England Team to Play the Boks

First topic message reminder :

So after a pretty humbling game against Australia we now know that changes definitely need to be made to the starting team to play SA. I'd like to see Lancaster use this game to try out a few bench players and some other squad players before the final game against the AB's.

Making the top four isn't even on the agenda at the moment, what needs to be done now is get a result against either SA or NZ. With the current 23 we aren't going to do this and if we don't try a few changes now then we'll keep backing out of making them until it's too late.

We need greater physicality in the forwards, more control and commitment at the breakdown and players who can draw a man and then pass.

1. Corbisiero- Maybe it's knee jerk to put him straight back in to the starting line up, but he's had two games back for LI now and watching Marler play really highlighted how comfy Corbs was in the 6N's
2. Youngs- He'll benefit from the added power and technique of Corbs alongside him and should have no problem matching the SA packs physicality
3. Cole- Needs to have a better game then Sat, as the most experienced forward in the pack he's going to need to start to get a grip on the guys around him soon and guide them.
4. Launchberry- Has looked comfy when he's come off the bench and will know at least a few of the opposition from his age grade rugby, I can't see him struggling agaisnt them if Eng let him go out and just do what he does best.
5. Parling- We need to have him starting as he works well with Youngs at lineout time, he's also starting to bring his carrying game to Int level
6. Wood- Can help compete against SA on the deck and brings a bit more mongrel to the pack then Johnson.
7. Robshaw- After his worst performance in the Red rose I expect a very good game, needs to hit the rucks more and get more turnovers, must keep Louw out of the game.
8. Waldrom- I really don't think he'll do well but I don't want too many changes, needs to keep hold of the ball and make the right choices more, and needs to work on his ball control at the base.
9. Care- More of the same really, keep kicking well and running when it's on.
10. Flood- You can run and or kick, not just one or other, needs to vary his game a bit more but still Englands best 10 by a mile and he can get a lot better.
11. Monye- Ashton was anonymous against Australia and has done nothing to get straight back in to the team, Monye will bring a lot more physicality to the side and far better defence out wide, he's also a lot better at chasing restarts.
12. Barritt- Needs to try to pass like a 10 or offload in contact more, but we need his tackling.
13. Manu- Just keep taking the ball at full pelt, when he does this he causes problems, keep offloading as well.
14. Sharples- Had a poor game against Oz so I expect a much better game this week, needs to be given some space to work though.
15. Goode- Has to enter the line more and force himself on the game, needs to work on his defence and defensive positioning too, but if he can start passing out to the wide men again we can caue the Boks some problems.

16. Marler
17. Wilson
18. Paice
19. Palmer
20. Haskell
21. Dickson
22. Farrel
23. Joseph

I reckon we'll see that at some point in the next 6 months. It's not impossible that Tuilagi spends a couple of years on the wing before moving back to play IC when he's further developed his basic skills.

DaveM wrote:I reckon we'll see that at some point in the next 6 months. It's not impossible that Tuilagi spends a couple of years on the wing before moving back to play IC when he's further developed his basic skills.

I don't see him ever being an inside centre either, I don't see him developing the core skills to be a good inside centre, he doesn't kick, he hardly ever passes.

Even Nonu or Scott Gibbs can/could through a great pass while labelled as bull dozer centres. Nonu has a pretty good kick on him too.

But both had a centre to compliment their skills too, Nonu with Smith, Gibbs with Bateman or Guscott.

Get tuilagi on the wing, Twelvetrees could be the new Will greenwood if your lucky, him and Lowe could be a great partnership for the future... But with the squad you have at the moment Id go with Twelvetrees and Farrell

Corbisiero
Youngs
Cole (stop giving away penalties)
Launchbury
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Morgan

Youngs
Flood
Joseph
Barritt
Tuilagi
Ashton
Goode

Subs: Paice, Vunipola, Wilson, Palmer, Waldrom, Care, Farrell, Brown

Do we really believe there are no other options at Hooker? I know Youngs needs more time to develop, but against a top team isn't the right place, methinks.

