Wales v Australia, 1/12/12, k/o 14:30. DISCUSSION/MATCH THREAD, PREDICTIONS POLL & TEAMS

[Guest]

First topic message reminder :

So, on the back of Wales's 10-33 defeat to New Zealand, and Australia's 19-22 victory over Italy, we look towards the final Autumn fixture for both teams.

Having played each other five times in the last twelve months, with the three Tests in the Summer ending 27-19, 25-23, and 20-19, this was, prior to the Autumn, the SANZAR scalp Wales must have felt they could realistically take on home soil.

How important is it for Wales to win? Must they win to hold onto their 'top-8' status, to try and avoid either England or Ireland, and equally so Argentina and Samoa, in their World Cup group? Or do they need to win to halt the decline since the Grand Slam success and the competitiveness of the Australia tour in the Summer? Do they need to win to have any hope of defending their 6 Nations crown? What effect does regional form have upon the way the players performed this Autumn? Can they beat Australia, and how? Should we look outside the current squad, especially in certain positions in the pack, due to injury and non-released players? If so, who do we bring in?




It has not gone to plan for Wales. Sitting in 4th spot on the iRB rankings following the Grand Slam success, they were in 6th place prior to the Autumn series and attempting to regain the coveted 4th to ensure a 'favourable' draw for the World Cup. However, they now sit tentatively in 7th position, only just ahead of Argentina and Samoa, both victorious at the Millennium Stadium, and a defeat to the Wallabies will mean they will have fallen from 4th to 9th following 7 straight Test defeats, and they will be in the third 'tier' for the World Cup seedings. This means they would face one of the first tier (New Zealand, South Africa, Australia, France) and one of the second tier (England, Ireland, Samoa, Argentina) in their group if they lose next Saturday.

This cannot be the position Wales expected to be in three weeks ago, yet having been deservedly beaten in the first two fixtures due to playing a pedestrian, 'territorially-minded' game-plan, they can have little complaint. It was only until the last half hour of the NZ game that Wales displayed any acceptance that their tactics were not conducive to success; you cannot score tries without the ball, and against the best teams you will be slaughtered if you kick down their throats. With New Zealand able to take it down a notch or two around the 50 minute mark, having being invited onto the ball, which they duly did, scoring 33 unanswered points, Wales finally played the running rugby they ought to be famed for, but it was too little too late.

Aside from the tactical noose that is evidently not working, or indeed not being implemented successfully and without error so that Wales can play the low-risk strategy Gatland favours, selection has been a major issue. For the Argentina game, with Ryan Jones and Dan Lydiate injured,
Josh Turnbull started at 6, with his club captain McCusker the back row cover on the bench. Both of these were selected ahead of their Scarlets teammate Aaron Shingler, who was playing exceptionally better rugby at regional level and, when called upon against New Zealand, performed admirably and effectively, something that cannot be said for Turnbull and McCusker. Mike Phillips, although excellent defensively, and a danger when sniping at close quarters, as he did yesterday, is woefully slow to the breakdown, especially when a linebreak is made, something in itself that is too infrequent for Wales. Tavis Knoyle is marginally better, although he himself, like the admission of Shingler, is arguably no longer the strongest scrum half for his region, with Gareth Davies in fine form. With Richie Rees, perhaps the best Welsh distributor after Dwayne Peel, no longer in Gatland's plans, and Rhys Webb ignored, there is decidedly little to choose from. Poor service, whoever it comes from, has been used poorly by Priestland, subject to ironic cheering from the crowd when successfully kicking to touch prior to Wales's first try against NZ and when replaced by James Hook. Priestland has been kicking almost persistently to the detriment of the team, but with the constant repetition of the mantra about 'territory' and "playing in the right areas" ('Re-boot the attack' section), the coaches must be pleased with his decision making, his only fault his execution. With James Hook having played 13 minutes all Series, and unavailable for the Australia game, and the extent of Dan Biggar's injury unknown at present, Priestland is likely to remain in the 10 shirt. Liam Williams performed admirably when he stepped up for George North, as did Scott Andrews for the injured Aaron Jarvis. The latter will likely start in Jarvis's absence, but with a reliance of Halfpenny's boot, Liam Williams will, in all probability, miss out. With French-based players (the excellent Charteris, Phillips, and the somewhat out of form Gethin Jenkins) missing out on selection due to the game falling outside the iRB window, and possibly English-based players too, the squad may be weakened somewhat. With AWJ unavailable, Bradley Davies floored, and uncertainty over Ian Evans, we are facing something of a second row crisis. However, for me, the best 15 we could produce, based on who is in the squad, is as follows. Feel free to add your own:

