England 38 man squad

by robshaw4england Mon 20 Oct 2014, 2:45 am

With the squad set to be selected on Wednesday, I'd be interested to see what players people would like to see included.
This would be my squad in no particular order...

01: J.Marler (Quins) A.Waller (Saints) M.Mullan (Wasps)*
02: R.Webber (Bath) D.Hartley (Saints) J.Gray (Quins)
03: D.Wilson (Bath) H.Thomas (Bath) K.Brookes (Newcastle)
04: J.Launchberry (Wasps) G.Kitchener (Leicester)
05: D.Attwood (Bath) C.Lawes (Saints)
06. T.Wood (Saints) J.Haskell (Wasps)
07. C.Robshaw (Quins) W.Fraser (Saracens) M.Kvesic (Gloucester)*
08: B.Vunipola (Saracens) B.Morgan (Gloucester)

Injured: Corbisiero, Vunipola, Youngs, Cole, Slater, Parling, Croft, Garvey, Fearns, Johnson, Dickinson.

09: D.Care (Quins) B.Youngs (Leicester) L.Dickson (Saints)
10: D.Cipriani (Sale) G.Ford (Bath) O.Farrell (Saracens)
11. M.Yarde (Irish) A.Watson (Bath)
12. B.Barritt (Saracens) K.Eastmond (Bath) B.Twelvetrees (Gloucester)*
13. L.Burrell (Saints) J.Joseph (Bath)
14. S.Rokodeguni (Bath) C.Ashton (Saracens)*
15. M.Brown (Quins) B.Foden (Saints) A.Goode (Saracens)

Injured: Allen, Tuilagi, Trinder.

*Marler isn't having the most consistent seasons, whilst Waller is thriving for Saints in Corbisiero's absence. I could see him pressing Marler for a spot in the test XV

*The back row is our most competitive area. With all 5 of our flanker options the official 7's for their clubs; Quins, Saints, Saracens, Wasps and Gloucester respectively. I expect to see Fraser or Kvesic given a starting birth against Samoa.

*I reluctantly picked Twelvetrees, due to his ineffectiveness against better sides. However, Lancaster has faith in him so i'll give him the spot. If Eastmond is fully fit, his form merits a starting position.

*The wings are very open. There are a number of players who must be close to selection including May (LW) Strettle (LW) Sharples (RW) Nowell (RW) and Wade (RW) Chris Ashton really is in the last chance saloon.

This would be my XV to play New Zealand in the first test. Subs in brackets.

01. J.Marler (A.Waller)
02. D.Hartley (R.Webber)
03. D.Wilson (H.Thomas)
04. J.Launchberry (C.Lawes)
05. D.Attwood
06. T.Wood (J.Haskell)
07. C.Robshaw
08. B.Vunipola
09. D.Care (B.Youngs)
10. O.Farrell (D.Cipriani)
11. A.Watson
12. L.Burrell (K.Eastmond)
13. J.Joseph
14. C.Ashton
15. M.Brown

This would be my XV to play Samoa. Mostly squad players to be given a chance. Subs in brackets.

01. A.Waller (M.Mullan)
02. R.Webber (J.Gray)
03. H.Thomas (K.Brookes)
04. C.Lawes (G.Kitchener)
05. D.Attwood
06. J.Haskell
07. W.Fraser (M.Kvesic)
08. B.Morgan
09. B.Youngs (L.Dickson)
10. G.Ford (D.Cipriani)
11. M.Yarde
12. K.Eastmond
13. J.Joseph
14. S.Rokodeguni
15. B.Foden (A.Goode)

by Wi11 Mon 20 Oct 2014, 3:45 am

That second team is daft and would be in great danger of losing. At full strength Samoa are top 6-7 in the world, let's take them seriously.

Otherwise, i agree except for the wings - strettle / wade for me, although i don't expect to see that - and the centres, where i don't know for sure what i want, but it wouldn't involve Eastmond or Joseph yet. Burrell seems an obvious pick if Manu is out.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 4:58 am

Bomber will include some of the injured players in his 38 man squad (those he expects to be match fit in ~January), because he can then replace them short term with fit players and not use up his "permitted changes allowance" once they are fit.

