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Leinster in talks with a top notch 2nd row?

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Don Alfonso
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Mon 29 Oct 2012, 6:41 pm

First topic message reminder :

Just seen this on the Leinsterfans forum. "There are serious talks going on with Top Notch second row. Obviously I cant say who,but hopefully we can get this guy across the line..."

The guy that posted this is supposed to be an ultra reliable source. Any thoughts on who it could be?

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Post by Don Alfonso Wed 12 Dec 2012, 1:45 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:

What Connacht players have Ulster headhunted?


Forgive me, Don... I only read that bit of your post. I'll read the rest of it when I get a moment but that was the bit that interested me for now.

That - was - a - generalisation.

Meaning, Connacht is seen as the poor cousin who has players taken away from it off and on by the other Provinces. No, my area of expertise is NOT the transfer market. I don't have a whole lot of interest in who goes where and when and how, or how much was paid for him. That's a sub-love category in rugby...but not mine.

A generalisation - to make a point. It happens.

Fair enough. A generalisation. Or, if you like, an inaccuracy.

My point is - Ulster don't need to do it. Why do Munster and Leinster, both of whom have been much more successful in recent times, and who should find it very easy to attract IQ interest from overseas?

You don't have an intricate interest in the transfer market, fair enough. But you're here ommenting on it, so expect to get caled on flimsy logic or being wrong.

To make my point, I have to point out you're wrong. It happens.

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Post by Manky-Flanker Wed 12 Dec 2012, 1:52 pm

Hamilton?

Rumour is he's leaving Gloucester for an undisclosed French club. Could turn out to be a certain Irish club instead, who knows.. guinness


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Post by neilthom7 Wed 12 Dec 2012, 2:01 pm

well it turned out to be a mistake for Hagan and Carr so maybe they should of thought where they were going first as for McCarthy he will make Leinster stronger because if they have one issue second rows could well be it. Pity for Connacht though they keep losing big players.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 12 Dec 2012, 2:09 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:

What Connacht players have Ulster headhunted?


Forgive me, Don... I only read that bit of your post. I'll read the rest of it when I get a moment but that was the bit that interested me for now.

That - was - a - generalisation.

Meaning, Connacht is seen as the poor cousin who has players taken away from it off and on by the other Provinces. No, my area of expertise is NOT the transfer market. I don't have a whole lot of interest in who goes where and when and how, or how much was paid for him. That's a sub-love category in rugby...but not mine.

A generalisation - to make a point. It happens.

Fair enough. A generalisation. Or, if you like, an inaccuracy.

My point is - Ulster don't need to do it. Why do Munster and Leinster, both of whom have been much more successful in recent times, and who should find it very easy to attract IQ interest from overseas?

You don't have an intricate interest in the transfer market, fair enough. But you're here ommenting on it, so expect to get caled on flimsy logic or being wrong.

To make my point, I have to point out you're wrong. It happens.

Good man. I'm dancing on ratty hot coals all morning. I'm getting used to it. I'll put it down to the Tensions Before Christmas.

I can give it and thankfully I can take it - fire ahead Wink

But maybe you could have more 'accurately' picked up the actual theme of my initial post - which had as its central point that Connacht was both victim and benefactor of Leinster's aggressive 'steal' policy, as judged by some in the media and amongst some fans of the sport.

If I'm wrong in the detail of Provincial transfers then I'm wrong - you won't be the first one to have found me out on one of rugby's sub-love categories. But I'll continue to see 'wrongness' in the mis-directed 'offence' taken, and in the suceeding prominently inaccurate emphasis on the 'Ulster' connection to my initial post - which wasn't there in the original at all.

I actually have a point to make on your post/query though (the retort one Wink) but again - I'll get back to you on that one a little later.

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Post by Kingshu Wed 12 Dec 2012, 2:16 pm

Don
Ulster made inquiries about Gavin Duffy before signing Payne, Ulster aren't above the other two, in looking at players from Connacht

Ulster have provided more to Connacht than the other two though.

With the tougher NIQ player restrictions coming in, this could happen to Connacht more, if a Province needs a player in a certain position they will look at the IQ opions first.

Wish Leinster had gone for Tommy Hayes, he's playing well for Exeter, only a year older than McCarthy.

I think to be honest more players have left Connacht recently than will in future, McCarthy is the only one I'd have issue with.

Cronin, Carr, Hagan, Keatley all left at a time when Connacht were only allowed to offer them one year contracts (while IRFU did review, which resulted in more funds etc), and thier Contracts were up that summer.

NOC and McComish were Ulster players before, Wouldn't say anything if McSharry went back to Leinster.

As yet no Connacht born player has been taken, and I hope that stays.

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Post by Kingshu Wed 12 Dec 2012, 2:26 pm

Actually looks like Connacht are annoyed at this one,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20692502

Connacht have accused Leinster of "persistently targeting" their players after Ireland's Michael McCarthy agreed a move to the Heineken Cup champions.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 12 Dec 2012, 2:29 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
clivemcl wrote:How will Connacht ever be anything other than a feeder team?

