Why do only Wales and England fans argue?

by RogerLewis Mon 19 Nov 2012, 2:13 pm

First topic message reminder :

Why? Why do they bicker? Why do they wind each other up? Why are 99% of Welsh articles written by an English fan called HERSH? I find the rivalries and inferiority complexes rather perplexing.

Scottish people hate (not all) English people
English people hate (not all) French people
Welsh people take a dislike to England and pretend they're a member of some kind of post WWII Celtic pact.

but... only the Welsh and English argue on there boards. Why? I can't remember seeing an Irish or a Scot winding each other up. not even Oz and Kiwis!! The closest thing rugby has to football fans is us Welsh and English Sad

I'm vocal, I write a lot of stuff but rarely is it not about Wales.

by Cyril Thu 22 Nov 2012, 8:52 pm

When the Anglo Saxons took over what is now modern England they called the dispossessed Britons wealisc which means "foreign" or "outsider". That's where Welsh comes from.

Not terribly nice but they were tough times folks.

by Irishhoneymonster Thu 22 Nov 2012, 9:32 pm

Seems to me alot of people here are getting mixed up between the meaning of what the terms genetic and culture each mean. And please don't come back with some Oxford English Dictionary definition I know what they mean in my mind!

I understand that there may be some key and important diffrences in culture between the Welsh and the English but seriously come on, the difference isn't that huge as to cause some sort of culture shock! Am sure someone used that term earlier on but then maybe I've been dreaming again Smile

Or drinking Hug

by maestegmafia Thu 22 Nov 2012, 9:35 pm

Irishhoneymonster wrote:Seems to me alot of people here are getting mixed up between the meaning of what the terms genetic and culture each mean. And please don't come back with some Oxford English Dictionary definition I know what they mean in my mind!

I understand that there may be some key and important diffrences in culture between the Welsh and the English but seriously come on, the difference isn't that huge as to cause some sort of culture shock! Am sure someone used that term earlier on but then maybe I've been dreaming again Or drinking

I completely disagree, I think there is as much a difference culturally, between the Welsh and English as there is between the Irish and the Japanese.

by Cyril Thu 22 Nov 2012, 9:39 pm

What are these huge chasms that culturally separate the Welsh and English?

I lived in Wales for 15 years and I didn't notice them. Maybe I went to the wrong bits.

Come on, I really want to know!

by Irishhoneymonster Thu 22 Nov 2012, 9:43 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
Irishhoneymonster wrote:Seems to me alot of people here are getting mixed up between the meaning of what the terms genetic and culture each mean. And please don't come back with some Oxford English Dictionary definition I know what they mean in my mind!

I understand that there may be some key and important diffrences in culture between the Welsh and the English but seriously come on, the difference isn't that huge as to cause some sort of culture shock! Am sure someone used that term earlier on but then maybe I've been dreaming again Or drinking

I completely disagree, I think there is as much a difference culturally, between the Welsh and English as there is between the Irish and the Japanese.

Right so what are the cultural differences between the japenese and Irish? And once you've given me that you can tell me what these huge differences are between the Welsh and English. Sorry but you are living in cloud cuckoo land, and please tell me what cultures you have actually experienced for any meaningful length of time!

by Guest Thu 22 Nov 2012, 9:48 pm

Where in Wales did you live Cyril?
Im from North East Wales right on the English border and around hear no one really cares about whos English or Welsh,not even much Welsh speakers around here,
but i can tell you im not even Welsh enough for areas like Anglesey ,Bangor,Canaerfon or Tywyn,
got in a few scrapes when i have been out in them areas! extremely narrow minded bunch.

by Cyril Thu 22 Nov 2012, 9:51 pm

viewtothegym wrote:Where in Wales did you live Cyril?
Im from North East Wales right on the English border and around hear no one really cares about whos English or Welsh,not even much Welsh speakers around here,
but i can tell you im not even Welsh enough for areas like Anglesey ,Bangor,Canaerfon or Tywyn,
got in a few scrapes when i have been out in them areas! extremely narrow minded bunch.

Aberystwyth, Carmarthen and Cardiff. Visited a lot of other places too. Yeah, some place are more 'local' then others but, as you say, even Welsh folk can find them a bit dodgy!

In general we're all pretty similar. No big cultural differences. Or if there are, they pass me by.

by lostinwales Thu 22 Nov 2012, 10:51 pm

RubyGuby wrote:There are english on here such as Lost in Wales who continue to just roll out welsh sterotypes - That is the most frightening form of racisim and naivity as the people doing it are actually unaware. Ignornace is one thing but some pseudo intelectualisation about feeling superior and sterotyping a whole race is something far more frightening.