1. Paul James
2. Ken Owens
3. Scott Andrews
4. Luke Charteris
5. Ian Evans
6. Aaron Shingler
7. Sam Warburton
8. Toby Faletau
9. Tavis Knoyle
10. Dan Biggar
11. George North
12. Scott Williams
13. Jonathan Davies
14. Alex Cuthbert
15. Leigh Halfpenny

16. Matthew Rees
17. Ryan Bevington
18. Samson Lee
19. Ryan Jones
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Lloyd Williams
22. Rhys Priestland
23. Liam Williams

*If both starting second rows are unavailable, we are in something of a crisis. We would likely be forced to start with Ryan Jones at lock, and possibly Lou Reed too, with Aaron Shingler covering the position, and someone else coming in to fill a replacement position. But I do not know who.

This is far from the 15 I think is the 'best', but it is the best of what I can make with who is in the squad.

So on to Australia. I do not believe that they are a confident team, nowhere near the free-flowing, off the cuff team of two years ago, with key players such as David Pocock struggling (though the excellent Michael Hooper has stepped up in his absence) and James Horwill suffering with injury. At the end of a long tour, Wales have to see them as beatable. Yet, on the back the tightest of wins against Italy, they will surely be fully prepared, and any expectations of catching them dreaming of the sunny shores of home will most probably be misplaced, and punished by the men in gold. Berrick Barnes is a key man, who will punish Wales on the scoreboard in a manner Priestland chose not to in the first half against New Zealand; any mistakes will be chipped away 3 by 3, and if we kick to the Wallabies three quarters, they have the running ability to cut us to shreds. Yet the size of our midfield ought to be an asset, and if we keep the ball in hand, Scott Williams and Jon Davies are capable of both creating and scoring tries. I feel their selection over the injury prone Jamie Roberts, who has been ineffective, and needs time away from international rugby to regain form and develop his game from simply being a human wrecking ball, is imperative to Wales playing a quicker game, less reliant on their formulaic and obvious ball carriers, something Samoa said they were all too aware of. The England-Australia game was tight, but winnable for England, a team who I think are about on a par with Wales, both playing their own brand of tactically poor rugby that does their talented players a disservice (no Mike Phillips pun intended). In this sense, Wales can and should win, regardless of their form in the previous 3 games. It's imperative for World Cup rankings, but perhaps more importantly, to stop the slide and finally get the win, and psychological boon that comes with it, that they ought to have had in the Summer, but for some silly mistakes.

Wales team to face Australia:
15. Leigh Halfpenny
14. Alex Cuthbert
13. Jonathan Davies
12. Jamie Roberts
11. Liam Williams
10. Rhys Priestland
9. Mike Phillips

1. Gethin Jenkins
2. Matthew Rees
3. Scott Andrews
4. Luke Charteris
5. Ian Evans
6. Aaron Shingler
7. Sam Warburton (capt)
8. Toby Faletau.

Bench:
16. Ken Owens
17 Ryan Bevington
18. Samson Lee
19. Ryan Jones
20. Justin Tipuric
21. Tavis Knoyle
22. Dan Biggar
23. Scott Williams

Australia team to face Wales:

15. Berrick Barnes
14. Nick Cummins
13. Adam Ashley-Cooper
12. Ben Tapuai
11. Drew Mitchell
10. Kurtley Beale
9. Nick Phipps

1. Benn Robinson
2. Tatafu Polota Nau
3. Ben Alexander
4. Kane Douglas
5. Nathan Sharpe (capt)
6. Scott Higginbotham
7. David Pocock
8.Wycliff Palu

Bench:
16. Stephen Moore
17. James Slipper
18. Sekope Kepu
19. Dave Dennis
20. Michael Hooper
21. Brendan McKibbin
22. Mike Harris
23. Digby Ioane.

[samuraidragon]

Frankly I think it's a game too far - when we don't have an established second row to field, and we may be down to a rookie 10.