Replacing Waldrom is a given, at least for me. Morgan had a good season last year. These were good building blocks, and to not start him now, makes no sense to me.

I am still not convinced Wood is back to his best. I was looking for him to play for England in the 6 Nations, if fully recovered. When healthy and playing his usual game, he does provide what England need.

Maesteg,

Yes Daly, Lowe etc arent in the squad but ala Launchbury they could still have been called up for games.

If we are going to look at changing the 12-13 combo then for me keep Tuilagi and change Twelvetrees for Barritt. Then you have a player at 12 whos improving every game..has been a defensive leader for Glos...and has the passing ability to put Tuilagi into gaps...or miss him completely if required.

Finally hooker is interesting.
Hartely is quit obviously out on his own...and we are seeing just how important he is now.

Youngs has done fairly well...
I always thought Linsday at Wasps might have beent eh one...but i confes to not seeing many recent games of his so cant comment on his form...or progression.
And dont mention Jaime George....

Haskell, for me, has to come in at No 8, with Wood 6 and Robshaw 7. I think that give us the physicality we need for the next 2 games.

Manu has to move to the wing with JJ coming into the centre. They could always swap when defensive duty calls.

Corbs hopefully will come back in. Launchberry will start, and again hopefully, Lawes will be on the bench.

Youngs reminds me too much of Lee Mears... too short, too weak, loses possession, misses tackles, gives away silly penalties.

He just isn't test standard and never will be. His throwing is fine but he doesn't have that bite of Hartley/Thompson. Lucky that Bismarck isn't playing on Saturday... it would be lambs to the slaughter.

ENG should stop putting him in as a project player...Jason Robinson was a project player but he always had class and never had such deficencies.

Why is everyone calling Manu a winger. He's barely ever played there for the Tigers...and from all accounts he was quite poor.

And Corbs coming back in is a definate bonus...HOWEVER...he has played one and a half games for LI...and the reports were nothing special...
You also then drop Marler without a chance of rectifying his performance and showing he is capable...and look what happened to Tait and Allen. Dumped after one performance.

Let the front row have another shot. IF they get beaten again then we know there are issues...and i suspect that would actually be coming from Youngs not Marler and a front row of Marler, Hartley and Cole would be much stronger.

"Youngs reminds me too much of Lee Mears... too short, too weak, loses possession, misses tackles, gives away silly penalties."

Whilst i await to make my judgement on him - he's massively inexperienced at any level in this position...i think to say he's like lee mears is harsh...mears was lightweight...but Youngs is a little tank...

The thing is though....he's competing against a lot of BIG tanks....

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Let the front row have another shot. IF they get beaten again then we know there are issues...and i suspect that would actually be coming from Youngs not Marler and a front row of Marler, Hartley and Cole would be much stronger.

The Marler, Hartley, Cole front row held up fine against the Boks in South Africa. In fact in the second test Marler had already started to get the upper hand by the time Corbisiero came on, and turned over a South Africa scrum just before going off.

maestegmafia wrote:Ashton and Sharples have been pretty average for England over the last year, Tuilagi has all the attributes to be a world class winger, and none to be a decent centre other than bulk.

...

Tulagi would score more out wide with two good centres inside him.

Tuilagi already scores a try every two games for England where he is. His passing and offloading is improving, but often when people criticise him for not passing it wouldn't actually achieve anything anyway. There's no point just shunting the ball down the line to someone who is isolated, man-marked and less strong in contact. I think if England can start getting quicker ball and sharpening up their distribution in the 9,10,12 channels then Tuilagi will look less one-dimensional.

Marler is not a big time scrummager. He never has been, people like him because he's a good ball carrier.... but that's not the core responsibilities, its a bonus.