How long before the other provinces decide they want Henshaw, Marmion, McSharry, O'Halloran.

If any of these guys finish their careers at Connacht I'll eat me hat.


(Can we get a hat eating emoticon? It comes up a lot)
Guys this is Mike's decision. He wanted to leave Connacht, it was his own choice. If he didn't join Leinster he would have joined an English club. We shouldn't force a player to stay with a province.

Connacht are still attracting good players. Last season they got Nathan White and they are in talks with a few Leinster players. They also have some good young options such as Mick Kearney and Andrew Browne who were both immense against Biarritz. Along with Naopu and Swifty, they still have good options in the 2nd row.


What Leinster lads are they in talks with LF4L?
Jordi Murphy and Cronin.

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Post by neilthom7 Wed 12 Dec 2012, 2:30 pm

Well that is 4 players in 2 years so you can't really say they are wrong lol

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Post by Don Alfonso Wed 12 Dec 2012, 2:34 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
Don Alfonso wrote:

What Connacht players have Ulster headhunted?


Forgive me, Don... I only read that bit of your post. I'll read the rest of it when I get a moment but that was the bit that interested me for now.

That - was - a - generalisation.

Meaning, Connacht is seen as the poor cousin who has players taken away from it off and on by the other Provinces. No, my area of expertise is NOT the transfer market. I don't have a whole lot of interest in who goes where and when and how, or how much was paid for him. That's a sub-love category in rugby...but not mine.

A generalisation - to make a point. It happens.

Fair enough. A generalisation. Or, if you like, an inaccuracy.

My point is - Ulster don't need to do it. Why do Munster and Leinster, both of whom have been much more successful in recent times, and who should find it very easy to attract IQ interest from overseas?

You don't have an intricate interest in the transfer market, fair enough. But you're here ommenting on it, so expect to get caled on flimsy logic or being wrong.

To make my point, I have to point out you're wrong. It happens.

Good man. I'm dancing on ratty hot coals all morning. I'm getting used to it. I'll put it down to the Tensions Before Christmas.

I can give it and thankfully I can take it - fire ahead Wink

But maybe you could have more 'accurately' picked up the actual theme of my initial post - which had as its central point that Connacht was both victim and benefactor of Leinster's aggressive 'steal' policy, as judged by some in the media and amongst some fans of the sport.

If I'm wrong in the detail of Provincial transfers then I'm wrong - you won't be the first one to have found me out on one of rugby's sub-love categories. But I'll continue to see 'wrongness' in the mis-directed 'offence' taken, and in the suceeding prominently inaccurate emphasis on the 'Ulster' connection to my initial post - which wasn't there in the original at all.

I actually have a point to make on your post/query though (the retort one Wink) but again - I'll get back to you on that one a little later.


Oh, I got your actual theme. And had no problem with it. But didn't think it amazing enough to post "well said, sir!!" So didn't comment on it.

And I didn't take offence. I thought I was making a salient point - that offering contracts to Connacht's first-choice players is not a necessity to have a competitive province, whether it's "right" or "wrong".

And if it's not necessary, possibly it would be better not to, whether you're allowed to or not. Keeping a hold of their firont-line players will allow Connacht to continue to improve. And that will benefit the international team, leaving aside any wish to see Connacht do well, for their own sake.

You can get back to me later. Can't guarantee I'll be about. Terribly important and busy chap, don't you know...

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 12 Dec 2012, 2:38 pm

This would never have happened if the IRFU just let is keep Hines.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 12 Dec 2012, 2:44 pm

Connacht have nine former Leinster or Leinster [and Ireland] U20s in their senior squad: Matt Healy, Kyle Tonetti, Dave McSharry, Paul O'Donohoe, Davey Moore, Mick Kearney, Dave Gannon, Jason Harris-Wright and Nathan White.

We do help Connacht out aswell. We aren't all bad.

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Post by neilthom7 Wed 12 Dec 2012, 2:52 pm

I think this business of giving Connacht players is a red herring for all the provinces Ulster, Munster and Leinster never give Connacht a first team player. They give them players who need to be improved or are young and need experience. Connacht do all the work of getting these guys better then the 'big' provinces go and take them away again. Connacht get limited rewards with these players.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 12 Dec 2012, 3:13 pm

neilthom7 wrote:I think this business of giving Connacht players is a red herring for all the provinces Ulster, Munster and Leinster never give Connacht a first team player. They give them players who need to be improved or are young and need experience. Connacht do all the work of getting these guys better then the 'big' provinces go and take them away again. Connacht get limited rewards with these players.
Fair enough. I do think we have made a mistake by taking him away from Connacht but remember it is his decision.

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Post by Golden Wed 12 Dec 2012, 3:16 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Connacht have nine former Leinster or Leinster [and Ireland] U20s in their senior squad: Matt Healy, Kyle Tonetti, Dave McSharry, Paul O'Donohoe, Davey Moore, Mick Kearney, Dave Gannon, Jason Harris-Wright and Nathan White.

