Why do only Wales and England fans argue?

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Why? Why do they bicker? Why do they wind each other up? Why are 99% of Welsh articles written by an English fan called HERSH? I find the rivalries and inferiority complexes rather perplexing.

Scottish people hate (not all) English people
English people hate (not all) French people
Welsh people take a dislike to England and pretend they're a member of some kind of post WWII Celtic pact.

but... only the Welsh and English argue on there boards. Why? I can't remember seeing an Irish or a Scot winding each other up. not even Oz and Kiwis!! The closest thing rugby has to football fans is us Welsh and English

I'm vocal, I write a lot of stuff but rarely is it not about Wales.

I think it is very simple. The welsh and the English are two dramatically different cultures, though they are neighbours. History has a little to do with it, though I would say far more is to do with the very different outlook on life and living between the two nationalities.

You can see that grossly personified by the way the two nations vote at General Elections, the way they react to similar news.

There is not a hate of each other, but one mentality will strain a reaction of the other.

English often accused of being Arrogant, Self Centred and thus welsh accused of being "chippy" and over reactionary.

Yawnnnnnn

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

maestegmafia wrote:The welsh and the English are two dramatically different cultures, though they are neighbours. History has a little to do with it, though I would say far more is to do with the very different outlook on life and living between the two nationalities.

You can see that grossly personified by the way the two nations vote at General Elections, the way they react to similar news.

I'd seriously be interested to hear the reasons for the above, especially the bits in bold.

I honestly think there are a lot more similarities than differences. In the vast majority of cases I don't think there's really much difference at all between Welsh and English.

"I don't think there's really much difference at all between Welsh and English."

We're taller

But if you want a real answer from Mae you'll be waiting a long time.

Cuthbert is pretty tall for a 'Welsh' winger.
Otherwise him & Shane are basically the same guy..

I remember watching a TV program a while ago on the genetic make up of the British and Irish people. It studied genetics, as well as art culture and literature. All i could find in relation was this from the BBC


BBC Sunday, 30 June, 2002, 15:31 GMT 16:31 UK

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/wales/2076470.stm

English and Welsh are races apart



Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

The research supports the idea that Celtic Britain underwent a form of ethnic cleansing by Anglo-Saxons invaders following the Roman withdrawal in the fifth century.

Genetic tests show clear differences between the Welsh and English

It suggests that between 50% and 100% of the indigenous population of what was to become England was wiped out, with Offa's Dyke acting as a "genetic barrier" protecting those on the Welsh side.

And the upheaval can be traced to this day through genetic differences between the English and the Welsh.

Academics at University College in London comparing a sample of men from the UK with those from an area of the Netherlands where the Anglo-Saxons are thought to have originated found the English subjects had genes that were almost identical.

But there were clear differences between the genetic make-up of Welsh people studied.

The research team studied the Y-chromosome, which is passed almost unchanged from father to son, and looked for certain genetic markers.

Ethnic links: Many races share common bonds

They chose seven market towns mentioned in the Domesday Book of 1086 and studied 313 male volunteers whose paternal grandfather had also lived in the area.

They then compared this with samples from Norway and with Friesland, now a northern province of the Netherlands.

The English and Frisians studied had almost identical genetic make-up but the English and Welsh were very different.

The researchers concluded the most likely explanation for this was a large-scale Anglo-Saxon invasion, which devastated the Celtic population of England, but did not reach Wales.

Dr Mark Thomas, of the Centre for Genetic Anthropology at UCL, said their findings suggested that a migration occurred within the last 2,500 years.

Genetic links

It reinforced the idea that the Welsh were the true indigenous Britons.

In April last year, research for a BBC programme on the Vikings revealed strong genetic links between the Welsh and Irish Celts and the Basques of northern Spain and south France.

It suggested a possible link between the Celts and Basques, dating back tens of thousands of years.

The UCL research into the more recent Anglo-Saxon period suggested a migration on a huge scale.