PS: We need a consistent spelling of the bath winger all are raving about. I have seen about 30 different variants on the boards. For what it is worth Bath spell it Rokoduguni

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 7:46 am

LondonTiger wrote:PS: We need a consistent spelling of the bath winger all are raving about. I have seen about 30 different variants on the boards. For what it is worth Bath spell it Rokoduguni

Good luck with that while we are still seeing "Launchberry" in 606 team sheets.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 8:06 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:PS: We need a consistent spelling of the bath winger all are raving about. I have seen about 30 different variants on the boards. For what it is worth Bath spell it Rokoduguni

Good luck with that while we are still seeing "Launchberry" in 606 team sheets.

and Anthony Allan, or Richie Grey

by Geordie Mon 20 Oct 2014, 8:41 am

Wi11 wrote:That second team is daft and would be in great danger of losing. At full strength Samoa are top 6-7 in the world, let's take them seriously.

Otherwise, i agree except for the wings - strettle / wade for me, although i don't expect to see that - and the centres, where i don't know for sure what i want, but it wouldn't involve Eastmond or Joseph yet. Burrell seems an obvious pick if Manu is out.

Im not sure it would be in danger....i would expect that team to beat Samoa.

by cb Mon 20 Oct 2014, 9:20 am

I would have liked to have seen Wade and Ewers in squad with may be a thought to Salde.

by Wi11 Mon 20 Oct 2014, 9:53 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Wi11 wrote:That second team is daft and would be in great danger of losing. At full strength Samoa are top 6-7 in the world, let's take them seriously.

Otherwise, i agree except for the wings - strettle / wade for me, although i don't expect to see that - and the centres, where i don't know for sure what i want, but it wouldn't involve Eastmond or Joseph yet. Burrell seems an obvious pick if Manu is out.

Im not sure it would be in danger....i would expect that team to beat Samoa.

And would you expect it to beat a full strength Wales team or a largely full strength Australia team? Since they've both been comprehensively beaten by Samoa in the last 3 years. As have Scotland, and Italy have been thrashed twice in the last year, including being kept to nil in Apia. Even South Africa and France have had tough matches. It's all good fun thinking Samoa are a rabble who will turn up and get thrashed, and sometimes that's true, just half or more of the time it isn't, and on those occasions picking an inexperienced, untested team would without doubt expose us to a serious chance of being beaten.

by Wi11 Mon 20 Oct 2014, 10:02 am

Besides, that team just got thrashed by Glasgow.

by Exiledinborders Mon 20 Oct 2014, 10:02 am

cb wrote:I would have liked to have seen Wade and Ewers in squad with may be a thought to Salde.

Wade needs to learn to defend. He tackling is adequate but his positioning is dreadful and he makes bad decisions. I would pick Strettle. He defends well and takes his chances. He is not the long term option but he only has to last till 2015.

Slade is a maybe but who would you drop? Same applies to Ewers.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 10:51 am

The 38 (is that the right number?) EPS I expect Lancaster to pick:

Marler, Mullan, Thomas, Wilson, Cole and one of Corbs/Vunipola
Hartley, Webber, Youngs
Attwood, Launchbury, Lawes, Parling
Clark, Haskell, Kvesic, Robshaw, Wood,
Morgan, Vunipola
Care, Dickson, Youngs
Farrell, Ford, Myler
Barritt, Burrell, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi
Ashton, May, Yarde
Brown, Foden, Goode

Remembering that the players he names are those he has for training, and whose playing schedules he can influence, up till he names his WC training squad - with clubs recompensed accordingly.

Thus I have included injured players who currently are deemed likely to be available by 6Ns time, as for the AIs he can replace them.

Expected replacements to be Waller, Brookes, Kitchener and one of joseph/Eastmond.

edited section:

Hmm I only named 36 and forgot a hooker replacement. hooker perhaps Ward as Gray injured and LCD not playing (injured?)
If 38 needed he add a centre - probably Joseph as he is fit and another winger. Lancaster will probably pick one of Nowell or Watson rather than out and out finishers like Wade or Strettle.

by lostinwales Mon 20 Oct 2014, 10:53 am

I'd take the Strettle who 1st appeared on the international scene any time.

The older, wiser version I can imagine will continue to score a lot of tries at domestic and european level, but his last chances for England were all underwhelming. I think that ship has sailed.

by beshocked Mon 20 Oct 2014, 11:39 am

If Yarde was scoring tries for fun for Quins I wouldn't have any hesitation seeing him start for England but he's been disappointingly underwhelming.

Castres was an opportunity to pick up a try or two but his contribution was practically non existent. On the other times I have seen him this season he's been poor too.

Hoping his form will change for England is a big risk in my opinion.

wi11 I think the biggest issue with robshaw's 2nd team is the props. Other than that I don't think it's bad at all.

by Geordie Mon 20 Oct 2014, 11:53 am

Wi11 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Wi11 wrote:That second team is daft and would be in great danger of losing. At full strength Samoa are top 6-7 in the world, let's take them seriously.

