Wales v All Blacks Match thread, Poll, and Previews

[maestegmafia]

First topic message reminder :

So this week saw the fans calls for players unused the week before who are in form this season answered and we lost to Samoa, we also lost more players to injury.

So what next...?

Wales offered little in impetus yet again. Few of the form players made a difference against Samoa. Wales have to make a massive improvement in every aspect of their game for next weeks match vs the ABs but what are your suggestions...???

Wales team:
Leigh Halfpenny; Alex Cuthbert, Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, George North; Rhys Priestland, Mike Phillips; Paul James, Matthew Rees, Aaron Jarvis, Bradley Davies, Luke Charteris, Ryan Jones, Sam Warburton (captain), Toby Faletau

Replacements:
Ken Owens, Gethin Jenkins, Scott Andrews, Aaron Shingler, Justin Tipuric, Tavis Knoyle, James Hook, Scott Williams


New Zealand team:
Israel Dagg, Cory Jane, Conrad Smith, Ma'a Nonu, Julian Savea, Daniel Carter, Aaron Smith, Kieran Read, Richie McCaw, Liam Messam, Sam Whitelock, Luke Romano, Owen Franks, Andrew Hore, Tony Woodcock.

Replacements: Dane Coles, Wyatt Crockett, Charlie Faumuina, Brodie Retallick, Victor Vito, Piri Weepu, Aaron Cruden, Ben Smith.

[Cyril]

England on the other hand looked against France like their gruelling games against Scotland, Argentina and Georgia had taken too much out of them...

England were pretty awful in the World Cup. No argument there

[maestegmafia]

From ESPN

"If Carter does not start his place will go to Aaron Cruden because the other option - Beauden Barrett - has been nursing sore ribs this week. Cruden's promotion from the bench would likely see the versatile Piri Weepu offer cover at both fly-half and scrum-half."

[maestegmafia]

Interesting article on ESPN...



Longevity and inexperience
By John Griffiths, November 21, 2012


Welcome to the latest edition of Ask John where renowned rugby historian John Griffiths will answer any rugby-related query you have!

So, if there's something you've always wanted to know about the game we love but didn't know who to ask, or you think you can stump our expert - then get involved by sending us a question.



In this edition, John looks at leading Welsh captains, brothers playing Tests for different countries, poor Grand Slam follow-ups, inexperienced England Test sides and New Zealand's senior surviving Test player.

Who has captained Wales most often in Test matches? David Rees, England

Ryan Jones has captained Wales most often in Tests, overtaking Ieuan Evans's record in the defeat by Samoa last Friday. Evans had held the record since the 1990s when he overtook the legendary Arthur Gould. The top ten Welsh captains of all time (to November 19 2012) are as follows:

29 - R P Jones (2008 to 2012)
28 - I C Evans - (1991 to 1995)
22 - R Howley (1998 to 1999)
22 - C L Charvis (2002 to 2004)
21 - G Thomas (2003 to 2007)
19 - J M Humphreys (1995 to 2003)
18 - A J Gould (1889 to 1897)
17 - S K Warburton (2011 to 2012)
14 - W J Trew (1907 to 1913)
14 - D C T Rowlands (1963 to 1965)

Cornelius Dirksen recently won his first cap for the USA. His brother Hanno is gunning for a Wales call-up based on residency. How many other brothers have represented different national sides? Ian Williams, United States

Cornelius Dirksen made his Test debut for the United States in the win against Russia at Colwyn Bay earlier this month. He also played against Tonga last weekend. As you say, his brother could play for Wales by qualifying on residency. Their uncle was Corra Dirksen who played on the wing for South Africa in ten Tests in the 1960s.

