Ireland vs Argentina, Build-Up and Match Thread

[Notch]

First topic message reminder :

Ireland's date with destiny fast approaches. Win and we are absolutely certain of a Second Tier seeding at the 2015 RWC. Lose... and we are at the mercy of other results. Argentina sit just ahead of us in the World Rankings table in sixth and will also be looking to copper-fasten their spot. There'll be no love lost between the two sides; these games are always confrontational and Argentina have a fair bit of momentum coming into this with a very credible win in Cardiff. They failed to register a win in their debut rugby championship season but the lessons learned make them a much more dangerous beast than the naive bruisers we've faced in the past. They've kept all their passion and physicality, but now have a fine young generation of elusive and skillful backs and a much better balance to their game. Two of those- Horacio Agulla and Lucas Amorosino- have been omitted by Santiago Phelan for this game but watch out for Juan Jose Imhoff and Gonzalo Camacho.

http://www.planetrugby.com/story/0,25883,3885_8259078,00.html

Argentina: Marcos Ayerza, Marcelo Bosch, Maximiliano Bustos, Gonzalo Camacho, Manuel Carizza, Santiago Cordero, Agustín Creevy, Tomas Cubelli, Tomas De la Vega, Julio Farias Cabello, Juan Martín Fernandez Lobbe (capt), Santiago Fernandez, Francisco Gomez Kodela, Juan Cruz Guillemain, Eusebio Guinazu, Juan Martin Hernandez, Juan Jose Imhoff, Martín Landajo, Juan Manuel Leguizamon, Tomas Leonardi, Nahuel Lobo, Manuel Montero, Bruno Postiglioni, Federico Sanchez, Leonardo Senatore, Gonzalo Tiesu, Joaquin Tuculet, Tomás Vallejos, Nicolas Vergallo.

Talking of backs, Ireland coach Declan Kidney has a number of decisions to make after a much-changed backline ran rampant against against an admittedly under-strength and uncommitted Fijian side. Media and fans have been clamouring to see more of the likes of Craig Gilroy, Luke Marshall and Paddy Jackson but when he selects his side the Cork man has to counter-balance their obvious potential against the naivety of our last opponents and the value of experience. It would be no surprise if he mainly stuck to the conservative option; expect a few new faces but no radical, fundamental change. He'll be hoping Johnny Sexton recovers from an injury picked up in the warm-up on Saturday; he's scheduled to return to training on Thursday, the same day the team is named.

Teams to be edited in when they are announced. Discuss.

[rodders]

Very exciting back 3 if that gets the nod. Big question marks over the back row, half backs and midfield though.

That 9-12 axis needs to click as do D'arcy and Earls. Kidney has continually backed this group and they really need to start delivering.

Given the slick performances of the young guys against Fiji Kidney now has no more excuses if this lot don't produce some decent rugby here....assuming the pack doesn't get maramalized.....

Yes the amazing performances against the might of the Fiji Junior C's....

Well ROG managed to win himself a starting spot for the RWC QF on the strength of his performance against the mighty Russia so whats good for the goose is good for the goslings...

[GunsGerms]

I think its a nice idea that the IRFU has introduced a trophy for this match in memory of everybodys favorite Irish/Argentinian Guillermo (William) Brown.

http://www.irishrugby.ie/ireland/27764.php

However, I think Ireland are more concerned with IRB ranking points than winning the inaugral Copa Almirante Brown. Nice touch though. Vamos Irlanda!!

[Notch]

I've had to laugh at the new rugby writer in the Indo, Conor George. I saw the headline 'Bold Kidney Rolls the Dice' and I thought- wow. Is Thornely being beaten to the punch here? Does this guy have the inside track on more sweeping changes??

He goes on to report Kidney has boldly changed one player in the position (11) that sees the least ball on this Ireland team and otherwise kept the exact same 22.

[Mickado]

The next Saturday's match between Ireland and Argentina, will play for the "Admiral William Brown" cup.


Who was Admiral William Brown?