Otherwise, i agree except for the wings - strettle / wade for me, although i don't expect to see that - and the centres, where i don't know for sure what i want, but it wouldn't involve Eastmond or Joseph yet. Burrell seems an obvious pick if Manu is out.

Im not sure it would be in danger....i would expect that team to beat Samoa.

And would you expect it to beat a full strength Wales team or a largely full strength Australia team? Since they've both been comprehensively beaten by Samoa in the last 3 years. As have Scotland, and Italy have been thrashed twice in the last year, including being kept to nil in Apia. Even South Africa and France have had tough matches. It's all good fun thinking Samoa are a rabble who will turn up and get thrashed, and sometimes that's true, just half or more of the time it isn't, and on those occasions picking an inexperienced, untested team would without doubt expose us to a serious chance of being beaten.

I certainly dont think they are a rabble that should be under-estimated. I know exactly what they are capable of...however i also trust that we have a strong squad of players who play to a high standard of rugby in a competitive league and Europe.

Many of that team that was listed as the 2nd XV team to play Samoa are right on the cusp of being 1st team starters.
Lawes is a starter, Webber very nearly, Morgan pushing all the time, Attwood has been a revelation this season, Haskell is a top class player pushing for a starting spot...etc etc.

You have to give new players the chance to get a run out...players like young Waller was a find and a half last season...made Corbs injury for Saints half the impact it could have been.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 20 Oct 2014, 11:57 am

I completely forgot Jamie George - he will be the injury replacement for Tom youngs

by Welly Mon 20 Oct 2014, 12:56 pm

Can see Ewers being involved.

by jamesandimac Mon 20 Oct 2014, 1:05 pm

Telegraph reporting that England are not announcing the EPS Squad but rather just the Autumn international squad.

"Due to the number of injuries Lancaster will not name his 33-man EPS on Wednesday and will instead just name a squad for the forthcoming internationals."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11172049/England-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-prepares-to-name-Semesa-Rokoduguni-and-Anthony-Watson-in-squad.html.

by Cumbrian Mon 20 Oct 2014, 1:06 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Wi11 wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:
Wi11 wrote:That second team is daft and would be in great danger of losing. At full strength Samoa are top 6-7 in the world, let's take them seriously.

Otherwise, i agree except for the wings - strettle / wade for me, although i don't expect to see that - and the centres, where i don't know for sure what i want, but it wouldn't involve Eastmond or Joseph yet. Burrell seems an obvious pick if Manu is out.

Im not sure it would be in danger....i would expect that team to beat Samoa.

And would you expect it to beat a full strength Wales team or a largely full strength Australia team? Since they've both been comprehensively beaten by Samoa in the last 3 years. As have Scotland, and Italy have been thrashed twice in the last year, including being kept to nil in Apia. Even South Africa and France have had tough matches. It's all good fun thinking Samoa are a rabble who will turn up and get thrashed, and sometimes that's true, just half or more of the time it isn't, and on those occasions picking an inexperienced, untested team would without doubt expose us to a serious chance of being beaten.

I certainly dont think they are a rabble that should be under-estimated. I know exactly what they are capable of...however i also trust that we have a strong squad of players who play to a high standard of rugby in a competitive league and Europe.

Many of that team that was listed as the 2nd XV team to play Samoa are right on the cusp of being 1st team starters.
Lawes is a starter, Webber very nearly, Morgan pushing all the time, Attwood has been a revelation this season, Haskell is a top class player pushing for a starting spot...etc etc.

You have to give new players the chance to get a run out...players like young Waller was a find and a half last season...made Corbs injury for Saints half the impact it could have been.

I'd echo that, it looks a decent team to me.

by Wi11 Mon 20 Oct 2014, 2:20 pm

robshaw4england wrote:

01. A.Waller (M.Mullan)
02. R.Webber (J.Gray)
03. H.Thomas (K.Brookes)
04. C.Lawes (G.Kitchener)
05. D.Attwood
06. J.Haskell
07. W.Fraser (M.Kvesic)
08. B.Morgan
09. B.Youngs (L.Dickson)
10. G.Ford (D.Cipriani)
11. M.Yarde
12. K.Eastmond
13. J.Joseph
14. S.Rokodeguni
15. B.Foden (A.Goode)

I disagree with the assertions that this is a good team. Plenty of potential but we have no evidence that either prop can cut it, and Webber and Attwood's pack was getting shunted all over the place by the mighty Wasps the other week. The backrow, well I suspect it's 3 good players but Wood and Robshaw would be significant losses. With that 8 I'd expect us to lose in the tight and possibly in the loose up front. In the backs, Youngs sets no tempo. Yarde is not on form. Ford and Eastmond are unproven and their size makes the 10-12 channel vulnerable, so we'd need to alter our defensive balance, which seems risky. Joseph is inexperienced, Rokodoguni is very raw and Foden hasn't played much international rugby for a while. They aren't necessarily going to form a cohesive unit, because they will be nervous and trying to force their game into Lancaster's style - remember England don't play the same way as Bath. Oh, and they won't have any quick ball, because we'll be having a tough time up front and Youngs is at scrum-half. What gives you faith this side would be able to score tries against an international defence?