The following is a list of brothers who have played Tests for different countries. (This list is restricted to brothers where at least one of them played for a leading nation):

Astons for England & South Africa
The following is a list of brothers who have played Tests for different countries. (This list is restricted to brothers where at least one of them played for a leading nation):

Alatinis for New Zealand & Tonga
Astons for England & South Africa
Bachops for New Zealand, Samoa & Japan
Barbieris for Italy & Canada
Cockbains for Australia & Wales
Coopers for New Zealand & Croatia
Fagans for Ireland & England
Gordons New Zealand & Japan
Hancocks for Wales & England
Lunds for England & Norway
Ma'afus for Australia, Fiji & Tonga
MacDonalds for Scotland & South Africa
Makas for New Zealand & Tonga
Mikas for New Zealand & Samoa
So'oialos for New Zealand & Samoa
Tiatias for New Zealand & Samoa
Timanis Australia & Tonga
Tuilagis for England & Samoa
Umagas for New Zealand & Samoa
Vissers for Scotland & The Netherlands
Yachvilis for France & Georgia

(Readers are invited to add to this list)

Has any country had such a poor international run as Wales after winning the Grand Slam? Ben Davies, Wales

Although Wales beat the Barbarians in a cap match after taking the Grand Slam earlier this year, they have lost five successive internationals with New Zealand and Australia next up.

All told, there have been 37 Five/Six Nations Grand Slams since France began playing Test rugby in the first decade of the Twentieth Century. The only side to win a Grand Slam and then experience a run of more than five international defeats is Scotland. After winning the 1984 Grand Slam they lost six on the trot: to Romania (barely a couple of months later) and then Australia, Ireland, France, Wales and England as they followed the Slam with a Whitewash in the 1985 Five Nations.

After years of striving France didn't win their first Grand Slam until 1968. Like Wales (against the Barbarians) they then played a meaningless capped Test (beating Czechoslovakia 19-6 in Prague) as a warm-up for a summer tour to New Zealand and Australia.

That Grand Slam side then lost ten in a row - three Tests in NZ, a one-off Test in Australia, two Tests in France against SA and a Test against Romania in Bucharest at the end of the year before losing their first three Five Nations games of 1969 - against Scotland, Ireland and England. Eventually they squeezed a draw against Wales in Paris in the final game of the 1969 Championship.

How inexperienced was Stuart Lancaster's side against Fiji compared to England sides of the recent past? LB, England


The England team that played Australia in 1984 © PA Photos
Enlarge
Measuring experience by cap total before taking the field (so that the 1871 side against Scotland had a total of zero), England's team against Fiji was the least experienced for ten years. The run-on fifteen against Fiji had a total of 215 caps among their ranks before kick-off. That figure was 18 fewer than the run-on total for Lancaster's first Test in charge of England, against Scotland at Murrayfield earlier this year.

Sir Clive Woodward called on 170 caps-worth of experience for his first game in charge when England drew with Australia at Twickenham in November 1997 and the lowest England total in the professional era was the 104 for the one-off Test against Argentina in Buenos Aires in 2002 when Geoff Appleford, Phil Christophers and Alex Codling were among the new caps.

Towards the end of Clive Woodward's time he was able to name a run-on fifteen that had amassed more than 600 caps for the 2003 RWC Final in Sydney against Australia. When Martin Johnson, Lancaster's predecessor, took charge for his last match, the RWC quarter-final defeat against France in Auckland in October 2011, there were 587 caps among the run-on side.

The lowest cap total of the last thirty years was 62 when Nigel Melville captained England (on his debut) against Andrew Slack's Wallabies at Twickenham in 1984. Among the England new boys that day were Stuart Barnes, Gareth Chilcott, Nigel Redman and Rob Lozowski. John Carleton (25 caps) and Gary Pearce (15) were the only members of that side who took the field with ten or more caps to their names. They lost 19-3 to a Grand Slam side that included youngsters Michael Lynagh and Nick Farr-Jones.

Who has succeeded the late Bob Scott as New Zealand's oldest surviving Test player? Denis O'Brien, Ireland

Bob Scott passed away at his Coromandel home on November 16 at the age of 91.

He is succeeded by Wally Argus as the oldest surviving New Zealand Test player. Argus, also 91, is three months younger than Bob Scott.

Scott, Argus and Fred Allen (who died earlier this year at the age of 92) were among the 15 new caps in New Zealand's first post-war Test team, against Australia at Dunedin in September 1946. The three of them had been star performers with the "Kiwis" - the New Zealand Forces rugby team later dubbed the "Khaki All Blacks" - that toured Europe in the first winter after World War Two.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Which may mean Aaron Smith starts as Weepu is cover for flyhalf. Shame about Barrett. I was looking forward to seeing him in his preferred flyhalf position. i think this kid is the future.

