Scotland v Tonga: build up, banter and match day thread

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

Scotland v Tonga
Pittodrie, Aberdeen
Saturday 24 November 2012
KO:3pm

Last matches:

10 November - Italy 28 - 23 Tonga
17 November - Scotland 10 - 21 South Africa

Previous head to heads:

1974
Scotland XV 44-8 Tonga
28 September 1974, Murrayfield

1995
Scotland 41-5 Tonga
30 May 1995, Pretoria (RWC)

2001
Scotland 43-20 Tonga
10 November 2001, Murrayfield

2009
Scotland 'A' 38-7 Tonga
20 November 2009, Netherdale

Injuries:

Gray following concussion protocol

Big Al still tending to his calf strain

No other injuries announced

Latest provisional IRB World Rankings - top 12

1 New Zealand 92.91
2 South Africa 86.05
3 Australia 85.94
4 France 84.99
5 England 81.96
6 Argentina 79.89
7 Ireland 79.04
8 Wales 78.95
9 Samoa 78.79
10 Scotland 77.42
11 Italy 76.61
12 Tonga 74.51

Teams:
SCOTLAND

15 Stuart Hogg (Glasgow Warriors)
14 Sean Lamont (Glasgow Warriors)
13 Max Evans (Castres)
12 Matt Scott (Edinburgh Rugby)
11 Tim Visser (Edinburgh Rugby)

10 Greig Laidlaw (Edinburgh Rugby)
9 Henry Pyrgos (Glasgow Warriors)

1 Ryan Grant (Glasgow Warriors)
2 Scott Lawson (London Irish)
3 Euan Murray (Worcester Warriors)
4 Richie Gray (Sale Sharks)
5 Alastair Kellock (Glasgow Warriors)
6 Alasdair Strokosch (Perpignan)
7 Kelly Brown (Saracens) (c)
8 David Denton (Edinburgh Rugby)

Substitutes:

16 Dougie Hall (Glasgow Warriors)
17 Kyle Traynor (Bristol Rugby)
18 Geoff Cross (Edinburgh Rugby)

19 Grant Gilchrist (Edinburgh Rugby)
20 John Barclay (Glasgow Warriors)
21 Rory Lawson (Newcastle Falcons)
22 Tom Heathcote (Bath Rugby)
23 Nick De Luca (Edinburgh Rugby)



TONGA

Vungakoto Lilo (Tarbes Pyrenees)

Fetu'u Vainikolo (Connacht)

Sukanaivalu Hufanga (Newcastle Falcons)

Sione Piukala (Perpignan)

Will Helu (Fasi Ma'ufanga)

Fangatapu Apikotoa (Amatori)

Taniela Moa (Pau)

Viliami Ma'afu (unattached);

Alisona Taumalolo (Perpignan)

Elvis Taione (Western Force)

Halani Aulika (London Irish)

Joe Tu'ineau (Aix en Provence)

Tukulua Lokotui (Wellington)

Hale T-Pole (Northland)

Nili Latu (captain, NEC)


Substitutes:


Ilaisa Ma'asi (Counties Manukau)

Tevita Mailau (Mont De Marsan)

Kamaliele Sakalia (Marist Tonga)

Sitiveni Mafi (Leicester)

Sione Timani (Llanelli)

Viliame 'longi (Marist Longoteme)

Eddie Paea (Eastern Suburbs)

Alipate Fatafehi (Lyon)

[RuggerRadge2611]

Robinson should have gone after the 6n. He should be sacked tonight.

[RuggerRadge2611]

Although I thought Traynor was surprisingly capable.

[Cryptoyourisan]

Robinson should have gone after the 6n. He should be sacked tonight.

Can Robinson be sacked without the new guy having to keep his coaching team? Blowing money on players doesn't seem to be a problem at the moment but having to pay people off may stick in the throat of the SRU.

[123456789]

Although I thought Traynor was surprisingly capable.

I agree, in fact I apologise wholeheartedly for my comment earlier which was out of order.

On another note Robinson has said "there will be consequences" and that the performance "reflects him as a coach", does this mean he'll resign or simply he will do the unspeakable and pick players on form...

[bsando]

I'd say its just unfortunate he had to come on in those circumstances. I think my comments on Laidlaw are harsh, but he did ruin the game for us today by deciding to just boot the ball up in the air on the halfway line when we had good possession. I don't know wether that was AR tactics or if Laidlaw was just out of ideas but either way it was a terrible decision and I was shouting at the TV the minute he did it.

