Leinster in talks with a top notch 2nd row?

First topic message reminder :

Just seen this on the Leinsterfans forum. "There are serious talks going on with Top Notch second row. Obviously I cant say who,but hopefully we can get this guy across the line..."

The guy that posted this is supposed to be an ultra reliable source. Any thoughts on who it could be?

LeinsterFan4life wrote:Feic developing a 2nd row i want a big name! We have thornbury, flanagan and tadhg Beirne in the academy. All of them look very promising 2nd rows. What we need now is a big name signing to come in and pass onto these guys what he knows. Let these guys develope for a couple of years in the B&I Cup.

It is this attitude that has hurt our national team in the past.

Will a big name really come and and pass onto the guys what he knows. You had a big name in Nathan Hines. Then you had a big name in Brad Thorn. Now you want another big name. What about in 2 years time, will you want another big name?

Well who are the guys that would be able to handle HCup level?

Flanagan?
Beirne?

Not really an option if we have designs of winning the HCup again and we do. Why shouldn't we have a big signing in a starting team as we only have 1 as it is? Munster have 3 or 4 and Ulster have 5.

Seems a bit unbalanced to me that we shouldn't be able to go for someone because we aren't developing second rows (which we aren't really Toner aside).

We are developing guys in every position other than there though in all fairness. Who are the guys who'd be behind this new NIE? Toner or CUllen.

But think of Stevenson, Marshall, Fitzpatrick at Ulster all missing out on first choice game time and O'Dea, Archer and to a lesser extent Earls or Downey missing out.

Pete my problem is that I dont believe this will be the signing to kick start player development.

Yes Flanagan and Beirne may not be good enough. However do you really think that Nathan Hines to Brad Thorn to Quinn Roux to Richie Gray is in any way helpful.

well should we then sign Stevenson, Ryan<?> or Henderson who aren't starting locks for their province and they may be for us?

If we had a good player who was losing out that would make perfect sense but we need (and want) to win the HCup so having Toner, Cullen, Browne, Flanagan, Denton, Beirne is not good enough.

Should Munster not have signed Botha when Archer was there? Should Ulster have kept Muller when Henderson and Stevenson were both really vcoming along?

Can't treat the provinces differently IMO, one rule covers all.

Hands of Stevenson and Henderson ye bollixes!

I agree with Stag in sentiment but lets face it the other provinces can't go judging Leinster in terms of NIE signings, given the players we've brought
in recently.

It's not ideal from an Ireland point of view but if Leinster need a decent overseas second row then good luck to them. Hope they get someone good.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Can't treat the provinces differently IMO, one rule covers all.

Who is treating them differently. My issue is not with signing foreign players. It is with one province signing foreign player after foreign player after foreign player in the same position.

I criticised Munster for doing it with our centres and I am critical for Leinster doing it now with second rows.

What difference does it make if one province needs to sign NIQ players in the same position? Ulster are tripping up over Irish centers, Leinster only have Irish centers, if Munster feel the need to recruit there then good luck to them. As long as (between the 4 provinces) we can provide players to the national side, I don't see it as being an issue and it's certainly not something that can be remedied in the short term.

Leinster are actively trying to recruit locks from clubs within the province, that's the long term goal, to produce them ourselves, in the short term we won't be helped by playing indigenous lads who aren't up to standard.

Ok so if you were Joe what would you do? Who are you supposed to develop? Putting Flanagan up against Clermont isn't really an option? Toner is good I think (I believe he is better than he is given credit for) but we want to go and win cups and isn't World Class.

Aside from that we have Browne and Cullen who are Pro12 and poor Hcup standard respectively.

What would you do?

Whats wrong with your current group of Cullen, Browne, Toner, Denton and Roux with McLaughlin covering in case of emergency and your academy lads developing in the B&I Cup.

Why the need for another foreign second row?

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Well who are the guys that would be able to handle HCup level?

Flanagan?
Beirne?

Not really an option if we have designs of winning the HCup again and we do. Why shouldn't we have a big signing in a starting team as we only have 1 as it is? Munster have 3 or 4 and Ulster have 5.

Seems a bit unbalanced to me that we shouldn't be able to go for someone because we aren't developing second rows (which we aren't really Toner aside).

We are developing guys in every position other than there though in all fairness. Who are the guys who'd be behind this new NIE? Toner or CUllen.