Hayman, Sheridan, Jones, Cole, Du Randt, Leonard and near every prop ever to play for France in the last 10 years (they're the very best) aren't/were the best because they scored lots of tries.

Against the boks they will suffer if Marler doesn't up his game. He needs a conditioning coach for starters, he's too small at the moment. Personally I think he was capped too early.

If AUS got one over on Marler is anyone confident that he can make amends vs. SA???? They're a whole new league in terms of scrummaging.

Not if CJ v d Linde props up.

He is so over the hill it is embarressing.

So the Boks front row will comprise CJvdL, Chilliboy and one other?


Oh and send Ruan back to Ulster and bring back Morne steyn.


Thanks

fa0019 wrote:Marler is not a big time scrummager. He never has been, people like him because he's a good ball carrier.... but that's not the core responsibilities, its a bonus.

Hayman, Sheridan, Jones, Cole, Du Randt, Leonard and near every prop ever to play for France in the last 10 years (they're the very best) aren't/were the best because they scored lots of tries.

Against the boks they will suffer if Marler doesn't up his game. He needs a conditioning coach for starters, he's too small at the moment. Personally I think he was capped too early.

If AUS got one over on Marler is anyone confident that he can make amends vs. SA???? They're a whole new league in terms of scrummaging.

I HATE the term he is an amazing ball carrier and decent in the scrum...i dont care if he can run...i want a scrummager.

And whilst agree Marler was criticised heavily for his scrummaging when he came on the scene, he has improved quite alot under the tutorship of Rowntree and this is shown with some impressive club performances and a good summer in SA. He is still not the real deal...and would you expect a prop to be at 22/23? He was schooled v a pretty intelligent Oz front row...but will learn from that...

Corbs (who is first choice) is just returning from injury with some average performances for LI, and i still think Marler is ahead of Vunipola...so we need to give him a chance. His scrummaging will continue to imporve.

I'd send Marler over to Mrs Vunipola's/Mrs Tuilagi's house a few nights a week until the 6N to beef him up a little... must be in the cooking.

I don’t think we should be over the top in our criticism of Marler on the basis of one very poor performance. It is worth remembering that he has already faced the Springboks down in South Africa and wasn’t shown up. On Saturday, he wasn’t helped by the ref missing the Aussie binding on his arm and having quite an underpowered second row behind him. It’s a bruising experience for him and I’m sure he’ll learn from it.

Ultimately though, I agree with a lot of what has been written, Marler is still a little green/ underpowered and Corbisiero would be my starter for the next couple of years at least.

However going back to Saturday, Corbisiero was injured and Marler was the last (good) man standing. I know Mako came on and played well, but you wouldn’t necessarily have wanted him to start as part of such an inexperienced team. Who would have fared any better?

Sheridan would have been a nice option, but it doesn't seem like it's going to happen for him again.

Turns out Marler suffered a grade 1 tear of his MCL during the first half. Not too serious but possibly explains why he didn't look at full strength.

Possibly...but lets just say he's had an invaluable lesson about the work at the coalface...and is all part of his progression....

Does that affect his chance of starting on Saturday? That would mean yet another young LH starting...

Just aswell we have quality there...god help us if it had been TH...

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Let the front row have another shot. IF they get beaten again then we know there are issues...and i suspect that would actually be coming from Youngs not Marler and a front row of Marler, Hartley and Cole would be much stronger.

Agree completely with this (although injury will now force Marlers replacement).

If we're going to pick a young side with potential and give them time to learn from their mistakes we must give them that time! A very young and injury struck front row was out thought by a far more experienced Australia scrum - not really the end of these players England careers as many seem to think.

Given Marlers injury I'd like to see Corbs start and keep Vunipola on the bench giving us:

1.Corbs 2.Youngs 3.Cole, 16.Paice 17.Vunipola 18.Wilson

I'd Drop Manu onto the bench. He needs to go onto the naughty step till he gets some peripheral vision and develops an offloading pass that isn't a Pie throw.