Finally, when we get into difficulty where is the leadership coming from? The Brand? Stroppy Youngs? Or maybe bring on Cipriani to steady the ship...

A reminder again that half that team just got their backsides handed to them by Glasgow.

And I do think you guys are underestimating Samoa. They have beaten teams much better than the above 15. And they're better than Glasgow.

by Geordie Mon 20 Oct 2014, 2:23 pm

No probs mate... thumbsup

by beshocked Mon 20 Oct 2014, 2:29 pm

wi11 when you put it that way.....you make some very good points.

You could instantly solidify things with Brad at 12. He's a defensive leader.

by cb Mon 20 Oct 2014, 4:48 pm

I think the team is not too bad, obviously not having played together would be a big handicap, but cannot change that too much.

Maybe have Ewers for Fraser and have Haskell as an open-side. Perhaps a bit lightweight in the backs (like Bath) but overall not terrible just lack of experience.

by Cumbrian Mon 20 Oct 2014, 5:43 pm

Wi11 wrote:
robshaw4england wrote:

01. A.Waller (M.Mullan)
02. R.Webber (J.Gray)
03. H.Thomas (K.Brookes)
04. C.Lawes (G.Kitchener)
05. D.Attwood
06. J.Haskell
07. W.Fraser (M.Kvesic)
08. B.Morgan
09. B.Youngs (L.Dickson)
10. G.Ford (D.Cipriani)
11. M.Yarde
12. K.Eastmond
13. J.Joseph
14. S.Rokodeguni
15. B.Foden (A.Goode)

I disagree with the assertions that this is a good team. Plenty of potential but we have no evidence that either prop can cut it [Nor will there be if we never give them a go] , and Webber and Attwood's pack was getting shunted all over the place by the mighty Wasps the other week [The same Wasps that shunted Leinster about for large periods of the game yesterday]). The backrow, well I suspect it's 3 good players but Wood and Robshaw would be significant losses [So we can never try anybody else out? What happens when Robshaw/Wood inevitably get injured?]. With that 8 I'd expect us to lose in the tight and possibly in the loose up front. In the backs, Youngs sets no tempo. Yarde is not on form [Yet is likley to start against NZ]. Ford and Eastmond are unproven and their size makes the 10-12 channel vulnerable, so we'd need to alter our defensive balance, which seems risky.[You may have a point] Joseph is inexperienced [True, but he's already played for England in S.A on a summer tour, are Samoa at home a bigger test?], Rokodoguni is very raw and Foden hasn't played much international rugby for a while. They aren't necessarily going to form a cohesive unit, because they will be nervous and trying to force their game into Lancaster's style - remember England don't play the same way as Bath. Oh, and they won't have any quick ball, because we'll be having a tough time up front and Youngs is at scrum-half. What gives you faith this side would be able to score tries against an international defence?

Finally, when we get into difficulty where is the leadership coming from? The Brand? Stroppy Youngs? Or maybe bring on Cipriani to steady the ship...

A reminder again that half that team just got their backsides handed to them by Glasgow.

And I do think you guys are underestimating Samoa. They have beaten teams much better than the above 15. And they're better than Glasgow.

It's also (more pertinently) the backline that has got Bath to joint third in the league (Smashing Tigers and beating Sarries along the way) and the second highest try scorers in the league. Bath lost the game against Glasgow because they got beaten up front, largely because they had a back-row consisting of a second-row and a kid who had yet to start a game up to that point.

You're wrong to dismiss Foden because of a lack of recent international rugby, the bloke has 34 caps. You don't just lose that experience.