We do help Connacht out aswell. We aren't all bad.

Think they have Peter o reilly, the Leinster th from the under 20s a couple of years ago too.

Although just checked and he's only in their academy so I guess he doesn't really count as a Leinster player.

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Post by Kingshu Wed 12 Dec 2012, 3:20 pm

I can't blame Leinster to much either, they needed a lock and got the best IQ lock they could.

As Connacht get better, the best IQ player will more often be in Connacht rather than oversea's. Would a fan of any other Province rather have the best IQ player at Connachts expense, or the 2nd best IQ player?

If your a team wanting to win things you will want the best.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 12 Dec 2012, 3:24 pm

You dress up 'not being offended' so well Don... now if only I believed you ...we'd be halfway there to a belated love-in Wink.

Now to the actual answer to the rest of that thorny post that I'm told wasn't 'thorny' at all. Feel free not to read on though as I know how life can be in the White Rabbit world of 'no time to delay'.

So you initially warn me off trying to justify Leinster's talent-plucking as harsh reality driven by necessity? I need no warning as I never made that point. I stated a fact. The fact is that Ulster might choose to weaken a foreign side or sides by dragging in IQ players. Leinster have done the same but the taunt that they don't need to take from another Irish team is obsolete, as it's what they sometimes do - their free choice, added to the choice of many of the player's themselves, added to the fact that many Connacht players play out of their skins in the very hope that certain Irish Provinces (that shall now remain nameless in case of inaccurate reporting) might come calling and offer them more of a European profile and a better odds platform for entering the International team. That's the facts.

Whether it's wrong or right, whether I'm defending them or not, is a pointless debate. The truth is it has happened in the past, it will happen again AND that Connacht in the HEC comes courtesy of Leinster - two years running. This year might very well be Ulster's time to give them the berth.

But to the main point then. If someone here thinks I'd ever suggest that Irish players - (no, not IQ players, genuine Irish players who were born here, played all their youth rugby here, have played their Provincial rugby here, and have always dreamed that maybe, just maybe, their career might give them a shot at playing in the HEC or more importantly for their country) - if someone here thinks I'd suggest that whipping up those players between Irish Provinces, or even whipping from Connacht in particular, is a bad thing - or a less good thing than chasing down those prospective players from overseas like Ulster allegedly prefer to do, then I probably need to publish my principles more often.

Choosing Irish players who have operated their whole lives in Ireland is infinitely more attractive to me than doing the globetrotting search for Irish grannies, or indeed taking back Irish qualified players from England. I wouldn't defend my position at all, I'd recommend it Wink

I'd also recommend that Connacht selectively 'steals' from Leinster if the tides turns on fortunes through the decades, as they could very well do. Irish rugby is the key for me - not Provincial inter-fighting. The growth of Irish rugby overall - and THAT is exactly what is happening, and Connacht is benefitting from that growth despite what the naysayers say about it forever being the fall guy. To me, in practice, it continues to grow as it allegedly forever falls. Four strong Provinces, whipping choice players from each other - that's an ideal, not a guilty secret.


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Post by Don Alfonso Wed 12 Dec 2012, 4:54 pm

SecretFly wrote:You dress up 'not being offended' so well Don... now if only I believed you ...we'd be halfway there to a belated love-in Wink.

Now to the actual answer to the rest of that thorny post that I'm told wasn't 'thorny' at all. Feel free not to read on though as I know how life can be in the White Rabbit world of 'no time to delay'.

So you initially warn me off trying to justify Leinster's talent-plucking as harsh reality driven by necessity? I need no warning as I never made that point. I stated a fact. The fact is that Ulster might choose to weaken a foreign side or sides by dragging in IQ players. Leinster have done the same but the taunt that they don't need to take from another Irish team is obsolete, as it's what they sometimes do - their free choice, added to the choice of many of the player's themselves, added to the fact that many Connacht players play out of their skins in the very hope that certain Irish Provinces (that shall now remain nameless in case of inaccurate reporting) might come calling and offer them more of a European profile and a better odds platform for entering the International team. That's the facts.

Whether it's wrong or right, whether I'm defending them or not, is a pointless debate. The truth is it has happened in the past, it will happen again AND that Connacht in the HEC comes courtesy of Leinster - two years running. This year might very well be Ulster's time to give them the berth.

But to the main point then. If someone here thinks I'd ever suggest that Irish players - (no, not IQ players, genuine Irish players who were born here, played all their youth rugby here, have played their Provincial rugby here, and have always dreamed that maybe, just maybe, their career might give them a shot at playing in the HEC or more importantly for their country) - if someone here thinks I'd suggest that whipping up those players between Irish Provinces, or even whipping from Connacht in particular, is a bad thing - or a less good thing than chasing down those prospective players from overseas like Ulster allegedly prefer to do, then I probably need to publish my principles more often.

