England Squad for the AUTUMN INTERNATIONALS

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Forwards:
Mouritz Botha (Saracens)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Courtney Lawes. (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Tom Palmer (London Wasps)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs:
Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonathan Joseph (London Irish)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Can anyone explain to me why so many posters are picking Haskell and Wood at 6 ahead of Tom Johnson? Have they not been watching the prem and the Heino?

He's been very impressive this season. I think Lancaster will very possibly go with him to start....which wouldnt be a bad thing at all...

GeordieFalcon wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Can anyone explain to me why so many posters are picking Haskell and Wood at 6 ahead of Tom Johnson? Have they not been watching the prem and the Heino?

He's been very impressive this season. I think Lancaster will very possibly go with him to start....which wouldnt be a bad thing at all...

Very true. I think people write off Johnson because he's not been on the scene for that long. He plays for an unfashionable side who have been ruffling feathers. Bloody upstarts -coming in to the AP and staying here. They haven't just stayed either - they beaten quite a few of the top sides and qualified for the HC in 5th place. It's not standard procedure.

To be fair to Johnson though he hasn't done much wrong. I wouldn't mind him playing actually. Don't forget Haskell and Wood are 606v2 darlings.

I have to confess, I completely overlooked Johnson for some reason. I'd have no problem with him starting at 6 over the AIs. From what I've seen he's had an excellent season with Exeter so far, and his breakdown work on the summer tour was pretty damn good too. He's a bit different to the other 6s in the squad, in that he's very very fast, but also physical.

Its an interesting battle for that back row spot...especially 6 where its the only spot along with FB (and possibly SH) that we have quality options in depth.

Haskell v Wood v Croft (when fit) v Johnson v Fearns

This is one reason id love to see Haskell (and maybe Fearns) really move to 8 so we can get rid of Waldrom once and for all and give some proper competition to Morgan.

Toadfish wrote:

DOD wrote:Was looking at the squad and for a second what with the Tuilagi's and Vuniopola's , not to mind aBotha thrown in for good measure i thought it was the Pacific Islanders squad...

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My word, I though I'd walked into the royal variety show for a minute. Insult removed

Comment edited, toadfish, language and insults are not tolerated.

Looking at the straw poll, it seems that only a few are unhappy or think SL hasn't a clue what he's doing. Actually, after watching The Rugby Club last night, it seems that pundits from the home nations were generally satisfied with the selections of their respective DOR.

Given that he wasn't allowed to make changes on form, only for injuries, its difficult to see what else he could have done. The test will come in January, when he's allowed to drop and promote players on form (at least, if my current understanding of the eps system is correct! )

Person with funny name plays rugby shocker.

Well he was only allowed to do that but I think quite a few people feel that he has missed opportunities in some areas.

For the record for the umpteenth time, I have no confidence in Lancaster and his coaches to realise the incredible potential of the England Rugby team.
Step back and face the facts, barr Rowntree who is the scrum/forwards coach there is nothing to compare with the benchmark or Woodward, Robinson, Larder and Ashton.
I predict we beat Fiji only. My hope is that people will realise that Lancaster did a job after the previous disaster and is then offloaded before the tour to Argintina.
For once the rfu needs to appoint a serious coach from any of Baxter, Richards, Malinder or O'Shea. Personally I'd prefer Malinder though I believe O'Shea would be an excellent choice acceptable to all sides of the debate.

It seems to be a generally agreed theme that there isn't a HUGE amount wrong with selection, after all, it probably isn't as easy as we think it is to grab an uncapped and untried (at international level) player and shoe-horn him into he England squad. It remains to be seen if SL can improve the squad as DOR - finishing a pretty close second in the last 6N suggests that he did at least understand the task presented to him. He's probably on a hiding to nothing because if we were all brutally honest, its probally true that england will only beat Fiji, at which point, everybody will be calling for Lancaster to resign.

If it is really, really dire come December then they may be justified but it might be better to judge him on his selections prior to ext year's 6N and then on the 6N performance.

whats with the hate of Thomas the Tank?

