England EPS Squad Changes

First topic message reminder :

With a number of injuries and retirements from the EPS Lancaster, as we know is going to have to call up some extra players to the EPS. As soon as the official announcement is made tomorrow i'll update the thread but until then I thought i'd sketch out who needs to be covered for and who's in pole position to get the call up.

At present retired or injured from the latest EPS are:

6. Tom Croft

2. Rob Webber

3. Matt Stevens [RET]

11 (15). B Foden

1. Alex Corbisiero

We have already had one replacement in the EPS for the retired Matt Stevens. Davy Wilson was brought into the EPS a two weeks ago to assume the TH spot on the bench. Wilson had been performing very well for Bath, and in the absence of a young pretender this was a sound call in my opinion.

The other replacements I don't feel are as straightforward. The rumours are that Tom Youngs will be brought in for Rob Webber instead of Quins' Joe Gray. Youngs offers the sort of carrying that I feel is required in the pack and is a similar replacement for Webber. Likewise it is rumoured that Mako Vunipola will be brought in, having only just been promoted to the Saxons squad in order to cover for Corbisiero. Again he's a heavy-weight LH with some superb park skills, but his scrummaging hasn't been tested enough at the highest level. A very similar like-for-like replacement for Corbs (bar scrummaging).

As far as Croft and Foden's replacements go the choices are less clear. Will Lancs bring in another winger, possible Monye or Wade, or will he use Sharples and instead go for another back such as Freddie Burns at FH? Joseph and Tuilagi would cover the other wing spot. Likewise with Croft, will he opt to bring in another flanker such as Carl Fearns or call up the outstanding Joe Launchburry at lock?

The more I think on it the more I feel that there is an opportunity here firstly to look at Freddie Burns as potential back-up to Flood, for the less than convincing attacking talents of Owen Farell; and also give Launchbury the chance he otherwise would've got on the SA tour. Bearing in mind he also covers 6.

Here's my tips for the call ups:

Rob Webber - Tom Youngs, A Corbisiero - M Vunipola (although I think Mullan deserves some recognition), T Croft - J Launchbury, B Foden - F Burns.

What's the thoughts on this?

THE CALL UPS;

Mako Vunipola, Tom Youngs, Ugo Monye, James Haskell

LondonTiger wrote:

robshaw4england wrote:LondonTiger - I understand that Lancaster was not allowed to make any more changes. However, this policy we are currently using is absolutely ridiculous. I was merely suggested changed that I would have liked to have made. So it was just a case of opinion.

We could go back to the old system that caused SCW to resign - ie no contact at all outside Int windows.

+1

This system was introduced because we wanted to take players off their clubs for an extra 7 or 8 weeks on top of the international window. They wanted to know in advance which ones would be missing so they could take it into account when planning their playing squads. That is completely and utterly understandable and fair. It also forces some sort of consistency on the squad. Botha is there because he was picked in July. Has anything happened in the last couple of months to change your opinion of him? Mine hasn't, I still don't think he's good enough, but Lancaster likes him and keeps picking him regardless of how many changes he can make.

WHY is Botha in ahead of Garvey? And I'm disappointed that Burns isn't in there.

It is indeed GF- Stone is as well! One of my favourite bands of all time, and my favourite guitarist.

Agree with what you're saying about Farrell. He's a very useful player, in that he is ice-cool and kicks very well (drop goal attempt in SA, final test, aside). He's a very good option to bring on and see a game out (if we're winning).

The problem comes when we are forced to bring him on and are looking for points. He's not creative enough YET to engage the backs effectively and score some tries.

bluestonevedder wrote:It is indeed GF- Stone is as well! One of my favourite bands of all time, and my favourite guitarist.

Agree with what you're saying about Farrell. He's a very useful player, in that he is ice-cool and kicks very well (drop goal attempt in SA, final test, aside). He's a very good option to bring on and see a game out (if we're winning).

The problem comes when we are forced to bring him on and are looking for points. He's not creative enough YET to engage the backs effectively and score some tries.

In a nutshell Vedder. And I agree wholehartedly GF, surely the Saxons is the place to be developing young talent. He isn't starting for Sarries, and if he was in the Saxons would you start him ahead of George Ford or Freddie Burns?

He hasn't done anything to 'deserve' demotion as such, but Lancasters original EPS selection from July and now his injury updates seem to me to be sticking to a formula I mooted a few months ago. It works on the basis of until EPS members actively do something to deserve to be dropped they won't be. Ergo Dowson, Botha and pre-retirement Stevens in the EPS in July. Along with JTH.

Sometimes people need moving out because there are better form players beneath them.

Agreed 100%

The maintenance of average status quo is not good enough at elite level.

I suspect that it is all to do with Lancaster's obssession with "culture then performance".

I would have had 36, Burns, Fearns and Launchbury in for

JTH, Allen, Dowson and Botha.