[maestegmafia]

Kia we will keep an eye out for him in the future. Another chip off the block kiwi flyhalf?

[kiakahaaotearoa]

He just looks composed and not daunted by playing at test level. He had a great season with the Hurricanes and seems to take the right options. A big future ahead of him and plenty to work on but he makes me feel like Carter's injuries are not so important.

Cruden needs to be protected by his forwards better. This kid is pretty useful too and invariably sets up a player around him by drawing in defenders and offloading a player into space. His kicking hasn't been as accurate though and his form has been up and down in black this year. I'd like him to have a good game as like Aaron Smith I think it'd do his confidence a world of good to get a good performance under his belt against decent opposition. Both aforementioned players still have a lot of potential growth in front of them and an assured performance will make future appearances undoubtedly an easier experience.

[wales606]

Which may mean Aaron Smith starts as Weepu is cover for flyhalf. Shame about Barrett. I was looking forward to seeing him in his preferred flyhalf position. i think this kid is the future.

Aaron Smith is starting anyway though?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20455372

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Wow they heard me. I didn't know there was a live feed to the AB management on here!

Cheers wales606. Things take time to filter properly into football mad Madrid. Even rugby postings on the internet take longer to arrive here as they have to break through the football hysteria. I expect to see Weepu cover 10 and T-K to cover 9 then.

[GunsGerms]

Wow they heard me. I didn't know there was a live feed to the AB management on here!

Cheers wales606. Things take time to filter properly into football mad Madrid. Even rugby postings on the internet take longer to arrive here as they have to break through the football hysteria. I expect to see Weepu cover 10 and T-K to cover 9 then.

Where do you watch rugby in Madrid?

[kiakahaaotearoa]

God Bless the invention of the Irish pub and Sky Sports feeds. Canal + coverage is another option but less reliable as you have to watch it in a bar that can be kidnapped by football at any moment. Plenty of choices with Irish pubs actually or streaming at home if it's an early match.

[GunsGerms]

Madrid has a ridiculous amount of Irish pubs. I was a bouncer in one for a while. There are even some bars that arent Irish at all but sort of pretend to be for some reason like Fontana de Oro.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

So you were a gorila! Small world.

[GunsGerms]

So you were a gorila! Small world.

I was more of a doorman. At O'Neills, C/ Principe.

[kiakahaaotearoa]

Nice. I usually go to James Joyce, c/ Alcala.

[GunsGerms]

I know the one but never really went there.

[Guest]

Here you go Wales, grow a pair and don't be afraid, listen to he words of a real champion



“Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in the world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing.”
― Muhammad Ali

[gregortree]

Great News for Wales & England:
AB 5 letter line out codes found.
Bad news:
Not cracked them yet.

"Britain's top code-breakers say they are stumped by a secret code found on the leg of a dead pigeon.The remains of the bird were found in a chimney in Surrey with a message from World War II attached. Experts at the intelligence agency GCHQ have been struggling to decipher the message since they were provided with it a few weeks ago.They say it may be impossible to decode it without more information from the ANZAC Corps."

[gregortree]

Here you go Wales, grow a pair and don't be afraid, listen to he words of a real champion


.... thrown around by small men .....
― Muhammad Ali

Yeah, way to go Wales !

[Cyril]

Here you go Wales, grow a pair and don't be afraid, listen to he words of a real champion



“Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in the world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing.”
― Muhammad Ali

I prefer this one.

"I am the one who got myself fat, who did all the eating. So I had to take full responsibility for it."
― Kirstie Alley

[maestegmafia]

The good doctor’s diagnosis was spot on. All of Wales has been asking the question, ‘Where has it all gone wrong?’ for the national side who reached a World Cup semi-final and won a Grand Slam but have now lost five Tests on the trot, with world champions New Zealand to come on Saturday.

[maestegmafia]

Well, its a beautiful morning here great for free running rugby... I am in italy though.

Whats the weather like in Wales, will the roof be closed...???