I kinda like the chap and he has a surprising turn of speed and can pass

damage_13 wrote:whats with the hate of Thomas the Tank?I kinda like the chap and he has a surprising turn of speed and can pass

Nationalistic bigotry?

Jimpy wrote:

damage_13 wrote:whats with the hate of Thomas the Tank?I kinda like the chap and he has a surprising turn of speed and can pass

Nationalistic bigotry?

Not strictly true...just wonder how long National teams will exist the way its going...might aswell just become a world League...with transfer fees...Conrad has just signed a six figure deal to join Germany in the World League....they're developing a powerful squad blah blah blah

Baxter is an excellent club coach but I would be surprised if he was up to much as an international coach. He seems so much more of the day to day hands on type. Richards could be excellent but its still way too soon. Malinder or O'Shea would be fine but Lancaster took over at a difficult time and got the basics sorted very quickly. He has done, overall, a good job so far.

Don't think there is any point in revisiting that debate until post 6N. Chopping and changing managers for the sake of it is a guaranteed route to disaster.

Don't think there is any point in revisiting that debate until post 6N. Chopping and changing managers for the sake of it is a guaranteed route to disaster..

Absolutley

Does anyone know if any players have been called up to the saxons to replace haskell,mony,young's?

So with the latest injuries etc we "could" be looking like a starting 15 of this for Fiji...

1 Marler
2 Youngs
3 Cole
4 Palmer
5 Parling
6 Woods
7 Robshaw
8 Morgan

9 Care
10 Flood
11 Sharples
12 Barritt
13 Tuilagi
14 Ashton
15 Brown / Goode (Goode impressed me this weekend, though worryingly he did seem to be at 1st receiver more than Farrell our back up FH!)

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Can anyone explain to me why so many posters are picking Haskell and Wood at 6 ahead of Tom Johnson? Have they not been watching the prem and the Heino?

On form, not really, but Johnson for me is too lightweight at 6, ditto Wood. Haskell's form has been, sadly, very poor. But i've seen enough performances at 6/7 for England to think he has the quality at Test level.

I'm not normally a 'bulk is best' type guy, but after seeing our performances against SA, i think we desperately need some guys in the backrow who can stop them on the gainline and carry effectively. Johnson, for me, carries best in the wider channels, but in the tight isn't great.

Hood83 wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Can anyone explain to me why so many posters are picking Haskell and Wood at 6 ahead of Tom Johnson? Have they not been watching the prem and the Heino?

On form, not really, but Johnson for me is too lightweight at 6, ditto Wood. Haskell's form has been, sadly, very poor. But i've seen enough performances at 6/7 for England to think he has the quality at Test level.

I'm not normally a 'bulk is best' type guy, but after seeing our performances against SA, i think we desperately need some guys in the backrow who can stop them on the gainline and carry effectively. Johnson, for me, carries best in the wider channels, but in the tight isn't great.

Correct analysis.

Johnson can draw and pass which is more than some of our Test backs can do. While this in itself is mildly impressive we need more physical presence from our pack than he can give.

It might be different for him if all of our second row options werent so lightweight but they are.

I think it has to be Haskell.

or alterantively i have been pilloried by Geordie and Beshocked for naming IF fit Lawes at 6.

Ive had quite a lot to say about this on other threads...and this one...

However im thinking is it actually "bulk" we need...or power that we're missing.

The SA, NZ guy arent huge...but they hit rucks, and collisions like absolute tanks...whereas on the other side we seem to just meander in to them...

Hopefully the likes of Marler, Morgan, etc can bring their rampaging styles to the international level...hopefully the experience in SA will have made ALL the England squad wake up and realise just how powerful and intense the level they need to play at is...

Triangulation wrote:

Hood83 wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:Can anyone explain to me why so many posters are picking Haskell and Wood at 6 ahead of Tom Johnson? Have they not been watching the prem and the Heino?