"It appears England is made up of an ethnic cleansing event from people coming across from the continent after the Romans left," he said.

Celtic Britons

Archaeologists after the Second World War rejected the traditionally held view that an Anglo-Saxon invasion pushed the indigenous Celtic Britons to the fringes of Britain.

Instead, they said the arrival of Anglo-Saxon culture could have come from trade or a small ruling elite.

But the latest research by the UCL team, "using genetics as a history book", appears to support the original view of a large-scale invasion of England.

It suggests that the Welsh border was more of a genetic barrier to the Anglo-Saxon Y chromosome gene flow than the North Sea.

Dr Thomas added: "Our findings completely overturn the modern view of the origins of the English."

That doesn't support any argument that modern day English and Welsh are much (if at all) different in culture, outlook on life or the way they react to news.

Also interesting reading if you enjoy history.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/1256894.stm

Maes
You need to get out more to check your generalisations. Go to the working class East London where I was from and it had more in common with South Wales than with London's West End at that time (bit more 'international' these days granted). Back in the '70s me and my Kent mates had a blast or three with our Merthyr mates, no great cultural gap there beyond our accents.
Come to Gloucester city now and it is culturally closer to a S Wales city than it is to its close neighbour Cheltenham just up the road. Stroud could be a Valley town. That kind of national stereotyping does not do your thinking very much credit.

That's a pretty small study (332 people).

I have a book on another study (I think they took thousands of samples). The result of that one was that there was little difference. I think it was a maximum of 20% 'germanic' genes in England (in the North I think). I think the Welsh were around 10% and the Irish 5%. I'll have a look for it later.

Also, the guy who did the study relating the British Celts and the Basques concluded that the English people had been here for years and the culture in the Easter of Britain has 'always' been Germanic. I believe it was reported in a Scottish newspaper as "Feud with English 10000 years old" or something like that. The theory was that since travel by sea was A LOT easy than land the West coast had more in common with the Atlantic coast and East coast had more in common with North Sea coast. Also the English language split off from the mainland germanic language well before the Anglo-Saxons came over and has more in common with the Scandinavia languages rather than German (at the time).

In the end it's theories as we can never know. People will pick whichever they like the most and run with that.

I want a blood test done on Cuthbert.

gregortree wrote:Maes
You need to get out more to check your generalisations. Go to the working class East London where I was from and it had more in common with South Wales than with London's West End at that time (bit more 'international' these days granted). Back in the '70s me and my Kent mates had a blast or three with our Merthyr mates, no great cultural gap there beyond our accents.
Come to Gloucester city now and it is culturally closer to a S Wales city than it is to its close neighbour Cheltenham just up the road. Stroud could be a Valley town. That kind of national stereotyping does not do your thinking very much credit.

How can you not generalise with only a few lines on the subject...? I highlighted my opinion that is all, I don't think this thread needs much more input, it is predominated with angst and antagonism, and created for such. I was actually trying to mediate with some brief observation of the glaring difference.

I would certainly agree with you that there is a glaring difference within England between the South East and the rest of the country. The Welsh certainly have far more in common with those outside of the South East... The poorer parts of London possibly an esception, though they predominantly hardly exist anymore do they...!

I still don't understand where maes is coming from. What ARE these differences? Examples?

Great extract from the BBC Wales History of Wales series...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/middle_ages/wales_conquest_01.shtml

can I have a blood/genetic test please to ensure I'm not from the wrong side of the dyke?-ffs that would be a step toooo far if my genes were tainted!

London is a world city, not an 'English' city. Many of England's poorest boroughs are in London, and are closer to Wales politically speaking. Check out some London constituency maps. In our patchworks of 'nations' generalisations just don't fit.
Much interbreeding, has thankfully hashed GB&I 'eugenics'.
England Rugby has sufficient 'non English' mongrels (as we are so often reminded) to derail attempts at 'English' stereotyping.
Let's enjoy our tribal rugby as a game, no more, and if we met as fans in a bar, or at a game we would find what we have in common... a love of rugby.

gregortree wrote:
Let's enjoy our tribal rugby as a game, no more, and if we met as fans in a bar, or at a game we would find what we have in common... a love of rugby.

