Leinster in talks with a top notch 2nd row?

SecretFly wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

What Connacht players have Ulster headhunted?

Forgive me, Don... I only read that bit of your post. I'll read the rest of it when I get a moment but that was the bit that interested me for now.

That - was - a - generalisation.

Meaning, Connacht is seen as the poor cousin who has players taken away from it off and on by the other Provinces. No, my area of expertise is NOT the transfer market. I don't have a whole lot of interest in who goes where and when and how, or how much was paid for him. That's a sub-love category in rugby...but not mine.

A generalisation - to make a point. It happens.

Don Alfonso wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

What Connacht players have Ulster headhunted?

Forgive me, Don... I only read that bit of your post. I'll read the rest of it when I get a moment but that was the bit that interested me for now.

That - was - a - generalisation.

Meaning, Connacht is seen as the poor cousin who has players taken away from it off and on by the other Provinces. No, my area of expertise is NOT the transfer market. I don't have a whole lot of interest in who goes where and when and how, or how much was paid for him. That's a sub-love category in rugby...but not mine.

A generalisation - to make a point. It happens.

Fair enough. A generalisation. Or, if you like, an inaccuracy.

My point is - Ulster don't need to do it. Why do Munster and Leinster, both of whom have been much more successful in recent times, and who should find it very easy to attract IQ interest from overseas?

You don't have an intricate interest in the transfer market, fair enough. But you're here ommenting on it, so expect to get caled on flimsy logic or being wrong.

To make my point, I have to point out you're wrong. It happens.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

clivemcl wrote:How will Connacht ever be anything other than a feeder team?

How long before the other provinces decide they want Henshaw, Marmion, McSharry, O'Halloran.

If any of these guys finish their careers at Connacht I'll eat me hat.


(Can we get a hat eating emoticon? It comes up a lot)

Guys this is Mike's decision. He wanted to leave Connacht, it was his own choice. If he didn't join Leinster he would have joined an English club. We shouldn't force a player to stay with a province.

Connacht are still attracting good players. Last season they got Nathan White and they are in talks with a few Leinster players. They also have some good young options such as Mick Kearney and Andrew Browne who were both immense against Biarritz. Along with Naopu and Swifty, they still have good options in the 2nd row.

What Leinster lads are they in talks with LF4L?

SecretFly wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

What Connacht players have Ulster headhunted?

Forgive me, Don... I only read that bit of your post. I'll read the rest of it when I get a moment but that was the bit that interested me for now.

That - was - a - generalisation.

Meaning, Connacht is seen as the poor cousin who has players taken away from it off and on by the other Provinces. No, my area of expertise is NOT the transfer market. I don't have a whole lot of interest in who goes where and when and how, or how much was paid for him. That's a sub-love category in rugby...but not mine.

A generalisation - to make a point. It happens.

Fair enough. A generalisation. Or, if you like, an inaccuracy.

My point is - Ulster don't need to do it. Why do Munster and Leinster, both of whom have been much more successful in recent times, and who should find it very easy to attract IQ interest from overseas?

You don't have an intricate interest in the transfer market, fair enough. But you're here ommenting on it, so expect to get caled on flimsy logic or being wrong.

To make my point, I have to point out you're wrong. It happens.

Good man. I'm dancing on ratty hot coals all morning. I'm getting used to it. I'll put it down to the Tensions Before Christmas.

I can give it and thankfully I can take it - fire ahead

But maybe you could have more 'accurately' picked up the actual theme of my initial post - which had as its central point that Connacht was both victim and benefactor of Leinster's aggressive 'steal' policy, as judged by some in the media and amongst some fans of the sport.

If I'm wrong in the detail of Provincial transfers then I'm wrong - you won't be the first one to have found me out on one of rugby's sub-love categories. But I'll continue to see 'wrongness' in the mis-directed 'offence' taken, and in the suceeding prominently inaccurate emphasis on the 'Ulster' connection to my initial post - which wasn't there in the original at all.

I actually have a point to make on your post/query though (the retort one ) but again - I'll get back to you on that one a little later.

neilthom7 wrote:I think this business of giving Connacht players is a red herring for all the provinces Ulster, Munster and Leinster never give Connacht a first team player. They give them players who need to be improved or are young and need experience. Connacht do all the work of getting these guys better then the 'big' provinces go and take them away again. Connacht get limited rewards with these players.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Connacht have nine former Leinster or Leinster [and Ireland] U20s in their senior squad: Matt Healy, Kyle Tonetti, Dave McSharry, Paul O'Donohoe, Davey Moore, Mick Kearney, Dave Gannon, Jason Harris-Wright and Nathan White.

We do help Connacht out aswell. We aren't all bad.

SecretFly wrote:You dress up 'not being offended' so well Don... now if only I believed you ...we'd be halfway there to a belated love-in .

Now to the actual answer to the rest of that thorny post that I'm told wasn't 'thorny' at all. Feel free not to read on though as I know how life can be in the White Rabbit world of 'no time to delay'.

