?

Chjw131 remember Farrell's 3 games at fly half were vs Leicester,Quins and Exeter. The latter in shocking conditions. Let's get a little bit of perspective before the bash Farrell Jr bandwagon really gets going.

Burns shouldn't be taking Farrell's place. He should be taking that of Sharples or JTH or Allen.


Wade is unlucky I agree.

beshocked wrote:Chjw131 remember Farrell's 3 games at fly half were vs Leicester,Quins and Exeter. The latter in shocking conditions. Let's get a little bit of perspective before the bash Farrell Jr bandwagon really gets going.

Burns shouldn't be taking Farrell's place. He should be taking that of Sharples or JTH or Allen.


Wade is unlucky I agree.

I agree Beshocked and I never advocated Burns taking Farell's place. Lancaster couldn't swap Farrell out anyway he's not injured. I agree he was against some tough opposition, but Leicester and Quins have often looked to play an open game and had Sarries gone in with a bit more of an attacking mind-set maybe he would've been able to demonstrate more skills. Having said that, I think you and every other Sarries supporter would've picked Hodgson to start if that were the case?

Leicester didn't look for an open game! Quins tried but couldn't build any momentum. The gameplan was to shut down Quins and they did it well.

I can understand why Farrell isn't people's cup of tea but he brings something that neither Burns or Flood can offer. The mental toughness to close out the game and he's the best defensive fly half. You would rely on him to kick his goals, make his tackles and pin the opposition back.

Hodgson is the standout fly half in England currently.

He's unavailable though.

Farrell is good at shutting sides down including his own but he's effective at what he does and when he hasn't lost too many games at 10.

My point of view is I would think it would be harsh on Farrell to cruelly cut him from the EPS when he's still a youngster. I would have Burns in but not as a replacement for Farrell.

Launchbury
Fearns
Burns
Wade
Twelvetrees

These are the players I would have liked to have seen in the squad that arent. But i probably wouldnt start any of them anyway.

Easter deserves to be in on form ( i probably would have him in) but i understand lancasters position, he is 34 and will not make the next world cup.

I wouldnt call up the armitage brothers though their schedule with toulon clashes with training camps and I believe the last test in december, for me that renders their selection pointless, they have to be available for every test.

Clearly Lancaster has decided Not to drop anyone on form.

It does feel a bit unbalanced in the backs. Few too many centres, we could definitely do with another fly half (burns), and perhaps another outside back (wade).

Remember - Lancaster is only allowed to make changes to the squad due to injury. Form changes have to wait till January.

This does not stop him selecting anyone for the tests irrespective of whether they are in this training squad.

I personally would have made four more changes to the EPS...

Mouritz Botha (Saracens) - Dave Attwood (Bath)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints) - Carl Fearns (Bath)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints) - Joe Simpson (Wasps)
Owen Farrell (Saracens) - Freddie Burns (Gloucester)

I would also have brought in these players to the Saxons...

Dom Waldouck (Northampton)
Danny Cipriani (Sale)
Billy Vunipola (Wasps)
Matt Garvey (L.Irish)
Nick Wood (Gloucester)
Jamie George (Saracens)

HQ matt wrote:Clearly Lancaster has decided Not to drop anyone on form.
.

He is not allowed to.

He selects a 32 man squad at the start of the season. He is allowed to tell clubs to rest these players (as he did with Parling for one match) and he gets extended access to the players and increased training camps.

then he can make injury replacements for the AIs.

In January he can make 6 form changes and further injury changes.

Aaaarrrrggghhhhhhhh

Lancaster was NOT allowed to make changes for any reason other than injury.

It will be interesting to see if we will see the likes of Launchbury in the match day squads then LT

I doubt it GF - after all they will have missed the extended squad sessions.

The deal with the RFU/PRL is not a bad one for either side - almost quasi central contracts at a price the RFU can afford. More flexibility than central contracts would allow, advanced notice for clubs so they can plan resources.


But it does need the selectors to think ahead when naming the initial squad.

king_carlos wrote:
I merely feel that compared to Corbisiero he is a less complete player. His temperament is still up for question in my book and his scrummaging whilst much improved isn't completely up to scratch as of yet.

Wrong on both counts in my opinion. Haven't seen him have any disciplinary problems for ages, and he dominates his opposite number in the scrum pretty much every week. The scrum was one of Quins' main weapons in the second half of last season. He didn't carry the ball much in South Africa, but skip to 34:20 for an example of his breakdown work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RB5As0nKSkc

Seriously why the most overrated fly half in the country, Cipriani?

Also mentioning the overrated Attwood above the likes of Garvey and Launchbury I can't agree with either

Thanks LT

I wasnt sure of the exact rules concerning changes, am aware that form players usually end up being called up during a series as injury replacements.

so hopefull the likes of:
burns
wade
launchbury

will still be involved in the series

LondonTiger wrote:I doubt it GF - after all they will have missed the extended squad sessions.

The deal with the RFU/PRL is not a bad one for either side - almost quasi central contracts at a price the RFU can afford. More flexibility than central contracts would allow, advanced notice for clubs so they can plan resources.


But it does need the selectors to think ahead when naming the initial squad.

