Ireland XV vs Fiji, Match Thread and Build-Up

by **Notch** Mon Nov 12, 2012 3:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

Looking ahead to this game, Eoin Reddan is a doubt apparently but there are no other new injury concerns. Ferris and O'Connell are confirmed out of this and next week.

I've already talked about the issue of this game not being considered a full international which can be found HERE and we should should probably try and keep discussion of that issue to the relevant thread.

I'm very much of the opinion that we should largely keep the same team. I don't see how wholesale changes are going to help prepare the firsts for Argentina. There should of course be a few tweaks (please put Earls back in the back three) but this team needs time on the pitch together. Of course, I think our problems run deeper than a lack of pitch time together but we're in a desperate situation here. We need to beat Argentina and this game has to be treated as a dry run for the week after.

by **rodders** Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:33 pm

Sin é wrote:
PS - nice of Kidney to save Ulster's bacon against Zebre

I thought Neil Patterson saved our bacon?..... Whistle

by clivemcl Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:34 pm

Ha, Heaslip enjoying an apple! crunch crunch slurp!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-gcyZHdjvg

by The Great Aukster Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:59 pm

It's an interesting angle that Kidney denudes Ulster of a teamful of players for a meaningless game and that somehow saves their bacon?

OTOH will he actually release all those Ulster wannabees who have zero chance of getting in the 23 against Los Pumas, to actually save their bacon against Treviso?

by asoreleftshoulder Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:04 pm

rodders wrote:No top 8 isn't guaranteed. Samoa, Scotland and Wales can still leapfrog us I think.

I think the biggest risk against Argentina is to be too conservative. We don't have a great kicking game and the team that faced SA didn't creat much with the ball so I think we need to make changes if we want to win.

It's amazing but we seem to have come full circle under Kidney. This time 4 years ago we were going into a crunch game with the Pumas to secure 8th spot for RWC seedings and here we are again.....

Yeah,if a coach has any ambition he would hope to leave the team in better condition than he found it.Kidney has failed utterly in that regard and the results he has overseen have been awful.The man deserves credit for getting us over the hump of finally winning a Grand Slam but he deserves criticism in equal measure for his failure to use the talent at his disposal,for the quality of player Kidney has had to work with the last three years the results have been an embarassment.

by **profitius** Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:28 pm

rodders wrote:Gilroys second involved some excellent link up play with Zebo too....... I mean how can these guys look so comfortable together but the senior guys who have played together for years look like they've never played together before....

The young players in the squad had the benefit of better coaching. They've been taught good habits compared to the older players. This next generation will be the best yet. The U20s were the only side to beat SA U20s in the JWC. It looks like we'll see a few of those coming through in the next year or so. Its important to limit the amount of NIQs though.

by **Notch** Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:47 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:It's an interesting angle that Kidney denudes Ulster of a teamful of players for a meaningless game and that somehow saves their bacon?

I was confused about that myself Headscratch

by Golden Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:42 pm

Anyone know whats wrong with Sexton?

by Gibson Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:44 pm

Golden wrote:Anyone know whats wrong with Sexton?

Tightened hamstring. Just a precaution.

by Golden Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:49 pm

Ah good the hear. Frightening to think ROG might have started

by Feckless Rogue Mon Nov 19, 2012 3:53 pm

If we were only allowed make one change to the team that played SA, I'd replace D'arcy with Marshall. The need for a new 12 is getting critical. And he looks to be the best option to me. He's young and it could take him a while to get used to test rugby. But I'd fast track him in this year. Who else is there after D'arcy?

I think every player in the backline gave a good account of themselves. McFadden was really good, very physical and fast, even though he was outshone by Gilroy. I'm also a big Fitzgerald fan. Can't wait till he gets back. Hopefully he'll quickly regain the form he had last year in between injuries. He was superb. Finally full of confidence. And provides a spark Ireland need.

Throw in Kearney, Earls, Bowe, Zebo etc. and we really shouldn't be so breathtakingly slow, predictable and unimaginative in attack. We need to do something about the Murray/Sexton combo. They need to start clicking much better or one them has to be dropped.

by Warthog Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:04 pm

Some of those tyros need game time in the centre asap.