There is nothing between the individuals in each nation yet people like those above like to exacerbate and stretch everything they can to reinforce their own warped beliefs - It's naive bigotry and dangerous territory and has no business in rugby. There are asxxxes from all nations; why can't people just accept that unfortunate fact of life.

Well I have lived in Wales a few years now and I came here with an open mind - why would I if I knew what to expect? But then you as I are entitled to an opinion. A lot of my opinion has - it must be said - been driven by living in a place that is just clique driven and not friendly (and yes it is a place with more than a fair share of English - usually with Welsh spouses). For the record I have met a few wonderful generous hearted Welsh people. I have also met with a fair few idiots whose attitudes to the English border on racism too. There are some really good things about living in Wales - but so often there just seems to be an official attitude of trying to talk up things which are just plain crap while ignoring those good things. That in my mind is the sign of an inferiority complex

by maestegmafia Thu 22 Nov 2012, 11:05 pm

Well said RG

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 23 Nov 2012, 7:56 am

maestegmafia wrote:I think there is as much a difference culturally, between the Welsh and English as there is between the Irish and the Japanese.

That's preposterous.

by maestegmafia Fri 23 Nov 2012, 8:14 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:I think there is as much a difference culturally, between the Welsh and English as there is between the Irish and the Japanese.

That's preposterous.

When you look at life's priorities as a comparison, I would certainly say the Welsh share far more with the French, Spanish or Italians than the English.

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 23 Nov 2012, 8:21 am

And your original assertion? Any evidence?

by maestegmafia Fri 23 Nov 2012, 8:26 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And your original assertion? Any evidence?

Assertion, hardly a declaration more of a flippant exaggerated statement to enforce an opinion. But yes I believe peoples fundamental values and aspirations vary massively throughout Britain.

by HERSH Fri 23 Nov 2012, 8:28 am

Is this article still going?

yawn!

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 23 Nov 2012, 8:30 am

Okay, how about this:

maestegmafia wrote:When you look at life's priorities as a comparison, I would certainly say the Welsh share far more with the French, Spanish or Italians than the English.

What are you basing that on?

by HERSH Fri 23 Nov 2012, 8:36 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Okay, how about this:

maestegmafia wrote:When you look at life's priorities as a comparison, I would certainly say the Welsh share far more with the French, Spanish or Italians than the English.

What are you basing that on?

What a load of Frak Bull Poopie Mae.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 23 Nov 2012, 8:44 am

HERSH wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Okay, how about this:

maestegmafia wrote:When you look at life's priorities as a comparison, I would certainly say the Welsh share far more with the French, Spanish or Italians than the English.

What are you basing that on?

What a load of Frak Bull Poopie Mae.

If you're not interested, don't read it Hersh. No need for that tripe

by **Biltong** Fri 23 Nov 2012, 8:53 am

I'll take a stab at why I think Wales and English fans are so "competitive"

Think about an older brother and his younger sibling, or let's rather say big brother and his smaller brother.

The smaller brother always foghts for accolades or achievements because the bigger brother gets it all.

So at some point the little brother manages to become competitive and that is when the issue really gets a life of it's own.

The satisfaction of beating the big brother brings with it a "cockiness" as the little brother and big brother now becomes aware of the inevitability of a "fair" competition.

and that is when it all starts.

Becuase the previously deemed nuisance has now become a threat, and both are aware of that fact.

by HERSH Fri 23 Nov 2012, 9:03 am

The only thing the Welsh have in common with the French, Spanish and Italians is that they don't have the stomach for a fight, as will be shown on Saturday. Very Happy

by HERSH Fri 23 Nov 2012, 9:04 am

English beer bellies 'Best in the World' thumbsup

by AlastairW Fri 23 Nov 2012, 9:17 am

viewtothegym wrote:Where in Wales did you live Cyril?
Im from North East Wales right on the English border and around hear no one really cares about whos English or Welsh,not even much Welsh speakers around here,
but i can tell you im not even Welsh enough for areas like Anglesey ,Bangor,Canaerfon or Tywyn,
got in a few scrapes when i have been out in them areas! extremely narrow minded bunch.

That's interesting View, as a home counties lad born & bred i don't sound exactley like Micheal McIntyre but not far from i'd say. Long story short, a mate went up to Bangor National Watersports Centre to qualify for Sailing/Yachting/Dinghy instruction and I travelled up to visit and we ended up out in Bangor and all the people i met there were a really good bunch.