[emack2]

Interesting comment from Cass the gas,I was listening to the First Liston fight on radio.Cass was shouting "throw the towel in,throw the towel in.Liston mysteriously did`nt come out for the next round.
Liston was a horrible Man,no Boxer and did`nt deserve to be World Champion


BUT,He went into the "Tank "for Ali TWICE. Ali` was a great champion,but it was built on a lie.
Had Liston continued there was a very real possibility he would have been assinated by the "Black Power "movement.
Liston during a prison riot it took several warders with Billy Clubs to subdue him
no way did he dislocate his shoulder punching Ali.Even if he did he would have boxed on.

[Guest]

Not massively into boxing just a casual arm chair fan,
but am i right in thinking Sonny Liston was the boxer who didn't know his real age? also a shorter powerful man he had a long reach?

Wondering if you could help me identify a boxer from over a century ago,he said to be defensively superb because being a slave as a child he was forced to box with a sack over his head for the entertainment of his keepers.

[bedfordwelsh]

WOW what a wonderful inciteful forward thinking coach Howley is. Just read a report where he states he knows Wales have to start well today against the ABs if we want to keep.

All other coahces but be thinking wow why didn't I think of that.

[maestegmafia]

WOW what a wonderful inciteful forward thinking coach Howley is. Just read a report where he states he knows Wales have to start well today against the ABs if we want to keep.

All other coahces but be thinking wow why didn't I think of that.

Oh come on mate, anyone could have said that and you wouldn't jump on it. Just because Howley is being made culpable for Wales by all the posters on here doesn't mean he is.

Wales are playing badly, the players are out of form. Everyone is being blamed but them. REgionalisation, the WRU, one coach not another...!

Its the lads on the blwdi pitch who need to front up and get on with it. They are all old enough to play rugby, they should get their own heads sorted out and get on and do their job.

[maestegmafia]

Want some real doom and gloom...?

Wales v New Zealand (Sat)

AUTUMN INTERNATIONAL
Venue: Millennium Stadium Date: Sat, 24 November Kick-off: 1715 GMT
Coverage: Watch live on BBC Two from 1710; listen to commentary on BBC Radio 5 live; reports & live text commentary on BBC Sport website and mobiles

MATCH PREVIEW

"It's not a physical issue, it's just getting the head right," said returning Wales coach Warren Gatland, with a deflated nation reeling from shock back-to-back defeats by Argentina and Samoa. Positivity must be coaxed quickly given their alarming slide: Wales came into this series looking to break into the world's top four, but are now in danger of failing to hang on to the eighth place they have slipped to - and even falling further, which would mean a disastrous draw for the 2015 World Cup.
Expert analysis



Jonathan Davies

Rugby Union Analyst
The good thing about playing the All Blacks is that Wales know they have to raise their level of performance otherwise they could be humiliated. That is a huge incentive for them. Expectations in the nation will be low as well, so maybe it's a good time for them to play New Zealand.

The main thing will be how the two teams do in the contact areas. New Zealand recycled the ball quickly against Scotland, whereas Wales did not manage that against Argentina and Samoa. They know what they have to do there, they need to carry the ball, look at their backline and bring their wingers into the game.

Just when you need a confidence boost, a genuine opportunity to put things right and get a result on the board, you are faced with the petrifying prospect of taking on New Zealand. What more can be said about the All Blacks? The world champions are unbeaten in 19 Tests, have not lost a tour match in Europe for 10 years, have only failed to score a try once in their past 50 matches, while star players Dan Carter (who pulled out of the team on Friday) and Richie McCaw are hitting new heights when most critics did not think it was possible for them to get any better. Oh, and Wales are the scalp they really want the most.
The late injury withdrawal of the dangerous George North is a blow, but the hosts still have enough stardust. They won't lack for motivation either, with the second Six Nations title and Grand Slam under canny man manager Gatland - a Kiwi himself, let's not forget - is still rattling around in the memory somewhere. And no doubt when he talked to his players this week Gatland will have reminded them just how close they were to reaching the World Cup final in 2011. In fact, assistant coach Shaun Edwards went public to state that the All Blacks were "there for the taking" had Wales edged past France in the semis. Let's hope those words don't come back to haunt him.



MATCH FACTS

Head-to-head
Wales have not beaten New Zealand since 1953, losing all 24 games since a 13-8 win in Cardiff.