[Guest]

I seem to remember Scott Williams putting in a shift at 10 in one of the World Cup warm-ups. Or is my memory playing tricks?

If I remember rightly, it was after Morgan Stoddart was injured, we had no flyhalf cover, Scott Williams came on and filled in the 10 slot with Priestland at fullback, but I'm pretty sure during attack Priestland was acting first receiver.

[OzT]

It is a tough game for both sides, but also for the kiwis too. As for Wales not having an established 2nd row, the wobblies didn't have a 2nd row from start of their season, calling up Sharpe from retirement.

At the end of a long season for us and the kiwis, obviously no one can field their best sides, but it is also an excellent chance for everyone, home countries also, to try out new players, combinations, and I think this last rugby weekend, well last for us antipodean supporters only, promises to be a great event.

[wales606]

I seem to remember Scott Williams putting in a shift at 10 in one of the World Cup warm-ups. Or is my memory playing tricks?

If I remember rightly, it was after Morgan Stoddart was injured, we had no flyhalf cover, Scott Williams came on and filled in the 10 slot with Priestland at fullback, but I'm pretty sure during attack Priestland was acting first receiver.

Stoddart was injured before the WC. I thought it was against Namibia in the second half?

[doctornickolas]

I think Wales just have too many injuries and unavailable players to win this.

If Ian Evans and Ryan Jones make it then that will be a bit of comfort but we have just lost too many players.

We are in to 4th and 5th choice tightheads, 3 second rows missing, our best hooker injured, our best loosehead back to his club, our best 6 injured and also a further 2 injured in this campaign.

It will be a patchwork pack.

In the backs we are without Hook and probably Biggar.

Not sure on the injury news for Ian Evans, Ryan Jones, North or Jamie Roberts but hopefully at least the 2 forwards will be available or we are in serious trouble.

And to top it off it looks like Australia's captain fantastic will be available for his first game of the Autumn.

[Guest]

I think Wales just have too many injuries and unavailable players to win this.

If Ian Evans and Ryan Jones make it then that will be a bit of comfort but we have just lost too many players.

We are in to 4th and 5th choice tightheads, 3 second rows missing, our best hooker injured, our best loosehead back to his club, our best 6 injured and also a further 2 injured in this campaign.

Gethin is still our best looshead, regardless of current form, and do you really think Hibbard is better than both Rees and Owens?

[Guest]

I seem to remember Scott Williams putting in a shift at 10 in one of the World Cup warm-ups. Or is my memory playing tricks?

If I remember rightly, it was after Morgan Stoddart was injured, we had no flyhalf cover, Scott Williams came on and filled in the 10 slot with Priestland at fullback, but I'm pretty sure during attack Priestland was acting first receiver.

Stoddart was injured before the WC. I thought it was against Namibia in the second half?

I'm pretty sure it was against England in the warmup games, the game Stoddart broke his leg

[doctornickolas]

I think Wales just have too many injuries and unavailable players to win this.

If Ian Evans and Ryan Jones make it then that will be a bit of comfort but we have just lost too many players.

We are in to 4th and 5th choice tightheads, 3 second rows missing, our best hooker injured, our best loosehead back to his club, our best 6 injured and also a further 2 injured in this campaign.

Gethin is still our best looshead, regardless of current form, and do you really think Hibbard is better than both Rees and Owens?

Yes I do think he is. Matthew Rees is showing his age now and whilst a decent scrummager he is offering less and less around the field. Owens is behind Rees at the scarlets. Paul James is our best loosehead at the moment. Gethin has only played cameos but has not been very impressive at the moment and is suffering being second choice to Andrew Sheridan (yes Andrew carthorse Sheridan) at Toulon.

[maestegmafia]

I agree that Hibbard and james have been the two best in their position at club level this season.

[Smirnoffpriest]

Does anyone know when the team will be announced?

[ScarletSpiderman]

Does anyone know when the team will be announced?

Tomorrow dinner time I think.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I seem to remember Scott Williams putting in a shift at 10 in one of the World Cup warm-ups. Or is my memory playing tricks?

If I remember rightly, it was after Morgan Stoddart was injured, we had no flyhalf cover, Scott Williams came on and filled in the 10 slot with Priestland at fullback, but I'm pretty sure during attack Priestland was acting first receiver.