Does anyone think Dave Kearney could be moulded into a centre?

by **rodders** Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:07 pm

Yup

.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:10 pm

There was one thing that really bothered me about the match on Saturday. When Jamie Heaslip, Ireland captain laying in front of Irish fans came off the pitch a small section of the crowd booed him. That was really rather sad. It doesn't say much for those fans at all and says a lot about the ingrained parochialism amongst some fans. A real shame.

This isn't about Munster fans or a finger pointing exercise. Maybe if the player was O'Gara of Murray and the match had been played in Dublin or Belfast a small mind less group would have done the same. That doesn't make their actions any more palatable.

by **rodders** Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:15 pm

Terrible Hookie ...I wouldn't even boo an opposition player off the pitch, let alone one of our own... and too many people don't get that when you are watching Ireland play that's what all the players are....save the heckling for the interpros.... Rolling Eyes

by Feckless Rogue Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:15 pm

Definitely think Kearney Jr. could be a centre. Should be tried there for Leinster at some stage.

The reason I think so, is that when you watch him play, it's very clear that he has a really good awareness of what's going on around him at all times. His instinct is to keep the ball alive and pass/offload rather than put the head down and sprint. We have so many potential young wingers, it might make sense for him to bring these attributes to the centre.

He is a bit bigger and more physical than most of our other young wingers. The number of small guys we have is a concern, when you consider the physicality of test rugby. Marshall seems to handle the physical stuff very well too.

by **rodders** Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:17 pm

Breaking news...Sean O'Brien is back training.... Smile

.... hopefully he'll be back in time to get heckled at Ravenhill..... Whistle

by Feckless Rogue Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:35 pm

I remember hearing a story about an England v Ireland underage match. One of the English players threw some insult at SOB like "go back to your potatoes" or something stupid like that. SOB replied "I'll give you some potatoes" and promptly knocked him out and got sent off.

As a result, a lot of the English players who played that day quite like SOB. They thought it was brilliant. Can't remember where I read that, but I'm almost sure I didn't just dream it up. So be warned. Heckling SOB might be bad for your health.

by **rodders** Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:37 pm

ok maybe I'll stick to heckling Reddan and leave SOB to Hookie .... Run

by Sin é Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:40 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:It's an interesting angle that Kidney denudes Ulster of a teamful of players for a meaningless game and that somehow saves their bacon?

Gilroy & Marshall are back-up players for Ulster. You had the very experienced Paddy Wallace (a centrally contracted player) to add a bit of experience to your midfield.

Tom Court is a first choice prop for Ulster (which a lot of Ulster fans were annoyed that he wasn't getting a start against Fiji). You could have had Brady moving over to loosehead instead of being subbed if Court wasn't available. I doubt if you'd have got a penalty try with any of your other props available.

OTOH will he actually release all those Ulster wannabees who have zero chance of getting in the 23 against Los Pumas, to actually save their bacon against Treviso?

Well, may as well have them saving someone's bacon - don't think any of them would save us against Los Pumas.

by Sin é Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:42 pm

Golden wrote:Anyone know whats wrong with Sexton?

He threw a hissy fit about having to sit on the bench. Wink

by MrsP Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:44 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:There was one thing that really bothered me about the match on Saturday. When Jamie Heaslip, Ireland captain laying in front of Irish fans came off the pitch a small section of the crowd booed him. That was really rather sad. It doesn't say much for those fans at all and says a lot about the ingrained parochialism amongst some fans. A real shame.

This isn't about Munster fans or a finger pointing exercise. Maybe if the player was O'Gara of Murray and the match had been played in Dublin or Belfast a small mind less group would have done the same. That doesn't make their actions any more palatable.

Disgusting!

I hope those around them had a "quiet" word and the marshalls (not Peter, Paul, Luke and Paddy) removed them.

Just remembered that at one point the commentary team mistook Chris Henry for Paul Marshall too ( picard

) so that would have been the 5 Marshall brothers all on the pitch together!

by **rodders** Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:48 pm

Sin é wrote:
Golden wrote:Anyone know whats wrong with Sexton?

He threw a hissy fit about having to sit on the bench.

Good job Mafi had left town....he's a loose cannon is young Johnny ..... Whistle

by MrsP Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:50 pm

Were you at the match Sin?

by ME-109 Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:50 pm

MrsP wrote:
Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:There was one thing that really bothered me about the match on Saturday. When Jamie Heaslip, Ireland captain laying in front of Irish fans came off the pitch a small section of the crowd booed him. That was really rather sad. It doesn't say much for those fans at all and says a lot about the ingrained parochialism amongst some fans. A real shame.