That win was one of just three over the All Blacks (the other victories came in 1905 & 1935). New Zealand have won 25 of their matches. The two teams have never drawn with each other.

The average score-line in this fixture, historically, gives New Zealand a 30-10 advantage.

Wales have scored just three tries in their last seven games against New Zealand, while the Kiwis have crossed for 25 tries over the same period.
New Zealand field the most experienced XV of any nation in the November internationals so far. There are 746 Test caps in the All Blacks side, compared to 529 in the Wales side for this match.

Wales

Have lost their last five games on the bounce, their worst run since 2003 (when they lost 10 on the spin under Steve Hansen, now the New Zealand coach).
Have only lost three consecutive home games once since losing four in a row during that run back in 2003 - that was in 2010, against South Africa twice and Australia once.
Are seen to be free-flowing, but have scored just five tries in their last five matches.


New Zealand

Are unbeaten since before their successful World Cup campaign, winning 18 (and drawing one) of their 19 matches since losing to Australia in their last game of the 2011 Tri-Nations.

Dan Carter has 243 conversions in his Test career, 68 more than any other player in the world. And he has never failed to score more than 10 points in the nine times he has faced Wales.

Only once (v Australia in October) in their last 50 games have they failed to score a try.
It is 10 years since they last lost a touring Test match in Europe (28-31 against England).

MATCH OFFICIALS

Referee: Craig Joubert (South Africa)
Assistant referees: Jerome Garces (France) and Greg Garner (England)
TV: Graham Hughes (England)

[maestegmafia]

Italians here in this bar were going nuts over the last game vs australia.

Despondency lurks thick in the air. I can't see the next game lightening the mood.

[wales606]

Time to believe in the impossible, or at least, extremely unlikely!

80 minutes, 30 men - that's all it is.

[eirebilly]

Ryan Jones just looks Welsh. If i didnt know him and saw him for the first time i would guess Welsh straight away :-)

Come on Wales

[LondonTiger]

that Haka looked like a gay snuff movie. Lot of men in dodgy taches threatening to fist the nice men in red before slitting their throats.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Us England fans need New Zeland to put at least 60 on Wales to make up for earlier;)

[eirebilly]

that Haka looked like a gay snuff movie. Lot of men in dodgy taches threatening to fist the nice men in red before slitting their throats.

[Pot Hale]

Wales need to win either this match or Aus one to stay in second tier seeds.

No pressure then.

[eirebilly]

Jaysus, bad injury for Jarvis?

Shocking foul play from the AB's as well

[thebluesmancometh]

1minute and we have 2 men down, what was hore doing?

[Hood83]

Dirty dirty All Blacks! Hore - defend that AWOP!

[wales606]

Hore should have been yellow carded if the ref had seen.

Aaron Jarvis is off.

Scott Andrews in the first scrum :o

[thebluesmancometh]

Was davies knocked cleasn out then?

[LondonTiger]

Really feel sorry for Jarvis - that knee did not look good.

[eirebilly]

Dirty dirty All Blacks! Hore - defend that AWOP!

That truely was disgusting and cowardly and yet he gets away with it. Makes me sick that sort of thing.

[thebluesmancometh]

Yellow, knocking someone out off the ball from behind???

[wales606]

Bradley Davies also off - Shingler in at lock

Jarvis is off, looks like he will miss next week too. - Scott Andrews on.


Now it's an even worse team to play the Blacks.

[Artful_Dodger]

Thats absolutely pathetic from Andrew Hore - red card anyday.

[LondonTiger]

Was davies knocked cleasn out then?

yup - full blooded punch to the jaw from your blindside can do that

[Hood83]

McCaw however, is all class

[wales606]

And Scott Andrews wins a penalty against Woodcock

[LondonTiger]

Hmm - not sure the penalty went the right way at that scrum

[eirebilly]

Thats absolutely pathetic from Andrew Hore - red card anyday.

+1

[wales606]

Corner not posts with Halpenny on?

WHAT?!

[thebluesmancometh]

Why does Mccaw not get pinged for taking the space? First ruck and he stands alone the wrong side using the ruck to aid him!!

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