Stoddart was injured before the WC. I thought it was against Namibia in the second half?

I'm pretty sure it was against England in the warmup games, the game Stoddart broke his leg

Yeah it was England, the England players stopped to signal for the medics. Kid missed out on the trip of a lifetime.

[Cyril]

Does anyone know when the team will be announced?

Tomorrow dinner time I think.

Hmmm. Do you have dinner at lunchtime or teatime?

[OzT]

well it'd be at dinner time of course, else it would have been called tea, or lunch..

Geeesh!!

[Smirnoffpriest]

Cheers for the info - fingers crossed all the doubtful players pull through, as we are on our knees a bit (well definately crouching!)

[maestegmafia]

Aye priest I couldn't agree more. Especially Biggar. God knows what they are planning to do if we only have one flyhalf in the 23 should RP get injured.

[bedfordwelsh]

A prop is (or should be) first and foremost picked for his ability to scrummage and for that alone James has been our best loosehead for sometime now.

What Jenkins brought to the table was his all round workrate but his scrummaging alone has never been his strong point.

[bedfordwelsh]

Aye priest I couldn't agree more. Especially Biggar. God knows what they are planning to do if we only have one flyhalf in the 23 should RP get injured.

As mentioned previously I am guessing Scott Williams will have to cover.

[Guest]

My prediction
Wales around 15 points
Australia around 25 points

[maestegmafia]

Lets sincerely hope not View...!

[maestegmafia]

Australia flanker David Pocock is poised for a return from injury against Wales in the final autumn international at the Millennium Stadium.

A calf muscle strain stopped Pocock from facing France and England earlier in November, having been sidelined since August after knee surgery. Michael Hooper has been outstanding in his absence and could retain his place.

"He [Pocock] is quite a bit of a talisman for them," said Wales forwards coach Robin McBryde.

"To have him back in the team is going to raise you again.

"He is akin to [New Zealand captain] Richie McCaw - the influence he has on the All Blacks with regards his leadership. So he is going to play a vital role for Australia on the weekend

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/20526681

[bedfordwelsh]

Yh cheers for that Maes lol

[maestegmafia]

Planet Rugby's Charteris paying respect to Sharpes grande finale


Wales lock Luke Charteris has praised his Australian opponent Nathan Sharpe ahead of this weekend's clash in Cardiff on Saturday.

Sharpe is set to play his final match before retirement against Wales, bringing to a close an outstanding career for Australia and one for which Charteris has the upmost respect.

"Is it his last game this time? He has retired a few times and keeps coming back!" said Charteris.

"Seriously, I've been lucky enough to go up against him a few times, and he is a quality player.

"He really is one of the standout second-rows of the last 10 or 15 years, and if this is his last game then he has certainly earned his rest."

[Knowsit17]

Important Announcement

I have it on positive information that some of the Aussie squad hit the town last night for a pishup. My flatmate was out and she met them at Vodka Revolution. They even took pictures, she has one posing with Tatafu Polota-Nau

At least around 7 of them. If there's any random claim you can believe I promise you it's this one!

[Guest]

Important Announcement

I have it on positive information that some of the Aussie squad hit the town last night for a pishup. My flatmate was out and she met them at Vodka Revolution. They even took pictures, she has one posing with Tatafu Polota-Nau

At least around 7 of them. If there's any random claim you can believe I promise you it's this one!

Won't make a difference, Berrick Barnes spent all night with his missus at her bed side,whilst having the stress of er giving birth to their premature son, he then had to take a flight and play Wales within eight hours,
which he did and he again schooled us!
Some alcohol in the system won't slow the Aussies down.

[maestegmafia]

model pros the ozzies

[OzT]

least they have sense to stay out of the walkie.... for now

[samuraidragon]

Saw the team up on Wales Online. No Ryan, no Biggar, Roberts back. Looks underpowered and lacking in form and creativity. Hard to see past an Oz win, if this is the selection.

