The Dew Drop Inn Virtual La Botticella Pub, Rome.

First topic message reminder :

Hello and welcome to the Virtual Rugby Pub, a place where you can come in for a sly beverage and discuss whatever's on your mind, or just eavesdrop on the regulars if you fancy a break from all the rugby chat.

The pub has made its way to the historical city of Rome, the owner Giiovanni, is a Canadian-Italian, and welcomes all after a great day of rugby.

The only rule in this pub is one of mutual respect for everyone in it, oh and no tampering with the pictures of Tawera Kerr-Barlow, Dane Coles, Aaron Jarvis, Samson Lee and Schalk Brits up on the wall. Erm, actually there is a second rule. No elephants, unless they're Effervescing - we can't be barring a Chiefs fan



Previous Pub:
https://www.606v2.com/t36353-the-dew-drop-inn-virtual-jackie-horner-tavern-near-kings-park-durban

Agree with everything Rava said.

MrsP wrote:You are giving them your First XV?????

They could select Ulster plus POC for the first game!

Ah Bless, poor little Ulster fan getting cocky cos her team is gettin a few extra players to carry water for Ireland... Most of them will be sent back to their province next week. Politics! Huh!

MrsP wrote:I'm sure CJ knows full well that rehydration and are not the same thing!

Might not care just now mind.

How's Gobby?

Im grand Missus P. Still Gobby... Gobby Stiles type poster. Go for the legs.

It has come as a bit of a shock I can tell you!

And, I am fully aware they are nearly all there to hold tackle bags. That's fine with me. Just please send the ones you are not going to use back to us.

I am with Rava too. In fact I said almost the same thing

MrsP wrote:



Look, the lad could be the best TH in the world and I'm not sure I'd be comfortable with this situation. I hope the guy goes really well and commits fully to Leinster and Ireland but I just don't think this is right.

Rava wrote:Hound, on the Bent affair haven't England, Wales and Scotland already been down the same road?
I think its a discrace that someone who hasn't set foot in this country and who hasn't played a game in the NH can be shoehorned into the Ireland squad. I don't care if he turns out to be the best TH in the world it isn't right and anyone who thinks it is is being hypocritical. I notice a lot of my countrymen lauding this. A few of them a something to say when Thomas Waldrom suddenly found a long lost granny recently.
You can bet your last dollar if Rob Herring or Sean Doyle had been brought into that squad there would have been uproar in D4.

WHO?

Markage. Finally got through game of thrones. Very enjoyable. Can't wait for the the third season.

Hey No.2, .

I can see the point, I really can. But surely the questions need to be asked of the IQ'd props in the Rabo first?

If they aren't good enough why aren't they trying harder?

I don't think this is likely to be a perpetual problem, it's a stop gap measure to stop the Ireland scrum getting pumped during the AI's, even the Aussie's would fancy their chances without this kind of bolstering.

PJHolybloke wrote:Hey No.2, .

I can see the point, I really can. But surely the questions need to be asked of the IQ'd props in the Rabo first?

If they aren't good enough why aren't they trying harder?

I don't think this is likely to be a perpetual problem, it's a stop gap measure to stop the Ireland scrum getting pumped during the AI's, even the Aussie's would fancy their chances without this kind of bolstering.

+ 1 and a

But PJ why is this guy (who we assume will also not be good enough to start for a province) be deemed worthy.

If he was a top player i could understand but i would rather Archer or Hagan

Rava wrote:Hound, on the Bent affair haven't England, Wales and Scotland already been down the same road?
I think its a discrace that someone who hasn't set foot in this country and who hasn't played a game in the NH can be shoehorned into the Ireland squad. I don't care if he turns out to be the best TH in the world it isn't right and anyone who thinks it is is being hypocritical. I notice a lot of my countrymen lauding this. A few of them a something to say when Thomas Waldrom suddenly found a long lost granny recently.
You can bet your last dollar if Rob Herring or Sean Doyle had been brought into that squad there would have been uproar in D4.