Why should he be selected to start when he can't even do the basics in that position.

He did actually pass vs Fiji, but like Robshaw the pass was too early and the defenders weren't committed. Manu has to have people committed to defend vs him, if he can play a bit more heads up and run angles with an eye to offload he'll double his effectiveness to the point that he'd get two people marking him if he doesn't get the ball from Barritt.

Changes for the Boks{-

1. Paice in place of Youngs. Youngs is too small to be scrummaging against big boys. He could get hurt.
2. Monye for Sharples. Defensively Sharples is way too weak to rise to the Boks kicking game. Sharples will be targeted and get slaughtered.
3. Brown for Goode. Brown is the form 15 in the AP. His defence of the high ball is superb and he always gets over the gain line when counter attacking. Brown is a must for his defence and attack.
4. Marler was bossed. If any of our other Loose heads are stronger at scrum time then they should play.
5. Launchbury for Palmer. Palmer looks too nice on the pitch to be a test second row. Launchbury is very fit and puts himself about.

All the others to remain. Ashton is then the only weak link defensively.

Its not daft to see that they need to take the 3 points when on offer if the game is close. NONE of the top 3 sides are easy to score tries against so taking the 3 when available is a must. Could anybody think Martin Johnson and Johnny Wilkinson would do otherwise in 2003. Winning is what matters. Not the tries/scoreline. One point will do.

England need more composure in the closing stages. They played good enough rugby to be in touch with Aus but losing their composure costs them the match. England blinked first. Ben Youngs is a hot head when things get twitchy.

Finally, the boks physical challenge will be immense. They blow teams away in a 20 minute spell of pure aggressive running. If we can't tackle them then we won't win. Simples. Barritt and Manu must stay in the centre.

Agree with the changes englandglory, except for substituting Youngs. He missed a tackle, but I reckon he'll bounce back. His carrying is excellent when he gets the ball, and that could be a real asset against the Boks. His scrummaging is also very good usually, and part of me suspects that the scrum issues were down to Marler's partially torn MCL.

Oh, one other change! Wood for Johnson.

Wood looked very good when he came on I thought, and is very physical even though he's not the biggest. His graft and breakdown work will be valuable.

Yes Blues. I wouldn't be unhappy to see Wood start either. I just hope the coaches think about 3 things this week.

1. The Boks kicking game. We must be faultless in the back 3 area.
2. The Boks power play. They will turn on a 20 minute spell at some point where it will be all hands to the defensive pump. It could be right at the start or anywhere else in the game.
3. Selecting a team of the best defenders. There will be no room for lightweights in that department next Saturday.

The questions are firs tof all though...

Is Marler's injury bad...does he miss the game through it?
Is Hartley fit?
How is Lawes..is he fit...playing.....still injured. Id love to see him in the engine room with Launchbury.
Corbs has played a one and a half games...but has been ok...nothing more.

I think there will be two changes Wood for Johnson and Launchbury for Palmer....and im concerned how much damage Pietersen will do....him and Alberts were the two that really ripped us to bits in SA...and i dont see anything that tells me it wont happen again....

3. Selecting a team of the best defenders. There will be no room for lightweights in that department next Saturday..

Well this is a critical one...we need to stop Alberts, Pietersen first up (we couldnt do that in the summer)...then all the rest of them powering on after them....

Lawes will be a miss...someone like Garvey in this game could make a big difference..and i hope Launchbury will start...

First time tackles boys!

englandglory4ever wrote:Yes Blues. I wouldn't be unhappy to see Wood start either. I just hope the coaches think about 3 things this week.

1. The Boks kicking game. We must be faultless in the back 3 area.
2. The Boks power play. They will turn on a 20 minute spell at some point where it will be all hands to the defensive pump. It could be right at the start or anywhere else in the game.
3. Selecting a team of the best defenders. There will be no room for lightweights in that department next Saturday.