I feel we need to go over the game today and do an analysis of the tactics because i am still at a loss to how we lost after having stats of 73% possession in 1st half. The gameplan was appalling and therefore I am blaming coaches for the loss.

[GLove39]

Back from the game, and frown what I can see its quite simple. Andy don't let the door hit you on your way out

[Imperialbigdave]

When will the northern hemisphere understand that forwards taking slow ball into contact from standing start is not the same as runners from deep taking the ball at pace. The only northern team today that demonstrated even a mild understanding of this was Ireland, and even then it was out of the ordinary for them.

[Cryptoyourisan]

... he did ruin the game for us today by deciding to just boot the ball up in the air on the halfway line when we had good possession.

Sounds reminiscent of Dan..

I'm reluctant to ascribe blame to Laidlaw. As far as I'm concerned he should have been picked to start the Six Nations as, at that time, he was the form stand-off in Scotland. However, I think most people long term don't see him as the answer for Scotland at stand-off. Perhaps scrum-half but he is simply too small and doesn't have a big enough boot for be an international stand-off.

Very tough for Heathcote, an uncapped 20-year-old who has barely even met half of his team mates before being asked to go on and try and stop one of the worst defeats in Scottish rugby history. Then again, would Jackson have done better? I think he may have done but his form this season has been so wayward it is anyone's guess. It seemed to be consensus months ago that people were looking for Laidlaw and Jackson to be starting in the event that Weir is crocked.

Unfortunately, I'm not entirely sure Weir will sort things out when he's back. He's definitely got the kicking game, his running game is underrated although his passing can be a bit choreographed. I think it'll really depend on how he can work with Bennett, Dunbar, Hogg, Horne and Maitland at Glasgow and whether the same core of players will be used by Scotland. Going back to Robinson, how many of us on here were calling for Dunbar or Seymour to be involved today as opposed to de Luca, Evans and Lamont? There was nothing to lose by doing that today.

[MacKnocked-on]

Today's game was lost during that period of failed rolling mauls over the Tongan line in the first half, truly butchered chances.

[tigertattie]

I thought lamont was the only player to put his hand up and take responsibility. He went looking for work as the ball was not getting to the wings.

Other players
Traynor. Was ok nothing bad but nothing good
S lawson. See above
Rev Murray. Never saw him do anything
Kellock. Looked on at rucks. Only good in the line out
Gray. Worst performance from him. Still dazed maybe
Strokes. Did nothing to warrant his place.
Brown. Not a 7. Put him to 6 and if he does not pick it up, the captaincy needs put to someone else.
Denton. Did nothing.

Pyrgos. Not so easy ok the back foot is it Henry! Not going to blame him for that though.
Laidlaw. Last year was on the form of his life. No form now though. Needs to go back to being a nine
Visser. He's not the messiah. He's a very naughty boy. Buying that dummy was shocking.
Scott. Did nothing good or bad.
Evans. See ya max. Not good enough to be a 13
Hogg. Ran into contact too often. Tonks is breathing down his neck.

None of the replacements made any impact. Heathcote was put in a silly position. Not going to pass judgement on the poor lad.

Overall the forwards as a unit were dire. The backs were pedestrian. Is it the players? Is it the coaching? Something needs to change though.

[Imperialbigdave]

We can put all the players in the world out onto the field in a scotland shirt, but until they have an evident gameplan it will make no difference.

Its not hard to nail the fundamentals down either. We dont need 15 world beaters, we need 15 guys who can do the basics well, and a gameplan that they can use to dictate their style on the game.

In loose play ball in hand, if they knew how to come onto the ball at pace, fix the defence and then choose the right option from pass/run/kick, run good support lines, and know how many numbers to commit to rucks, the rest falls into place almost by itself.

What dissapoints me most about today though was the lack of leadership. The forwards were far too greedy when they had the ball. If the maul fails, stop repeatedly going for it. The backs never touched the ball after a ruck had been won in tongas 22. The only time a back touched it in the 22 was if a line break from outside had taken them into it.

The past three games have raised serious questions about Kelly Browns captaincy. 3 weeks of repeated poor decision making when penalties have been awarded.

[Imperialbigdave]

also, if you have an out and out finisher on the wing, why do you spend 2 games completely ignoring him? Hes not getting the ball on the wing and hes clearly been told not to come into the midfield too much, as hes the complete opposite for embra, popping up at second receiver if anything too often.