Quite right. I'm not sure why some folk are so keen to drag up centuries-old conflicts as a way of trying to prove differences (that aren't really there).

gregortree wrote:London is a world city, not an 'English' city. Many of England's poorest boroughs are in London, and are closer to Wales politically speaking. Check out some London constituency maps. In our patchworks of 'nations' generalisations just don't fit.
Much interbreeding, has thankfully hashed GB&I 'eugenics'.
England Rugby has sufficient 'non English' mongrels (as we are so often reminded) to derail attempts at 'English' stereotyping.
Let's enjoy our tribal rugby as a game, no more, and if we met as fans in a bar, or at a game we would find what we have in common... a love of rugby.

I saw the OP being more about people, than rugby.

The larger of the two genetic studies I mentioned was carried out by Brian Sykes at Oxford University. It was called the Oxford Genetic Atlas Project and over 10000 people were tested over Britain and Ireland.

Here's a quote from the last chapter of "Blood of the Isles" by Brian Sykes

Brian Sykes, Blood of the Isles wrote:I can see no evidence at all of a large-scale immigration from central Europe to Ireland and the west of the Isles generally, such as has been used to explain the presence there of the main body of 'Gaels' or 'Celts'. The 'Celts' of Ireland and the Western Isles are not, as far as I can see from genetic evidence, related to the Celts who spread south and east to Italy, Greece and Turkey from the heartlands of Hallstadt and La Tene in the shadows of the Alps during the first millennium BC

So funnily enough the Italians (rugby is focused in the north) are the only 'true celts' in the PRO12. BTW he goes on to say that the British celts were more likely related to the initial inhabitants following the ice age from the Basque region. So older than the 'true celts'

Brian Sykes, Blood of the Isles wrote:The second overlay is in eastern and northern England, above the Danelaw line which ran from London to Chester. Above that line, and particularly in the east, there are clear signals of female settlement overlaying the Celtic substratum. As we have already touched on it is very difficult to distinguish Saxon, Dane and Norman on a genetic basis, since they're all from the same Germanic/Scandinavian origins, but the concentration of these signals above rather than below the Danelaw line makes me think they are more likely Viking rather than Saxon or Norman. The approximate extent of this overlay I estimate to be between 10 per cent in the east and 5 per cent in the north - substantial in terms of numbers, but only really denting the Celtic substructure

So there significant Germanic elements in England but it's only 10% more than the other regions of Britain.

The Origins of the British by Stephen Oppenheimer is also very good and goes into a lot of cultural, linguistic and historical information as well as the genetics.

Honest to God the reason why i kick off is because back on the old 606 in early 2007 i joined for gossip team news and some light hearted nostalgia.

All was going well so i thought it fine to write my first article on "form is temporary and class is permanent"
Martyn Williams was my main focus,the complete shower of sh!t and abuse that ensued was unbelievable,
all about how Neil Back was a demi god, world cup. world cup, EFING WORLD CUP!

Then i thought right you want go for it! have some of this!
It was a forest fire started by English posters and good luck putting it out

HammerofThunor wrote:I watched the 2007 World Cup final in a Welsh working man's club. The whole place were chanting abuse towards England (the rugby team not the people). That was great fun. Let's just say my three years living in Wales and watching rugby in Wales put paid to any positive feeling I had to Welsh rugby. Used to be my second team (engaged to a Welsh girl, got into rugby due to Welsh father-in-law). They're a bit further down the list now though. Not a proper dislike but it does make me smile when they lose to 'weaker' sides.