Agree with all those 3 points, especially the one in bold. England's kick chase was non-existent over the summer, and this gave Habana and Pietersen WAY too much time and tempo. Chase it down, and use the hang time to put a physical stamp on the game.


Concerning the Bok's power play- England seriously need to step it up. Their complete lack of physciality and strength in the tackle needs to improve drastically. Our big players are being made to look weak by other teams' smaller ones. Quite frankly it's embarrassing.

So much to work on this week, I just hope there's time.

Oh, a 4th point that I've been trying to hammer home all day.

Take the ball at pace to break the line. No more static running.

Injury update from South Africa


JP Pietersen has a mild groin strain and might not play on the weekend.

Not good news considering Frans Steyn and Habana is already in the injury list.

That's bad news for the Boks Biltong, from what I;ve seen JP's been playing well these AIs.

Yeah without Habana he was the only guy you could expect would run through gaps from deep and make 50 meters, now I fear it will be closed shop, kick and chase this weekend.

Who do you think we be your wingers? And centres at that?

Geez, there aren't any on tour except for Mvovo.

Ah, well his last appearance at Twickenham wasn't too bad I seem to remember! Glided through 4 terrible attempted tackles for a nice score?

Pretty worried that the Boks are going to spank us now

Marler will sit out it seems.
I can't wait to see Tuilagi vs JDV again.

bluestonevedder wrote:Oh, a 4th point that I've been trying to hammer home all day.

Take the ball at pace to break the line. No more static running.

Second this with everything I've got! Nothing frustrates me more watching England play than when a player (usually forward) calls for or is given the ball unnecessarily when they are static. You will only go backwards or lose the ground from scrum half to where you are at best. One of the first things you're ever taught in rugby is to take the ball at pace, I therefore find it incredibly annoying when a pro player fails to do this.

Robshaw was guilty of this on a lot of occasions on Saturday. Even if he's trying to act as a first receiver to move the point of attack to another player this is pointless if he's standing still because it makes him and therefore whoever he offloads to very easy to defend against!

Looks like Marler will miss Saturday and may be out for NZ as well.

For people wanting to pick different centres - try and think how more lightweight options would fare with the slovenly pace at which England could secure the ball. Not only was it slow it failed to tie in as many aussies as it took our guys to get it.

The upshot is the Aussies always had a plethora of defenders. Perhaps I am guilty of club bias but every time Manu had the ball the wingers had two men covering them - so the option was for him to run into contact and look to offload (and if you watch the tape his head keeps turning to find anyone offering themself up for an offload) or let sharples try and run through Cummins.

We lost the breakdown battle and that proved crucial. Even then we coul dhave sneaked an undeserved win.

I wouldn't go as far as some of the criticism of Tuilagi has gone, it certainly wasn't on for him to pass/offload all the time, and part of why he is there is to back himself to smash through, but there were definitely times when the blinkers went down when they definitely shouldn't have. An example of this for me was on the 55th minute of the weekend's game when he had Ashton charging up the wing outside him in space but he didn't even look, just turned into the defensive line.

Regarding the forwards' static play, that's definitely a direct result of our continued lack of dynamism at the breakdown. Forward support play is poor, meaning few are on hand for offloads or to clear out hard and fast if the player hits the deck, meaning slow ball and players standing out wide waiting for ball as opposed to being able to continue to roll round and hit the ball at pace. Far too often I saw no one at the breakdown at all and the SH fighting to secure posession against the Aussie backrow. This is the number one issue to address for the Bok game, because if it wasn't great against Australia, lord knows the Boks will have a field day.

Barritt and Tuilagi is never the longterm answer for England - they are two bigs lumps lacking the creativity you need if you want to be a top class side. I'd give them one more go this weekend, but I suspect it will be the last time we see them together in the centres. We don't pick centres primarily because of their defence - there are plenty of other centres who know how to defend and who also bring far more to the table in terms of passing and creativity e.g. Twelevtrees and Lowe. SA are not a great attacking side, and we should be thinking of more than who are our best defenders when picking the team.