Here I leave a short review:
Admiral William Brown (also known in Spanish as Guillermo Brown).
Born in Foxford, County Mayo, Ireland on 22 June 1777 – Died 3 March 1857, was an Irish-born Argentine Admiral. Brown's victories in the Independence War, the Cisplatine War, and the Anglo-French blockade of the Río de la Plata earned the respect and appreciation of the Argentine people, and today he is regarded as one of Argentina's national heroes. Creator and first admiral of the country's maritime forces, he is commonly known as "the father of the Argentine Navy"

Cool. Are there many people with Irish roots in Argentina?

So I believe, the Hurling All stars toured there a few years ago, there’s a football team in BA called Valez Sarsfeild (gotta be some irish connection there too).

[pete (buachaill on eirne)]

Yeah it is a nice touch and we don't really get to play any of those kinda games really.

Deccie's last bit of silverware?

[GunsGerms]

Yes there are also quite a few place names that are Irish. Ranelagh in BA for example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranelagh,_Buenos_Aires

[Biltong]

Odd post biltong

If you think that post is odd, you should look inside my head, there are many, many voices on this one.

[MrsP]

Does anyone know how or why he went from Foxford to serve in the Argentine Navy?

[Mickado]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurlingham,_Buenos_Aires

[Rava]

Does anyone know how or why he went from Foxford to serve in the Argentine Navy?

I'm sure there was a woman involved somewhere. That's why most men leave the comfort of their home surroundings ....

[Standulstermen]

Conor George is essentially kidneys fluffer. He makes Farrelly look balanced.

[Argie fan]

Does anyone know how or why he went from Foxford to serve in the Argentine Navy?

Early life and career

Career as a merchant captain
William Brown was born in Foxford, County Mayo, Ireland on 22 June 1777. His family emigrated to Philadelphia, Pennsylvania in the United States, around 1786, when William was only nine years old. A short time after the arrival, the friend who had invited them out and offered them food and hospitality died of yellow fever, and several days later, William's father also succumbed to the same disease.
One morning while wandering along the banks of the Delaware River, he met the captain of a ship then moored in port. The captain inquired if he wanted employment and Brown answered yes. The captain then and there engaged him as a cabin boy, thereby setting him on the naval promotion ladder, where he worked his way to the captaincy of a merchant vessel.
Comparatively little is known of Brown's early life, and it has been suggested that he was illegitimate and took his mother's surname, and that his father's surname was actually Gannon.

Service during the Napoleonic Wars
After ten years on the Atlantic, where he developed his skills as a seaman and reached the level of captain, William Brown was press-ganged into a British ship and forced[citation needed] to serve the British crown. To press gang an American merchant navy captain in possession of a captains ticket was unheard of and entirely illegal.
During the Napoleonic wars, Brown is said to have escaped the galley, and scuttled the ship however, the French, not believing he had assisted them, took him prisoner and sent him to Lorient. On being transferred to Metz, he succeeded in escaping disguised in a French officer's uniform. He was recaptured, however, and then imprisoned in the fortress of Verdun. From there, in 1809, he escaped in the company of a British colonel named Clutchwell and eventually reached German territory.
Returning to England, he renounced his maritime career and, on 29 July 1809, he married Elizabeth Chitty, in Kent. Brown left the same year for the Río de la Plata on board Belmond and set himself up as a merchant in Montevideo, Uruguay.

Immigration to Argentina
Brown became part owner of a ship called Eliza, trading between Montevideo and Buenos Aires. When Eliza met with disaster and ran aground, Brown carried his cargo inland, and having disposed of it profitably, he next crossed the Andes to Chile. He had by now accumulated sufficient capital to enable him to purchase a schooner called Industria (Spanish for "Industry"), with which he opened a regular sailing-packet service between Uruguay and Argentina, the first such venture in South America. At this point, the Spanish colonial government stepped in, sensing a threat to its mercantile interests.