Without being disrespectful, Samoa are going to be the weakest team we face at Twickenham this year. Other players need to be looked at IMO.

by jamesandimac Mon 20 Oct 2014, 6:59 pm

For what its worth:

1. Marler, Mullen, Waller
2. Hartley, Webber, George
3. Wilson, Brookes, Wilson
4. Launchbury, Attwood
5. Lawes, Kitchener, Kruis
6. Haskell, Ewers
7. Robshaw, Wood
8. Morgan, Vunipola
9. Care, Youngs, Dickson
10. Farrell, Ford, Slade (Cipriani if Slade picked as a 12)
11. Yarde, May, Watson
12. Twelvetrees, Eastmond (Slade if unfit)
13. Burrell, Joseph
14. Wade, Rokoduguni
15. Brown, Foden/Goode

1st choice NZ and SA

1. Marler
2. Hartley
3. Wilson
4. Launchbury
5. Lawes
6. Haskell
7. Robshaw (C)
8. Morgan
9. Care
10. Farrell
11. May
12. Twelvetrees
13. Burrell
14. Rokoduguni
15. Brown

16. Mullen
17. Webber
18. Brookes
19. Attwood
20. Vunipola
21. Youngs
22. Ford
23. Watson

Second choice (Samoa)

1. Mullen
2. Webber
3. Brookes
4. Attwood
5. Kitchener
6. Ewers
7. Wood (C)
8. Vunipola
9. Youngs
10. Ford
11. Yarde
12. Eastmond/
13. Joseph
14. Wade
15. Foden

16. Waller
17. George
18. Wilson
19. Kruis
20. Fraser/Clarke
21. Dickson
22. Slade
23. Watson

For Australia go for the strongest side possible based on performances.

by Welly Mon 20 Oct 2014, 7:10 pm

Although he will be in it I would have Barritt over Twelvetrees ATM.

by jamesandimac Mon 20 Oct 2014, 7:15 pm

I just think that Twelvetrees' partnership with Burrell last season was one of the key highlights for me. We've struggled for an effective combination there and Manu's absence will give us the opportunity to see it again.

Granted Barritt hasn't played much internationally in the past year so maybe people forget his performances. Yes he is a rock in defence, but other than one break against NZ he offered very little in the attacking sense in the remaining appearances.

by Exiledinborders Mon 20 Oct 2014, 7:35 pm

lostinwales wrote:I'd take the Strettle who 1st appeared on the international scene any time.

The older, wiser version I can imagine will continue to score a lot of tries at domestic and european level, but his last chances for England were all underwhelming. I think that ship has sailed.

All the England wingers have been underwhelming. That make me think that the wingers are not the problem.

by lostinwales Mon 20 Oct 2014, 10:42 pm

Exiledinborders wrote:
lostinwales wrote:I'd take the Strettle who 1st appeared on the international scene any time.

The older, wiser version I can imagine will continue to score a lot of tries at domestic and european level, but his last chances for England were all underwhelming. I think that ship has sailed.
All the England wingers have been underwhelming. That make me think that the wingers are not the problem.

You have a point, but even when Strettle did get the ball he didnt look at all dangerous

by lostinwales Tue 21 Oct 2014, 1:18 am

Exiledinborders wrote:
lostinwales wrote:I'd take the Strettle who 1st appeared on the international scene any time.

The older, wiser version I can imagine will continue to score a lot of tries at domestic and european level, but his last chances for England were all underwhelming. I think that ship has sailed.
All the England wingers have been underwhelming. That make me think that the wingers are not the problem.

by yappysnap Tue 21 Oct 2014, 7:53 am

LondonTiger wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:PS: We need a consistent spelling of the bath winger all are raving about. I have seen about 30 different variants on the boards. For what it is worth Bath spell it Rokoduguni

Good luck with that while we are still seeing "Launchberry" in 606 team sheets.

and Anthony Allan, or Richie Grey

Hey in my defence I think it looks better that way!!

by HQ matt Tue 21 Oct 2014, 8:21 am

The pack is pretty settled nowadays. There are a few injuries, as always but replacements almost pick themselves.

i expect lancaster to stick with wood despite haskells form for wasps and similar attwood.

the backs however is as open as i can remember it. Care and brown must be nailed on and with tuilagi injured i expect burrell to start.

The rest well... it should be ford at 10 with farrell lacking gametime but wouldnt be surprised if lancaster stuck with farrell.

I suppose 12 is likely to be 12trees but i would prefer eastmond or frankly barritt.

the wings are anyones guess. Yarde is in possesion after a good summer. Ashton the most experienced option and he scores tries.
Wade despite his positioning in defence is still the player id like to see given the chance, maybe not from the start of the series but at some poibt. I just feel that other nations for find a spot for a player with his talent.

by king_carlos Tue 21 Oct 2014, 3:34 pm

Wade's positioning may not be great but exclude Nowell and let's face it few of the wingers defence is standout.

Ashton and Yarde have both been known to fall off tackles.