But think of Stevenson, Marshall, Fitzpatrick at Ulster all missing out on first choice game time and O'Dea, Archer and to a lesser extent Earls or Downey missing out.

Pete we are devloping 2nd rows. I just named three in our academey that all look to have bright futures ahead.
I rate Tadhg Beirne really high. I thought he was fantastic for the u20s.
Which is why we need this 2nd row signing to give them time to develope. We won't be able to win the HC with leo and toner/browne as our 2nd row.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Well who are the guys that would be able to handle HCup level?

Flanagan?
Beirne?

Not really an option if we have designs of winning the HCup again and we do. Why shouldn't we have a big signing in a starting team as we only have 1 as it is? Munster have 3 or 4 and Ulster have 5.

Seems a bit unbalanced to me that we shouldn't be able to go for someone because we aren't developing second rows (which we aren't really Toner aside).

We are developing guys in every position other than there though in all fairness. Who are the guys who'd be behind this new NIE? Toner or CUllen.

But think of Stevenson, Marshall, Fitzpatrick at Ulster all missing out on first choice game time and O'Dea, Archer and to a lesser extent Earls or Downey missing out.

Pete we are devloping 2nd rows. I just named three in our academey that all look to have bright futures ahead.
I rate Tadhg Beirne really high. I thought he was fantastic for the u20s.
Which is why we need this 2nd row signing to give them time to develope. We won't be able to win the HC with leo and toner/browne as our 2nd row.

Yeah I agree with this.

Beirne and Flanagan should be competing in A games and in the occassional pro12 game.

Lensterfan4life,

We heard this before though. We heard about young Devin Toner coming through, about how McLaughlin could easily slot in at second row, about Ciaran Ruddock the U20 international who was apparently doing well at age level rugby.

Will it be more of the same in 2 more years. That yet another big name is needed.

This thinking crippled our prop options. Sooner or later we need to give lads a chance in the Rabo.

Its what its there for.

red_stag wrote:Whats wrong with your current group of Cullen, Browne, Toner, Denton and Roux with McLaughlin covering in case of emergency and your academy lads developing in the B&I Cup.

Why the need for another foreign second row?

None of them are top quality locks for the HCup which is what we want/need to achieve what we can.

I think Toner is the only one right now who is developing right now towards further Irish caps. It was a nice idea to bring over IQ Denton but he doesn't look like he is HCup standard so far

red_stag wrote:Lensterfan4life,

We heard this before though. We heard about young Devin Toner coming through, about how McLaughlin could easily slot in at second row, about Ciaran Ruddock the U20 international who was apparently doing well at age level rugby.

Will it be more of the same in 2 more years. That yet another big name is needed.

This thinking crippled our prop options. Sooner or later we need to give lads a chance in the Rabo.

Its what its there for.

How would signing one lock stop guys from getting gametime in the rabo? Berine played u20 last year and thornbury is set to get on the u20 team this year. So they are a good bit off. Flanagan has already got rabo gametime but is currently injured.
I agree with you that we can't let it get out of hand. But so long as there is one irish lock in our starting team, I dont see the problem.

Also we have so many locks in Ireland now as well it can't really be compared to the prop crisis where there just weren't any Irish props playing in the land.

We have POC, Ryan, DOC, Tuohy, Henderson, Stevenson, McCarthy, Swift, Cullen, Toner all getting good game time

There goes the Carriza plan!

Seems that Metro also had the same idea

http://planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_8212793,00.html

Bathite wrote:There goes the Carriza plan!

Seems that Metro also had the same idea

http://planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_8212793,00.html

"Between the injury suffered by Santiago Dellape and the international call-up for Fijian Jone Qovu, we thought we were short of cover in the second row," explained Racing coach Gonzalo Quesada


Is it just me or does it seem a bit dull to be signing a player that will also be off on international duty then.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Bathite wrote:There goes the Carriza plan!

Seems that Metro also had the same idea

http://planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,16024_8212793,00.html

"Between the injury suffered by Santiago Dellape and the international call-up for Fijian Jone Qovu, we thought we were short of cover in the second row," explained Racing coach Gonzalo Quesada


Is it just me or does it seem a bit dull to be signing a player that will also be off on international duty then.

I thought he was interested in joining the scarlets.

What ever happened to Ed o'donoghue who you guys poached off ulster a while back. That was a massive error on leinsters part as Touhy was on level pegging, or possibly just slightly behind Ed at the time of him signing for Leinster.