Commander-in-Chief of the Argentine Navy

Spanish ships destroyed Brown's schooner, and took drastic effects to nullify Argentina's attempts to defend her coasts against Spanish raiders. As a result of the incident, Argentina resolved to provide ships to protect her coasts and trade, with Brown being commissioned as a Lieutenant Colonel at the service of the Navy and appointed Commander-in-Chief of the Argentine fleet. This was following the challenge of Benjamin Franklin Seavers, registered as a Canadian merchant shipman, who relinquished his challenge when Brown's illegal press ganging earlier in his career came to light—this is believed to have tipped the decision in his favor to lead the flotilla. Seavers was American born. However, following the Jefferson reforms, like most merchant shipmen he became Canadian to avoid the double taxation system imposed on free enterprise.
The River Plate presented new opportunities for these captains of free enterprise. It was important to keep grain lines open to the north of the continent and the Spanish stood in the way. Captain Benjamin Franklin Seavers was Brown's second-in-command; he bravely led the first attack on the Spanish naval force opening a blockade and providing a path for the fleet to take to high water. He was also the first casualty of the battle. The news of the death of his friend and comrade drove Brown to launch a full attack on the Spanish as morale was low at the loss of this experienced officer so early in the engagement.
On 10 March 1814 the Hercules, joined by the Julieta, the Tortugas, the Fortunata and the felucca San Luis, faced the strong Spanish naval fleet commanded by Captain Jacinto de Romarate. The Spanish armada had six war ships, brigs, gunboats and a land battery with four cannons. There was a fierce combat after which the Hercules was stranded. American-born officer Benjamin Franklin Seaver, commander of the Julieta, was killed in action. The Hercules defended herself until 12 March at 10 am. As a result of this combat Commander Elias Smith, Lieutenant Robert Stacy and forty-five sailors were killed by grapeshot. There were about fifty wounded, which imposed a heavy task for the surgeon Bernard Campbell. The flagship received no less than eighty-two cannon blows and was repaired in the same war zone. Plumb plates were placed under the water line and the hull covered with leathers and tar. Henceforth it was nicknamed as 'the Black Frigate'. Richard Baxter, an English-born officer, was appointed as the new commander. On 17 March 1814 Brown attacked the island Martín García together with the Julieta and the Zephir. The Hercules engaged in combat with the Spanish warships Esperanza and Carmen.
A land attack was organized and at that moment William Brown ordered the fife and the drum to play "Saint Patrick’s Day in the Morning", which acted as a real booster among the troops.
On 20 April 1814 Montevideo was blocked by Argentine forces. There were no other major engagements until 14 May, when combat started but the sea conditions stopped a full attack.
Brown resolved to attack the formidable Spanish squadron with his ill-equipped flotilla of seven ships. On 8 March 1814, Brown took his ships to sea and within 48 hours was engaged in a furious battle. Land and sea forces saw action at Martín García island, a fortified island 20 mi (32 km) from Buenos Aires, known as "the Gibraltar of the River Plate", which commanded the access to the rivers Paraná and Uruguay. Brown failed to win possession of the island, and his flagship, Hercules, was badly battered and ran aground. Argentine forces attacked vigorously by land and sea on 14 March, and after a stiff contest succeeded in gaining possession of Martín García. The Spanish commander took his ships to Montevideo hotly pursued by Brown, whose naval forces were now increased by the addition of three armed merchant vessels.
The Spanish blockading squadron was now blockaded itself by Brown and his fleet. Montevideo was threatened with starvation. Brown, pretending to retreat, drew the Spanish forces away on 14 May from the protection of the fort guns, and two days afterwards on 16 May an engagement took place in the course of which Brown's leg was shattered by a cannon ball. Undeterred he continued to issue orders and direct operations while stretched on the deck of the Hercules. In a panic the Spanish squadron rushed for shelter to port, but three of their ships were captured. As a direct result of this engagement the Río de la Plata was freed from Spanish control and Montevideo fell to the Argentines.
Further information: Battle of Martín García (1814)
The battle continued for Brown well after Argentina claimed victory. He chased and hassled Spanish shipping from his waters much to the consternation of the Argentine investors of his ships. Stranded on an island and exhausted from fever, news arrived that he was to be court martialed on his return to Argentina. He returned to England where he fought a legal and political battle, which he won with the support of his allies. He returned to Argentina and had the Hercules gifted to him. William Brown took up farming and enjoyed 14 years of content and happy family life.