[George Carlin]

Just back in, saw the score and am obliquely, utterly lost for words.

There's very little point in writing much. Things are exactly what they look like. The team are now less than the some of their parts, have demonstrated consistent regression rather than improvement and Robinson's position is no longer sustainable. The comment above was correct. Even our best players are now playing badly and when this happens the problem is coaching.

The problem is not the players. They players are good professionals and are sufficiently talented in themselves. But they are playing without an effective gameplan or indeed one which only a small number of the players believe in.

Robinson has done all he can with his talents and for that he should genuinely be applauded. But it's the end of the road now - he's now part of the problem and that doesn't work for a national team coach.

[GLove39]

Fun fact, Tonga's population is less than half that of Aberdeen's..
Shows just how bad we are

[TJ1]

Scotland are a team I do not understand. Every time they look to be going forward they take an extra step backward, like this today. Wales are set to lose 4 games from 4 and England 3 from 4. It's not looking too good for the Lions cause.

robinson - crap swelection and tactics

Laidlaw is not a fly-half, can Robinson and Bradley just accept it. He either just ships the ball on or punts it in the air, we've looked totally rudderless for the last three weeks.

He is a very good fly half - however he is being coached into playing a game alien to him and that he doesn't want to play.

This is the man who masterminded the demolition of good teams in the HC last year. He is still the same good player. What has happened to him? Robinson.

[Guest]

Fun fact, Tonga's population is less than half that of Aberdeen's..
Shows just how bad we are

Don't beat yourself up about populations, it makes no bearing, e.g. NZ v England, Wales v USA, Samoa v Canada. Not a huge correlation between population and rugby success.

[GLove39]

Fun fact, Tonga's population is less than half that of Aberdeen's..
Shows just how bad we are

Don't beat yourself up about populations, it makes no bearing, e.g. NZ v England, Wales v USA, Samoa v Canada. Not a huge correlation between population and rugby success.

Good point

[TJ1]

Just looking thru the stats. 17 turnovers. thats what killed us

[Cryptoyourisan]

Just looking thru the stats. 17 turnovers. thats what killed us

Not having an openside helps in that respect...

[21st Century Schizoid Man]

Guys - all part of the BBE giving his wee Barf pals an Int cap - pathetic really and in any other business would border on corrupt.

[George Carlin]

Posted this on another thread, but it's worth repeating:

Win percentage of Scotland rugby coaches: tournament records in professional era:

Richie Dixon (1995-96, sacked) 50%

Jim Telfer (1997-99, also director of rugby) 53.8%

Ian McGeechan (2000-03, promoted to director of rugby) 42%

Matt Williams (2004-05, sacked) 10%

Frank Hadden (2005-09, sacked) 36%

Andy Robinson (2009-present day) 23.68%

In terms of what can be done, interesting piece by Iain "Fetch my coat, Smithers" Morrison in the Hootsmon:

"Iain Morrison: Scotland’s fall guys can rise

A miserable autumn disguises the young talent at Scotland’s disposal but can coach bring out their best?

ANOTHER autumn turns to winter and the Scots, with three loses and dropping out the top ten of the IRB’s food chain, may just be feeling the chill wind blowing. The team has now won three and lost eight Tests in this calendar year. With the draw for the 2015 Rugby World Cup due to take place in London a week tomorrow, Scottish fans can expect another tough group.

Scotland failed to qualify for the World Cup quarter-finals for the first time in history last year despite the gods smiling on them by plucking from the hat the weakest of the top-seeded teams (Argentina) and arguably the weakest of the second group of countries too (England). Scotland will be lucky to be so lucky again. There is another round of autumn internationals still to take place next weekend but the likelihood is that Andy Robinson’s men will have to defeat England, Argentina, Ireland or Wales/Samoa if they want to experience knockout rugby come 2015.

They are better positioned than many imagine despite what happened at Pittodrie yesterday afternoon.

Ignore his miserable debut, Scotland have found a stand-off of true Test potential in Bath’s 20-year-old Tom Heathcote. Robinson has been stalking Heathcote ever since the stand-off played alongside his son for England’s age grade teams and he has finally snared his quarry. We didn’t see enough of the Bath man against Tonga to jump to too many conclusions but, given a little time, Heathcote boasts the class to silence Scotland’s stand-off debate that has been raging for over a decade and, for that alone, he deserves our gratitude.