I'm not sure who I expect to be moved on first. Tuilagi to the wing is attractive - I can't see any reason why he couldn't do a job on the left and their his lack of vision wouldn't really matter. On the other hand it might be interesting to see how Tuilagi would do alongside a creative IC like Twelvetrees. On balance I think I'd try Tuilagi on the wing first.

Or Barritt - Tuilagi may be outstanding on Saturday. We'll see.

Does Tuilagi have the skill set to play on the wing. Haven't seen him play there often for the Tigers recently. Concern would be his positioning as I can see SA targeting him with their kicking game if he plays there. Coming off a wing for a crash ball would be interesting though!

Brian Ashton reckons he should move back to the wing. I see the Independent are querying whether he'll be in the starting line-up by next summer - hinting that a Twelvetrees, JJ partnership is the way to go unless Tuilagi can significantly improve his game.

king_carlos wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Oh, a 4th point that I've been trying to hammer home all day.

Take the ball at pace to break the line. No more static running.

Second this with everything I've got! Nothing frustrates me more watching England play than when a player (usually forward) calls for or is given the ball unnecessarily when they are static. You will only go backwards or lose the ground from scrum half to where you are at best. One of the first things you're ever taught in rugby is to take the ball at pace, I therefore find it incredibly annoying when a pro player fails to do this.

Robshaw was guilty of this on a lot of occasions on Saturday. Even if he's trying to act as a first receiver to move the point of attack to another player this is pointless if he's standing still because it makes him and therefore whoever he offloads to very easy to defend against!

I can't get my head round it, but i was thinking as to why we looked so static. Obviously the Oz line speed was very good, but do you think we would have actually benefitted from hitting just round the ruck fringes a little more. I know they were well set most times but a pop pass onto a guy steaming at pace seems a better bet than one passed 2 or 3 metres if in that time the defence has just moved up and swamped them. It is about not hitting the ball at pace, but also preventing the opposition cutting the space. We need to mix it up a bit more.

DaveM wrote:Brian Ashton reckons he should move back to the wing. I see the Independent are querying whether he'll be in the starting line-up by next summer - hinting that a Twelvetrees, JJ partnership is the way to go unless Tuilagi can significantly improve his game.

I would genuinely like to see that and have been thinking about that for a while. It might be a little on the small side with JJ but Tuilagi just doesn't seem to have the vision. It's a tough one, i want to give Tuilagi a chance but ditto JJ and Twelvetrees. Maybe Start Twelvetrees and Manu and bring JJ on with Manu onto the wing. Ach, who knows!

But Hood how many times did you actually see an England forward steaming in at pace..in any angle...even our Captain took the ball frequently almost walking...a complete waste of time...

I think everyones being very harsh on Tuilagi....

Corbisiero
Youngs
Cole
Launchbury
Parling
Wood
Robshaw
Waldrum

Care
Flood
Monye(He is capable of a great Game against SA , Sharples was a defensive liability)
Barritt
Tuilagi
Ashton
Goode

Subs: Paice, Vunipola, Wilson, Palmer, Johnson, Youngs, Farrell, JJ

Tuilagi has areas to seriously improve (decision making most obviously) but I just can't understand why people would suggest dropping him or moving him out of position at this stage. He's been the most effective attacking player that we've brought in for years and has the potential to be even better. In terms of ball carrying, tackling and breakdown work none of the other centre options will ever get close to his level, whereas he probably can improve his distribution and decision making to reach their's.

Twelvetrees, Joseph and Lowe could all be great players in time, but dropping or moving Tuilagi for them after one frustrating loss sounds a bit too reminiscent of our unsuccesful selection policy post-2004 to me.

GeordieFalcon wrote:But Hood how many times did you actually see an England forward steaming in at pace..in any angle...even our Captain took the ball frequently almost walking...a complete waste of time...

This is true.