This isn't about Munster fans or a finger pointing exercise. Maybe if the player was O'Gara of Murray and the match had been played in Dublin or Belfast a small mind less group would have done the same. That doesn't make their actions any more palatable.

Disgusting!

I hope those around them had a "quiet" word and the marshalls (not Peter, Paul, Luke and Paddy) removed them.

Just remembered that at one point the commentary team mistook Chris Henry for Paul Marshall too ( ) so that would have been the 5 Marshall brothers all on the pitch together!

Were you at the game Hook? Did you hear or witness that or was it a couple of kids? Must say if it happened that would not be great but I cant seriously think it would be anything other than a slagging or a bit of messing if it did happen?

by Warthog Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:55 pm

Sin é wrote:
Golden wrote:Anyone know whats wrong with Sexton?

He threw a hissy fit about having to sit on the bench.

Anyone see Ronan O'GoHome pleading for more CHEAP CAPS today by saying (mind the bogger accent now) "Oh, I don't accept it" (that Sextons the number 1 OH in Ireland)... He was always a laughing stock abroad and is fast becoming one here....

What a joke. Carried by the team for years (Where's Wally??? Minding ROG...) but he is looking for more cheap caps for Ireland.

Has he no shame? Are himself and Kidney trying to win a bet?

by Sin é Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:55 pm

[quote="MrsP"]

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:There was one thing that really bothered me about the match on Saturday. When Jamie Heaslip, Ireland captain laying in front of Irish fans came off the pitch a small section of the crowd booed him. That was really rather sad. It doesn't say much for those fans at all and says a lot about the ingrained parochialism amongst some fans. A real shame.

This isn't about Munster fans or a finger pointing exercise. Maybe if the player was O'Gara of Murray and the match had been played in Dublin or Belfast a small mind less group would have done the same. That doesn't make their actions any more palatable.

How do you know that it was Munster fans who booed Heaslip. Are you suggesting that no one from Ulster or Connacht bothered to go down and support Ireland in Limerick?

Anyway, its not unusual for a bit of tribalism at Ireland games. O'gara wrote in his book that he was used to it, but it was really upsetting for his wife & family (who mentioned being sat in front of some Ulster fans who issued non-stop abuse to ROG throughout a match).

Anyway, this 'Heaslip booing' has been discussed elsewhere and people at the match said he actually got a decent cheer going off which more than likely means that a few people did boo him but were closer to the TV mike. Anyway, isn't Heaslip's Dad a Shannon man.

by Warthog Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:56 pm

Oh, sorry, forgot the Wink

which makes it a joke / alright to slate an Irish player as per the usual muppets on here.

by ME-109 Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:57 pm

Warthog wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Golden wrote:Anyone know whats wrong with Sexton?

He threw a hissy fit about having to sit on the bench.

Anyone see Ronan O'GoHome pleading for more CHEAP CAPS today by saying (mind the bogger accent now) "Oh, I don't accept it" (that Sextons the number 1 OH in Ireland)... He was always a laughing stock abroad and is fast becoming one here....

What a joke. Carried by the team for years (Where's Wally??? Minding ROG...) but he is looking for more cheap caps for Ireland.

Has he no shame? Are himself and Kidney trying to win a bet?

Says yer man from Boyne.... Whistle

by Sin é Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:57 pm

MrsP wrote:

Were you at the match Sin?

No, I wasn't. I live in Dublin, so its easier to go to games here.

by Warthog Mon Nov 19, 2012 4:58 pm

Anyway, isn't Heaslip's Dad a Shannon man.

Well then he shouldn't have been booed... sure if his Dads a Shannon man !!! Wink wink, nudge nudge...

vomit

by MrsP Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:06 pm

No one should be abusing anyone at a rugby match but maybe they were criticising ROG's play rather than just booing?

I know that happens as I have sat at Ireland games surrounded by fans in red booing anyone who wasn't from Munster.

I don't think anyone could have been complaining about Heaslip's play on Saturday, especially when he was leaving the pitch.

by Sin é Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:09 pm

Warthog wrote:
Anyway, isn't Heaslip's Dad a Shannon man.

Well then he shouldn't have been booed... sure if his Dads a Shannon man !!! Wink wink, nudge nudge...