That said

I also think that for all his hard work Botha is dross - he misses too many tackles and drops ball.

I'd have swapped him for Launchbury who is the next big thing at srow.

Still one can still put together a good 23 fron this lot….

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Palmer/Parling *
Haskell/Wood
Robshaw (c )
Morgan
Care
Flood
Barrit
Tuilagi (covering 12)
Ashton
Sharples/Monye
Brown

Wilson
Vunipola
T.Youngs
Parling/Palmer
Haskell (covers 6,7,8) /Wood (covers 6,7)
B.Youngs
Alex Goode (covers 15 and 10)
Joseph (covering 13 and wing)

* (for lineout and ball carrying balance it's either Parling srow with Haskell 6 OR Palmer srow with Wood at 6 )

Right now then if we win 2 or less AIs and Bomber gets the jack…..give me a newly created England Head Armchair Selector Job!

Merge all these threads or suffer me and others duplicating posts!!!!

We need a merge it must be said!

EPS topics merged.

Cheers Biltong!

Thanks Biltong

No worries guys.

Thank you Mr Biltong.

Triangulation wrote:Agreed 100%

The maintenance of average status quo is not good enough at elite level.

I suspect that it is all to do with Lancaster's obssession with "culture then performance".

I would have had 36, Burns, Fearns and Launchbury in for

JTH, Allen, Dowson and Botha.

That said

I also think that for all his hard work Botha is dross - he misses too many tackles and drops ball.

I'd have swapped him for Launchbury who is the next big thing at srow.

Still one can still put together a good 23 fron this lot….

Marler
Hartley
Cole
Lawes
Palmer/Parling *
Haskell/Wood
Robshaw (c )
Morgan
Care
Flood
Barrit
Tuilagi (covering 12)
Ashton
Sharples/Monye
Brown

Wilson
Vunipola
T.Youngs
Parling/Palmer
Haskell (covers 6,7,8) /Wood (covers 6,7)
B.Youngs
Alex Goode (covers 15 and 10)
Joseph (covering 13 and wing)

* (for lineout and ball carrying balance it's either Parling srow with Haskell 6 OR Palmer srow with Wood at 6 )

Right now then if we win 2 or less AIs and Bomber gets the jack…..give me a newly created England Head Armchair Selector Job!

Merge all these threads or suffer me and others duplicating posts!!!!

you wouldn't off as your only allowed to swap injured players.

LondonTiger wrote:Aaaarrrrggghhhhhhhh

Lancaster was NOT allowed to make changes for any reason other than injury.

Shame Farrell wasn't injured

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Aaaarrrrggghhhhhhhh

Lancaster was NOT allowed to make changes for any reason other than injury.

Shame Farrell wasn't injured

Unnecessary

What did Farrell ever do to deserve his selection? Other then have his dad in charge...

I think it's a good squad. Again compare it with test squads from 3 or 4 years ago. Of course there are players we think shouldn't be there, and players who we'd like to have seen, but I'd say this squad is 80%+ right, and I doubt we'll ever see better than 90% right from any coach.

Farrell was never going to be dropped, similarly nothing was going to happen with the locks and I'm glad they have held back on Wade for a few more months.

January is the chance to reassess. In the meantime the next 4 games are far more important than the 6 Nations this year, so this is not the time to experiment. Still, there is a youthful feel to the squad these days even without taking too many risks in this squad.

If Dowson, Botha (who has been playing well recently) and Farrell are your biggest problems then things can't be too bad.

As many have said here it's a bit disappointing to not see Burns or Launchberry in there.

Not a bad squad when you consider some of the selections we've had to put up with over the last few years though! If I were to pick a squad from scratch I'd only make around 5 changes - which isn't to drastic when you consider most of those are personal preference.

My squad from scratch:

LH - Marler, Vunipola (though Mullan is pushing him close)

Hookers - Hartley, Youngs

TH - Cole, Doran-Jones

Lock - Parling, Lawes, Palmer, Launchberry

Flanker - Robshaw, Wood, Haskell, Johnson

No 8 - Morgan, Fearns

SH - Care, Youngs, Dickson

FH - Flood, Burns

IC - Barritt, Twelvetrees, Allen

OC - Tuilagi, Joseph

Wing - Ashton, Monye, Johnny May

FB - Brown, Goode

So only 6 changes there from the squad we've just seen announced and in most cases I can see the argument against them such as Sharples already been around the squad, Botha/Waldrom consistently good for clubs, Wilson playing well at Bath etc.

Without injury I'd then have:

Corbisiero for Vunipola

Webber for Youngs

Croft for Johnson - feel slightly bad about that as Johnson has played very well for a long period but I just feel Haskell adds more physicality and ball carrying that we really need in the pack.