More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Brown_(admiral)

[the-goon]

If that is the team it means we have learnt nothing from the Fiji game then...

Fingers crossed we can beat them up front as we know our half backs don't work together and our centres can't/won't pass and eat up any space out wide = zero back play, zero line breaks, zero tries.

numbers 1-8 and Sexton (as in goal kicking), it's all on you guys!

[clivemcl]

gilroy is starting, watchin announcement, no sound though

[profitius]

gilroy is starting, watchin announcement, no sound though

Same here. Thats annoying.

[profitius]

Confirmed that Gilroy is the only change.

[clivemcl]

Confirmed

15 Zebo
14 Bowe
13 Earls
12 Darcy
11 Gilroy
10 Sexton
9 Murray
8 Heaslip
7 Henry
6 POM
5 McCarthy
4 Ryan
3 Ross
2 Strauss
1 Healy

16 Cronin
17 Kilkoyne
18 Bent
19 DOC
20 Henderson
21 Reddan
22 ROG
23 Ferg

[the-goon]

team just named and it is what Jerry said.

guessed it 2 weeks ago with just one error, Craig Gilroy instead of McFadden on the wing...

That is all the optimism knocked out of me now...

[WillyGilly]

Gilroy the only change. Sensible decision DK. Don't rock the boat. Now get those Ulstermen on a plane to Italy for the real game this weekend.

[MunsterMac]

Switch to low quality for sound.

[WillyGilly]

And so Gordon D'arcy goes on gathering international caps...

[Warthog]

And so Gordon D'arcy goes on gathering international caps...

So what?? Its generally accepted that he is still the best option at 12. Who would you have, dare I ask?

More of a concern is that waste of space O'Gara on the bench and Earls in the centre.

[rodders]

Delighted for Gilroy, very well deserved indeed. He'll likely only get 55-60minutes so I hope he makes them count.

Think Kidney should have been bolder and brought in Marshall, Jackson(on the bench) and perhaps Cave too. Henderson at 6....but hey ho you can't always get what you want.

Here's hoping for a much improved performance and hopefully the result will take care of itself.

[Warthog]

I wouldn't put any of the Ulster debutants in the centre with Earls who cant pass. Darce will be replaced but only when BOD is in there.

Argie is not Fiji.

[debaters1]

Wart, ha! Generally accepted he's the best 12. FFS. By one-eyed Leinster fans maybe. He did have a good game against the Boks, I cannot pretend otherwise, but Marshall & McFadden & even Downey are at least as good as he is and the former two are going to be in England in 2015, Gordan won't be.

As for Earls at 13, I have no problems or fears there. ROG on the bench I'll agree with you, but if he does come on and Sexton shifts to 12, we play better rugby. Funny that.

[clivemcl]

Hes stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Kidney knows that despite Darcy and Earls not being great, the majority of the public think they are great. So he picks them , knowing that if the team loses there will be an element of 'the players just didnt turn up'.

If he had picked too many young guys and lost, he would kop the full whack of the blame for selecting an inexperienced side.

Kidney is playing the game. Its just that the other game, the game of rugby, is neglected in doing so...

We can hope that our back three do exciting stuff on the counter i guess. But I doubt much exciting stuff will come through the midfield channel.

[Sin é]

And so Gordon D'arcy goes on gathering international caps...

So what?? Its generally accepted that he is still the best option at 12. Who would you have, dare I ask?

More of a concern is that waste of space O'Gara on the bench and Earls in the centre.

Considering that Sexton pulls a face that would stop a clock when asked to do anything, young Jackson is best kept well away from him for a while, or until at least Brian O'Driscoll is around to tell him to behave himself when being substituted.

[Keesie_kee]

Disappointed but not surprised. Marshall at 12 was a call that should have been made.

[Don Alfonso]

Yay Ireland.

<sigh>

[rodders]

Argie is not Fiji.