In the backline, Robinson seems to have taken a leaf out of the All Black book by capping young players early in the World Cup cycle so, when the big one comes along in 2015, the likes of Heathcote, Henry Pyrgos, Stuart Hogg, Tim Visser and Matt Scott will all boast around 25-35 caps worth of international experience. Plenty enough to launch a World Cup campaign.

When you add into the mix the Scottish-qualified Kiwi flyer Sean Maitland – he has just joined Glasgow Warriors – and Clermont’s Mark Bennett, who has followed him west on a temporary basis, the future for Scottish back play looks a lot brighter than it did a year or so ago.

Yesterday’s starting backs boasted an average age of just 25 with Sean Lamont the only one of them on the wrong side of 30. They will all be wiser, stronger and significantly better players in three years time. The problem is that young players make mistakes while they learn the ropes “on the job”, as Scotland’s youngsters must do. We saw that yesterday and the fans may need to be patient while a brand new blend beds in.

The forwards are mixed. They are big and muscular and bossed proceedings against both New Zealand and South Africa. If David Denton would benefit from a little more awareness, his leaving Richie McCaw for road kill is not something many can claim. The set scrum is a potent attacking weapon and the lineout woes are fixable. The problem at the breakdown is less susceptible to tinkering because the Scots have pretty much given up challenging for the opposition ball. We need a big, muscular breakaway in the mould of Ireland’s Sean O’Brien to compete where the tin helmets are required.

Part of the problem lies with the Scottish backs, who are slight. The best back for disrupting opposition ball in recent years has been Graeme Morrison, who is injured and out of favour, while some of the current crop might as well not bother competing for all the impression they make at the breakdown. It’s an issue that needs to be addressed ahead of the Six Nations.

At least Richie Gray and Ryan Grant have emerged from the autumn with their reputations enhanced, even if Ross Ford is feeling a little less cheery. If the Kelso man makes the Lions squad next year, and goodness knows he has the ability, the hooker will probably look back on this week as a turning point. He has fallen a long way, from victorious skipper of the triumphant summer tour, to being unwanted on the Aberdeen bench. If yesterday proved anything, it was that Scotland need Ford back to his best.

There are others who will put their hand up between now and the World Cup. The South African pair of Josh Strauss and WP Nel both conveniently qualify for Scotland just under the wire and both men will add to the competition in the first and third rows of the scrum. As will Rob Harley and Ryan Wilson who have been injured and overlooked respectively in recent weeks. Grant Gilchrist adds to the riches in the second row while hooker Pat MacArthur will surely muscle his way into the squad in time for the Six Nations. There are bump and grind aficionados licking their lips at the potential of Jon Welsh once the Glasgow man is fit again.

Scotland are down with the smaller fish in the Test pool but Robinson is working towards a long-term goal of RWC 2015 and the little Englishman will just have to hope SRU chief Mark Dodson and the fans have the patience to see his project to completion."

[RDW]

Robinson has quit!!!!

New thread here

https://www.606v2.com/t37689-robinson-resigns

[Biltong]

When you add into the mix the Scottish-qualified Kiwi flyer Sean Maitland.

There are others who will put their hand up between now and the World Cup. The South African pair of Josh Strauss and WP Nel both conveniently qualify for Scotland just under the wire and both men will add to the competition in the first and third rows of the scrum.

Tim Visser, Sean Maitland, Josh Strauss, WP Nel.

I think this is a sad state for Scottish rugby that they are pinning their hopes on foreign qualified players for their future.

[tigertattie]

It works for New Zealand.

[Rory_Gallagher]

Just looking thru the stats. 17 turnovers. thats what killed us

Not having an openside helps in that respect...

I never understand this comment, it makes no sense. How would an openside prevent the opposition team making turnovers? The only time he is going to make a difference here is off the first phase, and it is rare that turnovers are made here as the entire back row is usually there in support.

He may be a good pilferer for his own team, but the pack as a whole is the problem if ball retention is bad.

[Tramptastic]

would just like to note that the night before the match my older sister's rugby team was out drinking with the tongan team so they were apparently all hungover when they won that match!

[Pal Joey]

Hung over what?

@ tigertattie

[GLove39]

Well what a trip up North it's been for the Scotland team. Left Edinburgh ranked 10th, will return there down to 12th and without a head coach.

[GLove39]

would just like to note that the night before the match my older sister's rugby team was out drinking with the tongan team so they were apparently all hungover when they won that match!

If this is true , then it makes Saturday even worse. Also wasn't the same thing said about the Samoans 2 years ago?

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