May whilst making his hits had some clangers when fielding kicks under pressure - remember that pass into Mike Brown face from about a yard away from touch!

Watson is pretty solid in this regard though and I haven't seen Rokodugini make too many errors in defence. Plus he's a big unit so shouldn't struggle physically.

Strettle is an interesting one. I'd be neither massively disappointed or particularly happy to see him recalled. He keeps performing for one of the top clubs in the country and scores tries. However I feel his chance passed when he didn't take his opportunity on the Argentina tour. Given the lack of standout options Lancaster will really be taking a punt on the wingers he chooses and I'd rather that chance go to a youngster.

9.Care
10.Farrell - If Owen hasn't had sufficient gametime bench him and start Ford

11.Yarde
12.Twelvetrees
13.Burrell
14.Wade
15.Brown

Personally I'd like to see the above given a chance in the AI's.

It's all well and good saying I don't want to see Savea running at Wade, but then which of our wingers do you want him running at? He's a player that runs through flankers often for fun - even Robshaw fell off him once in the Summer. The only way to negate players like that is to disrupt their sides ball speed and pressure their half backs into making errors. If we allow the AB's quick, front foot ball then Wade's tackling will be the least of our worries!

by **George Carlin** Tue 21 Oct 2014, 3:59 pm

I agree that some people seem to think Samoa will be a scoosh and if so, I don't understand that.

They're currently ranked 9th in the world, just behind Scotland and ahead of Argentina.

A Samoa team could have Ti’i Paulo, James Johnston, Logovi'i Mulipola, Daniel Leo, Joe Tekori, Ofisa Treviranus, Johnny Leota, George and Ken Pisi and Kahn Fotuali'i all playing. Not nothing.

by Geordie Tue 21 Oct 2014, 4:10 pm

They're currently ranked 9th in the world, just behind Scotland and ahead of Argentina

And thats why we're sending our second team out there... Wink

Being serious though, we play 4 friendlies and through those games we have to give a few of the sqaud games.

I wouldnt want to put too many newbies in against NZ or SA (i would still be prepared to give the odd one a go though) .

Which means you have to give a few a go against Australia and Samoa. Obviously the young forwards will come in to play Australia Very Happy

But i dont think anyone is underestimating anyone. And you can bet you a$$ Lancaster and his team wont be.

But lets get something clear...we have some quality players, and top class youngsters coming through aswell. The likes of Alex Waller is a hell of a player...etc.

Lets not under-estimate OUR players either.....

by lostinwales Tue 21 Oct 2014, 5:22 pm

Manu confirmed out of the autumn internationals (or all but confirmed depending on where you look). He has been a bit of a sicknote last couple of seasons Sad

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 21 Oct 2014, 6:14 pm

lostinwales wrote:Manu confirmed out of the autumn internationals (or all but confirmed depending on where you look). He has been a bit of a sicknote last couple of seasons

I've had a feeling for a while now that Manu won't be fit for the World Cup. If that actually happens, then I'll start doing palm readings for a living. At least we get to see other combinations - oh, hang on, didn't we say that during the last Six Nations?

by Welly Tue 21 Oct 2014, 8:37 pm

Clark should not be near the EPS at the minute there are better players than him about.

by Wi11 Wed 22 Oct 2014, 1:28 am

Cumbrian wrote:
Wi11 wrote:
robshaw4england wrote:

01. A.Waller (M.Mullan)
02. R.Webber (J.Gray)
03. H.Thomas (K.Brookes)
04. C.Lawes (G.Kitchener)
05. D.Attwood
06. J.Haskell
07. W.Fraser (M.Kvesic)
08. B.Morgan
09. B.Youngs (L.Dickson)
10. G.Ford (D.Cipriani)
11. M.Yarde
12. K.Eastmond
13. J.Joseph
14. S.Rokodeguni
15. B.Foden (A.Goode)

I disagree with the assertions that this is a good team. Plenty of potential but we have no evidence that either prop can cut it [Nor will there be if we never give them a go] , and Webber and Attwood's pack was getting shunted all over the place by the mighty Wasps the other week [The same Wasps that shunted Leinster about for large periods of the game yesterday]). The backrow, well I suspect it's 3 good players but Wood and Robshaw would be significant losses [So we can never try anybody else out? What happens when Robshaw/Wood inevitably get injured?]. With that 8 I'd expect us to lose in the tight and possibly in the loose up front. In the backs, Youngs sets no tempo. Yarde is not on form [Yet is likley to start against NZ]. Ford and Eastmond are unproven and their size makes the 10-12 channel vulnerable, so we'd need to alter our defensive balance, which seems risky.[You may have a point] Joseph is inexperienced [True, but he's already played for England in S.A on a summer tour, are Samoa at home a bigger test?], Rokodoguni is very raw and Foden hasn't played much international rugby for a while. They aren't necessarily going to form a cohesive unit, because they will be nervous and trying to force their game into Lancaster's style - remember England don't play the same way as Bath. Oh, and they won't have any quick ball, because we'll be having a tough time up front and Youngs is at scrum-half. What gives you faith this side would be able to score tries against an international defence?