Rava - I don't think England have. Anyone who has played has either qualified through parentage or met the three year qualification period under IRB rules.

Generally you guys have the moral high ground on this one, and certain posters like to remind everyone of that.

I was annoyed enough at us including Stauss. if he applied for an Irish passprt they would tell him no way.

This Bent thing is just nonsense. Its the same logic that saw Peter Borlase signed on a Project Player schene.

Just finished a 14 hour day. Rebuilt 20 CICS online systems for a bank. Its been a while. Was tricky. All working swimmingly now. Ive still got it. Whatever it is.

Knackerred now. That was my Marathon.

Nite regs. Love you looong time.

red_stag wrote:But PJ why is this guy (who we assume will also not be good enough to start for a province) be deemed worthy.

If he was a top player i could understand but i would rather Archer or Hagan

To wake the feckers up who have been strolling around for the last couple of years waiting their turn in the line Staggy, I absolutely see where you all have the problem with this kind of call-up, I've had so many similar issues previously with the England squad, and there's still a few in there now I'd rather be out, but making moves like this are coaching statements.

I'm pretty sure this is a boot up the arse move, I would hope that the IQ'd players who've been in and out for the provinces over the last couple of years will start to look further afield when it comes down to their competition. I'm fairly certain some players have been thinking, "well, I've only got to get a bit better than A to be in the squad, and if B gets injured I'm in for a cap." I can't see any other reason for the stagnant mediocrity that's been around the Ireland front row for the last few years.

A sprat to catch a mackerel, if you like, and I'd say it's having the desired effect so far.

Ah Bless. Poor Aul codger working a 14 hour day!

Really dont see that as the issue. I doubt this will suddenly make our young Irish props better than Afoa or Botha.

We have always seeb our best results in trusting in form props and allowong them to have an off game at the top level - i.e. Healy Ross and in the summer we saw amazing performance from Fitzaptrick.

I dont think this is done as a motivating tactic.

I agree. I really don't think lack of effort is the issue. I have always thought props especially really focus on technique and lack of performance is related to lack of inherant ability rather than effort.

They can only be as good as they can be.

I don't see how bringing someone in straight off a plane can encourage any of them to try harder.

Coach them!

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:

Rava wrote:Hound, on the Bent affair haven't England, Wales and Scotland already been down the same road?
I think its a discrace that someone who hasn't set foot in this country and who hasn't played a game in the NH can be shoehorned into the Ireland squad. I don't care if he turns out to be the best TH in the world it isn't right and anyone who thinks it is is being hypocritical. I notice a lot of my countrymen lauding this. A few of them a something to say when Thomas Waldrom suddenly found a long lost granny recently.
You can bet your last dollar if Rob Herring or Sean Doyle had been brought into that squad there would have been uproar in D4.

Rava - I don't think England have. Anyone who has played has either qualified through parentage or met the three year qualification period under IRB rules.

Generally you guys have the moral high ground on this one, and certain posters like to remind everyone of that.

Hound, I mentioned Thomas Waldrom and I know he has a link and apparently so does this guy Bent. Correct me if I'm wrong but a lot of your countrymen questioned the inclusion of Waldrom in the Elete squad when he was first called in.
I don't think it is right is what I'm saying. I don't get your quote about having the moral high ground. I think there is sufficient space on the high ground for supporters of all countries when the siuation arises.

PJ I don't think any of our current TH's could be accused of not "trying hard enough". There is a big difference between effort put in and ability. I agree with Stag that Archer or Hagan should have been included. Some motivation for those guys? Play each week and do your best and then sit back and watch someone who hasn't even played a game in the country take a place in the squad. I know I wouldn't be happy.

Look, if the guy comes in and he plays well for Leinster and proves himself worthy of that squad place then fair enough. I'll accept that. What I can't accept is someone who, according to Kiwi, hasn't really set the world alight in the SH stepping off a plane and into an International setup.