Ended up far too smashed at a house party there and didn't end up on the receiving end of any flak, and i was expecting 'banter' to say the least.

by ultra Fri 23 Nov 2012, 9:20 am

maestegmafia wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And your original assertion? Any evidence?

Assertion, hardly a declaration more of a flippant exaggerated statement to enforce an opinion. But yes I believe peoples fundamental values and aspirations vary massively throughout Britain.

The last bit's true. Up here in the North East I've got far more in common with a scot or even a welshman than I have with some lilly livered, warm beer supping suvener.

It is, has always been and always will be a class thing. Just sometimes our bretheren in different parts of the isles find it easier to lump all us 'little englanders' together in one homogeouness lump!

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 23 Nov 2012, 9:23 am

Alastair, surely that story underlines how daft it is to generalise about people. Each town has its bigots, never mind each country, but they're usually the minority.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 23 Nov 2012, 9:25 am

In my experience there's about as much difference between the English and the Welsh as there is between New Zealanders and Australians (which isn't nearly as much as many NZers would like to think Wink

)

by Cyril Fri 23 Nov 2012, 9:31 am

maestegmafia wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:
maestegmafia wrote:I think there is as much a difference culturally, between the Welsh and English as there is between the Irish and the Japanese.

That's preposterous.

When you look at life's priorities as a comparison, I would certainly say the Welsh share far more with the French, Spanish or Italians than the English.

Pleeeease give examples!

Then maybe we can all work out where you are coming from.

by AlastairW Fri 23 Nov 2012, 9:32 am

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Alastair, surely that story underlines how daft it is to generalise about people. Each town has its bigots, never mind each country, but they're usually the minority.

Agreed completely LP. You do get a small amount of utter bell ends everywhere though, which tends to give the majority of a perceived 'group' a bad name. Some of the things i've heard other 'Englishman' say have really been head in hands moments.

For me, i tend to think that most people are quintessentially good. If i didn't i'd end up a bitter man, and that's no fun for anyone thumbsup

Saying that though, i did spend a year in Llanelli as an 8 year old with an English accent with one eye over my shoulder a lot Whistle

by Cyril Fri 23 Nov 2012, 9:48 am

maestegmafia wrote:
Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And your original assertion? Any evidence?

Assertion, hardly a declaration more of a flippant exaggerated statement to enforce an opinion. But yes I believe peoples fundamental values and aspirations vary massively throughout Britain.

They probably do, but not nation by nation as you are claiming.

by **Pal Joey** Fri 23 Nov 2012, 10:06 am

Ditto for Australians, Kiwi.

It's always the extreme 'characters' of each nation who like to make out we are worlds apart. Maybe that's true in some respects - but I believe in this day and age; whilst our genetic material may be diverse... it is part of human nature to assimilate and take on the characteristics of the prevailing socio-cultural-behavioural aspects of the sum total of the predominant group to a large degree when we gather together in a big city. If not, then you are either a avant-garde genius, a dreamer, a subversive or a spy! Smile

There will always be a counterpoint or undercurrent continually at play in a dynamic and open society, however we must all remember that what we think is 'our place' is always changing incrementally and society as a whole either rejects or embraces certain aspects of many cultures and belief systems - and that is kind of what defines us. (think of rap artists in London, Muslims in Melbourne, Turks in Berlin, etc...)

Heck, you may have even disliked one aspect of some culture a decade ago but over time this gets eroded and replaced by new influences or things which seem uneasy to cope with at first. Life never stands still and it's all really about how we adapt to these continual changes.

Sure, we each have our own cultural identities even within our own countries. Compare someone in Otago of say Scottish descent v a Polynesian living in Auckland, or some 'mixed bag' like me (Irish/NZ/German/Hungarian) living in Sydney... to another person living up in the Gulf country... we are worlds apart physically, culturally... in just about every possible way but we still may share some 'connection' and call ourselves Kiwis or Australians - but is my definition of 'Kiwi' or 'Australian' the same as the other's? Most likely not.

We all view each other from our own perceived framework of the current (dynamic) cultural situation and maybe it's an easy natural thing to consider ourselves as one. There are also lots of red-herrings and dead end tracks which 'society' may take; then realise change is necessary (learning!) and thus re-definition occurs again.

So, we are very similar in a way (more so with instant communications, news, travel, etc) but also we have our own swing on things as individuals cast down through time. I think most people do try to find this comfort in being part of a group of people who share common values and bonds but the closer you look - the more differences we will find. And some of those differences are significant but if we are rational; we try to play that aspect down and concentrate on the similarities.

by AlastairW Fri 23 Nov 2012, 10:15 am

Linebreaker wrote: .. it is part of human nature to assimilate and take on the characteristics of the prevailing socio-cultural-behavioural aspects of the sum total of the predominant group to a large degree when we gather together in a big city.