Finally, when we get into difficulty where is the leadership coming from? The Brand? Stroppy Youngs? Or maybe bring on Cipriani to steady the ship...

A reminder again that half that team just got their backsides handed to them by Glasgow.

And I do think you guys are underestimating Samoa. They have beaten teams much better than the above 15. And they're better than Glasgow.

It's also (more pertinently) the backline that has got Bath to joint third in the league (Smashing Tigers and beating Sarries along the way) and the second highest try scorers in the league. Bath lost the game against Glasgow because they got beaten up front, largely because they had a back-row consisting of a second-row and a kid who had yet to start a game up to that point. oh, so bringing in just one experienced player can cost you? But England should bring in about 8 at once and they'll be fine?

You're wrong to dismiss Foden because of a lack of recent international rugby, the bloke has 34 caps. You don't just lose that experience.

Without being disrespectful, Samoa are going to be the weakest team we face at Twickenham this year. Other players need to be looked at IMO.

I think you're missing the point. I don't think that none of those players are good (some e.g. Foden certainly are) nor do I argue that we should never try any of them. But that team has very little experience playing together under England's systems, and little experience of regular international rugby - and the intensity of that game wiil be high, even if Samoa are the weakest of our four opponents. It also doesn't balance well as a team imo - there is a lack of big, solid players who could stand up to Samoa physically. Basically I think it's a team selected by listing all the players someone wants to see given a chance and throwing them into one XV. I think that is a poor way to select a competitive international team.

It also doesn't truly show you how someone is going to fare in the England first XV, because they aren't playing with the first choice players. E.g. seeing Ford play with his old scrum half and current centres tells us little new or useful, since if he breaks into the first team he'll be playing with Care, Burrell, Tuilagi or whatever. We might as well just watch them play for the clubs as watch them play for a XV that does not resemble a plausible future England team...

I say keep a relatively stable starting team, build familiarity, and give new people chances to impress off the bench, which can happen in all 4 games, if match situation allows. Anyone particularly impressing off the bench or in practice gets a start against one or both of Samoa and Australia, but within the context of a broadly similar team to that played in the first two games. I think the main priority this autumn is to get into a habit of winning well at Twickenham.

For the record I guess Ford and Webber are two people I'd definitely like to start one game. I think it's sensible to give Foden a game too - he's reliable, versatile and it gives Brown a week off. Personally I'd love to see Wade given an extended run in the team, but he's been a bit shaky since his injury, so that might not happen. Other than those I've just mentioned I'm happy to go with whoever's impressing Lancaster.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 22 Oct 2014, 7:38 am

Telegraph thinks no Burns, Cips, Ashton or Fraser. Expects Myler, Roko and Clark.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/11178446/Stuart-Lancaster-drops-Chris-Ashton-in-favour-of-untested-Rokoduguni-ahead-of-the-autumn-internationals.html

by Cumbrian Wed 22 Oct 2014, 8:01 am

Will

I get what you’re saying. You want consistency is selection. Fair enough, in an ideal world that would be great, but how often do we ever actually get to put out the same team in consecutive matches anyway? I want to see England bring through players who can fit in with the spine of an established/experienced team (we seem to agree on that) and I would argue that, that is what is being proposed above (in the pack at least).

Regarding your bit in bold, I assume you mean inexperienced rather than experienced. It wasn’t ONE inexperience player as I explained, it was one inexperience player (David Sisi) player PLUS a guy who only ever plays second row (Dom Day). I don’t see how you can compare that to the back-row that was suggested above that contains Haskell (51 caps), Ben Morgan (23 Caps), even Fraser has had games for the Saxons and against the Barabarians.

Aside from that it’s not like the quoted pack is completely alien from the first team that is likely to play in the first two tests. Webber, Lawes, Haskell and Morgan all have reasonable shouts of starting as has Attwood, don’t really see what is so ‘daft’ about that.

My point being, these aren’t emergency call-ups because of an injury crisis, they are the next taxi off the rank. All could reasonably expect to get a call to play against NZ, SA or Aus and all should be ready to play alongside each other.