Choosing Irish players who have operated their whole lives in Ireland is infinitely more attractive to me than doing the globetrotting search for Irish grannies, or indeed taking back Irish qualified players from England. I wouldn't defend my position at all, I'd recommend it Wink

I'd also recommend that Connacht selectively 'steals' from Leinster if the tides turns on fortunes through the decades, as they could very well do. Irish rugby is the key for me - not Provincial inter-fighting. The growth of Irish rugby overall - and THAT is exactly what is happening, and Connacht is benefitting from that growth despite what the naysayers say about it forever being the fall guy. To me, in practice, it continues to grow as it allegedly forever falls. Four strong Provinces, whipping choice players from each other - that's an ideal, not a guilty secret.



Fair enough. I disagree on quite a bit of that.

I rarely accept "That's just how it is" as a valid justification for anything, including Leinster "taking from another Irish team" (your words). You do. Fine.

You'd rather have a weaker Connacht if it meant that less players at provinces were part of the Irish diaspora, and more were "proper" (my word) Irish. Fine.

I don't understand how Mike McCarthy leaving for Leinster and weakening Connacht adds to the growth of Irish rugby.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 12 Dec 2012, 5:00 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:
SecretFly wrote:You dress up 'not being offended' so well Don... now if only I believed you ...we'd be halfway there to a belated love-in Wink.

Now to the actual answer to the rest of that thorny post that I'm told wasn't 'thorny' at all. Feel free not to read on though as I know how life can be in the White Rabbit world of 'no time to delay'.

So you initially warn me off trying to justify Leinster's talent-plucking as harsh reality driven by necessity? I need no warning as I never made that point. I stated a fact. The fact is that Ulster might choose to weaken a foreign side or sides by dragging in IQ players. Leinster have done the same but the taunt that they don't need to take from another Irish team is obsolete, as it's what they sometimes do - their free choice, added to the choice of many of the player's themselves, added to the fact that many Connacht players play out of their skins in the very hope that certain Irish Provinces (that shall now remain nameless in case of inaccurate reporting) might come calling and offer them more of a European profile and a better odds platform for entering the International team. That's the facts.

Whether it's wrong or right, whether I'm defending them or not, is a pointless debate. The truth is it has happened in the past, it will happen again AND that Connacht in the HEC comes courtesy of Leinster - two years running. This year might very well be Ulster's time to give them the berth.

But to the main point then. If someone here thinks I'd ever suggest that Irish players - (no, not IQ players, genuine Irish players who were born here, played all their youth rugby here, have played their Provincial rugby here, and have always dreamed that maybe, just maybe, their career might give them a shot at playing in the HEC or more importantly for their country) - if someone here thinks I'd suggest that whipping up those players between Irish Provinces, or even whipping from Connacht in particular, is a bad thing - or a less good thing than chasing down those prospective players from overseas like Ulster allegedly prefer to do, then I probably need to publish my principles more often.

Choosing Irish players who have operated their whole lives in Ireland is infinitely more attractive to me than doing the globetrotting search for Irish grannies, or indeed taking back Irish qualified players from England. I wouldn't defend my position at all, I'd recommend it Wink

I'd also recommend that Connacht selectively 'steals' from Leinster if the tides turns on fortunes through the decades, as they could very well do. Irish rugby is the key for me - not Provincial inter-fighting. The growth of Irish rugby overall - and THAT is exactly what is happening, and Connacht is benefitting from that growth despite what the naysayers say about it forever being the fall guy. To me, in practice, it continues to grow as it allegedly forever falls. Four strong Provinces, whipping choice players from each other - that's an ideal, not a guilty secret.



Fair enough. I disagree on quite a bit of that.

I rarely accept "That's just how it is" as a valid justification for anything, including Leinster "taking from another Irish team" (your words). You do. Fine.

You'd rather have a weaker Connacht if it meant that less players at provinces were part of the Irish diaspora, and more were "proper" (my word) Irish. Fine.

I don't understand how Mike McCarthy leaving for Leinster and weakening Connacht adds to the growth of Irish rugby.
Mick Kearney and Andrew Browne (both extremely promising players) will now get much more gametime and one will become a starter. Then more guys are promoted from the academy to cover for them. All results in Irish rugby growing because we have more players playing top level rugby.

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Post by Don Alfonso Wed 12 Dec 2012, 5:09 pm

But the same couldn't happen with Leinster? Younger locks get gametime? Or wouldn't it be better if one of Kearney or Browne moved to Leinster?

Also, it's a bit disingenuous to say "it's what's best for Ireland". Tthe IMPORTANT factor is - the reason it's happening is - it's best for Leinster. And McCarthy, as far as he's concerned.

But if it does have any benefical effects for Irish rugby generally (which I'm not convinced it will), they would be entirely coincidental. Let's not kid ourselves here.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 12 Dec 2012, 5:15 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:But the same couldn't happen with Leinster? Younger locks get gametime? Or wouldn't it be better if one of Kearney or Browne moved to Leinster?