On form, not really, but Johnson for me is too lightweight at 6, ditto Wood. Haskell's form has been, sadly, very poor. But i've seen enough performances at 6/7 for England to think he has the quality at Test level.

I'm not normally a 'bulk is best' type guy, but after seeing our performances against SA, i think we desperately need some guys in the backrow who can stop them on the gainline and carry effectively. Johnson, for me, carries best in the wider channels, but in the tight isn't great.

Correct analysis.

Johnson can draw and pass which is more than some of our Test backs can do. While this in itself is mildly impressive we need more physical presence from our pack than he can give.

It might be different for him if all of our second row options werent so lightweight but they are.

I think it has to be Haskell.

Have to disagree with you both here. Johnson is by some distance the form 6. He is also one of the more physical 6s as well. He may not 6'10" and 22 stone but the key for me is that his intensity is better than others and I feel his work in the tight is better than you're giving him credit for - I'm talking more about intangibles here, but Johnson does not deserve to lose his spot.

haskell was, it was widely agreed, one of our best players at the rwc. He might not be showing good form atm but you can bet the house his performances for England always draw 100% (maybe that needs to be more % with the brain than brawn, but I'd like to see what he's learnt).

also, I mentioned in the Lions thread that a player might well be 'on form' for club, but that won't necessarily translate to international form. Some people can't fit in, or play the higher tempo

For what it's worth (probably little because E=Mc2 and this only tells a part of the equation...

Tom Johnson 104kg
Phil Dowson 109kg
Thomas Waldrom 111kg
Chris Robshaw 110kg
Tom Croft 105 kg (6'6)
Tom Wood 109kg (6'5)
Courtney Lawes 111kg (6'7)

Ben Morgan 116kg (6'3)
Tom Palmer 116kg (6'7)
Botha 115kg (6'6)


I could not find Brand Haskell on the RFU site for some reason

Marler, Morgan, Haskell, Robshaw do damage as ball carriers. Lawes in other ways. Then Vunipola and Youngs off the bench (Paice to start) can add on.

Lets hope for positive fitness bulletins

You fancy Paice to start Triangulation?

Triangulation wrote:For what it's worth (probably little because E=Mc2 and this only tells a part of the equation...

Tom Johnson 104kg
Phil Dowson 109kg
Thomas Waldrom 111kg
Chris Robshaw 110kg
Tom Croft 105 kg (6'6)
Tom Wood 109kg (6'5)
Courtney Lawes 111kg (6'7)

Ben Morgan 116kg (6'3)
Tom Palmer 116kg (6'7)
Botha 115kg (6'6)


I could not find Brand Haskell on the RFU site for some reason

According to you lightweight Botha and Palmer are heavier than juggernaut Lawes.

I thought Waldrom and Morgan would be heavier.

I think the problem beshocked (probably what we agree on) is that some of these might weight in heavy...Botha etc at 115kg...but he plays like Lee Mears.....
Ie He doesnt use that weight like many of his counterparts in the SH does...and that is the main criticism of a few in this England squad at the moment.

When people say lightweight...they dont mean as in on the scales they mean by their physical performances...

You often see players from NZ / SA etc carrying 2 or three of our guys over that gainline...yet we currently seem unable to match that.

This is why we need Morgan, Marler, Robshaw...ie the guys with pace and power to start gettting than ball on the hoof and making the SH boys struggle to take us down....and why we are all complaining about our Second row options.

Triangulation wrote:Marler, Morgan, Haskell, Robshaw do damage as ball carriers. Lawes in other ways. Then Vunipola and Youngs off the bench (Paice to start) can add on.

Lets hope for positive fitness bulletins

Not really but if Youngs is not deemed reliable enough as a lineout thrower what choice do we have?

beshocked wrote:

Triangulation wrote:For what it's worth (probably little because E=Mc2 and this only tells a part of the equation...