I'd rather lose playing some decent rugby than win with the same old negative dirge Boyne.

There's no point being seeded for the RWC if we're on a hiding to nothing when we get there.

D'arcy and Earls is a tried and failed combination...defensively vulnerable and devoid of any creativity whatsoever. If they play together 100 times it will still fail.

I just hope the back 3 get some ball because thats the chink of hope for us.

[rodders]

Question: When did D'arcy last play as well as Marshall did last week?
Answer: Against Scotland in 2004.

[Sin é]

Disappointed but not surprised. Marshall at 12 was a call that should have been made.

Not when you watch this. His tackling isn't good enough.

From about 30 secs. Luke Marshall & Cave are the Ulster centres involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkW4yZcwVwE (a few weeks back).

There is another clip of Luke falling off a tackle on Earls in another Munster game in Thomond Park.

[rodders]

Disappointed but not surprised. Marshall at 12 was a call that should have been made.

Not when you watch this. His tackling isn't good enough.

From about 30 secs. Luke Marshall & Cave are the Ulster centres involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkW4yZcwVwE (a few weeks back).

There is another clip of Luke falling off a tackle on Earls in another Munster game in Thomond Park.

Feic off Munster-boyne!

[Notch]

D'Arcy has never missed a tackle though

Marshall can still improve in defence. He might even be slightly unlucky this week, but be patient. He will be first choiice 12 for Ulster and Ireland by the end of this season and first choice for Ireland sometime in 2013.

[Warthog]

Question: When did D'arcy last play as well as Marshall did last week?
Answer: Against Scotland in 2004.

it was against Fiji.

And the answer you are looking for is against ASM in the HEC QF in B'deaux. I was there.

And dont dare anyone tell me that flippin' Fiji are a step up from ASM.

How did Marshall get on in Ulsters HEC run?

[Standulstermen]

Really uninspiring team selection. Delighted for Gilroy but it's a massive shambles that Trimble has been made the scapegoat for south Africa game. Much as I love D'arcy he isn't up to it anymore.

My real fear is that Gilroy gets the same ball trimble did in the SA game (5-10m behind the gainline) because he will get pummelled. We need to get him the ball in space (same with Zebo) and our 12 and 13 have proved incapable of doing that anytime they have played

[Sin é]

D'Arcy has never missed a tackle though

Marshall can still improve in defence. He might even be slightly unlucky this week, but be patient. He will be first choiice 12 for Ulster and Ireland by the end of this season and first choice for Ireland sometime in 2013.

I'd agree with that. His time will come soon enough.

[Warthog]

Delighted for Gilroy but it's a massive shambles that Trimble has been made the scapegoat for south Africa game.

Who made him a scapegoat?? You can only have one player on the bloody left wing !!!!

[ME-109]

Hes stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Kidney knows that despite Darcy and Earls not being great according to such learned people as myself and others on 606V2 despite the facts , the majority of the public think they are great.
.

Fixed that for you

[Sin é]

Really uninspiring team selection. Delighted for Gilroy but it's a massive shambles that Trimble has been made the scapegoat for south Africa game. Much as I love D'arcy he isn't up to it anymore.

My real fear is that Gilroy gets the same ball trimble did in the SA game (5-10m behind the gainline) because he will get pummelled. We need to get him the ball in space (same with Zebo) and our 12 and 13 have proved incapable of doing that anytime they have played

Please stop playing the victim card. Trimble is not being made a scapegoat. Its Gilroy, Trimble or Bowe. One of them had to be dropped.

Fergus McFadden gets to stay on the bench because he can cover centre & wing.

[Standulstermen]

Delighted for Gilroy but it's a massive shambles that Trimble has been made the scapegoat for south Africa game.

Who made him a scapegoat?? You can only have one player on the bloody left wing !!!!

The only change in the team is a massive clue. No other player had a poor game apparently

[rodders]

Question: When did D'arcy last play as well as Marshall did last week?
Answer: Against Scotland in 2004.

it was against Fiji.

And the answer you are looking for is against ASM in the HEC QF in B'deaux. I was there.