Hookie was claiming that the "ingrained parochialism" was shocking. Just pointing out that you'd hardly expect Young Munster supporters to cheer the son of a Shannon man in Thomond Park. It wouldn't be right! Smile

by ME-109 Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:10 pm

Ah yes...clearly it is the case that there are dastardly Munster fans booing Irish players. There is absolutely no way that an Ulster or Leinster fan would do that (only criticising how certain players play maybe as they are such high minded people.... but they would never boo them).

by Sin é Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:14 pm

MrsP wrote:No one should be abusing anyone at a rugby match but maybe they were criticising ROG's play rather than just booing?

I know that happens as I have sat at Ireland games surrounded by fans in red booing anyone who wasn't from Munster.

I don't think anyone could have been complaining about Heaslip's play on Saturday, especially when he was leaving the pitch.

I recall he said it was "Get O"Gara off, bring Humphs on" non-stop for 80 mins (Humphs had long retired at this stage).

by MrsP Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:18 pm

Oh no DOD!

I am sure that fans from every corner of this island can behave in such a terrible way. There are eejits from each province! I was just recounting my own personal experience.

Just because fans from every Province do it doesn't make it right.

I was merely pointing out the difference between criticising how one of your players is playing and booing your captain off the field when he has played well!

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:18 pm

DOD wrote:Ah yes...clearly it is the case that there are dastardly Munster fans booing Irish players. There is absolutely no way that an Ulster or Leinster fan would do that (only criticising how certain players play maybe as they are such high minded people.... but they would never boo them).

Erm, DOD, the original suggestion above suggested similar was likely to happen in reverse.

Regardless, it's disgusting if it's happening, whoever's doing it - I was ashamed a 10 or so years back when a Canterbury crowd booed Carlos Spencer in a test match because he'd been selected ahead of Andrew Merhtens for the ABs.

As an aside I ducked into this thread to get a respite from the Anglo-Welsh bickering and tripe. You lot are as bad Sad

by **Notch** Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:18 pm

Aw man, I think Sin is heading for one of his periodic meltdowns when reality becomes too hard to distort.

by SecretFly Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:21 pm

Okay, it is close to Panto time.......................so..........in answer to that divil Pete!!!!!

OH no we're not!!!!!.......................... (obligatory Wink

)

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:22 pm

SecretFly wrote:Okay, it is close to Panto time.......................so..........in answer to that divil Pete!!!!!

OH no we're not!!!!!.......................... (obligatory )

by LeinsterFan4life Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:23 pm

Feckless Rogue wrote:I remember hearing a story about an England v Ireland underage match. One of the English players threw some insult at SOB like "go back to your potatoes" or something stupid like that. SOB replied "I'll give you some potatoes" and promptly knocked him out and got sent off.

As a result, a lot of the English players who played that day quite like SOB. They thought it was brilliant. Can't remember where I read that, but I'm almost sure I didn't just dream it up. So be warned. Heckling SOB might be bad for your health.

If thats true, then thats brilliant. Remember what he did to Nyanga in the HC semi in 2011 when he held SOBs jersey back. You definatley shouldn't mess with SOB.

by **Notch** Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:26 pm

Also, it is incredibly disappointing that Heaslip was booed by a handful of fans. But the vast majority of fans for the vast majority of the game were as respectful and sporting as visitors to Thomond Park are used to. They really are a great crowd down in Limerick.

It's a shame about the eejits, but why talk about them. Sure we spend enough time talking directly to them on here Smile

by GunsGerms Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:31 pm

Cant remember any Irish player ever being booed before and didnt notice anything during this match possibly because I was mesmerised by the predominantly red colour eminating from the crowd.

Not sure why anyone would boo Heaslip anyway. Maybe because they fancy him and his designer mo and trendy haircut? Its not like we have a better option at 8 anyway.

POM isnt at the races when it comes to international rugby and there is no one else really.

by MrsP Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:32 pm

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:
DOD wrote:Ah yes...clearly it is the case that there are dastardly Munster fans booing Irish players. There is absolutely no way that an Ulster or Leinster fan would do that (only criticising how certain players play maybe as they are such high minded people.... but they would never boo them).

Erm, DOD, the original suggestion above suggested similar was likely to happen in reverse.

Regardless, it's disgusting if it's happening, whoever's doing it - I was ashamed a 10 or so years back when a Canterbury crowd booed Carlos Spencer in a test match because he'd been selected ahead of Andrew Merhtens for the ABs.