So you initially warn me off trying to justify Leinster's talent-plucking as harsh reality driven by necessity? I need no warning as I never made that point. I stated a fact. The fact is that Ulster might choose to weaken a foreign side or sides by dragging in IQ players. Leinster have done the same but the taunt that they don't need to take from another Irish team is obsolete, as it's what they sometimes do - their free choice, added to the choice of many of the player's themselves, added to the fact that many Connacht players play out of their skins in the very hope that certain Irish Provinces (that shall now remain nameless in case of inaccurate reporting) might come calling and offer them more of a European profile and a better odds platform for entering the International team. That's the facts.

Whether it's wrong or right, whether I'm defending them or not, is a pointless debate. The truth is it has happened in the past, it will happen again AND that Connacht in the HEC comes courtesy of Leinster - two years running. This year might very well be Ulster's time to give them the berth.

But to the main point then. If someone here thinks I'd ever suggest that Irish players - (no, not IQ players, genuine Irish players who were born here, played all their youth rugby here, have played their Provincial rugby here, and have always dreamed that maybe, just maybe, their career might give them a shot at playing in the HEC or more importantly for their country) - if someone here thinks I'd suggest that whipping up those players between Irish Provinces, or even whipping from Connacht in particular, is a bad thing - or a less good thing than chasing down those prospective players from overseas like Ulster allegedly prefer to do, then I probably need to publish my principles more often.

Choosing Irish players who have operated their whole lives in Ireland is infinitely more attractive to me than doing the globetrotting search for Irish grannies, or indeed taking back Irish qualified players from England. I wouldn't defend my position at all, I'd recommend it

I'd also recommend that Connacht selectively 'steals' from Leinster if the tides turns on fortunes through the decades, as they could very well do. Irish rugby is the key for me - not Provincial inter-fighting. The growth of Irish rugby overall - and THAT is exactly what is happening, and Connacht is benefitting from that growth despite what the naysayers say about it forever being the fall guy. To me, in practice, it continues to grow as it allegedly forever falls. Four strong Provinces, whipping choice players from each other - that's an ideal, not a guilty secret.

Don Alfonso wrote:

SecretFly wrote:You dress up 'not being offended' so well Don... now if only I believed you ...we'd be halfway there to a belated love-in .

Now to the actual answer to the rest of that thorny post that I'm told wasn't 'thorny' at all. Feel free not to read on though as I know how life can be in the White Rabbit world of 'no time to delay'.

So you initially warn me off trying to justify Leinster's talent-plucking as harsh reality driven by necessity? I need no warning as I never made that point. I stated a fact. The fact is that Ulster might choose to weaken a foreign side or sides by dragging in IQ players. Leinster have done the same but the taunt that they don't need to take from another Irish team is obsolete, as it's what they sometimes do - their free choice, added to the choice of many of the player's themselves, added to the fact that many Connacht players play out of their skins in the very hope that certain Irish Provinces (that shall now remain nameless in case of inaccurate reporting) might come calling and offer them more of a European profile and a better odds platform for entering the International team. That's the facts.

Whether it's wrong or right, whether I'm defending them or not, is a pointless debate. The truth is it has happened in the past, it will happen again AND that Connacht in the HEC comes courtesy of Leinster - two years running. This year might very well be Ulster's time to give them the berth.

But to the main point then. If someone here thinks I'd ever suggest that Irish players - (no, not IQ players, genuine Irish players who were born here, played all their youth rugby here, have played their Provincial rugby here, and have always dreamed that maybe, just maybe, their career might give them a shot at playing in the HEC or more importantly for their country) - if someone here thinks I'd suggest that whipping up those players between Irish Provinces, or even whipping from Connacht in particular, is a bad thing - or a less good thing than chasing down those prospective players from overseas like Ulster allegedly prefer to do, then I probably need to publish my principles more often.

Choosing Irish players who have operated their whole lives in Ireland is infinitely more attractive to me than doing the globetrotting search for Irish grannies, or indeed taking back Irish qualified players from England. I wouldn't defend my position at all, I'd recommend it

I'd also recommend that Connacht selectively 'steals' from Leinster if the tides turns on fortunes through the decades, as they could very well do. Irish rugby is the key for me - not Provincial inter-fighting. The growth of Irish rugby overall - and THAT is exactly what is happening, and Connacht is benefitting from that growth despite what the naysayers say about it forever being the fall guy. To me, in practice, it continues to grow as it allegedly forever falls. Four strong Provinces, whipping choice players from each other - that's an ideal, not a guilty secret.

Fair enough. I disagree on quite a bit of that.

I rarely accept "That's just how it is" as a valid justification for anything, including Leinster "taking from another Irish team" (your words). You do. Fine.

You'd rather have a weaker Connacht if it meant that less players at provinces were part of the Irish diaspora, and more were "proper" (my word) Irish. Fine.

I don't understand how Mike McCarthy leaving for Leinster and weakening Connacht adds to the growth of Irish rugby.

Don Alfonso wrote:But the same couldn't happen with Leinster? Younger locks get gametime? Or wouldn't it be better if one of Kearney or Browne moved to Leinster?