Also, it's a bit disingenuous to say "it's what's best for Ireland". Tthe IMPORTANT factor is - the reason it's happening is - it's best for Leinster. And McCarthy, as far as he's concerned.

But if it does have any benefical effects for Irish rugby generally (which I'm not convinced it will), they would be entirely coincidental. Let's not kid ourselves here.
Why would it have been better if we had taken Browne or Kearney? They will be around a lot longer and Kearney looks to have more potential than McCarthy because McCarty was no where near as good as Kearney is at that age . It would have been even worse if we had taken one of them.

I would have rathered McCarthy to have stayed with Connacht but, this is HIS choice. Its better that he joined Leinster and not an English club.

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Post by Don Alfonso Wed 12 Dec 2012, 5:21 pm

Connacht are losing their best, most consistent player. If Browne or Kearney had gone, that would not be the case.


Agree 100% with your last point.

No-one, in my humble opinion, has done anything "wrong". As I wrote above, Leinster are being painted as pantomime villains in a ludicrous way.

I just think that this will weaken Connacht more than it will strengthen Leinster, and as a result, weaken Irish rugby a little bit.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 12 Dec 2012, 5:24 pm

Don Alfonso wrote:Connacht are losing their best, most consistent player. If Browne or Kearney had gone, that would not be the case.


Agree 100% with your last point.

No-one, in my humble opinion, has done anything "wrong". As I wrote above, Leinster are being painted as pantomime villains in a ludicrous way.

I just think that this will weaken Connacht more than it will strengthen Leinster, and as a result, weaken Irish rugby a little bit.
in the short term yes this will have a damaging effect. Not in the long term.

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Post by neilthom7 Wed 12 Dec 2012, 5:26 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:
neilthom7 wrote:I think this business of giving Connacht players is a red herring for all the provinces Ulster, Munster and Leinster never give Connacht a first team player. They give them players who need to be improved or are young and need experience. Connacht do all the work of getting these guys better then the 'big' provinces go and take them away again. Connacht get limited rewards with these players.
Fair enough. I do think we have made a mistake by taking him away from Connacht but remember it is his decision.

Oh I absolutely agree, he will be brilliant for Leinster they need a Lock and he is a quality player he will do well there. It's down to players too Carr should never have moved, one look at Leinsters backline and he should have known that his gametime would be severely limited.
Don't worry though Connacht if you need a player I am available and cheap and wont leave OK

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Post by Don Alfonso Wed 12 Dec 2012, 5:32 pm

Why not? What will be the benefits that will outweigh the short-term damage? Does that depend on the assumption that Browne/Kearney will be better than McCarthy, in a very short period of time?

I think Connacht are at a very important point in their progress. I'd worry that they'll be set back.

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, by the way. I just don't see it.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 12 Dec 2012, 5:44 pm

neilthom7 wrote:
LeinsterFan4life wrote:
neilthom7 wrote:I think this business of giving Connacht players is a red herring for all the provinces Ulster, Munster and Leinster never give Connacht a first team player. They give them players who need to be improved or are young and need experience. Connacht do all the work of getting these guys better then the 'big' provinces go and take them away again. Connacht get limited rewards with these players.
Fair enough. I do think we have made a mistake by taking him away from Connacht but remember it is his decision.

Oh I absolutely agree, he will be brilliant for Leinster they need a Lock and he is a quality player he will do well there. It's down to players too Carr should never have moved, one look at Leinsters backline and he should have known that his gametime would be severely limited.
Don't worry though Connacht if you need a player I am available and cheap and wont leave OK
Carr was on the books with a few other teams at the time because he made his intentions clear that he wanted to leave Connacht. He said he wanted to comeback to Leinster which is obvious because thats where he's from.
We signed him as squad cover for the World cup year and then kept him for this season becuase of all the injuries in the squad. I don't think Connacht would have been able to do anything at the time to hold onto him. He made the wrong choice but you can't blame him for making it.

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Post by SecretFly Wed 12 Dec 2012, 5:53 pm

I understand your views Don. I know I don't always have conventional ones, so I'm used to people coming back at me. No problem with you reading into what I say more what you think I'm saying rather than what I was saying. Semantics perhaps.

Irish rugby is a long term venture. Not a season or five seasons or even ten seasons. It's long term. It has been since I began watching back in the early 70s as a child and continues to be, running into this century. It's long term. And I easily say it is growing. I easily say Connacht is part of that growth. The growth does not preclude the followers/supporters - growth is actually probably mostly defined by followers.

Connacht have been in HEC now for two straight years. That in no way weakens a side, either in performance ability or in sense of identity or pride. Connacht have and will continue to gain much from having actually been there - playing at the top -, rather than being continuously patronised by some outsiders who constantly suggest that actually Connacht would be better off playing in the Amlin, where they and their supporters might actually have a chance of winning something, bless 'em

Bless 'em, my a**. Drop them in there - push them, make them sweat, show them the tempo of HEC, teach them the hard learned lessons. To suggest Connacht's presence in the HEC for the last few years, and hopefully next year too, doesn't strengthen Connacht rugby on the whole or doesn't add to the growth of Irish rugby.... well, I just couldn't buy that argument, Don - ever.