Well I have lived in Wales for a few years and have to say that the cultural differences were much bigger than I ever expected. Generally any of the trends in the way people live in Wales can be found anywhere else - its just that things just always seemed to be pushed just that little bit further. Anyways in the next few weeks I am due to finally go back across the Severn for good and back to the 21st century. I cant wait.

viewtothegym wrote:Honest to God the reason why i kick off is because back on the old 606 in early 2007 i joined for gossip team news and some light hearted nostalgia.

All was going well so i thought it fine to write my first article on "form is temporary and class is permanent"
Martyn Williams was my main focus,the complete shower of sh!t and abuse that ensued was unbelievable,
all about how Neil Back was a demi god, world cup. world cup, EFING WORLD CUP!

Then i thought right you want go for it! have some of this!
It was a forest fire started by English posters and good luck putting it out

That's probably a very common event. That way the dark side leads

lostinwales wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I watched the 2007 World Cup final in a Welsh working man's club. The whole place were chanting abuse towards England (the rugby team not the people). That was great fun. Let's just say my three years living in Wales and watching rugby in Wales put paid to any positive feeling I had to Welsh rugby. Used to be my second team (engaged to a Welsh girl, got into rugby due to Welsh father-in-law). They're a bit further down the list now though. Not a proper dislike but it does make me smile when they lose to 'weaker' sides.

Well I have lived in Wales for a few years and have to say that the cultural differences were much bigger than I ever expected. Generally any of the trends in the way people live in Wales can be found anywhere else - its just that things just always seemed to be pushed just that little bit further. Anyways in the next few weeks I am due to finally go back across the Severn for good and back to the 21st century. I cant wait.

People were no different to where I grew up or where I live now. It was the desire of every single Welsh person I knew for England to lose (except my father-in-law) that got to me. My wife was asleep on the sofa during the Australia game last week. End of the game she woke up, asked "Did you win?", "No", "Good" rolled over back to sleep.

It was sort of funny when I saw some old guy wandering around in an Oz rugby shirt on the day (a few years back) Oz were playing England. I mean - he might have been an aussie (there are a few about) He might also have liked wearing green and gold (this is the land of bikini's and furry boots after all) but but...

People were no different to where I grew up or where I live now. It was the desire of every single Welsh person I knew for England to lose (except my father-in-law) that got to me. My wife was asleep on the sofa during the Australia game last week. End of the game she woke up, asked "Did you win?", "No", "Good" rolled over back to sleep.

Fair doo's to your missus Hammer, she sounds a cracker and would be welcomed in most pubs in our fair land

Huwball wrote:

People were no different to where I grew up or where I live now. It was the desire of every single Welsh person I knew for England to lose (except my father-in-law) that got to me. My wife was asleep on the sofa during the Australia game last week. End of the game she woke up, asked "Did you win?", "No", "Good" rolled over back to sleep.

Fair doo's to your missus Hammer, she sounds a cracker and would be welcomed in most pubs in our fair land

I thought the same, good welsh girl with a sense of humour...

My wife is Irish, I take a right lashing when we are poor and Ireland on a high, to be fair she has been almost mute when it comes to international rugby until a fortnight ago, bar the HEC obviously where her beloved Leinster are the cream of the crop and the Ospreys are not... Though we get a touch of revenge in the RP12.

There are english on here such as Lost in Wales who continue to just roll out welsh sterotypes - That is the most frightening form of racisim and naivity as the people doing it are actually unaware. Ignornace is one thing but some pseudo intelectualisation about feeling superior and sterotyping a whole race is something far more frightening.

There is nothing between the individuals in each nation yet people like those above like to exacerbate and stretch everything they can to reinforce their own warped beliefs - It's naive bigotry and dangerous territory and has no business in rugby. There are asxxxes from all nations; why can't people just accept that unfortunate fact of life.

Ruby, yes true mate,
and no country has the monopoly on bigots.
Keyboard warriors come out with daft stuff from their anonymity: genetics, bloodlines, ancestors, and god knows what other twaddle.