There are two big issues with regards to our props up to now:

- Leinster and Ulster were allowed to sign foreign prop after foreign prop.

- Munster assumed that Tony Buckley would be good enough to replace John Hayes (who they clung to for that bit too long)

Whatever the reasons we are in this mess we wont solve it with Tom Court "doing a job" at tighthead and we definitely will not solve it by making our props feel devalued as they have in the case of Bent.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:Great effort CJ.

Evening pubpickers.

Just posted on the Ireland squad thread on SA's injury list. It's a lengthy list and full of very significant players.

Biltong

So what's the deal with this new TH prop Ireland have brought in from Taranaki? If he qualifies, he qualifies, fair enough. But I think England, Wales and Scotland would get some fearful flak if they pulled off a stunt like that.

It seems to have slipped under the radar of the usual 606 bickering brigade.

i am still digesting Richard Strauss mate.

Rava wrote:Look, if the guy comes in and he plays well for Leinster and proves himself worthy of that squad place then fair enough. I'll accept that. What I can't accept is someone who, according to Kiwi, hasn't really set the world alight in the SH stepping off a plane and into an International setup.

+1

Its just another example of our inferiority complex we have towards the SH.

"Oh he's a Kiwi prop. He MUST be better than our props (even though he has never played for any of our teams".

Sure we did exactly the same thing with Tom Court in 2006. Signed for Ulster, played in the Churchill Cup with Ireland A. I don't even know if he set foot on Irish soil in any official capacity before he got that Ireland A cap. He's fully committed to Ireland since then. If Bent does the same people will forget soon enough.

I think it's hard to say I have a problem with Bent when I don't have a problem with Tom Court or Isaac Boss. He qualifies in exactly the same way. I've already made my peace with those guys so hard to get animated about this one. The likes of Court and Boss care a lot more about playing for Ireland than a few natives over recent years, which is why I have zero problem supporting them in their endeavours to do so. Whether or not I accept Bent depends on whether he emulates their example.

I do have a problem with the eligibility rules in general, I think they DEFINITELY need looked at. I'm not going get annoyed about an individual case and I hope this Bent move works out for all parties because it is perfectly legal. If Bent pulls on the green jersey I'll be cheering for him. But I think the fact that a nation can identify a player in a problem position with a tenuous familial link, get him signed to one of their pro teams and fly him straight into a national training camp further illustrates that the rules need to be seriously reviewed.

Time for the IRB to act (fat chance).

Notch,

I dont have an issue with Bents eligability.

I have a problem with the way he is being inducted into the Irish team, what it says about our teams attitude and its effect on other young Irish props at a time we need them to develop and play with confidence.

What are they going to learn so, so far out of their depth? I think we should actually be trying to offload these guys to the English championship where they can get gametime. They are caught in a catch 22.

Not good enough to be relied on as frontline players for a Province. Not going to get enough gametime at their province to ever grow into that role. We need to be getting them loan deals in England or France.

I'm not happy if Bent isn't better than the other options, but if he is better this is a no-brainer.

In terms of the effect on these guys... none of them have been able to nail down a provincial spot of any description. None of them are particularly good at the basics of their position in terms of scrummaging.

I can't get animated about it because I don't see how they can be looking at Bent and thinking "I've done enough to earn the spot he's taking.". They are all just squad members at their provinces...

PJHolybloke wrote:

I think the Bent issue is a doddle to be fair, in the eyes of the coaching set-up he's a better prop than the others available for Ireland, no reason why he can't play and no reason why he shouldn't.

I didn't like Hape or Flutey playing for England as they'd represented NZ and the NZ Maori at senior level, I find it hard to see how THEY could then go on to represent England, in situations like that I think the questions have to be asked of the individuals as opposed to the system.

Where Bent's concerned I think the questions have to be asked of the other IQ props, I can't see them getting worse because of some extra competition, maybe they should have improved more before Bent even became an issue?

+ 10 million

Notch wrote:They are all just squad members at their provinces...