As an aside I ducked into this thread to get a respite from the Anglo-Welsh bickering and tripe. You lot are as bad

Ah Pete!

That's not fair!!

Just show me any examples of Anglo-Welsh bickering on this thread!!!!!!

by Sin é Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:41 pm

Notch wrote:

Aw man, I think we're (myself, Hookie, Pete (leinsterfans), Boyne/Warthog are heading into one of our frequent meltdowns when reality becomes too hard to distort.

Fixed that for you.

by **profitius** Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:51 pm

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:There was one thing that really bothered me about the match on Saturday. When Jamie Heaslip, Ireland captain laying in front of Irish fans came off the pitch a small section of the crowd booed him. That was really rather sad. It doesn't say much for those fans at all and says a lot about the ingrained parochialism amongst some fans. A real shame.

This isn't about Munster fans or a finger pointing exercise. Maybe if the player was O'Gara of Murray and the match had been played in Dublin or Belfast a small mind less group would have done the same. That doesn't make their actions any more palatable.

People at the match said they heard no booing towards Heaslip.

Don't forget it was around the same time the Fijians were throwing cheap shots including squeezing Marshalls testiceles. Now its not beyond the realms of possibility that they were booing a Fijian... again.

by **profitius** Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:53 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
POM isnt at the races when it comes to international rugby and there is no one else really.

Why not? In what way is he coming up short?

by **rodders** Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:53 pm

Sin é wrote:
Notch wrote:

Aw man, I think we're (myself, Hookie, Pete (leinsterfans), Boyne/Warthog are heading into one of our frequent meltdowns when reality becomes too hard to distort.

Fixed that for you.

by GunsGerms Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:14 pm

profitius wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
POM isnt at the races when it comes to international rugby and there is no one else really.

Why not? In what way is he coming up short?

He shows plenty of desire and commitment but just doesn't have enough physical presence to be a decent back row. What's so good about him?

by **Notch** Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:17 pm

profitius wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
POM isnt at the races when it comes to international rugby and there is no one else really.

Why not? In what way is he coming up short?

I don't think he's coming up short, he's just yet to really establish himself. Give him some time.

I think he and Chris Henry are quite similar cases to look at. They are both very well-rounded backrowers who are good at everything and good leaders to boot, but not exceptional at any one facet of the game. They do a good job at international level without every looking like standout players. They won't let us down either.

I like them both and I think they both have a lot to offer us at 7, but I would say we need another ball carrier at 6. Neither of them is big or powerful enough to be really effective ball carriers at this level. Henderson should start at 6 against Argentina. Don't see much reason to drop Henry but it's another very close call and I'm happy either way.

by The Great Aukster Mon Nov 19, 2012 6:26 pm

Sin é wrote:Gilroy & Marshall are back-up players for Ulster. You had the very experienced Paddy Wallace (a centrally contracted player) to add a bit of experience to your midfield.

Tom Court is a first choice prop for Ulster (which a lot of Ulster fans were annoyed that he wasn't getting a start against Fiji). You could have had Brady moving over to loosehead instead of being subbed if Court wasn't available. I doubt if you'd have got a penalty try with any of your other props available.

For those who obviously don't know much about Ulster players!

Gilroy has played in all but one game for Ulster this year - the Zebre one, and Luke Marshall has been in half of them. Also Tuohy, Henderson, Henry, Paul Marshall and Jackson are all regular starters who were involved in the Fiji game (and Trimble and Bowe were with Ireland), so it was very magnanimous of Deccie to release his third choice picks - Court and Fitzpatrick.

Against Zebre the Ulster scrum won plenty of penalties before Court came on and was dominant so it would be wrong to think Ulster wouldn't have won the penalty try without Court. Of course it was good to bring such a great prop off the bench, but if he hadn't been on the bench then Deccie Fitz could have played loosehead as he has done successfully for Ulster before. If Kidney had wanted to keep DF away from Ulster as well then Afoa could have switched as he has done for the ABs, and Macklin would have come on at tighthead. Of course Lutton who is a LH would also be an option, but I wouldn't expect anyone who doesn't follow Ulster to think beyond moving Nigel Brady to prop if Court was absent.

It's a pity from Ireland's POV that Kidney is unlikely to break the habit of a lifetime and pick form players, but every cloud...

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