And dont dare anyone tell me that flippin' Fiji are a step up from ASM.

How did Marshall get on in Ulsters HEC run?

Well Marshalls 30 metre break and pass set up Pienaar for a bonus point try against Castres so I'd say his Heineken form is decent enough.

We all know Darcy will work his socks off in defence but when was the last time he created something in attack?... 2004 was a bit of an exageration, I apologise, but you are going back a few years... certainly pre 2010 and maybe even as far back as 2007 when he posed a serious attacking threat with the ball.

The real elephant in the room isn't Darcy though....its Earls....

[ME-109]

Question: When did D'arcy last play as well as Marshall did last week?
Answer: Against Scotland in 2004.

it was against Fiji.

And the answer you are looking for is against ASM in the HEC QF in B'deaux. I was there.

And dont dare anyone tell me that flippin' Fiji are a step up from ASM.

How did Marshall get on in Ulsters HEC run?

Well Marshalls 30 metre break and pass set up Pienaar for a bonus point try against Castres so I'd say his Heineken form is decent enough.

We all know Darcy will work his socks off in defence but when was the last time he created something in attack?... 2004 was a bit of an exageration, I apologise, but you are going back a few years... certainly pre 2010 and maybe even as far back as 2007 when he posed a serious attacking threat with the ball.

The real elephant in the room isn't Darcy though....its Earls....

Its not <insert name> its <insertmunsterplayer>....

[Warthog]

Delighted for Gilroy but it's a massive shambles that Trimble has been made the scapegoat for south Africa game.

Who made him a scapegoat?? You can only have one player on the bloody left wing !!!!

The only change in the team is a massive clue. No other player had a poor game apparently

Gilroy shone and deserved his spot. It was Trimble v Gilroy and Gilroy won.

Would you have preferred he kept Trimble?

[Warthog]

The real elephant in the room isn't Darcy though....its Earls....

A rather small elephant who cant pass...

[ME-109]

oh here we go...Rodders has been cowered by Boynes slagging off and is now doing the classic team up move......this could get interesting...

or not as the case may be...

[profitius]

Really uninspiring team selection. Delighted for Gilroy but it's a massive shambles that Trimble has been made the scapegoat for south Africa game. Much as I love D'arcy he isn't up to it anymore.

My real fear is that Gilroy gets the same ball trimble did in the SA game (5-10m behind the gainline) because he will get pummelled. We need to get him the ball in space (same with Zebo) and our 12 and 13 have proved incapable of doing that anytime they have played

I don't think Kidney would make a player a scapegoat. One of Kidney's problems is he is too loyal to the players.

[GunsGerms]

Horray, Conor Murray is in the team again!!

[Standulstermen]

Delighted for Gilroy but it's a massive shambles that Trimble has been made the scapegoat for south Africa game.

Who made him a scapegoat?? You can only have one player on the bloody left wing !!!!

The only change in the team is a massive clue. No other player had a poor game apparently

Gilroy shone and deserved his spot. It was Trimble v Gilroy and Gilroy won.

Would you have preferred he kept Trimble?

I would have preferred we change more than one player from the pile of turd that was our performance against The boks. Changing one player seems to burden them with that as opposed to admitting our massive failings in attack.

I'm not saying Trimble went well but to single him out is wrong. I'm delighted he will be playing for ulsters though along with Paul Marshall.

[Kingshu]

DK does the usual

Drop Trimble first chance he gets.

Keep a tired center partnership.

talking points for me was henderson not starting, think he deserved that.

Gilroy starting, it was 50/50 between him and Trimble.

Earls starting, he does every team DK picks as long as he's at least 75% fit, and D'arcy at 12?

I think Trimble may have started, if there had been a change somewhere else in the team, but he had to make a change.
Also while we are saying D'arcy is sound defensivly, do we need a defensive 12, against the hard hitting Springboks yes, against Argentina no, a creative 12 would be better. but Marshall Earls is a bit light weight, would have needed Marshall Cave, but that would have ment droping Earls, and DK won't do that, or move Earls to wing, and Gilroy doesn't get in?

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