[maestegmafia]

WALES v AUSTRALIA

15 Leigh HALFPENNY (CARDIFF BLUES - Cap No 1,060)? DoB: 22.12.88. 5'10" / 1.77m. 13st 6lbs / 85kgs? International record: 38 caps (W 17, L 21; 208 pts - 11T, 12C, 43PG)

14 Alex CUTHBERT (CARDIFF BLUES - Cap No 1,089)? DoB: 05.04.90. 6'6" / 1.98m. 16st 3lbs / 103kgs? International record: 12 caps (W 5, L 7; 25 pts - 5T)

13 Jonathan DAVIES (SCARLETS - Cap No 1,066)? DoB:05.04.88. 6'1" / 1.86m. 16st 8lb / 105kgs? International record: 30 caps (W 16, L 14; 40 pts - 8T)

12 Jamie ROBERTS (CARDIFF BLUES - Cap No 1,057)? DoB: 08.11.86. 6'4" / 1.93m. 17st 5lbs / 110kgs? International record: 47 caps (W 23, L 24; 25 pts - 5T)

11 Liam WILLIAMS (SCARLETS - Cap No 1,095)? DoB: 09.04.91. 6'2" / 1.88m. 13st 6lbs / 86kgs? International record: 2 caps (W 1, L 1)

10 Rhys PRIESTLAND (SCARLETS - Cap No 1,080)? DoB: 09.01.87 1.82m / 6'0". 15st 0lbs / 95kgs? International record: 21 caps (W 11, L 10; 53 pts - 1T, 12C, 8PG)

9 Mike PHILLIPS (BAYONNE - Cap No 1,022)? DoB: 29.08.82. 6'3" / 1.91m. 15st 10lb / 101kgs? International record: 71 caps (W 33, L 36, D 2; 40 pts - 8T)

1 Gethin JENKINS (TOULON - Cap No 1,006)? DoB: 17.11.80. 6'2" / 1.88m. 19st 1lb / 121kgs? International record: 93 caps (W 41, L 50, D 2; 20 pts - 4T)

2 Matthew REES (SCARLETS - Cap No 1,033)? DoB: 09.12.80. 6'0" / 1.83m. 17st 1lbs / 108kgs? International record: 56 caps (W 23, L 32, D 1; 10 pts - 2T)

3 Scott ANDREWS (CARDIFF BLUES - Cap No 1,083)? DoB: 01.08.89. 6'2" / 1.88m. 18st 7lbs / 117kgs? International record: 4 caps (L 4)

4 Ian EVANS (OSPREYS - Cap No 1,045)? DoB: 04.10.84. 6'8" / 2.04m. 18st 3lbs / 116kgs? International record: 25 caps (W 12, L 12, D 1; 5 pts - 1T)

5 Luke CHARTERIS (PERPIGNAN - Cap No 1,030)? DoB: 09.03.83. 6'9" / 2.06m. 19st 10lbs / 125kgs? International record: 39 caps (W 18, L 21)

6 Aaron SHINGLER (SCARLETS - Cap No 1,090)? DoB: 07.08.87. 1.96m / 6'5". 16st 8lbs / 105kgs? International record: 3 caps (W 2, L 1)

7 Sam WARBURTON (CARDIFF BLUES, CAPTAIN - Cap No 1,070)? DoB: 05.10.88. 1.88m / 6'2". 16st 4lbs / 103kgs? International record: 33 caps (W 15, L 18; 10 pts - 2T)

8 Toby FALETAU (NEWPORT GWENT DRAGONS - Cap No 1,082)? DoB: 12.11.90. 1.87m / 6'2". 17st 5lbs / 110kgs? International record: 20 caps (W 10, L 10 - 2T)

REPLACEMENTS

16 Ken OWENS (SCARLETS - Cap No 1,088)? DoB: 03.01.87. 6'1" / 1.86m. 17st 3lbs / 109kgs? International record: 9 caps (W 5, L 4)

17 Ryan BEVINGTON (OSPREYS - Cap No 1,081)? DoB: 9.12.88. 6'0"/1.82m. 17st 10lbs / 112kgs? International record: 8 caps (W 3, L 5)

18 Samson LEE (SCARLETS - Uncapped)? Dob: 30.11.92. 1.80m / 5'11". 18st 2lbs / 115kgs? International record: Uncapped

19 Ryan JONES (OSPREYS - Cap No 1,029)? DoB: 13.03.81. 6'5" / 1.96m. 17st 12lbs / 113kgs? International record: 69 caps (W 34, L 33, D 2; 10 pts - 2T)