As for the Irish diaspora - the Irish diaspora (in my opinion - it's always only my opinion) is an excuse for tolerating mediocrity in our own Provinces, both in terms of what we ask of our first teamers and in what we expect through schools, through clubs rugby, through Provincial academies, through to Provincial rugby itself. If we think it a richer world to go seek players outside rather than grow rugby internally then that again is another choice on principle - one I personally wouldn't agree with it either, in the slightest.

Yes, there will be times we desperately need the diaspora (Bent being the newest cog in that wheel) but to claim greater purity in the idea of including the diaspora than in giving home-grown talent the coaching, fitness, nutrition and medical back-up to produce the goods - and the chance -, that too would be a philosophy I wouldn't ever agree with.

I wouldn't make excuses for championing players who have given all their time and energies - and dedication and dreams - to Irish rugby, be it club, Provincial or International. I'd just simply and openly champion them, without guilt.

Irish rugby growing from within, with confidence in its systems, whilst perfecting its systems, whilst exchanging players between them as needs must and only calling on the outside world when absolutely necessary - that's my ideal. That's not saying our Provincial teams should be exclusively Irish, that's not saying Irish players shouldn't have the rights and freedoms to choose for themselves to go off to England or elsewhere for their rugby careers. But it's what we do here to accentuate the skills and talents of home-grown players that will define how much we grow and how well we sustain it. If we can't produce our own players, in all positions, well then that's not really growth to me at all. It's bluff.

But as you say, we'll differ on most or all that most likely. Cést le vie. Smile Ok...now I'm finished on 606 for the day - the White rabbit in me has things to do! Thanks be to God! says Don Wink

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Post by neilthom7 Wed 12 Dec 2012, 5:57 pm

well obviously his home province is a big draw, just ask tommy bowe so i cant argue with that.

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Post by Mickado Thu 13 Dec 2012, 7:16 am

Just in terms of Carrs move to Leinster not working out. You'd really have to lay the blame of this squarely at the door of Fionn Carr, he WANTED to move back to Leinster, he has had plenty of chances to establish himself in the team and he's taken none of them. Had he kept us his try scoring record from his Connacht days he'd be starting against Clermont this weekend, instead he was benched in a "break in case of emergency" mode last week and will likely play with the As this week to make way for the returning DKearney.

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Post by Don Alfonso Thu 13 Dec 2012, 10:01 am

SecretFly wrote:I understand your views Don. I know I don't always have conventional ones, so I'm used to people coming back at me. No problem with you reading into what I say more what you think I'm saying rather than what I was saying. Semantics perhaps.

Irish rugby is a long term venture. Not a season or five seasons or even ten seasons. It's long term. It has been since I began watching back in the early 70s as a child and continues to be, running into this century. It's long term. And I easily say it is growing. I easily say Connacht is part of that growth. The growth does not preclude the followers/supporters - growth is actually probably mostly defined by followers.

Connacht have been in HEC now for two straight years. That in no way weakens a side, either in performance ability or in sense of identity or pride. Connacht have and will continue to gain much from having actually been there - playing at the top -, rather than being continuously patronised by some outsiders who constantly suggest that actually Connacht would be better off playing in the Amlin, where they and their supporters might actually have a chance of winning something, bless 'em

Bless 'em, my a**. Drop them in there - push them, make them sweat, show them the tempo of HEC, teach them the hard learned lessons. To suggest Connacht's presence in the HEC for the last few years, and hopefully next year too, doesn't strengthen Connacht rugby on the whole or doesn't add to the growth of Irish rugby.... well, I just couldn't buy that argument, Don - ever.

As for the Irish diaspora - the Irish diaspora (in my opinion - it's always only my opinion) is an excuse for tolerating mediocrity in our own Provinces, both in terms of what we ask of our first teamers and in what we expect through schools, through clubs rugby, through Provincial academies, through to Provincial rugby itself. If we think it a richer world to go seek players outside rather than grow rugby internally then that again is another choice on principle - one I personally wouldn't agree with it either, in the slightest.

Yes, there will be times we desperately need the diaspora (Bent being the newest cog in that wheel) but to claim greater purity in the idea of including the diaspora than in giving home-grown talent the coaching, fitness, nutrition and medical back-up to produce the goods - and the chance -, that too would be a philosophy I wouldn't ever agree with.

I wouldn't make excuses for championing players who have given all their time and energies - and dedication and dreams - to Irish rugby, be it club, Provincial or International. I'd just simply and openly champion them, without guilt.