Tom Johnson 104kg
Phil Dowson 109kg
Thomas Waldrom 111kg
Chris Robshaw 110kg
Tom Croft 105 kg (6'6)
Tom Wood 109kg (6'5)
Courtney Lawes 111kg (6'7)

Ben Morgan 116kg (6'3)
Tom Palmer 116kg (6'7)
Botha 115kg (6'6)


I could not find Brand Haskell on the RFU site for some reason

According to you lightweight Botha and Palmer are heavier than juggernaut Lawes.

I thought Waldrom and Morgan would be heavier.

Beshocked

Errrr. No. According to the RFU website.

And if you had read the bit in parenthesis you would have seen the point. It is not just weight that we need. It is force, power forward drive through the gainline.

In a nuthsell we have to win collisions and blind freddy can see it is not purely the biggest who win the collisions. You need to know how to use it and be able to apply force.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think the problem beshocked (probably what we agree on) is that some of these might weight in heavy...Botha etc at 115kg...but he plays like Lee Mears.....
Ie He doesnt use that weight like many of his counterparts in the SH does...and that is the main criticism of a few in this England squad at the moment.

When people say lightweight...they dont mean as in on the scales they mean by their physical performances...

You often see players from NZ / SA etc carrying 2 or three of our guys over that gainline...yet we currently seem unable to match that.

This is why we need Morgan, Marler, Robshaw...ie the guys with pace and power to start gettting than ball on the hoof and making the SH boys struggle to take us down....and why we are all complaining about our Second row options.

Thank you GF +1

bluestonevedder wrote:You fancy Paice to start Triangulation?

see above. Not really but were shoite out of luck and options thanks to the primacy of club rugby over Test Matches in this country.

Triangulation wrote:

Triangulation wrote:Marler, Morgan, Haskell, Robshaw do damage as ball carriers. Lawes in other ways. Then Vunipola and Youngs off the bench (Paice to start) can add on.

Lets hope for positive fitness bulletins

Not really but if Youngs is not deemed reliable enough as a lineout thrower what choice do we have?

True, although out of Paice and Youngs, I'd much rather see Youngs start. Against Gloucester at the weekend, his throwing was poor, but his throwing the last 30 mins or so when he was really under pressure was perfect. He can throw, but he just needs the consistency!

It was interesting in that the commentators were praising Parling for taking Youngs aside and calming him down after his poor throws. I think they work well together, and Parling's inclusion in the starting 15 could be good for Youngs if he were to start.

I think Youngs shows up much better than Paice around the park, especially at the breakdown and in defence, where he's a beast. He's still a raw talent, don't get me wrong, but hopefully he's being fast tracked in the england camp and spending hours everyday throwing!

bluestonevedder wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

Triangulation wrote:Marler, Morgan, Haskell, Robshaw do damage as ball carriers. Lawes in other ways. Then Vunipola and Youngs off the bench (Paice to start) can add on.

Lets hope for positive fitness bulletins

Not really but if Youngs is not deemed reliable enough as a lineout thrower what choice do we have?

True, although out of Paice and Youngs, I'd much rather see Youngs start. Against Gloucester at the weekend, his throwing was poor, but his throwing the last 30 mins or so when he was really under pressure was perfect. He can throw, but he just needs the consistency!

It was interesting in that the commentators were praising Parling for taking Youngs aside and calming him down after his poor throws. I think they work well together, and Parling's inclusion in the starting 15 could be good for Youngs if he were to start.

I think Youngs shows up much better than Paice around the park, especially at the breakdown and in defence, where he's a beast. He's still a raw talent, don't get me wrong, but hopefully he's being fast tracked in the england camp and spending hours everyday throwing!

I hope that you're right.

Apparently his throwing issues are down to a lack of flexibility.

Apparently his throwing issues are down to a lack of flexibility

Me too Triangulation, me too!

Where did you hear about the flexibility issue?

He's certainly an incredibly squat lad, physically, but that really helps his carrying. He's built a lot like Steffon Armitage, just less.....doughy.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Apparently his throwing issues are down to a lack of flexibility

I read this somewhere during the SA tour. I think it was an article in one of the online broadhsheets.