20 Justin TIPURIC (OSPREYS - Cap No 1,087)? DoB: 06.08.89. 1.88m / 6'2" 15st 13lbs / 101kgs? International record: 9 caps (W 4, L 5)

21 Tavis KNOYLE (SCARLETS - Cap No 1,076)? DoB: 02.06.90. 6'1" / 1.85m. 14st 5lbs / 91kgs? International record: 9 caps (W 3, L 6)

22 Dan BIGGAR (OSPREYS - Cap No 1,063)? DoB: 16.10.89. 6'2" / 1.88m. 14st 1lbs / 89kgs? International record: 11 caps (W 5, L 5, D 1; 54 pts - 9C, 12PG)

23 Scott WILLIAMS (SCARLETS - Cap No 1,084)? DoB: 10.10.90. 6'0" / 1.83m. 15st 13lbs / 101kgs? International record: 16 caps (W 8, L 8; 30 pts - 6T)

[TycroesOsprey]

Pretty much as expected with the exception of Shingler in the starting XV instead of on the bench. Jamie Roberts is lucky and needs a big game to justify his selection. A bit harsh on Scott Wiliams and especially Liam Williams who drops out of the team altogether after an excellent display last week.

[Guest]

Tycroes, Liam Wlliams is starting at 11.

[TycroesOsprey]

teach me to just skim read and assume north was in.

[Guest]

Australia team now included in the original post. Interesting to see Ioane on the bench, and Pocock is selected as expected.

[samuraidragon]

Australia team now included in the original post. Interesting to see Ioane on the bench, and Pocock is selected as expected.

Good-looking team. Whatever the result, it should be an entertaining match, with plenty of tries. We've gone for a mobile, but lightweight backrow. Liam and 1/2p are good broken field runners. Vs. England, Beale & Barnes put on a masterclass of tactical kicking, and Cummins was like a blonde version of Cuthbert.

Bring it on.

[OzT]

Happy to see Drew starting, his 1st game this year I think, guess they're looking at his experience, plus he is quite a good runner too. May miss Ioane's defense but we'll see, and good ole Cummins as a back up if we need some fizz, and Harris I guess for defense plus kicking too on the bench.

[wales606]

No Biggar

WERE DOOMED

[glamorganalun]

Now I know the team, Australia by 16+, if Biggar started the game could be very close. If Wales lose as predicted, I believe it is time for a change of management but it will not happen. The good news, I did not waste £60 on a ticket to see Wales get hammered again. The team selection is not good for the Lions as Preistland and a few other Wales favourites of Gatland will be selected.

[Guest]

Priestland's going to struggle to get selected ahead of one of the top 4 performers in world rugby over the last 12 months...

In all seriousness, aside from Jamie Roberts, it's the best we could field. However poor Priestland played, it would have been a big ask to expect Biggar, who presumably hasn't trained much in the last two weeks, to start the game. Much rather have him come off the bench and win us the game.

[wales606]

Priestland's going to struggle to get selected ahead of one of the top 4 performers in world rugby over the last 12 months...

In all seriousness, aside from Jamie Roberts, it's the best we could field. However poor Priestland played, it would have been a big ask to expect Biggar, who presumably hasn't trained much in the last two weeks, to start the game. Much rather have him come off the bench and win us the game.

They will put Biggar on at 75 minutes when the game is lost

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Priestland's going to struggle to get selected ahead of one of the top 4 performers in world rugby over the last 12 months...

In all seriousness, aside from Jamie Roberts, it's the best we could field. However poor Priestland played, it would have been a big ask to expect Biggar, who presumably hasn't trained much in the last two weeks, to start the game. Much rather have him come off the bench and win us the game.

They will put Biggar on at 75 minutes when the game is lost

How many of the Wales Aus encounters over the last 14 months were over by 75 minutes? Theres always a chance for a super sub to come on and blow it for them.

[samuraidragon]

Now I know the team, Australia by 16+, if Biggar started the game could be very close. If Wales lose as predicted, I believe it is time for a change of management but it will not happen. The good news, I did not waste £60 on a ticket to see Wales get hammered again. The team selection is not good for the Lions as Preistland and a few other Wales favourites of Gatland will be selected.