And he is not even a squad member for a Super 15 franchise. He has done nothing to suggest he is better.

He has never played for any Irish team and has been brought in prematurely to the senior international team.

This is not like Tom Court getting a look in with the A team. He is 2nd choice tight head playing a bit of ITM cup. We have guts who have Heineken Cup rugby to their name.

Notch wrote:In terms of the effect on these guys... none of them have been able to nail down a provincial spot of any description. None of them are particularly good at the basics of their position in terms of scrummaging.

I can't get animated about it because I don't see how they can be looking at Bent and thinking "I've done enough to earn the spot he's taking.". They are all just squad members at their provinces...

+ another 10 million

Rava - the 'moral high ground' comment was meant to be an ackowledgement that Ireland, probably more than any rugby nation, has looked to play home grown players.

Every other one of the 6N countries has fielded players that their own fans have questioned, in terms of deserving to wear the shirt.

Where to start with Italy and Argentina on that one.

So you have selected a stop gap IQ qualified player. No problem - he's qualified to play. OK, the guy has no experience of playing in Ireland, but he has experienced playing in an excellent rugby environment (NZ).

While it may not be palatable to some, I would let the rest of the world worry about it.

The real issue is for Ireland to identify, and bring on, guys who can fill the 3 jersey at international level.

red_stag wrote:
And he is not even a squad member for a Super 15 franchise. He has done nothing to suggest he is better.

Like I said, if he isn't any better I'm not happy about it at all and if he is better then I'm perfectly happy. I have never seen him play before so I can't commit either way. If he's bad then fair dues, you're right. Whereas if he's good its hats off to Greg Feek.

Just have to wait and see.

Is that sufficient experience.

I am very much in the once bitten twice shy camp.

We signed a very very similar player not so long ago.

Foreign prop, mainly a ITM cup level player, a handful of games in the Super 14 but came very highly rated from all the coaches and was approached directly by the IRFU with the intention of him representing Ireland.

He was talking about playing internationally before he even arrived in Ireland. Long story short he made 7 appeances in his first year, did something similar in his 2nd year and we sent him off to Connacht (where he still could not establish himself).

History repeats itself. Let this ITM standard player prove himself before we cheapen our international shirt.

Notch wrote:In terms of the effect on these guys... none of them have been able to nail down a provincial spot of any description. None of them are particularly good at the basics of their position in terms of scrummaging.

I can't get animated about it because I don't see how they can be looking at Bent and thinking "I've done enough to earn the spot he's taking.". They are all just squad members at their provinces...

And you are saying that Bent has earned the spot? You've failed to convince me.

Are you talking about Tom Court at tight head?

Greg Feek coaches the leinster and Irish scrums, so he's better placed than anyone to know whether this guy brings anything to the table.

If he thinks this guy is better than the options we have then that's good enough for me.

Rodders,

If we all just blindly took that option 606 would not exist.

Declan Kidney coaches the Irish team, so he's better placed than anyone to know what Ronan O'Gara brings to the table. If he thinks he is better than Madigan/Keatley/Jackson is that good enough too?

Nonsense!

Rodders, I don't doubt Feeks ability (well after our Summer Tour in NZ I should) but that is not the reason I am against this call up. As I said previously if this guy comes in and proves himself then fair enough.

red_stag wrote:Is that sufficient experience.

I am very much in the once bitten twice shy camp.

We signed a very very similar player not so long ago.

Foreign prop, mainly a ITM cup level player, a handful of games in the Super 14 but came very highly rated from all the coaches and was approached directly by the IRFU with the intention of him representing Ireland.

He was talking about playing internationally before he even arrived in Ireland. Long story short he made 7 appeances in his first year, did something similar in his 2nd year and we sent him off to Connacht (where he still could not establish himself).

History repeats itself. Let this ITM standard player prove himself before we cheapen our international shirt.

Stag - I would put him (Bent) in front of Paul O' Connell, Drico and Ferris, and have them tell him what it means to wear the green of Ireland.