But in the real world of a rugby bar after the match, we all become just fellow fans, whichever side we backed. No room for bigots or racists in the clubhouse.

gregortree wrote:Ruby, yes true mate,
and no country has the monopoly on bigots.
Keyboard warriors come out with daft stuff from their anonymity: genetics, bloodlines, ancestors, and god knows what other twaddle.

But in the real world of a rugby bar after the match, we all become just fellow fans, whichever side we backed. No room for bigots or racists in the clubhouse.

I agree, luckily the excellent mods on this board do a great job of keeping many of them away. Unfortunately some keep on re-appearing again and again.

The advice is to ignore those who wish to annoy. It is not bad advice.

maestegmafia wrote:The advice is to ignore those who wish to annoy. It is not bad advice.

And yet you ignore that advice more often than not!

gregortree wrote:Ruby, yes true mate,
and no country has the monopoly on bigots.
Keyboard warriors come out with daft stuff from their anonymity: genetics, bloodlines, ancestors, and god knows what other twaddle.

But in the real world of a rugby bar after the match, we all become just fellow fans, whichever side we backed. No room for bigots or racists in the clubhouse.

Too early for a pint for you Greg; you english boys can't handle it this early in the mroning

gregortree wrote:Ruby, yes true mate,
and no country has the monopoly on bigots.
Keyboard warriors come out with daft stuff from their anonymity: genetics, bloodlines, ancestors, and god knows what other twaddle.

But in the real world of a rugby bar after the match, we all become just fellow fans, whichever side we backed. No room for bigots or racists in the clubhouse.

Agreed, I mean for goodbness sake we all live on the same tiny island, there is no difference between someone born in Bristol or Cardiff, its what 30 miles? People in some countries drive that far just to go to the shops!

Too true.....but I'll be in the clubhouse later on Ruby.. 11.30 am Saturday in to be exact. (still a bit early for me, only being English an'all).
Glos kickoff brought forward to 12.00, so we can all enjoy the AB game later on the telly.

maestegmafia wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/wales/2076470.stm

English and Welsh are races apart

Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

We English have our residency permits, having been here for more than 3 years. According to the IRB, we are just as British as the Welsh.

In fact, reading carefully through the report, and factoring out the all the political correctness contained therein, one factoid jumps out:
It is apparent the Welsh are the original............English. So Welsh are English. Hmmmmm.

Welsh secretly want to be English.
Lewsey made it anyway.

doctor_grey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/wales/2076470.stm

English and Welsh are races apart

Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

We English have our residency permits, having been here for more than 3 years. According to the IRB, we are just as British as the Welsh.

In fact, reading carefully through the report, and factoring out the all the political correctness contained therein, one factoid jumps out:
It is apparent the Welsh are the original............English. So Welsh are English. Hmmmmm.

English comes from Angle...! Welsh and Wales are also English, germanic/latin origin words that come from Vale (germanic hilly) and from Valentia (latin for wall). Cymraeg is what the people of Briton called themselves, Cymru is what we call Wales in Welsh.

Cymru and Cymraeg comes from a Brythonic word "combrogi" meaning our people. This word Cymru can be found in England to. Cumbira was once part of Yr Hen Ogledd, the Cymraeg of the North. Cumbria is a word that has Anglosized from Cymru or Gomru. Cymric, became Cambric, then Cambrian then Cumbrian.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2236911/Welsh-rugby-fan-Phillip-Pritchard-guilty-singing-anti-English-songs-Brecon-magistrates.html

Looks like the English can say every welsh man is into bestiality but the Welsh can't say nothing about the English

viewtothegym wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2236911/Welsh-rugby-fan-Phillip-Pritchard-guilty-singing-anti-English-songs-Brecon-magistrates.html

Looks like the English can say every welsh man is into bestiality but the Welsh can't say nothing about the English

They obviously can say nothing, but they can't say anything...!

Well the Daily Wail is as big a wum as it gets. I don't normally read that trash, but thanks for posting.
Although having speed read it, he was dobbed in by a fellow countryman if I get the story ?

gregortree wrote: he was dobbed in by a fellow countryman if I get the story ?