I think if we lose by that kind of margin - making 9 losses in a row vs. SH opposition and a worse record vs. Oz than all the other home nations - there will be concerns about Gatland's capability, as Lions coach, against non 6-N opposition.

Is Gatland a great coach who has taken a bunch of perennial underperformers and won 2 slams with them?

Or is he an average coach who has been blessed with the most talented group of players we have had since the 70s, but has failed to get the best out of them at the highest level?

[munkian]

Bit of column A, bit of column B...

[bedfordwelsh]

Priestland's going to struggle to get selected ahead of one of the top 4 performers in world rugby over the last 12 months...

In all seriousness, aside from Jamie Roberts, it's the best we could field. However poor Priestland played, it would have been a big ask to expect Biggar, who presumably hasn't trained much in the last two weeks, to start the game. Much rather have him come off the bench and win us the game.

Why would it have been a big ask for Biggar to start, what if Priestland gets injured inside the first minute or so like the players last week. He would still have to play virtually a whole game

[maestegmafia]

At least Biggar made the bench.

[Guest]

Priestland's going to struggle to get selected ahead of one of the top 4 performers in world rugby over the last 12 months...

In all seriousness, aside from Jamie Roberts, it's the best we could field. However poor Priestland played, it would have been a big ask to expect Biggar, who presumably hasn't trained much in the last two weeks, to start the game. Much rather have him come off the bench and win us the game.

They will put Biggar on at 75 minutes when the game is lost

Sadly, that's what will probably happen. The inability, of both players and coaches, to accept the gameplan isn't working, and adopt a different approach, has been staggering this Autumn; it was sort of understandable between late '09-early '11, when the players we were fielding hadn't performed well for a while, and there was a sense of staleness about the squad. But coming on the back of an encouraging World Cup and then Grand Slam, there seems no reasonable explanation.

Is Gatland a great coach who has taken a bunch of perennial underperformers and won 2 slams with them?

Or is he an average coach who has been blessed with the most talented group of players we have had since the 70s, but has failed to get the best out of them at the highest level?

The first GS came from giving talented players a kick up the @rse when they had been underperforming for two seasons by providing them with a professional, more brutal, standard. It was slightly fortuitous, coming on the back of a rubbish run of results, but then the World Cup performances also occurred after similar circumstances. The worst 6N under Gatland's reign the led to us missing out on a World Cup final by the slightest of margins.

What was encouraging was how Wales, still with a relatively young squad, won the 6N when they were fully expected to, and despite performances becoming less impressive throughout the competition, culminating in a nervy win against a poor French side, they ground out victory. Even going to Australia, when I think most people felt at least one win was essential for progression, and a series win in the SH no longer an impossibility, when they came back with three defeats, it was almost excusable due to the manner in which they lost: they could easily have won all three. However, there was less running of the ball, and the territorial kicking game was turned to too often.

Now, when you take this Autumn Series, it seems any notion of consistent progression to the World Cup in 2015 has gone. We've slipped back into old habits of boom and bust rugby. Gatland has to be responsible for the gameplan and tactics, when they are successful, such as at the World Cup, with the mentality being to hold the ball and trust yourselves in possession until scoring opportunities become available, and when they are not successful, such as the kicking off first phase ball when in the opposition's half, as we have seen this Autumn. I've defended him during pretty much all of his tenure, though there have been a few issues; namely with selection, a prime example being bringing Henson back into the squad when Jon Davies had been ignored for a good twelve months, Henson having played basically no rugby in two years prior to that. There's also been his tendency towards favouritism, with people like Huw Bennett and Mike Phillips prime examples of how he wasn't picking on form for a good 6 to 12 months at a time. And there's also his ideology about how to play the game, which I believe is too conservative and, ultimately, aside from the fact it doesn't come naturally to the Welsh players, is less likely to win rugby matches than by having better ball skills and playing quicker than your opponent. Shane saved so many games that, perhaps, Gatland would not have lasted to the World Cup '11. He's also, I feel. too reliant on 'stats', although this is something of guesswork due to not actually being on the inside of the camp. He's too reliant on what the laptops are telling him about the game than simply by watching it and using human intuition; of course there's a place for stats, but the balance isn't right, from an outside perspective. However, believe the infrastructure he is laying down will benefit Welsh rugby for the next 5-10 years.