Irish rugby growing from within, with confidence in its systems, whilst perfecting its systems, whilst exchanging players between them as needs must and only calling on the outside world when absolutely necessary - that's my ideal. That's not saying our Provincial teams should be exclusively Irish, that's not saying Irish players shouldn't have the rights and freedoms to choose for themselves to go off to England or elsewhere for their rugby careers. But it's what we do here to accentuate the skills and talents of home-grown players that will define how much we grow and how well we sustain it. If we can't produce our own players, in all positions, well then that's not really growth to me at all. It's bluff.

But as you say, we'll differ on most or all that most likely. Cést le vie. Smile Ok...now I'm finished on 606 for the day - the White rabbit in me has things to do! Thanks be to God! says Don Wink

Just briefly - lomg, thoughtful post. Good to engage with.

I don't know where you get the idea I don't want to see Connacht in the HEC. I desperately want to see them in it, and competing as well as they can. I honestly don't know why you would think otherwise, or, indeed, what that has to do with McCarthy. Yes, they owe their presence in the competition to Leinster. They don't owe them McCarthy.

I wouldn't argue greater purity for people from the diaspora. I've no interest in "purity" at all. One of the things I love most about the Ireland team is that it is the least "pure" of any rugby "nation", in that it encompasses two states, two traditions. I applaud that. "Purity"? Not for me, I'm afraid - I used it in a pejorative sense. I'm a mongrel and would fail any Irish purity yardstick you would care to measure me by, and I am a proud Ireland fan. And I am happy for our players to be the same.

I think, Fly, that, maybe you’re doing a bit of that “reading what you think I’m saying rather than what I’m actually saying” yourself?

And in the interests of fairness, I read something this morning about Munster and Ulster sniffing round Henshaw. If that’s true, Humph, you need a boot up the hole. We have Jared Payne. Of course, it would be nice to have a talented youngster to back him up – oh wait, we have one, in the 20-year-old Peter Nelson. And on the wing, he wouldn’t be ahead of Bowe, Trimble or Gilroy. Let him be, Humph. Let him – and Connacht – flourish.

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Post by SecretFly Thu 13 Dec 2012, 1:10 pm

Final post on this: I just wanted to leave it but I couldn't because, yet again, you make assumptions about my meaning that are way off target - dangerously so at times in terms of a guy's reputation in here! They need to be corrected.

One - I didn't get the idea that you don't want to see Connacht in the HEC, Don. I didn't get the idea because I never said such a thing; and neither will you find one reference to the notion - not one. You keep confusing rhetoric devised to clarify discussion points as personal accusations. I speak to many people here, and I've spoken to many of them about Connacht and it is those attitudes I alluded to - not yours.

Two - the dicey word 'purity'! A dangerous word if not fully explained.

Irish rugby is Irish rugby. I didn't name it so, it was already up and running when I was born. Irish rugby can only be what it is or else it doesn't require a name at all to explain its distinction from Australian rugby, English rugby, French rugby etc. I didn't name it and, therefore, if we both happen to be fans of Irish rugby - even though we're from those two different states and traditions that you just had to mention - then I'm not going to pretend I have a problem in saying I champion the idea that priority should be first and foremost given to Irish players, playing on the island from childhood, to advance rugby at Provincial level and International level.

But if I'm wrong and if Irishness, and shades of it, are all over the world, then let's just transfer Irish rugby over to the US and have done with it. There are more Irish people, of every strand, over there than there is on this island. It would make good business sense for the IRFU to hightail it out of here and reinvent itself lucratively over there. - Why don't they? Because being on the island your team is named after does mean something, it is of practical importance, it does influence ideas of what belongs where, who belongs where and what gets priority.

Nothing 'purist' in that, nothing balaclava and sunglasses, nothing pseudo-political - simply someone saying that if Irish rugby exists at all as a concept then our first loyalty should be to the players who have always grown up wanting to play for it. I'm the one who used the word 'pure' - and in a completely different context to the meaning you threw back at me. My comment on purity dealth with assumed perfect plans, perfect execution of rugby business plans - and I said I didn't agree with the purity of the idea that it was a better way to have expat/IQ players chased down in preference to selecting appropriate players within the Provinces themselves. I didn't share that ideal that you proposed as the better plan for Leinster to adopt.

Anyway, we might both follow Irish rugby, Don, - but it simply seems we have fundamentally opposite ideas about what Irish rugby actually means. And do you know, the sad thing is that I have to admit I'm sensing that clash of overall philosophies actually growing rather than falling away in recent months. Which is a shame... for both sides of the Irish coin! But so be it, we won't stall history or shifting moods. We are what we are, and that's all we can be.

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Post by Don Alfonso Thu 13 Dec 2012, 2:48 pm

Fair enough on point one - I have no problem with a rhetorical flourish!

Point two - I am mostly in agreement, actually. You make a good, impassioned case, one that I don't find much fault with. To be honest, I hadn't even noticed you used the word pure - if you look at my post, I refer explicitly to "pure" as being "my word" - my own rhetorical flourish.