I guess Ulster held on to the better player and let the less good player head south

Stag, if you could point towards players that really have the potential to be future every game locks in Leinster please do. I'm a big enough fella to take some advice. Leinster has even got to the stage recently where we started the route 6 6 program which effectly was a comb through the province to find any tall people to see about getting them in to second rows in club sides to check if any develop.

Leinster is short on locks.... mainly because Leinster is short... period. While the academy is producing talent at many positions, the one thing that can't be coached is height and that is the missing ingredient in a lot of these 'potential' second row players for Leinster.

Leinster are and have been doing a lot of work trying to identify second rows and develop them, but until actual players start coming off the end of the development program Leinster will need to find their second rows elsewhere.

And if keeping it Irish is the key (and I want as many options for Ireland as possible), the provinces should be sharing better. Leinster have great backrow options out their ears and have a smooth development line of backs but Felix Jones straight to Munster is one of the few within-trades that happen between the big 3 (as in not having Connacht in between).

Badnwagon,

Good players dont just grow out of the ground. They are made by giving them the chance.

By continuing to sign foreign players at lock Leinster are denying players the chance. Without including your acadmey players your have six second rows on your books and you have Kevin McLaughlin who can cover.

Thats 6 senior locks, one additional player who can cover and then your academy boys like Thornbury, Beirne etc.

Until you give these people a chance you will never realise what they can achieve. You have a foreign second row in Quinn Roux, you had one last year in Brad Thorn, you had one for the previous two years in Nathan Hines.

Give these guys a chance and lets develop some guys before looking to sign another foreign player.

PS I agree the provinces should share more. I think Ian Nagle to Leinster makes perfect sense for all concerned.

red_stag wrote:PS I agree the provinces should share more. I think Ian Nagle to Leinster makes perfect sense for all concerned.

+1

Completely agree would much prefer this or Henderson or Stevenson than going out and buying someone.

Leinster could also look at poaching Andrew Browne from Connacht. He looks a good player.

red_stag wrote:Leinster could also look at poaching Andrew Browne from Connacht. He looks a good player.

Might get into a few punchups with his brother Damo.

Punch ups are great learning tools for second rows.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQsermgwdfw

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

red_stag wrote:PS I agree the provinces should share more. I think Ian Nagle to Leinster makes perfect sense for all concerned.

+1

Completely agree would much prefer this or Henderson or Stevenson than going out and buying someone.

Seems queer that a Nation so dependent on internationalism should be promoting selective isolationism.

Yea its really queer how rugby and international trade are not in fact the same thing

Signing Henderson, Stevenson, Nagle IS buying someone.

Does it matter if they're Irish or not, if the national team has no problems with depth in that position?

CJ Stander will solve a problem for Munster, he's a very strong ball carrier. That's no an issue for Ireland, so there's no problem here at all as I see it. What's the difference between signing him and Leinster signing a lock?

Don't tell Angela that Staggy. Do the Court shush

Because Leinster are signing foreign lock after foreign lock after foreign lock after foreign lock.

CJ Stander comes in to supplement what is a very inexperienced backrow when we lost Denis Leamy, David Wallace.

We have not normally had foreign number 8s and we're unlikely to have once he leaves.

If you keep signing foreign players in the same position you will eventually arrive at a situation where we were with props.

Maybe if we close our eyes and don't look at sucession for another 4 years, dispand the PAG and place a moritorium on all chat about it, we'll end up in the same situation where we were with props. But i think we've learned our lesson, the short term plan is Munster and Ulster will have only Irish locks, Leinster can have one foreign one, but put a plan in place to produce more locks long term.

After Muller leaves (next season i think) this is what's going to happen. What's the issue?

greytiger wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:

red_stag wrote:PS I agree the provinces should share more. I think Ian Nagle to Leinster makes perfect sense for all concerned.

+1

Completely agree would much prefer this or Henderson or Stevenson than going out and buying someone.

Seems queer that a Nation so dependent on internationalism should be promoting selective isolationism.

Actually a some of our finest Irish products are imported directly from the SH .....we also export a fair bit of local surplus to England...particularly Exeter, Leicester and LI.....