Foden for Goode

All in all not to much to complain about if I'm honest.

king carlos, thats a good post and i agree with much of what you say.

id like to see burns, fearns and launchbury (possibly wade and 12trees) but none of those would immediately affect the starting 15, so whats the big deal.

also i think we are likely to see some of these players called up durung the series as injury replacements.

oh and there is a lot of unfair criticism of young farrell on here, dont forget he has been to paris and won and played in a premiership winning side, thats a great CV for such a young man. he has limitations to his game and he does seem to be feeling the pressure of competing with hodgeson at sarries but i still think he is worth his place in the EPS.

To be fair to Farrell, he did have a good 6 Nations and showed nerves of steel to kick some of those game winning points in Paris, not to mention the game saving tackle!

He will play a part in England's future despite not hitting top form at the moment.

EnglishReign wrote:To be fair to Farrell, he did have a good 6 Nations and showed nerves of steel to kick some of those game winning points in Paris, not to mention the game saving tackle!

This is why i tend to stick up for him. He is good under pressure, great mental strenght, pulled a blinder out the bag last 6N. The SA tour he had a bit of a shocker, and this season he was actually replaced at half time due to being so dire in one game. He just hasn't warranted his place for the AI's.

That's not to say i'm one of his ever-growing legion of nay-sayers. He's potentially exceptional with all the right qualities to make a great international calibre player, but simply based on form at the moment i wouldn't include him. On the flip side though, will dropping him do more harm than good? Would more time on the international stage prepare him for the long term goal of performing in the RWC2015? It's a tough one alright.

AlastairW wrote:

EnglishReign wrote:To be fair to Farrell, he did have a good 6 Nations and showed nerves of steel to kick some of those game winning points in Paris, not to mention the game saving tackle!

This is why i tend to stick up for him. He is good under pressure, great mental strenght, pulled a blinder out the bag last 6N. The SA tour he had a bit of a shocker, and this season he was actually replaced at half time due to being so dire in one game. He just hasn't warranted his place for the AI's.

That's not to say i'm one of his ever-growing legion of nay-sayers. He's potentially exceptional with all the right qualities to make a great international calibre player, but simply based on form at the moment i wouldn't include him. On the flip side though, will dropping him do more harm than good? Would more time on the international stage prepare him for the long term goal of performing in the RWC2015? It's a tough one alright.

This is the dilemma.

A problem that Farrell and other young fly half prospects have is that they have very strong competition.

Farrell has Hodgson

Ford has Flood

Clegg has Evans

Heathcote has Donald

It's quite difficult to get game time with these guys around. The consolation for Ford is that Flood will be on international duty - the others.....

In contrast Burns has no one. Who would actually step up to FH if Burns is injured at Gloucester? Possibly Billy?

Gloucester should count their lucky stars Burns and Twelvetrees weren't called up.

Cipriani is not yet back into contention but with Macleod as his strongest rival he has plenty of opportunity to impress.

Players shouldn't be picked for England until they're starting for their clubs.

mawhis wrote:Players shouldn't be picked for England until they're starting for their clubs.

what about when those clubs have a rotation policy which we're starting to see more and more.

mawhis wrote:Players shouldn't be picked for England until they're starting for their clubs.

England shouldn't have picked Cole at all because he was sharing Leicester's tight head shirt with Castro.

Let's not include a quality tight head because he doesn't play every game. Sarcasm by the way.

Look at it this way - Farrell might be seen as poor but he's still arguably better than the likes of Macleod,Myler,Lamb,Cipriani or do you want to see them lining up for England?

Hodgson is very tough competition.

You don't want player burnout if a player is playing virtually every game at club level then flogged in the internationals he'll be knackered.

nathan wrote:

mawhis wrote:Players shouldn't be picked for England until they're starting for their clubs.

what about when those clubs have a rotation policy which we're starting to see more and more.

every club has a "First" XV that, when fit, starts in the biggest games, Heineken cup matches, important premiership games, etc. They are the players with the big game experience. If a player can't convince the coaches who work with him week in/week out that he's up to it, England should pass him over, in my opinion at least.

beshocked wrote:

mawhis wrote:Players shouldn't be picked for England until they're starting for their clubs.

England shouldn't have picked Cole at all because he was sharing Leicester's tight head shirt with Castro.

Let's not include a quality tight head because he doesn't play every game. Sarcasm by the way.

Look at it this way - Farrell might be seen as poor but he's still arguably better than the likes of Macleod,Myler,Lamb,Cipriani or do you want to see them lining up for England?

Hodgson is very tough competition.

You don't want player burnout if a player is playing virtually every game at club level then flogged in the internationals he'll be knackered.