60%/40% - Nurture/Nature is the general social psychology view from empiricism. Some tool told me Psychology was an easy BSc; they lied. Or they didn't and i'm just stupid Wink

by **Pal Joey** Fri 23 Nov 2012, 10:23 am

Yes Alastair. Wink

Sorry, I missed out those dear folks living in isolation or in lush rural areas cut off by floods.

I recently went to a tiny little town in NSW and was quite surprised to see how up-to-date it was in certain ways. Italian coffee, .com ads everywhere, access to all the latest mod-cons, zumba classes, etc. It sort of struck me how small the world really is.

Also, I was in a supermarket in a suburb on the outskirts of Saigon a few years ago.
The check-out chick was too busy texting away to her buddy or whoever to notice my calm presence standing there waiting to be served (instantly!) with my few bottles of water on the counter. Whistle

She got a bit of a fright when she looked up a saw a foreigner - obviously a rarity in those parts. Very Happy

by AlastairW Fri 23 Nov 2012, 10:53 am

Going wildly off topic here LB, but in short, agreed - and i could probabley write another dissertation on it Very Happy

by **Pal Joey** Fri 23 Nov 2012, 11:01 am

So therefore in conclusion - England v Wales bickering = Insignificant.

Like a couple of ants arguing beside a wasp's nest. Fun to read though. Very Happy

by HammerofThunor Fri 23 Nov 2012, 11:14 am

Local dialects are an interesting factor (at least in England, not sure about others).

My granddad could speak the local dialect (North Staffs.) and his 'normal' speech was tending towards that end anyway. A friend of his would speak the dialect all the time and it was really difficult to understand the context due to not knowing every other word. My dad and uncles can speak some of it and their usual speech has the odd phrase. People of my generation don't really have it at all. It all comes down to isolation. Dialects come about because pockets of the English language have evolved in some separation. Various words used in the north staffs. dialect are effectively Anglo-Saxon words that have died out in modern English.

More modern generations have access to the global English language including those dialects/accents spoken in other English speaking countries (mostly US and Australia). We have also gone through schooling at a 'higher' level and been told how to speak 'proper' English (even though this is a complete invention). I had a teacher taking the urine out of me when I was 9 for having a Stoke accent and that in a school 3 miles outside of the Stoke district.

It's a real shame as the language is amazing tool for looking into the past and holds loads of information regarding the speakers history. The classic is the fact the words for farm animals come from the English, cow, pig, etc. The words for the meat you get from them come from the French, beef, ham, etc. I always wondered why we didn't eat cow steaks of pig rashers.

by **Biltong** Fri 23 Nov 2012, 11:16 am

Biltong wrote:I'll take a stab at why I think Wales and English fans are so "competitive"

Think about an older brother and his younger sibling, or let's rather say big brother and his smaller brother.

The smaller brother always foghts for accolades or achievements because the bigger brother gets it all.

So at some point the little brother manages to become competitive and that is when the issue really gets a life of it's own.

The satisfaction of beating the big brother brings with it a "cockiness" as the little brother and big brother now becomes aware of the inevitability of a "fair" competition.

and that is when it all starts.

Becuase the previously deemed nuisance has now become a threat, and both are aware of that fact.

Geez, not one person agrees with me. Shocked

by **Pal Joey** Fri 23 Nov 2012, 11:22 am

Fascinating stuff Hammer. Just like those Yorkshire farmers having a chat in "The Story of English".

I understand exactly where you're coming from Biltong. Thought it was a very good analogy. Ale

by HammerofThunor Fri 23 Nov 2012, 11:26 am

Biltong wrote:
Biltong wrote:I'll take a stab at why I think Wales and English fans are so "competitive"

Think about an older brother and his younger sibling, or let's rather say big brother and his smaller brother.

The smaller brother always foghts for accolades or achievements because the bigger brother gets it all.

So at some point the little brother manages to become competitive and that is when the issue really gets a life of it's own.

The satisfaction of beating the big brother brings with it a "cockiness" as the little brother and big brother now becomes aware of the inevitability of a "fair" competition.

and that is when it all starts.

Becuase the previously deemed nuisance has now become a threat, and both are aware of that fact.

Geez, not one person agrees with me.