They will know if he's up to it.

But it seems a decision has been made. It will be interesting to see how the regular squad members react to this.

Anyhow, I'm off for zzzzs

G' night.

Look guys its like this. This guy is Irish qualified and is a TH.

On the basis that we don't have many options beyond Ross and Fitzpatrick then he is worth looking at.

In terms of this has he earned it stuff, well I don't know because I haven't seen him play, but Greg Feek who seems to know what he's talking about with regards scrummaging thinks hes decent.

I'd also argue that no other Irish TH other than Ross has earned anything either. They've been selected because they are the only available options, same as this guy.

Standing him in front of those guys won't prove his is good enough. He might be passionate enough but so was Tony Buckley.

Rodders,

"Its like this"

This is the same horsepoop nonsense that had Peter Borlase talking about representing Ireland before he got on the plane.

This continued notion that we should just forget about developing Irish props and bring in journeymen to patch things up.

3 years ago Cian Healy, Mike Ross and Declan Fitzpatrick were all uncapped. Personally I think all 3 are good enough.

Look its clear we wont agree on this. But I think this is a real disgrace.

As Rava said if he came in and was performing ok then yea. But as it stands I think this is a bad bad move by the IRFU.

Hound_of_Harrow wrote:
But it seems a decision has been made. It will be interesting to see how the regular squad members react to this.

I'd imagine everyone from positions 8 through to 15 will be delighted if it means they have a decent scrum platform to play off.....

rodders wrote:

I'd also argue that no other Irish TH other than Ross has earned anything either. They've been selected because they are the only available options, same as this guy.

Sorry!! Tell that to Declan Fitzpatrick. I'd say his performances in last years HC and the Summer tour has definitely earned him his place.

Rava wrote:

rodders wrote:

I'd also argue that no other Irish TH other than Ross has earned anything either. They've been selected because they are the only available options, same as this guy.

Sorry!! Tell that to Declan Fitzpatrick. I'd say his performances in last years HC and the Summer tour has definitely earned him his place.

Exactly. We've seen Dave Kilcoyne picked on form for this squad. We saw Cian Healy and Mike Ross come in too. We saw Tom Court get in on form.

I think its a logical move by the IRFU stag. There is absolutely nothing to loose and everything to gain.

He comes in and is pants, its as you were.... he performs we have another TH option.

The worst thing the IRFU could do is nothing and then he might change his mind about representing us. Get him capped now and tie him to Ireland.

BTW on a lighter note:

Had a hilarious conversation with a primary school teacher pal of mine.

He teaches 8 year olds in a multi ethnic school. A little girl from Africa was very upset last week. She said that a boy in the class called her a monkey.

He was thinking "jaysus have to deal with this shoite". He had a chat with the kids and apparently the jibe had nothing to do with skin colour and all to do with the fact she said bananas were her favouite food. Neither of the kids were actually aware monkey had racist undertones.

The innocence of kids.

Another one maybe two for Paris Stag. 6 or 7 now.

Can you email me an updated quote for 6 or 7 please, ta.

I wonder if this guy had been a back rower or a winger would you fellas have been so accommodating?

Anyway as Stag says we won't agree on it so I'm off to bed.

Nite all.

Glas, thats great to hear but Im gonna have to completely revisit that and check availabiltiy all over again. It was genuinely almost half a year ago when I checked price and availability.

Rava wrote:

rodders wrote:

I'd also argue that no other Irish TH other than Ross has earned anything either. They've been selected because they are the only available options, same as this guy.

Sorry!! Tell that to Declan Fitzpatrick. I'd say his performances in last years HC and the Summer tour has definitely earned him his place.

No I agree he was outstanding in those games but outside of that what has he done? Not a lot because he is rarely fit. Its not like he's performing week in week out at a high standard.

If anything Fitzpatrick backs up my point. If there were other good props around he wouldn't get a look in. He is selected by default because he is Irish and he can scrummage. The fact that he rarely plays is neither here nor there to the selectors.