Nope found it. RFU website.

Hardy a former hooker himself has been working with him and said....

Youngs first had to work hard on his flexibility, but in parallel, the touchline can be a lonely place in a team game and keeping calm when you are just feet from the crowd is a singular challenge, as Hardy explained.

“I guess it took him 18 months to get the basics of throwing, he was incredibly inflexible when we started and there’s a fitness guy at Leicester Tigers called Crippsy [Dave Cripps] who I spent a lot of time with, getting Tom to get more flexible in his shoulders,” he said.

“Once that happened he had to learn how to develop his hands, but at his initial sessions he could not throw for more than 12 minutes without fatigue setting into his trapezius and we had to stop.

“We started off purely on the techniques of throwing, then we developed that to the physical aspects and his final finishing school stage is the emotional and psychological sides.

Well i can honestly hold my hand up and accept i had no idea so much went in to throwing.....emotional and psychological aspects?? I mean come on....really???

Whatever.

I hope that you will now never question my authoritiiiiiiiiiiiiiii on any rugby matter ever again!

I am very well informed ill have all of you know and unlike a lot of posters on here, I do not come on here and just make things up for the fun of it.

Good.

p.s i'ts nice to see the lack of leaks under the Lancaster regime although really is it REALLY necessary to wait until 5pm to get the injury bulletins on

half of our EPS

who have all been sacrificed for AP games.

God we must look silly to the rest of the rugby world injuring all of our players 2 weeks out from a test series of brutal instensity and huge importance.

We're the laughing stock.

I hope that you will now never question my authoritiiiiiiiiiiiiiii on any rugby matter ever again!

Its in my nature...i question everything until i have proof....

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I hope that you will now never question my authoritiiiiiiiiiiiiiii on any rugby matter ever again!

Its in my nature...i question everything until i have proof....

That is acceptable and accepted.

It is in my nature to not make unsubstantiated comments as to facts. It is also in my nature to voice my opinions and to argue with anyone who i disagree with.

Players released back to their clubs. Lawes and Hartley return for knee treatment and will be reassessed

http://www.rfu.com/news/2012/october/newsarticles/301012_lawes_hartley

Robshaw to retain captaincy.

Players Released:

Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers), Mike Brown (Harlequins), Phil Dowson (Northampton Saints), Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby), Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints), James Haskell (London Wasps), Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints), Jordan Turner-Hall (Harlequins), Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers).

Youngs, Hartley and Lawes we know are for injury treatment and Game time as far as Youngs goes. The others though could be more of an indication of playing preferences.

It looks like we could see a backrow of 6. T Wood 7. C Robshaw 8. T Waldrom for Fiji.

Why is Mike Brown being released back to Quins? Either means it's likely Goode will start vs Fiji at FB or it means he's picked up a knock and Quins want a look?

Also why Ben Morgan?

Looks like the guys retained will definitely be in the 23.

Honestly don't know why Morgan's being released. Waldrom hasn't even been starting at 8 for Tigers recently- he's been playing 7, and can't oust Crane from the starting 8 spot.

Returning Ben Youngs is a good move, for reasons that a lot of other posters have stated. He needs a good rest from International rugby to get fully healed.

Mike Brown returning is an odd choice.

Hopefully Hartley and Lawes will get good medical attention the rest of the week. Saints' medical team is pretty decent if I remember rightly? Or use the same Doctors as the EPS?

Goode looks like he'll be starting. I think Lancs is perpetrating his philosophy of loyalty and not dropping players from the shirt until they're injured or have had a shocker in it. Dissapointing frankly.

Maybe you're right Chjw131. But, at the same time, we never know what goes on behind closed doors. We have no idea how a player has trained during the sessions, or if they've taken a knock. It could be Goode's played out of skin this week in training, and Brown's not hit the same heights (not what I think, but it's a possibility!).

Chjw131 how is it disappointing to start Goode?