(Yes, that is the long way to say what munkian said...)

Why would it have been a big ask for Biggar to start, what if Priestland gets injured inside the first minute or so like the players last week. He would still have to play virtually a whole game

Yeah, I actually agree, if you're fit to sit on the bench you're fit to start. I'm just clutching at straws, and trying to be positive, mentally, for Rhys' sake.

Most obviously, in the Summer, Warburton went on tour and started when clearly not match fit, as has been the case with many other 'key' players during Gatland's tenure. Priestland, therefore, has to be considered one of these key players, otherwise Dan Biggar would surely have started. Also, Priestland hasn't actually played that badly; I did think the NZ game was his worst performance, but that was due to his decision to kick first phase ball almost every time, something Gatland later came out and indirectly defended. So, either Gatland has learnt not to berate players in the public eye and to the media, and Priestland has been criticised behind closed doors and is now being given another chance, or Gatland isn't displeased with Priestland to the extent that he thinks Biggar would make a better contribution. Which is perhaps a little worrying.

[Morgannwg]

I can't see why Biggar didn't start. They would have nothing to lose given the way RP has played, but they could gain. Scott Williams should started too. The rest is pretty much as expected.

Does anyone think Aus delayed their team announcement by 2 hours so they could see what back-row we put out? They've gone for heavyweight back-rowers, unlike the two fetchers they have been starting with.

[glamorganalun]

Now I know the team, Australia by 16+, if Biggar started the game could be very close. If Wales lose as predicted, I believe it is time for a change of management but it will not happen. The good news, I did not waste £60 on a ticket to see Wales get hammered again. The team selection is not good for the Lions as Preistland and a few other Wales favourites of Gatland will be selected.

I think if we lose by that kind of margin - making 9 losses in a row vs. SH opposition and a worse record vs. Oz than all the other home nations - there will be concerns about Gatland's capability, as Lions coach, against non 6-N opposition.

Is Gatland a great coach who has taken a bunch of perennial underperformers and won 2 slams with them?

Or is he an average coach who has been blessed with the most talented group of players we have had since the 70s, but has failed to get the best out of them at the highest level?

I think he should take the credit for picking almost a complete Ospreys team against England in 2008 as they played his style of rugby i.e., like Wasps.

Currently only one player from the Ospreys is in the starting line up they are the current RABO winners from last season. Our team is full of losers, Cardiff Blues are having a terrible season as are the Dragons and if the Scarlets meet anybody with a pack they roll over. The Scarlets are playing better with Preistland away with Wales. Wales are playing with G Jenkins and Phillips who are not performing for their clubs hence they are available for Wales unlike Hook. Nobody in France are mad enough to chase our current 10 but are very interested in Biggar says a lot.

[maestegmafia]

I know I am the only man in Wales to think so but I disagree that Priestland is the fault of the team, he is being made a scapegoat for inept performance all over the pitch.

Watching the game last week the biggest difference in attack between the two teams was the lines ran offered not by the backs but the forwards. Read and Whitelock took lines close the ruck that any world class back would be insanely jealous of.

We need that, we need a more consistent scrum we need amore competitive line out.

What is hardly making a difference is RP missing two penalties to touch by inches. The first looked like it was good, even the touch judge was indecisive and replays show he was bold in his decision.

[ScarletSpiderman]

I know I am the only man in Wales to think so but I disagree that Priestland is the fault of the team, he is being made a scapegoat for inept performance all over the pitch.
Watching the game last week the biggest difference in attack between the two teams was the lines ran offered not by the backs but the forwards. Read and Whitelock took lines close the ruck that any world class back would be insanely jealous of.

We need that, we need a more consistent scrum we need amore competitive line out.

What is hardly making a difference is RP missing two penalties to touch by inches. The first looked like it was good, even the touch judge was indecisive and replays show he was bold in his decision.

I think you wil find that you are far from being alone

http://www.scarletfever.org/forum/well-done-rhys_topic35574.html

[maestegmafia]

I know I am the only man in Wales to think so but I disagree that Priestland is the fault of the team, he is being made a scapegoat for inept performance all over the pitch.

I think you wil find that you are far from being alone

http://www.scarletfever.org/forum/well-done-rhys_topic35574.html

Thank god ...! Cheers SS

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