Mate , lets hope that competition will drive him on and more importantly help him improve those areas where he is quite weak and Charlie is very strong. He could become a very impressive and complete FH if he succeeds...

mawhis wrote:

nathan wrote:

mawhis wrote:Players shouldn't be picked for England until they're starting for their clubs.

what about when those clubs have a rotation policy which we're starting to see more and more.

every club has a "First" XV that, when fit, starts in the biggest games, Heineken cup matches, important premiership games, etc. They are the players with the big game experience. If a player can't convince the coaches who work with him week in/week out that he's up to it, England should pass him over, in my opinion at least.

The whole points of a squad mentality is that you don't have a "first" XV. Leicester and Saracens rotate the most in the AP. That should be taken into consideration.

What do you call a big game? Are games vs Quins,Leicester and Exeter small?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:

mawhis wrote:Players shouldn't be picked for England until they're starting for their clubs.

England shouldn't have picked Cole at all because he was sharing Leicester's tight head shirt with Castro.

Let's not include a quality tight head because he doesn't play every game. Sarcasm by the way.

Look at it this way - Farrell might be seen as poor but he's still arguably better than the likes of Macleod,Myler,Lamb,Cipriani or do you want to see them lining up for England?

Hodgson is very tough competition.

You don't want player burnout if a player is playing virtually every game at club level then flogged in the internationals he'll be knackered.

Mate , lets hope that competition will drive him on and more importantly help him improve those areas where he is quite weak and Charlie is very strong. He could become a very impressive and complete FH if he succeeds...

Big if mate. Saracens look like a different beast in attack when Hodgson is running the show. Farrell has an awful lot to learn.

beshocked wrote:

mawhis wrote:

nathan wrote:

mawhis wrote:Players shouldn't be picked for England until they're starting for their clubs.

what about when those clubs have a rotation policy which we're starting to see more and more.

every club has a "First" XV that, when fit, starts in the biggest games, Heineken cup matches, important premiership games, etc. They are the players with the big game experience. If a player can't convince the coaches who work with him week in/week out that he's up to it, England should pass him over, in my opinion at least.

The whole points of a squad mentality is that you don't have a "first" XV. Leicester and Saracens rotate the most in the AP. That should be taken into consideration.

What do you call a big game? Are games vs Quins,Leicester and Exeter small?

There's still a clear set of first choice players at those clubs though. Flood is certainly first choice 10 over ford, Allen is first choice 12 over Bowden etc.

mawhis wrote:

beshocked wrote:

mawhis wrote:

nathan wrote:

mawhis wrote:Players shouldn't be picked for England until they're starting for their clubs.

what about when those clubs have a rotation policy which we're starting to see more and more.

every club has a "First" XV that, when fit, starts in the biggest games, Heineken cup matches, important premiership games, etc. They are the players with the big game experience. If a player can't convince the coaches who work with him week in/week out that he's up to it, England should pass him over, in my opinion at least.

The whole points of a squad mentality is that you don't have a "first" XV. Leicester and Saracens rotate the most in the AP. That should be taken into consideration.

What do you call a big game? Are games vs Quins,Leicester and Exeter small?

There's still a clear set of first choice players at those clubs though. Flood is certainly first choice 10 over ford, Allen is first choice 12 over Bowden etc.

Maybe in certain positions yes but in others no.

Castro or Cole at tighthead for Leicester? Not really an issue.

Wigglesworth or De Kock - not an issue for Saracens. They even flipped a coin for who would start the final! Backrow? Doesn't matter these days.

Wings - only Ashton is a definite. Vunipola or Gill at loosehead etc.

Big if mate. Saracens look like a different beast in attack when Hodgson is running the show. Farrell has an awful lot to learn..

I agree Beshocked, and this is one of the reasons most accept he shouldnt really be in the Senior squad at the moment...maybe the Saxons.

But time will tell.

HQ matt wrote:
oh and there is a lot of unfair criticism of young farrell on here, dont forget he has been to paris and won and played in a premiership winning side, thats a great CV for such a young man. he has limitations to his game and he does seem to be feeling the pressure of competing with hodgeson at sarries but i still think he is worth his place in the EPS.

I don't deny that Farrell has talent (I also agree that coordinating a Paris win is impressive at his age) and after Burns would be next in-line for the EPS in my book. My problem is simply that England are trying to play a free flowing, attacking style of rugby and Farrell's game at the moment doesn't suit that where as Burn's does.

If you look at the current EPS Flood is likely to start with Farrell on the bench, if Flood were to be injured Farrell would then start with whoever is called up - probably Burns - on the bench as Lancaster is a big one for squad loyalty etc. This is my problem though, were Flood to be injured we can't try and play attacking rugby with Farrell starting as we'd be smashed - as seen in SA.

I would much rather see a first choice of 10.Flood 21.Burns then if Flood were to be injured we could call up Farrell to the bench to add stability if Burns struggles. Also I think if you want to play free flowing rugby you have to at least get your best prospects for this in squad especially in positions we are struggling with - i.e. FH Burns, IC Twelvetrees!