As an aside, you got my back up by continually bringing up Bath’s performance against Glasgow, like one game means the players are simply bad. Both Bath’s backs and forwards have been outstanding for most of this season and one game doesn’t completely discredit that.

by Geordie Wed 22 Oct 2014, 8:55 am

Dont forget the Bath- Glasgow game...Bath had rested their entire front row so they missed the platform of Webber and Wilson etc.

Regardless, Wii i think your missing the point. But im not going to repeat what both myself AND cumbrian have said on the matter.

As for the Squad, the Telegraph is usually spot on with their calls. Be dissappointed if Fraser wasnt involved.

by bluestonevedder Wed 22 Oct 2014, 10:14 am

Twelvetrees and Burell is a partnership I actually think could work given more time. They were pretty decent during the Six nations last year and I wouldn't be disappointed for them to be there starters.

RugbyFan- part of me thinks you could be right! But I honestly hope it isn't the case.

by beshocked Wed 22 Oct 2014, 10:21 am

how do we fix the wings?

Tackling is optional for the likes of Yarde,Wade and Ashton.

Nowell can't score tries. May can't run in a straight line for england.

What do we do?

Gamble on roko?

I am glad fraser is mentioned as a 7 contender because when fit he generally does well.

He has regularly held his own against the best teams in Europe. I think he's better than Burger these days.

It should be noted that Saracens very rarely lose with him in the team. Actually I cannot remember the last loss with him!

by **LondonTiger** Wed 22 Oct 2014, 10:22 am

Fraser does need to stay fit though.

by beshocked Wed 22 Oct 2014, 10:40 am

That's his biggest issue - Saracens missed him in the latter stages of the last two seasons and they lost all the games he wasn't in.

It's obvious how important and how good he is - when both losses to Saints and Toulon were without him.

Bath loss this season - no Fraser.

Now I am not saying that Fraser would singlehandedly win these games if he were in them but particularly the Toulon games where the Toulon backrowers had a field day he could have certainly helped.

It's funny because he is almost following in the footsteps of another Saracens backrower. Whistle

by Welly Wed 22 Oct 2014, 10:42 am

So it looks ike we have no actual 7's in the squad by the looks of it.

by beshocked Wed 22 Oct 2014, 10:48 am

Why has Fraser not been called up? Will Fraser is definitely a 7. So is Ksevic.

by Welly Wed 22 Oct 2014, 10:52 am

beshocked wrote:Why has Fraser not been called up? Will Fraser is definitely a 7. So is Ksevic.

Guess Lancaster prefers 6's who can have a dabble @ 7.

Robshaw, Clark and Haskell as 7 cover isn't right imo.

by Geordie Wed 22 Oct 2014, 10:54 am

But Lancaster doesnt play traditional 6 & 7's so why is it a surprise.

He plays a left and right flanker who both can do everything well.
Robshaw, Johnson, Robshaw - Callum Clark.
All 6'4, lean but strong, good engines, tackle well, ruck well, carry ok, lineout options....
Clark has received big praise from Tom Wood in an interview.

LT Posted this on another thread

Tom Wood has praised "stalwart" Calum Clark following the flanker's positive displays for the Northampton Saints so far this season.

The 25-year-old has played his part in the Saints' run of five wins from seven games this campaign, particularly catching the eye in the 20-11 European Rugby Champions Cup defeat at the hands of Racing Metro last weekend.

"Cal's got a huge engine," the Northampton Chronicle quotes Wood as saying. "He's full of heart and desire and he puts his body on the line week in, week out.

"He hasn't had a huge amount of luck with injuries and suspensions and he's been in the trenches a lot when the internationals have been away from Saints. He's an absolute stalwart, he grafts, he leads during the week doing his own thing. He's very professional.

"He gets his reward in big games playing like he does. He's a warrior in there for us and we rely a lot on him for energy and physicality. He's very good at the breakdown, a big heavy man, and much heavier than you'd think for his agility and his work rate. He goes really well in our pack."

Northampton are currently top of the Aviva Premiership table..

by Welly Wed 22 Oct 2014, 11:00 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Lancaster doesnt play traditional 6 & 7's so why is it a surprise.

He plays a left and right flanker who both can do everything well.
Robshaw, Johnson, Robshaw - Callum Clark.
All 6'4, lean but strong, good engines, tackle well, ruck well, carry ok, lineout options....
Clark has received big praise from Tom Wood in an interview.

LT Posted this on another thread

Clark is a leeds lad that is all Lancaster has been desperate to include him in the EPs for ages now.

by Sponsored content