I think in this instance, it would have been better (for Irish rugby as a whole) for Leinster to seek out a foreign IQ player than make McCarthy an offer. We are in complete agreement on growing the game on this island. Where does it have the most scope for growth? Connacht. What will grow support in Connacht? Success, and having their own heroes. McCarthy has been - and could have continued to be - a major part of both those factors. Connacht, like a large part of Ulster, is virgin territory, waiting for us to convert them to the Way of Rugby with our missionary-like zeal.

As regards your last point – don’t be sad. It’s not – on my part – some massive schism. It’s dissent. It’s people who are passionate about their sport on their island who want the best, but disagree on the way forward.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Tue 08 Jan 2013, 9:45 pm

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_8385752,00.html

Could the Irish club be Leinster? I doubt we would be able to compete with the money on offer in France.

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Post by Morgannwg Tue 08 Jan 2013, 10:39 pm

Imagine him and Toner!
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Post by rodders Wed 09 Jan 2013, 9:08 am

Bekker to Connacht?.....
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Post by Mickado Wed 09 Jan 2013, 10:56 am

Bekker would be mad to move from SA, he's pretty well established as a first choice Bok. Probably some good work being done here by his agent.

Still though, it's nice to dream...

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Post by red_stag Wed 09 Jan 2013, 11:01 am

Ian Nagle to Leinster looks the most likely bet. Hasn't been offered a new deal with Munster and looks like he has fallen behind Dave Foley and Billy Holland in the pecking order.
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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed 09 Jan 2013, 11:21 am

red_stag wrote:Ian Nagle to LeinsterConnacht looks the most likely bet. Hasn't been offered a new deal with Munster and looks like he has fallen behind Dave Foley and Billy Holland in the pecking order.

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Post by red_stag Wed 09 Jan 2013, 11:40 am

Actually yes I forgot Mike McCarthy going to Leinster.
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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 09 Jan 2013, 12:55 pm

Nagle to Connacht is a more likely move. If he can 't get ahead of Billy Holland than he'll be a long way down the pecking order at Leinster, especially if Leo stays on another year.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed 09 Jan 2013, 1:45 pm

Leinster could sign someone like Andries Bekker AND give Quinn Roux another 2 years as a project.

The only thing stopping them would be if the IRFU decide to keep the positional rule (1 NIQ in each position over three provinces). If that is enforced, then Munster will have to lose Botha as Ulster already have Afoa for next season.

If Muller has another year at Ulster that is, as has been widely reported.

I'm not saying that Leinster will do that or even that it is desirable, just that they have that option as Isa Nacewa is the only NIQ with a contract past the end of the season, and we have a spare NIQ spot as it is. Goodman, VDM and Roux as a project are all we have on the books.

We should be fine at loose head with Jack McGrath coming through, Jack O'Connell behind him, and Bent's ability to play both sides.

So we can afford to sacrifice VDM so Munster can keep WDP. Wink

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 09 Jan 2013, 1:48 pm

If we sign Bekker (which is unlikely) what about letting Roux go to Connacht? He would be a good replacement for McCarthy.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed 09 Jan 2013, 1:57 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:If we sign Bekker (which is unlikely) what about letting Roux go to Connacht? He would be a good replacement for McCarthy.

As I said. Bekker was just an example. Not saying we are signing, or even that we should sign him.

If we don't keep Roux I would bet a stack that he will go back to the Stormers to replace Bekker. Nagle looks to be in pole position for the MaCarthy job.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 09 Jan 2013, 2:01 pm

Nagle won't be starting with Connacht. Swift is staying on another year and it looks liks Naoupo is staying. Also Mick Kearney has been excellent with Connacht this season.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed 09 Jan 2013, 2:08 pm

That's as maybe. They will possibly still need another lock in the squad. Whoever he is ahead of or behind. Naoupo is better at 8 IMHO.

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Post by LeinsterFan4life Wed 09 Jan 2013, 2:15 pm

Rumours are that Damien Browne could be heading West. I would like us to hang onto him especially if Toner isn't offered a new contract.

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Post by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed 09 Jan 2013, 2:39 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Rumours are that Damien Browne could be heading West. I would like us to hang onto him especially if Toner isn't offered a new contract.

I like him too. It is his home province though. Is his brother still there? I think he is but he's injured.

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Post by Mickado Wed 09 Jan 2013, 3:41 pm

Yeah Andrew is still there alright.

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Post by red_stag Wed 09 Jan 2013, 3:51 pm

Have any Leinster people heard anything about Mike Ross leaving. Its doing the rounds since before Christmas in Munster.
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Post by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed 09 Jan 2013, 4:26 pm

I've heard about it too, wouldn't be a bad call for Irish rugby so Bent can be first choice and we have some guys coming through the ranks who could use the challenge.

Obviously you guys may have to get rid of Botha

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Post by red_stag Wed 09 Jan 2013, 4:31 pm

We would have to get rid of Botha.

It would suit us so well though. We pay Botha a small fortune. We'd pay Ross nothing.

Munster are bleeding cash at the minute and we need to get Thomond Park paid off.
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