Also, it's a bit disingenuous to say "it's what's best for Ireland". Tthe IMPORTANT factor is - the reason it's happening is - it's best for Leinster. And McCarthy, as far as he's concerned.

But if it does have any benefical effects for Irish rugby generally (which I'm not convinced it will), they would be entirely coincidental. Let's not kid ourselves here.

Don Alfonso wrote:Connacht are losing their best, most consistent player. If Browne or Kearney had gone, that would not be the case.


Agree 100% with your last point.

No-one, in my humble opinion, has done anything "wrong". As I wrote above, Leinster are being painted as pantomime villains in a ludicrous way.

I just think that this will weaken Connacht more than it will strengthen Leinster, and as a result, weaken Irish rugby a little bit.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:I think this business of giving Connacht players is a red herring for all the provinces Ulster, Munster and Leinster never give Connacht a first team player. They give them players who need to be improved or are young and need experience. Connacht do all the work of getting these guys better then the 'big' provinces go and take them away again. Connacht get limited rewards with these players.

Fair enough. I do think we have made a mistake by taking him away from Connacht but remember it is his decision.

neilthom7 wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:I think this business of giving Connacht players is a red herring for all the provinces Ulster, Munster and Leinster never give Connacht a first team player. They give them players who need to be improved or are young and need experience. Connacht do all the work of getting these guys better then the 'big' provinces go and take them away again. Connacht get limited rewards with these players.

Fair enough. I do think we have made a mistake by taking him away from Connacht but remember it is his decision.

Oh I absolutely agree, he will be brilliant for Leinster they need a Lock and he is a quality player he will do well there. It's down to players too Carr should never have moved, one look at Leinsters backline and he should have known that his gametime would be severely limited.
Don't worry though Connacht if you need a player I am available and cheap and wont leave

SecretFly wrote:I understand your views Don. I know I don't always have conventional ones, so I'm used to people coming back at me. No problem with you reading into what I say more what you think I'm saying rather than what I was saying. Semantics perhaps.

Irish rugby is a long term venture. Not a season or five seasons or even ten seasons. It's long term. It has been since I began watching back in the early 70s as a child and continues to be, running into this century. It's long term. And I easily say it is growing. I easily say Connacht is part of that growth. The growth does not preclude the followers/supporters - growth is actually probably mostly defined by followers.

Connacht have been in HEC now for two straight years. That in no way weakens a side, either in performance ability or in sense of identity or pride. Connacht have and will continue to gain much from having actually been there - playing at the top -, rather than being continuously patronised by some outsiders who constantly suggest that actually Connacht would be better off playing in the Amlin, where they and their supporters might actually have a chance of winning something, bless 'em

Bless 'em, my a**. Drop them in there - push them, make them sweat, show them the tempo of HEC, teach them the hard learned lessons. To suggest Connacht's presence in the HEC for the last few years, and hopefully next year too, doesn't strengthen Connacht rugby on the whole or doesn't add to the growth of Irish rugby.... well, I just couldn't buy that argument, Don - ever.

As for the Irish diaspora - the Irish diaspora (in my opinion - it's always only my opinion) is an excuse for tolerating mediocrity in our own Provinces, both in terms of what we ask of our first teamers and in what we expect through schools, through clubs rugby, through Provincial academies, through to Provincial rugby itself. If we think it a richer world to go seek players outside rather than grow rugby internally then that again is another choice on principle - one I personally wouldn't agree with it either, in the slightest.

Yes, there will be times we desperately need the diaspora (Bent being the newest cog in that wheel) but to claim greater purity in the idea of including the diaspora than in giving home-grown talent the coaching, fitness, nutrition and medical back-up to produce the goods - and the chance -, that too would be a philosophy I wouldn't ever agree with.

I wouldn't make excuses for championing players who have given all their time and energies - and dedication and dreams - to Irish rugby, be it club, Provincial or International. I'd just simply and openly champion them, without guilt.

Irish rugby growing from within, with confidence in its systems, whilst perfecting its systems, whilst exchanging players between them as needs must and only calling on the outside world when absolutely necessary - that's my ideal. That's not saying our Provincial teams should be exclusively Irish, that's not saying Irish players shouldn't have the rights and freedoms to choose for themselves to go off to England or elsewhere for their rugby careers. But it's what we do here to accentuate the skills and talents of home-grown players that will define how much we grow and how well we sustain it. If we can't produce our own players, in all positions, well then that's not really growth to me at all. It's bluff.

But as you say, we'll differ on most or all that most likely. Cést le vie. Ok...now I'm finished on 606 for the day - the White rabbit in me has things to do! Thanks be to God! says Don

red_stag wrote:Ian Nagle to LeinsterConnacht looks the most likely bet. Hasn't been offered a new deal with Munster and looks like he has fallen behind Dave Foley and Billy Holland in the pecking order.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:If we sign Bekker (which is unlikely) what about letting Roux go to Connacht? He would be a good replacement for McCarthy.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Rumours are that Damien Browne could be heading West. I would like us to hang onto him especially if Toner isn't offered a new contract.