Mickado wrote:Maybe if we close our eyes and don't look at sucession for another 4 years, dispand the PAG and place a moritorium on all chat about it, we'll end up in the same situation where we were with props. But i think we've learned our lesson, the short term plan is Munster and Ulster will have only Irish locks, Leinster can have one foreign one, but put a plan in place to produce more locks long term.

After Muller leaves (next season i think) this is what's going to happen. What's the issue?

See the bit in bold is where my concerns lie. I have no faith that Leinster will produce more locks long term. Certianly track record has been poor and having Cullen, Toner, a big name foreign lock and Quinn Roux (none of whom are internationals) will make it near impossible to develop players.

There will also come a time in the not so distant future where I feel Munster will need a foreign second row. O'Connell and O'Callaghan are both 33 years old. Donnacha Ryan turns 29 next month. This idea of "Munster will sort out the locks" is not realistic.

A Nation so dependent on Internationalism?

Queer comment

Oh yeah, poor track record. Brennan, Casey, O'Kelly, Cullen. All Poopie.

Do you think we're not bothering to put effort into finding them, or do you think that people in the east of the country are predisposed to not being good second rows?

Mickado wrote:
After Muller leaves (next season i think) this is what's going to happen. What's the issue?

Muller ( ) has another season to run I think.

Stevenson has really stepped up to the plate this season, Touhy is a standout for us anyways and McComish is playing well too. Henderson will be the best of the lot, when hes done showing Ferris and SOB how to play blindside

Things looking decent up this way in the second row dept....and there's McCarthy at Connacht too... can't see a huge issue....

Mickado wrote:Oh yeah, poor track record. Brennan, Casey, O'Kelly, Cullen. All Poopie.

Do you think we're not bothering to put effort into finding them, or do you think that people in the east of the country are predisposed to not being good second rows?

I think Leinster are not bothered developing them at the moment. They dont want to fall down from Heineken Cup contenders and rather than taking the punt on their players prefer to bring in foreign players.

As for your list of guys only Malcom O'Kelly could really be claimed as Leinster. Cullen developed at Leicester Tigers. He had to leave Leinster to learn his trade. As for Casey thats nonsense. Plays one and a half seasons for Leinster, moves to England for 11 years and he gets labelled as developed by Leinster. Fat chance. Trev wasn't a second row - he states in his book he felt messed about by Leinster and made his name at Toulouse.

Thats like us trying to claim we developed Mike Ross or Sean Cronin or Eoin Reddan. They were briefly with us but we did not develop them. We were unable to develop them and sent them away. Like Leinster did with Trevor Brennan, Leo Cullen and Bob Casey.

Don't want to get too pickey, but Leo Cullen was 2 years with Leicester and about 12 with Leinster.

I know that but his time at Tigers transformed him and Jennings. They went away as fairly average players they came back as very good rugby players with an abundance of leadership.

They have done great work for Leinster but those years of playing week in and week out travelling across England did far more for them than their early seasons at Leinster IMO.

red_stag wrote:I know that but his time at Tigers transformed him and Jennings. They went away as fairly average players they came back as very good rugby players with an abundance of leadership.

They have done great work for Leinster but those years of playing week in and week out travelling across England did far more for them than their early seasons at Leinster IMO.

Are you Mark McCafferty?

Viva le Premiership!!

Actually a some of our finest Irish products are imported directly from the SH .....we also export a fair bit of local surplus to England...particularly

Exeter, Leicester and LI.....

Been a while since you sent much Tigers way. We improved a load sent them back (Leo, Jennings, Johne and Murphy) since then we've only had Niall Morris to keep Geordan company. Time to show some gratitude and send over a couple more for the finishing school. Got an openside and a hooker you fancy improving?

Forget it sam the deal's off...... look at the half arsed job yous did on johne Murphy..... ....

Cant even start for boring Musnter

We get our hookers in South Africa now not the East Midlands. And things have changed since we sent Jennings your way. We don't really do opensides any more. Can I interest you in a 6.5 though?

actually jeno was considered a 6.5 when he arrived back. even played 6 with gleeson at 7

Ah yeah, we don't care about developing a second row, we've managed to develope players all across the rest of the pitch (and Toner is from the academy too of course) but in that second lock position, we just decided we couldn't be bothered. Too easy to buy someone in, that's the Leinster attitude.

Mick. He is just trying to distract from the absence of props in the Munster Academy

That and the fact that the Ireland front row are likely to be the Leinster front row. (Presuming that Healy is OK) and we have 11 props in the squad & academy.