Yeah i think that is being highlighted now.
I think the EPS is a good thing...but i think we can all see the flaw with it...when you have the likes of Dowson in it...but Launchubry / Fearns etc not....

I would like to Launchbury selected for the match days regardless...i think he's superior to all the EPS locks aside from Lawes...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I doubt it GF - after all they will have missed the extended squad sessions.

The deal with the RFU/PRL is not a bad one for either side - almost quasi central contracts at a price the RFU can afford. More flexibility than central contracts would allow, advanced notice for clubs so they can plan resources.


But it does need the selectors to think ahead when naming the initial squad.

Yeah i think that is being highlighted now.
I think the EPS is a good thing...but i think we can all see the flaw with it...when you have the likes of Dowson in it...but Launchubry / Fearns etc not....

I would like to Launchbury selected for the match days regardless...i think he's superior to all the EPS locks aside from Lawes...

I agree GF, it's odd he wasn't selected as a replacement for Croft. This could either be good or bad news. The good news being that Haskell has been brought in and will therefore oust Dowson from the probable bench spot. The bad news being that he's decided to stick with Botha as his number 4 lock...

beshocked wrote:Leicester didn't look for an open game! Quins tried but couldn't build any momentum. The gameplan was to shut down Quins and they did it well.

I can understand why Farrell isn't people's cup of tea but he brings something that neither Burns or Flood can offer. The mental toughness to close out the game and he's the best defensive fly half. You would rely on him to kick his goals, make his tackles and pin the opposition back.

Hodgson is the standout fly half in England currently.

He's unavailable though.

Farrell is good at shutting sides down including his own but he's effective at what he does and when he hasn't lost too many games at 10.

My point of view is I would think it would be harsh on Farrell to cruelly cut him from the EPS when he's still a youngster. I would have Burns in but not as a replacement for Farrell.

I understand what Sarries game-plan was beshocked, that's why I pointed it out. My points were: a) I agree Farrell offers something different and doesn't deserve demotion from the EPS.

b) Do you not think Sarries style hampers his development?

c) Do you not think this is compounded when, even when Sarries do employ a wider game Hodgson is clearly preferred over him?

Chjw131 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:I doubt it GF - after all they will have missed the extended squad sessions.

The deal with the RFU/PRL is not a bad one for either side - almost quasi central contracts at a price the RFU can afford. More flexibility than central contracts would allow, advanced notice for clubs so they can plan resources.


But it does need the selectors to think ahead when naming the initial squad.

Yeah i think that is being highlighted now.
I think the EPS is a good thing...but i think we can all see the flaw with it...when you have the likes of Dowson in it...but Launchubry / Fearns etc not....

I would like to Launchbury selected for the match days regardless...i think he's superior to all the EPS locks aside from Lawes...

I agree GF, it's odd he wasn't selected as a replacement for Croft. This could either be good or bad news. The good news being that Haskell has been brought in and will therefore oust Dowson from the probable bench spot. The bad news being that he's decided to stick with Botha as his number 4 lock...

I reckon we'll be seeing either Lawes and Palmer, or Lawes and Parling to be honest.

Agree with beshocked. Can't agree with the Cipriani call at all. He had one good half of rugby. He's done nothing to merit promotion to the Saxons.

LondonTiger - I understand that Lancaster was not allowed to make any more changes. However, this policy we are currently using is absolutely ridiculous. I was merely suggested changed that I would have liked to have made. So it was just a case of opinion.

Beshocked - Cipriani has serious ability on the front foot. His vision, distribution and passing game are all top notch. The only real question mark concerning Cipriani are his temperament and his defence. We should focus on his strengths. Behind an England pack on the front foot Cipriani would bring far more to England that Owen Farrell. Whilst I rate Flood as an all round 10, he doesn't have that x-factor which Cipriani "could" bring. However, Cippy is by no means the finished article, he'll continue to develop and improve at Sale, so maybe by the six nations in 2013, he'll be ready to make the step up.

robshaw4england wrote:LondonTiger - I understand that Lancaster was not allowed to make any more changes. However, this policy we are currently using is absolutely ridiculous. I was merely suggested changed that I would have liked to have made. So it was just a case of opinion.

We could go back to the old system that caused SCW to resign - ie no contact at all outside Int windows.

I reckon we'll be seeing either Lawes and Palmer, or Lawes and Parling to be honest. .

Yeah Vedder...(by the way any link to Eddie of one of the greatest bands ever) i think your right...on that call.

I think Farrell gets a lot of stick at the moment...and much of it is correct.
He is different from Flood etc and in time he could be a serious player.

At present he has many good attributes for the international game..cool as a cucumber, strong defence and good kicker. However my personal opinion is that these attributes are not good enough alone for someone to play 10 at international level.

A 10 in a team looking to challenge the best in the world needs to have a running game...and a passing game. Now im sure his passing is not as bad as i make out it...(though im still waiting for evidence to the contrary) he doesnt have much of a running game or more importantly that natural attacking instinct.

He can certainly develope these....(is Sarries the place to do that...again im not convinced) but is the full England spot the place to LEARN these taking the place of someone who has looked more advanced...like Burns etc. (I appreciate the EPS is set etc)
I thought Senior England Squad was for enhancing the skills...and development was left to the Saxons....