Shows what a decent bunch we are. We wouldn't want guests in our country to be offended by a drunk.

gregortree wrote:I want a blood test done on Cuthbert.

I think you will find there will be no Welsh or English in the results, only "Forest of Dean".

gregortree wrote:Welsh secretly want to be English.
Lewsey made it anyway.

At least Wales kinda got to touch the world cup...

Roger,
Lewsey was the finest Welsh full back never to play for Wales,
He was a great player 'on his day'. Truly.

maestegmafia wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/wales/2076470.stm

English and Welsh are races apart

Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

We English have our residency permits, having been here for more than 3 years. According to the IRB, we are just as British as the Welsh.

In fact, reading carefully through the report, and factoring out the all the political correctness contained therein, one factoid jumps out:
It is apparent the Welsh are the original............English. So Welsh are English. Hmmmmm.

English comes from Angle...! Welsh and Wales are also English, germanic/latin origin words that come from Vale (germanic hilly) and from Valentia (latin for wall). Cymraeg is what the people of Briton called themselves, Cymru is what we call Wales in Welsh.

I'm reasonable sure that the term Wales comes from the English term for stranger or foreigner, not vale (not 100%)

Cymru and Cymraeg comes from a Brythonic word "combrogi" meaning our people. This word Cymru can be found in England to. Cumbira was once part of Yr Hen Ogledd, the Cymraeg of the North. Cumbria is a word that has Anglosized from Cymru or Gomru. Cymric, became Cambric, then Cambrian then Cumbrian.

I don't think the 'Britons' ever referred to themselves as anything as they didn't see themselves as a collective. The idea of Cymru being Wales happened after the Normans had invaded didn't it? Again, not sure about this.

I suspect it is a derivation of the Roman / Norman 'Gaul' which also covers western Celts in Brittany (Bretons). Romans / Normans pushed everybody west & north. Gallic the language, Irish & Scots, and Breton are cultural residues at the fringes of Europe.

Guillaume = William
Gaul = Wales
Gallic = the language
Gauloises = French fags

ohh and Cornish language

The Celts practiced headhunting as the head was believed to house a person's soul. Ancient Romans and Greeks recorded the Celts' habits of nailing heads of personal enemies to walls or dangling them from the necks of horses.

I think you may have the ABs scared off now.

HammerofThunor wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/wales/2076470.stm

English and Welsh are races apart

Gene scientists claim to have found proof that the Welsh are the "true" Britons.

We English have our residency permits, having been here for more than 3 years. According to the IRB, we are just as British as the Welsh.

In fact, reading carefully through the report, and factoring out the all the political correctness contained therein, one factoid jumps out:
It is apparent the Welsh are the original............English. So Welsh are English. Hmmmmm.

English comes from Angle...! Welsh and Wales are also English, germanic/latin origin words that come from Vale (germanic hilly) and from Valentia (latin for wall). Cymraeg is what the people of Briton called themselves, Cymru is what we call Wales in Welsh.

I'm reasonable sure that the term Wales comes from the English term for stranger or foreigner, not vale (not 100%)

Cymru and Cymraeg comes from a Brythonic word "combrogi" meaning our people. This word Cymru can be found in England to. Cumbira was once part of Yr Hen Ogledd, the Cymraeg of the North. Cumbria is a word that has Anglosized from Cymru or Gomru. Cymric, became Cambric, then Cambrian then Cumbrian.

I don't think the 'Britons' ever referred to themselves as anything as they didn't see themselves as a collective. The idea of Cymru being Wales happened after the Normans had invaded didn't it? Again, not sure about this.

Ill repeat what it says above for you...

Cymru and Cymraeg comes from a Brythonic word "combrogi" meaning our people. I guess the people would have addressed their own people as their/our people. Cymraeg...!

The idea of the word Wales coming from "wealas" the Frisians word for stranger is unlikely as the reference of wales as Valentia is shown in Roman manuscripts