Ben Foden already get there with this and was slated for being arrogant.

by gregortree Fri 23 Nov 2012, 11:30 am

Maes will always look to bicker with the English, because we are so fundamentally 'different' once you cross the Dyke ...apparently. Why do only Wales and England fans argue? - Page 4 1347041234

Why do only Wales and England fans argue? - Page 4 1347041234

by Luckless Pedestrian Fri 23 Nov 2012, 11:33 am

Shakespeare had a character in one of his plays called Fluellen. He's overly poetic in everything he says. Maybe that's something the English don't like about the Welsh: that we (some of us, anyway) tend to sing the praises of a player, a team, a performance, that in reality was just good and no more than that. We over-egg the pudding.

by gregortree Fri 23 Nov 2012, 11:37 am

Biltong:

agreed

Plus when England play Wales it fundamentally messes with Welsh concept of their own national identity... v threatening / emotional experience.

English a bit more relaxed about it, losing is an offpeess of course, but no biggy on the national id front.

by **Biltong** Fri 23 Nov 2012, 11:41 am

Thanks gregor, it might not be totally as I explained it, but I do think there is truth in it.

by Bathman_in_London Fri 23 Nov 2012, 11:41 am

Biltong you are probably right but it needs pople who are non residents in either place to say it to avoid an argument! I think in reality countries which are very similar try and exagerate differences or even just make them up to try and stand apart.

by gregortree Fri 23 Nov 2012, 11:42 am

Captain Fluellen, 'warrior' extraordinaire in Henry V.
Windy, self important waffler. Bill S certainly went for the stereotype in that character portrayal. 400 years before stereotyping was made illegal.

by Cyril Fri 23 Nov 2012, 11:46 am

Bathman_in_London wrote:I think in reality countries which are very similar try and exagerate differences or even just make them up to try and stand apart.

Good point. Feeling homogenised or perceiving a threat to identity can often mean that differences are overplayed or invented. It's where our myths and legends come from after all.

It also goes some way to explaining why a lot of ex-pats often act like a more exaggerated version of their stay-at-home brethren.

by maestegmafia Fri 23 Nov 2012, 12:13 pm

gregortree wrote:Maes will always look to bicker with the English, because we are so fundamentally 'different' once you cross the Dyke ...apparently.

GT that is not what i mean at all. I am saying there a fundamental differences and therefor we will unlikely always agree.

Don't misquote people mate...!

by Huwball Fri 23 Nov 2012, 12:30 pm

Slightly off topic, but when I was in Cuba on holiday a few years ago, the Canadians on holiday there couldn't tell my wife's or my accent from people from London and the surrounding "cocknyish" accents!!! Rolling Eyes

you can probably imagine that I was none too please about that one! furious

but a few beers later mug

and I'd persuded them of the finer things that it is to be Welsh Hug

So apart from general approaches to certain ways of life, from outside our own goldfish bowls, we obviously seem very similar to others Crying or Very sad

by gregortree Fri 23 Nov 2012, 12:44 pm

Ok Maes, no misquoting intended buddy.
Just cant see how the world suddenly changes at the border.
Your 'Japan' theme had me wondering where you were coming from with that one Headscratch

by Cyril Fri 23 Nov 2012, 1:00 pm

I still don't know what these 'fundamental' differences are.

Is it like jam or marmalade or HP sauce or red sauce?

You know, important stuff like that.

by maestegmafia Fri 23 Nov 2012, 4:22 pm

gregortree wrote:Ok Maes, no misquoting intended buddy.
Just cant see how the world suddenly changes at the border.
Your 'Japan' theme had me wondering where you were coming from with that one

People in Wales and England have a completely different outlook on life, I would say to use very basic similarities/generalisations, that the English, predominantly those of the Southern Eastern majority rather than those of the north or south west are far more like the Germans. The Welsh more like the French italian and Spanish.

by Bathman_in_London Fri 23 Nov 2012, 4:37 pm

Efficiency vs cafe culture? Please expand.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Fri 23 Nov 2012, 4:37 pm

maestegmafia wrote:
gregortree wrote:Ok Maes, no misquoting intended buddy.
Just cant see how the world suddenly changes at the border.
Your 'Japan' theme had me wondering where you were coming from with that one

People in Wales and England have a completely different outlook on life, I would say to use very basic similarities/generalisations, that the English, predominantly those of the Southern Eastern majority rather than those of the north or south west are far more like the Germans. The Welsh more like the French italian and Spanish.

I disagree there Maes.
As an example, the main street of Cardiff on a Saturday night looks a lot more like an English street than a Mediterranean one - the drinking culture is definitely northern European. Ditto eating habits.

How would you describe the respective Welsh and English "outlook on life"? Because based on the Welsh, English and Mediterranean types I've met, the Welsh have their fair share of what my high school social studies teacher used to call the "Protestant work ethic", like the English and Germans.

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